Detroit Diesel 3-53 would not stop after air intake closed? WTF?
 

If you recall, I had a Detroit Diesel 3-53 in my trailer.

After I cleaned up my yard a little bit, I dragged it out, so it sits
on a cart (properly tied down).

I tried starting it again. Just as in winter, it started VERY strong
and fast. It also would not respond much to the controls.

To stop it, I covered the air intake with a wooden board.

The first time, it stopped.

Then I opened the valve cover to see if controls move anything under
the valve cover. One kind of did move something.

Then I started it again a second time. (with the valve cover off a
mistake).

The second time, believe it or not, it did NOT stop. It kept going,
slowly, but it just would NOT stop. I pulled the fuel line, and
finally, after a minute, it did stop.

My question is WTF? How exactly can it run, with the air intake
closed? The board seems soft and smooth, and it is not likely (but I
am open to anything) that it let any air into the engine.

Since it was outside the trailer, unlike in winter, I was not in
danger of ruining my underwear, but it was freaky and unsettling to
have an unstoppable diesel engine.

i

Detroit Diesel 3-53 would not stop after air intake closed? WTF?
 

"Ignoramus31413" wrote in message
...
If you recall, I had a Detroit Diesel 3-53 in my trailer.

After I cleaned up my yard a little bit, I dragged it out, so it sits
on a cart (properly tied down).

I tried starting it again. Just as in winter, it started VERY strong
and fast. It also would not respond much to the controls.

To stop it, I covered the air intake with a wooden board.

The first time, it stopped.

Then I opened the valve cover to see if controls move anything under
the valve cover. One kind of did move something.

Then I started it again a second time. (with the valve cover off a
mistake).

The second time, believe it or not, it did NOT stop. It kept going,
slowly, but it just would NOT stop. I pulled the fuel line, and
finally, after a minute, it did stop.

My question is WTF? How exactly can it run, with the air intake
closed? The board seems soft and smooth, and it is not likely (but I
am open to anything) that it let any air into the engine.

Since it was outside the trailer, unlike in winter, I was not in
danger of ruining my underwear, but it was freaky and unsettling to
have an unstoppable diesel engine.

i

I would guess that with the valve cover off, the engine is breathing
through the "breather" hose on the valve cover?
Normally the breather would be applying vacuum to the valve area &
crankcase and only "breathing" the limited amount of blowby from past the
rings... but with the valve cover off it's "breathing" fresh air?

Detroit Diesel 3-53 would not stop after air intake closed? WTF?
 

On 06/21/2011 09:20 AM, Ignoramus31413 wrote:
If you recall, I had a Detroit Diesel 3-53 in my trailer.

After I cleaned up my yard a little bit, I dragged it out, so it sits
on a cart (properly tied down).

I tried starting it again. Just as in winter, it started VERY strong
and fast. It also would not respond much to the controls.

To stop it, I covered the air intake with a wooden board.

The first time, it stopped.

Then I opened the valve cover to see if controls move anything under
the valve cover. One kind of did move something.

Then I started it again a second time. (with the valve cover off a
mistake).

The second time, believe it or not, it did NOT stop. It kept going,
slowly, but it just would NOT stop. I pulled the fuel line, and
finally, after a minute, it did stop.

My question is WTF? How exactly can it run, with the air intake
closed? The board seems soft and smooth, and it is not likely (but I
am open to anything) that it let any air into the engine.

Since it was outside the trailer, unlike in winter, I was not in
danger of ruining my underwear, but it was freaky and unsettling to
have an unstoppable diesel engine.

Either you have a leak in your intake manifold, or leaky intake valves,
or it's sucking air past the rings from the crank case. Or I have my
head up my ass -- I'm no diesel mechanic, nor a truck driver.

I thought diesel engines were supposed to cut off fuel to stop, and only
cut off the air as an emergency stopping measure?

I was told, a long time ago by someone who wasn't a diesel mechanic (but
did drive them quite a bit, and pay for them when they broke) that a
diesel can 'run away' by sucking both air and crankcase oil past the
rings, and be unstoppable until it has seriously depleted the
lubricating oil.

I:

1: don't know how often that happened.
2: don't know if it's true at all (but it was my dad, who didn't
usually exaggerate, and who was in a position to know)
3: don't know if it's common now, as opposed to the mid 1970's
when I heard it.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

Detroit Diesel 3-53 would not stop after air intake closed? WTF?
 

Tim Wescott wrote:

I was told, a long time ago by someone who wasn't a diesel mechanic (but
did drive them quite a bit, and pay for them when they broke) that a
diesel can 'run away' by sucking both air and crankcase oil past the
rings, and be unstoppable until it has seriously depleted the
lubricating oil.

I owned a Volkswagan Rabbit diesel for a
little while. The rings were worn and after
a few weeks about an inch of crankcase oil
would build up in the air box. Hitting a
bump or going around a tight curve would
slosh the oil into the intakes and give you
a very exciting 5 seconds of about 150%
full throttle. Especially if you were in
that tight turn at the time.

I learned to pop the airbox open and mop
out the oil about once a month.


I:

1: don't know how often that happened.
2: don't know if it's true at all (but it was my dad, who didn't
usually exaggerate, and who was in a position to know)
3: don't know if it's common now, as opposed to the mid 1970's
when I heard it.

Detroit Diesel 3-53 would not stop after air intake closed? WTF?
 

David Courtney wrote:

"Ignoramus31413" wrote in message
...
If you recall, I had a Detroit Diesel 3-53 in my trailer.

After I cleaned up my yard a little bit, I dragged it out, so it sits
on a cart (properly tied down).

I tried starting it again. Just as in winter, it started VERY strong
and fast. It also would not respond much to the controls.

To stop it, I covered the air intake with a wooden board.

The first time, it stopped.

Then I opened the valve cover to see if controls move anything under
the valve cover. One kind of did move something.

Then I started it again a second time. (with the valve cover off a
mistake).

The second time, believe it or not, it did NOT stop. It kept going,
slowly, but it just would NOT stop. I pulled the fuel line, and
finally, after a minute, it did stop.

My question is WTF? How exactly can it run, with the air intake
closed? The board seems soft and smooth, and it is not likely (but I
am open to anything) that it let any air into the engine.

Since it was outside the trailer, unlike in winter, I was not in
danger of ruining my underwear, but it was freaky and unsettling to
have an unstoppable diesel engine.

i

I would guess that with the valve cover off, the engine is breathing
through the "breather" hose on the valve cover?
Normally the breather would be applying vacuum to the valve area &
crankcase and only "breathing" the limited amount of blowby from past the
rings... but with the valve cover off it's "breathing" fresh air?

That sounds plausible. Also wondering why he isn't using a fuel shutoff
to shutdown like every diesel I've operated uses.

Detroit Diesel 3-53 would not stop after air intake closed? WTF?
 

Here's a little update. This is sort of a "reply to all", I am reading
everything that you guys post, and this is my update.

I have learned to run this diesel a little more safely, so that I do
not freak out.

First, I added a ball valve on fuel intake, so I can easily shut off
or restrict fuel at any moment.

Second, I start the engine with intake mostly blocked by that infamous
board.

This way, the engine does not run frighteningly fast. It runs
relatively slowly, is starved for air, smokes a lot, and I can shut it
off by simply shutting off my ball valve on the fuel filter.

While it runs slowly, I can afford to experiment a little bit. Neither
of the two controls does anything that I can perceive.

My feeling is that I need to read up the manual on how the governor
functions in this engine.

Lastly, even when the engine ran too fast and too loud, the output
pulleys seemed to rotate at a fairly reasonable speed. So perhaps I am
just a little bit too girly and too sensitive to the noise of a two
stroke diesel. But I do not want to take chances on this.

i

Detroit Diesel 3-53 would not stop after air intake closed? WTF?
 

On 2011-06-21, Pete C. wrote:

David Courtney wrote:

"Ignoramus31413" wrote in message
...
If you recall, I had a Detroit Diesel 3-53 in my trailer.

After I cleaned up my yard a little bit, I dragged it out, so it sits
on a cart (properly tied down).

I tried starting it again. Just as in winter, it started VERY strong
and fast. It also would not respond much to the controls.

To stop it, I covered the air intake with a wooden board.

The first time, it stopped.

Then I opened the valve cover to see if controls move anything under
the valve cover. One kind of did move something.

Then I started it again a second time. (with the valve cover off a
mistake).

The second time, believe it or not, it did NOT stop. It kept going,
slowly, but it just would NOT stop. I pulled the fuel line, and
finally, after a minute, it did stop.

My question is WTF? How exactly can it run, with the air intake
closed? The board seems soft and smooth, and it is not likely (but I
am open to anything) that it let any air into the engine.

Since it was outside the trailer, unlike in winter, I was not in
danger of ruining my underwear, but it was freaky and unsettling to
have an unstoppable diesel engine.

i

I would guess that with the valve cover off, the engine is breathing
through the "breather" hose on the valve cover?
Normally the breather would be applying vacuum to the valve area &
crankcase and only "breathing" the limited amount of blowby from past the
rings... but with the valve cover off it's "breathing" fresh air?

That sounds plausible. Also wondering why he isn't using a fuel shutoff
to shutdown like every diesel I've operated uses.

Great idea. Thanks.

I have added a fuel shutoff just 5 minutes ago. It helps in getting
the situation under control.

Detroit Diesel 3-53 would not stop after air intake closed? WTF?
 

Ignoramus31413 wrote:
If you recall, I had a Detroit Diesel 3-53 in my trailer.

After I cleaned up my yard a little bit, I dragged it out, so it sits
on a cart (properly tied down).

I tried starting it again. Just as in winter, it started VERY strong
and fast. It also would not respond much to the controls.

To stop it, I covered the air intake with a wooden board.

The first time, it stopped.

Then I opened the valve cover to see if controls move anything under
the valve cover. One kind of did move something.

Then I started it again a second time. (with the valve cover off a
mistake).

Yep BIG mistake. With the VC off the engine now has an intake path for
air. Through the crankcase via the oil drains and crankcase vent lines.
Detroits are two strokes. They pass the intake air through the crankcase
to vent any vapors (this is also why they like oil, they suck out any
oil misting in the crankcase) and then it gets run into the engine
through the separator.


The second time, believe it or not, it did NOT stop. It kept going,
slowly, but it just would NOT stop. I pulled the fuel line, and
finally, after a minute, it did stop.

My question is WTF? How exactly can it run, with the air intake
closed? The board seems soft and smooth, and it is not likely (but I
am open to anything) that it let any air into the engine.

Since it was outside the trailer, unlike in winter, I was not in
danger of ruining my underwear, but it was freaky and unsettling to
have an unstoppable diesel engine.

BTDT with a couple Detroits. The BEST way to shut ANY diesel down is
with a fuel shut-off. Shutting off the air intake is the last option.
That is because the high vacuum that it creates can damage seals in the
scavenging pump and intake.


i


--
Steve W.

Detroit Diesel 3-53 would not stop after air intake closed? WTF?
 

On 2011-06-21, Tim Wescott wrote:
On 06/21/2011 09:20 AM, Ignoramus31413 wrote:
If you recall, I had a Detroit Diesel 3-53 in my trailer.

After I cleaned up my yard a little bit, I dragged it out, so it sits
on a cart (properly tied down).

I tried starting it again. Just as in winter, it started VERY strong
and fast. It also would not respond much to the controls.

To stop it, I covered the air intake with a wooden board.

The first time, it stopped.

Then I opened the valve cover to see if controls move anything under
the valve cover. One kind of did move something.

Then I started it again a second time. (with the valve cover off a
mistake).

The second time, believe it or not, it did NOT stop. It kept going,
slowly, but it just would NOT stop. I pulled the fuel line, and
finally, after a minute, it did stop.

My question is WTF? How exactly can it run, with the air intake
closed? The board seems soft and smooth, and it is not likely (but I
am open to anything) that it let any air into the engine.

Since it was outside the trailer, unlike in winter, I was not in
danger of ruining my underwear, but it was freaky and unsettling to
have an unstoppable diesel engine.

Either you have a leak in your intake manifold, or leaky intake valves,
or it's sucking air past the rings from the crank case. Or I have my
head up my ass -- I'm no diesel mechanic, nor a truck driver.

Maybe I have my head up my ass too.

I thought diesel engines were supposed to cut off fuel to stop, and only
cut off the air as an emergency stopping measure?

I have added a fuel cutoff valve.

I was told, a long time ago by someone who wasn't a diesel mechanic (but
did drive them quite a bit, and pay for them when they broke) that a
diesel can 'run away' by sucking both air and crankcase oil past the
rings, and be unstoppable until it has seriously depleted the
lubricating oil.

I thought that it was all about just sucking oil, not air. That is a
very scary possibility.

i

I:

1: don't know how often that happened.
2: don't know if it's true at all (but it was my dad, who didn't
usually exaggerate, and who was in a position to know)
3: don't know if it's common now, as opposed to the mid 1970's
when I heard it.

Detroit Diesel 3-53 would not stop after air intake closed? WTF?
 

Ignoramus31413 wrote:
Here's a little update. This is sort of a "reply to all", I am reading
everything that you guys post, and this is my update.

I have learned to run this diesel a little more safely, so that I do
not freak out.

First, I added a ball valve on fuel intake, so I can easily shut off
or restrict fuel at any moment.

Second, I start the engine with intake mostly blocked by that infamous
board.

NOT a good idea. That WILL damage the engine, you control the engine
speed using the fuel throttle NOT air.


This way, the engine does not run frighteningly fast. It runs
relatively slowly, is starved for air, smokes a lot, and I can shut it
off by simply shutting off my ball valve on the fuel filter.

While it runs slowly, I can afford to experiment a little bit. Neither
of the two controls does anything that I can perceive.

My feeling is that I need to read up the manual on how the governor
functions in this engine.

Gee ya think!!!


Lastly, even when the engine ran too fast and too loud, the output
pulleys seemed to rotate at a fairly reasonable speed. So perhaps I am
just a little bit too girly and too sensitive to the noise of a two
stroke diesel. But I do not want to take chances on this.

Detroits run normally at 1900-2100 rpm. Much over 2400 and they start to
destroy themselves.
They are THE NOISIEST diesel out there. They also can be set up to make
more power than any other engine of the same size due to being a two
stroke.


i


--
Steve W.

Detroit Diesel 3-53 would not stop after air intake closed? WTF?
 

Ignoramus31413 wrote:
On 2011-06-21, Tim Wescott wrote:

On 06/21/2011 09:20 AM, Ignoramus31413 wrote:

If you recall, I had a Detroit Diesel 3-53 in my trailer.

After I cleaned up my yard a little bit, I dragged it out, so it sits
on a cart (properly tied down).

I tried starting it again. Just as in winter, it started VERY strong
and fast. It also would not respond much to the controls.

To stop it, I covered the air intake with a wooden board.

The first time, it stopped.

Then I opened the valve cover to see if controls move anything under
the valve cover. One kind of did move something.

Then I started it again a second time. (with the valve cover off a
mistake).

The second time, believe it or not, it did NOT stop. It kept going,
slowly, but it just would NOT stop. I pulled the fuel line, and
finally, after a minute, it did stop.

My question is WTF? How exactly can it run, with the air intake
closed? The board seems soft and smooth, and it is not likely (but I
am open to anything) that it let any air into the engine.

Since it was outside the trailer, unlike in winter, I was not in
danger of ruining my underwear, but it was freaky and unsettling to
have an unstoppable diesel engine.

Either you have a leak in your intake manifold, or leaky intake valves,
or it's sucking air past the rings from the crank case. Or I have my
head up my ass -- I'm no diesel mechanic, nor a truck driver.


Maybe I have my head up my ass too.


I thought diesel engines were supposed to cut off fuel to stop, and only
cut off the air as an emergency stopping measure?


I have added a fuel cutoff valve.


I was told, a long time ago by someone who wasn't a diesel mechanic (but
did drive them quite a bit, and pay for them when they broke) that a
diesel can 'run away' by sucking both air and crankcase oil past the
rings, and be unstoppable until it has seriously depleted the
lubricating oil.


I thought that it was all about just sucking oil, not air. That is a
very scary possibility.

