A little off topic, but I know someone here will have the answer. I have a
genset with a 220v recepticle which I wire into a transfer switch. The only
circuit that actually uses 220 serves the well-pump. The transfer switch
has a ganged 20amp breaker, which I wired to the well-pump circuit. The
generator, however, has two 20amp pushbutton circuit breakers, one for each
leg of 110. My question is: If one of the generator breakers tripped, then
my well pump would be getting only one leg of 110. Would the increased load
on the ganged breaker on the transfer switch cause it to also trip, or
should I wire in a ganged breaker at the generator itself? I certainly
don't want or have a way to test this...so I'm looking for advice.
Thanks,
Nok

Nok wrote:

A little off topic, but I know someone here will have the answer. I have a
genset with a 220v recepticle which I wire into a transfer switch. The only
circuit that actually uses 220 serves the well-pump. The transfer switch
has a ganged 20amp breaker, which I wired to the well-pump circuit. The
generator, however, has two 20amp pushbutton circuit breakers, one for each
leg of 110. My question is: If one of the generator breakers tripped, then
my well pump would be getting only one leg of 110. Would the increased load
on the ganged breaker on the transfer switch cause it to also trip, or
should I wire in a ganged breaker at the generator itself? I certainly
don't want or have a way to test this...so I'm looking for advice.


If either breaker opens the well pump won't run. There would be a
lower load on the generator, without the pump. The breaker that's going
to trip is the one with an additional load, so you'll notice that the
pump isn't running.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

"some" other appliances in the house would work. The ones on
the still-not leg. Other appliances, on the tripped leg,
would not work. Very possible that the generator would still
be under load.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in
message
m...

If either breaker opens the well pump won't run. There
would be a
lower load on the generator, without the pump. The breaker
that's going
to trip is the one with an additional load, so you'll notice
that the
pump isn't running.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

Stormin Mormon wrote:

"some" other appliances in the house would work. The ones on
the still-not leg. Other appliances, on the tripped leg,
would not work. Very possible that the generator would still
be under load.


Not if both breakers are accurate. The well pump loads both sides,
and one breaker by itself. The other breaker will have a higher load
and should trip first, if the load is more than a few tens of mA. He
could always add a small double pole breaker box and a 240 V 20A breaker
like those for a pump or small A/C to get common trip. Connect it to
the line side of the existing breakers.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

On 10/25/2011 4:13 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Stormin Mormon wrote:

"some" other appliances in the house would work. The ones on
the still-not leg. Other appliances, on the tripped leg,
would not work. Very possible that the generator would still
be under load.


Not if both breakers are accurate. The well pump loads both sides,
and one breaker by itself. The other breaker will have a higher load
and should trip first, if the load is more than a few tens of mA. He
could always add a small double pole breaker box and a 240 V 20A breaker
like those for a pump or small A/C to get common trip. Connect it to
the line side of the existing breakers.




Ain't gonna happen, Mike.

Manufacturing tolerance will decide which breaker goes first....

Richard wrote:

On 10/25/2011 4:13 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Stormin Mormon wrote:

"some" other appliances in the house would work. The ones on
the still-not leg. Other appliances, on the tripped leg,
would not work. Very possible that the generator would still
be under load.


Not if both breakers are accurate. The well pump loads both sides,
and one breaker by itself. The other breaker will have a higher load
and should trip first, if the load is more than a few tens of mA. He
could always add a small double pole breaker box and a 240 V 20A breaker
like those for a pump or small A/C to get common trip. Connect it to
the line side of the existing breakers.



Ain't gonna happen, Mike.

Manufacturing tolerance will decide which breaker goes first....


Sure, with Chinese breakers.

That's why I sugessted adding the external dual pole breaker with
common trip.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

With one 120 VAC breaker open (at the generator), the well
should stop running, and the amp draw would go to zero. Much
like opening a switch.

The ganged breaker is for people / worker safety. So, when
one turns off the (double) breaker to the well pump, one
turns off ALL the power.

If one side was off, like your generator 120 vac (single)
breaker example. The well pump would stop. A worker might
think the power is off. But, winding, and wires would still
have power available, and would be a safety hazzard for
workers.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Nok" wrote in message
...
A little off topic, but I know someone here will have the
answer. I have a
genset with a 220v recepticle which I wire into a transfer
switch. The only
circuit that actually uses 220 serves the well-pump. The
transfer switch
has a ganged 20amp breaker, which I wired to the well-pump
circuit. The
generator, however, has two 20amp pushbutton circuit
breakers, one for each
leg of 110. My question is: If one of the generator
breakers tripped, then
my well pump would be getting only one leg of 110. Would
the increased load
on the ganged breaker on the transfer switch cause it to
also trip, or
should I wire in a ganged breaker at the generator itself?
I certainly
don't want or have a way to test this...so I'm looking for
advice.
Thanks,
Nok

On 10/25/2011 3:48 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
With one 120 VAC breaker open (at the generator), the well
should stop running, and the amp draw would go to zero. Much
like opening a switch.
....

"Should"???

How can it do anything else; there's no return leg any longer.

--

Sorry, Nanny. I'll write it out a hundred times, now.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"dpb" wrote in message
...
On 10/25/2011 3:48 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
With one 120 VAC breaker open (at the generator), the well
should stop running, and the amp draw would go to zero.
Much
like opening a switch.
....

"Should"???

How can it do anything else; there's no return leg any
longer.

--

On 10/25/2011 03:55 PM, dpb wrote:
On 10/25/2011 3:48 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
With one 120 VAC breaker open (at the generator), the well
should stop running, and the amp draw would go to zero. Much
like opening a switch.
...

"Should"???

How can it do anything else; there's no return leg any longer.

