distro was:
alt.politics.obama,can.talk.guns,talk.politics.gun s,rec.crafts.metalworking,nyc.politics
pruned to RCM

On 11 Sep 2011 00:36:04 -0000, "Hand-wringing Democrat
Pussies" wrote:

In particular, the insane decision to turn the once-routine
procedure of raising the debt ceiling (Lofgren notes it was done
87 times since WWII) into a political crisis revealed that the
GOP party mainstream had sunk to the level of terrorism –
holding our economic system hostage in exchange for political
concessions.

=============

This fails to consider the context.

The prior debt limit increases were not to 100%+ GDP in
peace time, and as soon as WW2 was over the debt was paid
down. The government has placed itself and the
nation/citizens in extreme vulnerability as a return to
normal interest rates [c. 5.5% historical average on U.S.
bonds] will be a disaster. Unfortunately, a continuation
of zero interest rates would also be a disaster for savers
and people living on a fixed income. It also makes it
difficult to raise capital for expansion and new product
development. It's called putting yourself between a rock
and a hard place.

Both parties are accountable. Both parties spent like
drunken sailors on shore leave, albeit on different things.
The democrats refuse to cut spending while the republicans
refuse to raise taxes or close loopholes, with the result
that the US national fiscal/financial position just keeps
getting worse, even as the EU is about to tank. The credit
implosion that just occurred was the direct result of the
bipartisan repeal of Glass-Stegall, emasculation of the
CFTC, and neglect by the SEC. A plague on both parties.


--
Unka' George

"Gold is the money of kings,
silver is the money of gentlemen,
barter is the money of peasants,
but debt is the money of slaves"

-Norm Franz, "Money and Wealth in the New Millenium"

On 9/10/2011 9:00 PM, F. George McDuffee wrote:
distro was:
alt.politics.obama,can.talk.guns,talk.politics.gun s,rec.crafts.metalworking,nyc.politics
pruned to RCM

On 11 Sep 2011 00:36:04 -0000, "Hand-wringing Democrat
wrote:

In particular, the insane decision to turn the once-routine
procedure of raising the debt ceiling (Lofgren notes it was done
87 times since WWII) into a political crisis revealed that the
GOP party mainstream had sunk to the level of terrorism –
holding our economic system hostage in exchange for political
concessions.

=============

This fails to consider the context.

The prior debt limit increases were not to 100%+ GDP in
peace time, and as soon as WW2 was over the debt was paid
down. The government has placed itself and the
nation/citizens in extreme vulnerability as a return to
normal interest rates [c. 5.5% historical average on U.S.
bonds] will be a disaster. Unfortunately, a continuation
of zero interest rates would also be a disaster for savers
and people living on a fixed income. It also makes it
difficult to raise capital for expansion and new product
development. It's called putting yourself between a rock
and a hard place.

Both parties are accountable. Both parties spent like
drunken sailors on shore leave, albeit on different things.
The democrats refuse to cut spending while the republicans
refuse to raise taxes or close loopholes, with the result
that the US national fiscal/financial position just keeps
getting worse, even as the EU is about to tank. The credit
implosion that just occurred was the direct result of the
bipartisan repeal of Glass-Stegall, emasculation of the
CFTC, and neglect by the SEC. A plague on both parties.


I hear it over and over from one expert after another. They all say the
same thing. I heard a financial expert on CNBC on Friday saying it. The
largest part of our deficit was caused by the Bush tax cuts and the two
wars. Had we not let Bush make those decisions this country would not be
facing a debt problem. It would be nowhere near the 14 trillion that it
is now. The republicans forced the tax cuts and the wars on the country.
I can guarantee if we had had a Democratic administration in the White
House in 2001 instead of Bush we would not be in this financial mess. So
while some of the debt we have racked up can be attributed to decisions
made by the Democrats most of it came courtesy of the republican party.
It was not the work of both parties equally.

Hawke

OT added to subject line

On Sun, 11 Sep 2011 15:10:39 -0700, Hawke
wrote:

snip
So
while some of the debt we have racked up can be attributed to decisions
made by the Democrats most of it came courtesy of the republican party.
It was not the work of both parties equally.
snip

======================
You and others following this digression may appreciate
http://www.swans.com/library/art17/ga297.html
snip
Somehow, that's where the shoe rubs. Mr. Bush and Mr. Obama
attended to the well being of Wall Street but never
addressed in any serious way the crisis on Main Street that
was by and large caused by the bursting of the housing
bubble. Homeowners have been left to fend for themselves as
they lost over $8 trillion in equity (4) while being
burdened by personal debt. Not at any time did both
administrations focus on the real problems beleaguering
American workers. Their approach may have been according to
script -- let banks lend more and consumers borrow -- but
they constantly missed the scope of the crisis. They have
failed to grasp that this crisis was not the usual business
cycle, which could be solved with the panoply of orthodox
policies, but the culmination of a crisis that began in the
1970s and never abated. They also failed to take the
opportunity to change the structural and sociological
paradigm. So the chickens are now coming back to roost in a
hurry with full adversarial strength.

Not only are these people malevolent, they are indeed
clueless.
snip


--
Unka' George

"Gold is the money of kings,
silver is the money of gentlemen,
barter is the money of peasants,
but debt is the money of slaves"

-Norm Franz, "Money and Wealth in the New Millenium"

On 9/11/2011 7:37 PM, F. George McDuffee wrote:


OT added to subject line

On Sun, 11 Sep 2011 15:10:39 -0700, Hawke
wrote:

snip
So
while some of the debt we have racked up can be attributed to decisions
made by the Democrats most of it came courtesy of the republican party.
It was not the work of both parties equally.
snip

======================
You and others following this digression may appreciate
http://www.swans.com/library/art17/ga297.html
snip
Somehow, that's where the shoe rubs. Mr. Bush and Mr. Obama
attended to the well being of Wall Street but never
addressed in any serious way the crisis on Main Street that
was by and large caused by the bursting of the housing
bubble. Homeowners have been left to fend for themselves as
they lost over $8 trillion in equity (4) while being
burdened by personal debt. Not at any time did both
administrations focus on the real problems beleaguering
American workers. Their approach may have been according to
script -- let banks lend more and consumers borrow -- but
they constantly missed the scope of the crisis. They have
failed to grasp that this crisis was not the usual business
cycle, which could be solved with the panoply of orthodox
policies, but the culmination of a crisis that began in the
1970s and never abated. They also failed to take the
opportunity to change the structural and sociological
paradigm. So the chickens are now coming back to roost in a
hurry with full adversarial strength.

Not only are these people malevolent, they are indeed
clueless.
snip


Here's what the reality is. Obama just got the Chris Dodd bill that puts
regulations on Wall Street passed. Not nearly enough to keep them from
screwing us again but at least they tried and it's a step in the right
direction.

Take a guess what the republicans are trying to do. They are working to
deny funds to the agencies that would be tasked with enforcing the new
regulations put on Wall Street. So as fast as the Democrats are putting
new regulations to protect the public from Wall Street gambling the
republicans are working to undermine it.

This is how it goes. republicans always try to destroy everything
worthwhile to the country unless it's for business or the rich. Anything
else they tear it apart. Look for them to tear apart the Obama jobs bill
too. Because the republicans never miss a chance to block a Democratic
proposal to help middle class Americans.

Hawke