A chap I used to know, now dead, told me lots of interesting stories
from when he worked in construction and some of those included large
earth moving machinery where the diesel engines ran away. In one case
the operator realised what was happening and drove the machine into the
tunnel wall to stall it before any serious problems occurred. Those big
machines in question had oil bath air filters IIRC and in some cases the
engine would start to run on the oil in those. The chap had an
interesting life, he said on another occasion he was almost killed by
shrapnel from a generator donkey engine exploding when someone used
compressed oxygen to start the genset rather than compressed air, that
was when he was working on the Aswan dam.


i


I:

1: don't know how often that happened.
2: don't know if it's true at all (but it was my dad, who didn't
usually exaggerate, and who was in a position to know)
3: don't know if it's common now, as opposed to the mid 1970's
when I heard it.

STUCK INJECTOR -- was Detroit Diesel 3-53 would not stop after airintake closed? WTF?
 

I think that I got it, thanks to you and Phil P from SmokStak.

The cause of this runaway condition is that a rod that is supposed to
regulate the injector, failed on one of the three cylinders.

http://igor.chudov.com/projects/Detr...tuck-Injector/

See just one picture he

http://goo.gl/3d5xV

Any idea how to get it "unstuck".

thanks

i

Detroit Diesel 3-53 would not stop after air intake closed? WTF?
 

Maybe valve seals are shot?

Detroit Diesel 3-53 would not stop after air intake closed? WTF?
 

You commented about how fast the engine seems to run, even tho pulleys, etc,
don't seem to be going so fast.
As one guy said, this is a 2 stroke, so it makes twice as many power
pulses as what may sound normal to you.
We still have some of them around in farm tractors. You can hear them 2
miles away, sounding like they are running 10K rpms.
I see that you found a bad part. Good.
But just in case, my Case 800 Diesel's fuel pump-distributor/governor are
two separate machines within a more or less common box. The governor
connects to the distributor with a little link. Once, while out in the
woods bringing home firewood, the link came off inside the thing. I totally
lost rpm control. I shut off the fuel, but the thing kept going, winding up
as it went. Exhaust manifold glowed red. I finally clamped a vise grip on
a flexible part of the fuel line to stop it. Scary. It was 8 or 10 years
ago. Engine still runs fine with rebuilt distributor system.
The moral: make sure the governor is connected where it can do some good.

Pete Stanaitis
----------------

Detroit Diesel 3-53 would not stop after air intake closed? WTF?
 

On 2011-06-22, Pete S wrote:
You commented about how fast the engine seems to run, even tho pulleys, etc,
don't seem to be going so fast.
As one guy said, this is a 2 stroke, so it makes twice as many power
pulses as what may sound normal to you.
We still have some of them around in farm tractors. You can hear them 2
miles away, sounding like they are running 10K rpms.
I see that you found a bad part. Good.
But just in case, my Case 800 Diesel's fuel pump-distributor/governor are
two separate machines within a more or less common box. The governor
connects to the distributor with a little link. Once, while out in the
woods bringing home firewood, the link came off inside the thing. I totally
lost rpm control. I shut off the fuel, but the thing kept going, winding up
as it went. Exhaust manifold glowed red. I finally clamped a vise grip on
a flexible part of the fuel line to stop it. Scary. It was 8 or 10 years
ago. Engine still runs fine with rebuilt distributor system.
The moral: make sure the governor is connected where it can do some good.

A very scary story. Thanks for sharing. I will work on it, when time
and weather permits, which may be a while from now.

Detroit Diesel 3-53 would not stop after air intake closed? WTF?
 

Ignoramus31413 wrote in
rec.crafts.metalworking on Tue, 21 Jun 2011 13:01:38 -0500:

First, I added a ball valve on fuel intake, so I can easily shut off
or restrict fuel at any moment.

That's good. But figure out how it's supposed to be shut off.
Cutting off the fuel before the injector pump starves the injector
pump of its only source of lubricant. At slow speeds you can get away
with it, but if you had it at high RPMs and did it too often, you
might kill the injector pump. More of an issue with a truck or
something if you were to run the tank dry and coast down a hill.

You should be able to hold the throttle (linkage to the injector
pump?) closed, to stop the engine.


--

Dan H.
northshore MA.

Detroit Diesel 3-53 would not stop after air intake closed? WTF?
 