Some power will still flow through the motor. The path is 120V
from the still hot leg, through the motor, through all of the
120V loads (in parallel) on the tripped leg, and thence to the
neutral. The fraction of the 120V that appears across the motor
depends on the ratio of the motor impedance to that of those
paralleled loads. In any event, current through the motor
cannot be higher than the sum of the currents those 120V loads
would normally draw.

--
Bob Nichols AT comcast.net I am "RNichols42"

I guess you didn't know? 220 VAC motors typically do not
have a neutral connection.

Since in a 220 VAC motor, the two 120 VAC legs are in
series, the current (amperage) is the same. Doesn't add to
make a higher number.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Robert Nichols"
wrote in
message ...

How can it do anything else; there's no return leg any
longer.

Some power will still flow through the motor. The path is
120V
from the still hot leg, through the motor, through all of
the
120V loads (in parallel) on the tripped leg, and thence to
the
neutral. The fraction of the 120V that appears across the
motor
depends on the ratio of the motor impedance to that of those
paralleled loads. In any event, current through the motor
cannot be higher than the sum of the currents those 120V
loads
would normally draw.

--
Bob Nichols AT comcast.net I am "RNichols42"

On Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:36:15 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

I guess you didn't know? 220 VAC motors typically do not
have a neutral connection.

Since in a 220 VAC motor, the two 120 VAC legs are in
series, the current (amperage) is the same. Doesn't add to
make a higher number.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org

If you didn't follow the verbal explanationm, draw the circuit,
including the 120V loads.

The path is
120V
from the still hot leg, through the motor, through all of
the
120V loads (in parallel) on the tripped leg, and thence to
the
neutral.

--
Ned Simmons

On 10/26/2011 08:36 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
I guess you didn't know? 220 VAC motors typically do not
have a neutral connection.

Since in a 220 VAC motor, the two 120 VAC legs are in
series, the current (amperage) is the same. Doesn't add to
make a higher number.

Care to point out where I said there was any neutral connection to
the motor? If there are some 120V loads on the leg with the
tripped breaker (which is quite likely, since that's the breaker
that tripped), there is a path from that side of the motor
_through_those_loads_ to the neutral conductor. Now you have a
voltage divider from the still hot 120V line, through the motor,
and the parallel combination of those 120V loads. The motor will
see a portion of the 120V, and those other loads will see the
rest. (Yes, I know the voltages will be partly out of phase and
won't add arithmetically. Trying to keep it simple here.)

--
Bob Nichols AT comcast.net I am "RNichols42"

On 10/25/2011 3:55 PM, dpb wrote:
On 10/25/2011 3:48 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
With one 120 VAC breaker open (at the generator), the well
should stop running, and the amp draw would go to zero. Much
like opening a switch.
...

"Should"???

How can it do anything else; there's no return leg any longer.

--


The electrical _potential_ is still there even if there is no current flow.

Wanna know which breaker let go?

Touch one of the lines.


OR think of it this way.

Pee on an electric fence - once.
Just once is all it will take.

On Oct 25, 4:48*pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
With one 120 VAC breaker open (at the generator), the well
should stop running, and the amp draw would go to zero. Much
like opening a switch.

The ganged breaker is for people / worker safety. So, when
one turns off the (double) breaker to the well pump, one
turns off ALL the power.

If one side was off, like your generator 120 vac (single)
breaker example. The well pump would stop. A worker might
think the power is off. But, winding, and wires would still
have power available, and would be a safety hazzard for
workers.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org

Zowie! twice in one day, I'm agreeing with Stormin. The dual ganged
breaker is there to ensure that if either side trips, that there is no
power in the box. That's for the purpose of protecting the
electrician, not the equipment.

I'd spend the money on a good GFCI (which has nothing to do with your
well pump, but I've seen plenty of generator installations that are an
electrocution waiting to happen).

On 10/25/2011 1:21 PM, Nok wrote:
A little off topic, but I know someone here will have the answer. I have a
genset with a 220v recepticle which I wire into a transfer switch. The only
circuit that actually uses 220 serves the well-pump. The transfer switch
has a ganged 20amp breaker, which I wired to the well-pump circuit. The
generator, however, has two 20amp pushbutton circuit breakers, one for each
leg of 110. My question is: If one of the generator breakers tripped, then
my well pump would be getting only one leg of 110. Would the increased load
on the ganged breaker on the transfer switch cause it to also trip, or
should I wire in a ganged breaker at the generator itself? I certainly
don't want or have a way to test this...so I'm looking for advice.
Thanks,
Nok


Not knowing what type of a well and pump you are referring to, it's a
little hard to respond.

The two deep wells on my properties, 350 ft and 650 ft, both use
submersible pumps towards the bottoms of each well. They run off 220
volts and have NO connection to either a ground or common component of
the 220 power.

In fact, any connection to ground immediately pops the circuit breakers.
That means the wire feeding the pump has shorted to the pipe. I know
this from bad experiences!

So, if either side of your generator 220 opens up, the pump won't run.

If you are running a shallow well pump, then I can't answer.

Paul

Is this generator supplying loads other than the pump? Single phase loads?

Even if the pump is the only load, good luck ensuring that the downstream
ganged breaker will trip first. If there are other loads (between the two
breakers), a gen breaker will almost certainly trip first.

What happens next will depend on what lies downstream of the (tripped) gen
breaker. Single phase loads on the tripped phase will end up in series with
the pump winding. While the voltage will probably collapse so that these
loads become inoperative, that leg will still be energized at some voltage.
If there's a fault there (what tripped the breaker), that could lead to a
hazardous situation.

Best bet is to replace the two gen breakers with a ganged unit. Don't feed a
line to line load from independent single pole breakers.

--
Paul Hovnanian
------------------------------------------------------------------
Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands!