This style toolholder has been around since the late 1800's, according
to what I read in a forum. Universally approved - "I'll never go back"
they say. Yet, not that widely used, I think. A few make their own, as
I did. A few buy the $140 - $150 commercial one (Eccentric Engineering).

I think that these could be hugely popular at the right price. $50?
And I think that they could be produced very cheaply on a CNC mill. The
only tricky part is getting the CAD file, what with the funny angles
involved.

Here is a good picture of the Eccentric Engineering one:
http://home.comcast.net/~bobengelhar...ToolHolder.jpg

Whattaya think - would the CAD file be that hard & what could they be
made to sell for?

Bob

Bob Engelhardt fired this volley in
:

Whattaya think

Bob,

I think, unless you're still using a lantern toolpost, that there has
been a LOT of tool holder research done since the 1800s, and there have
come many better designs. Even Craftsman sold ones that worked similarly
for their baby Atlas (for a lantern post).

There's nothing remarkable about that design. It's just an offset-head,
built-in back rake, built in side-rake holder -- allows you to grind
tools with no back rake or side rake on the bit, having only to grind the
front and side relief angles, and the profile. That makes it easier on
the tool grinder fellow; but it's nothing unique today.

It has more mystique than method to it.

LLoyd

Den 15-01-2012 01:19, Bob Engelhardt skrev:
This style toolholder has been around since the late 1800's, according
to what I read in a forum. Universally approved - "I'll never go back"
they say. Yet, not that widely used, I think. A few make their own, as I
did. A few buy the $140 - $150 commercial one (Eccentric Engineering).

I think that these could be hugely popular at the right price. $50? And
I think that they could be produced very cheaply on a CNC mill. The only
tricky part is getting the CAD file, what with the funny angles involved.

Here is a good picture of the Eccentric Engineering one:
http://home.comcast.net/~bobengelhar...ToolHolder.jpg

Whattaya think - would the CAD file be that hard & what could they be
made to sell for?

Personally I think it is outlived by inserts.
That said I am glad that I did some grinding of toolbits and did learn
the lesson of angeles from the grinding.
Yes, I do have a lot of toolbits holders for my SB 9" but they are not
the daily workhorse around here.
Just my 2-cent :-)

PS. Several years ago I did some machining in stainless and with
toolbits, just to make sure that I could. But today I would prefer inserts.

--
Uffe Bærentsen

"Bob Engelhardt" wrote in message
...
This style toolholder has been around since the late 1800's, according to
what I read in a forum. Universally approved - "I'll never go back" they
say. Yet, not that widely used, I think. A few make their own, as I did.
A few buy the $140 - $150 commercial one (Eccentric Engineering).

I think that these could be hugely popular at the right price. $50? And I
think that they could be produced very cheaply on a CNC mill. The only
tricky part is getting the CAD file, what with the funny angles involved.

Here is a good picture of the Eccentric Engineering one:
http://home.comcast.net/~bobengelhar...ToolHolder.jpg

Whattaya think - would the CAD file be that hard & what could they be made
to sell for?

Bob

Are the cutting edges properly angled to turn down the diameter and face the
resulting shoulder when the toolpost is set square? I can't tell from your
photo. I have to grind the point angle to less than 80 degrees to be sure my
Multifix with 9 degree setting steps will allow the bit to cut both ways.

jsw

Bob Engelhardt wrote:
This style toolholder has been around since the late 1800's, according to what I read in a forum. Universally approved -
"I'll never go back" they say. Yet, not that widely used, I think. A few make their own, as I did. A few buy the $140 -
$150 commercial one (Eccentric Engineering).

Or Bay Com:
http://www.bay-com.com/product-list....pg1-cid35.html

I think that these could be hugely popular at the right price. $50?

My little Burke T-6 runs US$112 so you would be 'way below the competition.

And I think that they could be produced very cheaply
on a CNC mill. The only tricky part is getting the CAD file, what with the funny angles involved.

Here is a good picture of the Eccentric Engineering one:
http://home.comcast.net/~bobengelhar...ToolHolder.jpg

Whattaya think - would the CAD file be that hard & what could they be made to sell for?

Bay Com gets US$105 to $155 for various sizes all day.
I think they are a good value at that price.

See also "Tangential Toolholder for a Sherline Lathe" in the
January/February 2009 issue of The Home Shop Machinist

--Winston

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...

"Bob Engelhardt" wrote in message
...
This style toolholder has been around since the late 1800's, according to
what I read in a forum. Universally approved - "I'll never go back" they
say. Yet, not that widely used, I think. A few make their own, as I
did. A few buy the $140 - $150 commercial one (Eccentric Engineering).

I think that these could be hugely popular at the right price. $50? And
I think that they could be produced very cheaply on a CNC mill. The only
tricky part is getting the CAD file, what with the funny angles involved.

Here is a good picture of the Eccentric Engineering one:
http://home.comcast.net/~bobengelhar...ToolHolder.jpg

Whattaya think - would the CAD file be that hard & what could they be
made to sell for?

Bob

Are the cutting edges properly angled to turn down the diameter and face
the resulting shoulder when the toolpost is set square? I can't tell from
your photo. I have to grind the point angle to less than 80 degrees to be
sure my Multifix with 9 degree setting steps will allow the bit to cut
both ways.


I would just copy the same basic design elements that everede uses instead.

http://everede.net/everede_style_bor...s_inserts.html

On Sat, 14 Jan 2012 19:19:14 -0500, Bob Engelhardt
wrote:

This style toolholder has been around since the late 1800's, according
to what I read in a forum. Universally approved - "I'll never go back"
they say. Yet, not that widely used, I think. A few make their own, as
I did. A few buy the $140 - $150 commercial one (Eccentric Engineering).

I think that these could be hugely popular at the right price. $50?
And I think that they could be produced very cheaply on a CNC mill. The
only tricky part is getting the CAD file, what with the funny angles
involved.

Here is a good picture of the Eccentric Engineering one:
http://home.comcast.net/~bobengelhar...ToolHolder.jpg

Whattaya think - would the CAD file be that hard & what could they be
made to sell for?

Bob
One problem with pricing is whether they are going to be sold directly
by you or if they are going to be sold by distributers. Distributers
may mark up a product like this as much as 100%. Getting the thing
drawn up would be no big deal. I need to redraw many of the parts I
make using my CAD/CAM software because the customers often supply
drawings on paper. Often not even a drawing, just a part to copy or a
sketch that sort of looks like what they want. Many, if not most, job
shops doing CNC work these days do the same thing. Digital drawings
just aren't available in many cases. So getting a machine shop to make
the drawings for the toolholders isn't that big of a deal. If you want
to pay a shop to make these things and then you sell them you will
need to figure out how much your time is worth and how much time it
will take to sell each tool holder. And you will need to make a bunch
to make it worthwhile. I imagine the things will need heat treatment
and black oxide coating besides the machining and packaging. So you
will need to make enough parts to avoid paying the minimum lot
charges. That of course goes for machining too. The setup charges need
to be spread across as many parts as possible.
Eric

On 2012-01-15, Bob Engelhardt wrote:
This style toolholder has been around since the late 1800's, according
to what I read in a forum. Universally approved - "I'll never go back"
they say. Yet, not that widely used, I think. A few make their own, as
I did. A few buy the $140 - $150 commercial one (Eccentric Engineering).

I think that these could be hugely popular at the right price. $50?
And I think that they could be produced very cheaply on a CNC mill. The
only tricky part is getting the CAD file, what with the funny angles
involved.

Here is a good picture of the Eccentric Engineering one:
http://home.comcast.net/~bobengelhar...ToolHolder.jpg

Whattaya think - would the CAD file be that hard & what could they be
made to sell for?

Bob

Bob, in my opinion, this is a low risk product, all you stand to lose
is a couple of grands. You should really do it, both for profit and
for education. Make proper drawings, order these holders made, and see
how they sell.

i

It's not evident from the various pictures how the genuine ones are
manufactured.. compressed powdered iron, maybe? Parts made with that process
tend to be expensive, but very durable IME.

It seems a custom profiled cutting tool could zip thru a row of blanks
standing on end in a special fixture on a manual mill with power feed if one
was inclined to try a test quantity, but a $50 final price wouldn't provide
a real wage, IMO (considering the different features of the main body, the
separate clamping piece and the secondary grinding accessory part).
The heat treat and finish processes mentioned, wouldn't be insignificant
even if one could DIY them.

Maybe using a special fixture like the one suggested, with an adjustable
tilt feature would allow some common cutting tools to be used in a couple of
tool changes.

I haven't worked in the industry, but my guess would be that anyone who has
a CNC capable of producing fairly complex parts would need to be making big
bucks to try to pay down the machine, plus labor and shop costs.

I frequently see less complex parts which could be making a shop money if
they have CNC machines which have periods of idle time.
Then again, there are some fairly simple parts which sell for crazy amounts,
but only in small markets.

The China factor lurks in the shadows, although according to what I've been
reading recently, a lot of their manufacturing is shutting down.. but they
do hugely popular items when they choose to even if the item is an inferior
looky-like same same version.

--
WB
..........


"Bob Engelhardt" wrote in message
...
This style toolholder has been around since the late 1800's, according to
what I read in a forum. Universally approved - "I'll never go back" they
say. Yet, not that widely used, I think. A few make their own, as I did.
A few buy the $140 - $150 commercial one (Eccentric Engineering).

I think that these could be hugely popular at the right price. $50? And I
think that they could be produced very cheaply on a CNC mill. The only
tricky part is getting the CAD file, what with the funny angles involved.

Here is a good picture of the Eccentric Engineering one:
http://home.comcast.net/~bobengelhar...ToolHolder.jpg

Whattaya think - would the CAD file be that hard & what could they be made
to sell for?

Bob

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com Inscribed thus:

Bob Engelhardt fired this volley in
:

Whattaya think

Bob,

I think, unless you're still using a lantern toolpost, that there has
been a LOT of tool holder research done since the 1800s, and there
have come many better designs. Even Craftsman sold ones that worked
similarly for their baby Atlas (for a lantern post).

There's nothing remarkable about that design. It's just an
offset-head, built-in back rake, built in side-rake holder -- allows
you to grind tools with no back rake or side rake on the bit, having
only to grind the front and side relief angles, and the profile. That
makes it easier on the tool grinder fellow; but it's nothing unique
today.

It has more mystique than method to it.

LLoyd

I agree !
Producing low cost holders for carbide inserts would be more cost
effective.

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

"Bob Engelhardt" wrote in message
...
Jim Wilkins wrote:
Are the cutting edges properly angled to turn down the diameter and face
the resulting shoulder when the toolpost is set square? I can't tell from
your photo. I have to grind the point angle to less than 80 degrees to be
sure my Multifix with 9 degree setting steps will allow the bit to cut
both ways.

The one that I made requires the toolpost to be angled, maybe 20 degrees.
The commercial one somewhat less. The bit is ground on one surface only,
but the point is less than 90 degrees, allowing shoulder-ing.

Bob

I set the compound to 29 degrees and the tool post square for parting, and
leave them there unless absolutely necessary. I wouldn't disturb them to
avoid an easy non-precision grinding job.

The diamond holder makes more sense with form tools that are difficult to
sharpen by grinding the outline. There are threading bit holders made that
way, except that the bit has ribs that mate with the clamping surface to
keep it from sliding down under the cutting pressure.

jsw

Bob Engelhardt fired this volley in
:

I guess that I'm easily impressed, but being able to grind a bit on
only
one surface is pretty remarkable to me.


Bob, in 1971, when I bought my 618 Atlas from Sears, their 'standard'
toolholder set was made thus, and it was _cheap_ even then.

They offered left and right offset, straight, and threading, all
configured so one had only to carve the profile and relief angles (which,
of course could be done in one grinding setup).

I still have 'em.

LLoyd

"Bob Engelhardt" wrote in message
...
This style toolholder has been around since the late 1800's, according to
what I read in a forum. Universally approved - "I'll never go back" they
say. Yet, not that widely used, I think. A few make their own, as I did.
A few buy the $140 - $150 commercial one (Eccentric Engineering).

I think that these could be hugely popular at the right price. $50? And I
think that they could be produced very cheaply on a CNC mill. The only
tricky part is getting the CAD file, what with the funny angles involved.

Here is a good picture of the Eccentric Engineering one:
http://home.comcast.net/~bobengelhar...ToolHolder.jpg

Whattaya think - would the CAD file be that hard & what could they be made
to sell for?

Bob

Is there any IP to worry about? Bay-Con may have something to say about 3rd
party sales of a diamond toolholder here in the US.