On 2011-06-22, dan wrote:
Ignoramus31413 wrote in
rec.crafts.metalworking on Tue, 21 Jun 2011 13:01:38 -0500:

First, I added a ball valve on fuel intake, so I can easily shut off
or restrict fuel at any moment.

That's good. But figure out how it's supposed to be shut off.
Cutting off the fuel before the injector pump starves the injector
pump of its only source of lubricant. At slow speeds you can get away
with it, but if you had it at high RPMs and did it too often, you
might kill the injector pump. More of an issue with a truck or
something if you were to run the tank dry and coast down a hill.

You should be able to hold the throttle (linkage to the injector
pump?) closed, to stop the engine.



The issue is that one injector was stuck. I will probably just get a
new one if I cannot take care of this one easily.

i

STUCK INJECTOR -- was Detroit Diesel 3-53 would not stop afterair intake closed? WTF?
 

Ignoramus31413 wrote:
I think that I got it, thanks to you and Phil P from SmokStak.

The cause of this runaway condition is that a rod that is supposed to
regulate the injector, failed on one of the three cylinders.

http://igor.chudov.com/projects/Detr...tuck-Injector/

See just one picture he

http://goo.gl/3d5xV

Any idea how to get it "unstuck".

thanks

i

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqQVk3WV2PU


--
Steve W.

STUCK INJECTOR -- was Detroit Diesel 3-53 would not stop afterair intake closed? WTF?
 

On 2011-06-22, Steve W. wrote:
Ignoramus31413 wrote:
I think that I got it, thanks to you and Phil P from SmokStak.

The cause of this runaway condition is that a rod that is supposed to
regulate the injector, failed on one of the three cylinders.

http://igor.chudov.com/projects/Detr...tuck-Injector/

See just one picture he

http://goo.gl/3d5xV

Any idea how to get it "unstuck".

thanks

i

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqQVk3WV2PU



I just watched it 10 minutes ago. Sad

i

Detroit Diesel 3-53 would not stop after air intake closed? WTF?
 

On Tue, 21 Jun 2011 11:20:51 -0500, Ignoramus31413
wrote:

If you recall, I had a Detroit Diesel 3-53 in my trailer.

After I cleaned up my yard a little bit, I dragged it out, so it sits
on a cart (properly tied down).

I tried starting it again. Just as in winter, it started VERY strong
and fast. It also would not respond much to the controls.

To stop it, I covered the air intake with a wooden board.

The first time, it stopped.

Then I opened the valve cover to see if controls move anything under
the valve cover. One kind of did move something.

Then I started it again a second time. (with the valve cover off a
mistake).

The second time, believe it or not, it did NOT stop. It kept going,
slowly, but it just would NOT stop. I pulled the fuel line, and
finally, after a minute, it did stop.

My question is WTF? How exactly can it run, with the air intake
closed? The board seems soft and smooth, and it is not likely (but I
am open to anything) that it let any air into the engine.

Since it was outside the trailer, unlike in winter, I was not in
danger of ruining my underwear, but it was freaky and unsettling to
have an unstoppable diesel engine.

i
Bad gasket between the intake and the blower, for example.

Detroit Diesel 3-53 would not stop after air intake closed? WTF?
 

On Tue, 21 Jun 2011 12:37:20 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


David Courtney wrote:

"Ignoramus31413" wrote in message
...
If you recall, I had a Detroit Diesel 3-53 in my trailer.

After I cleaned up my yard a little bit, I dragged it out, so it sits
on a cart (properly tied down).

I tried starting it again. Just as in winter, it started VERY strong
and fast. It also would not respond much to the controls.

To stop it, I covered the air intake with a wooden board.

The first time, it stopped.

Then I opened the valve cover to see if controls move anything under
the valve cover. One kind of did move something.

Then I started it again a second time. (with the valve cover off a
mistake).

The second time, believe it or not, it did NOT stop. It kept going,
slowly, but it just would NOT stop. I pulled the fuel line, and
finally, after a minute, it did stop.

My question is WTF? How exactly can it run, with the air intake
closed? The board seems soft and smooth, and it is not likely (but I
am open to anything) that it let any air into the engine.

Since it was outside the trailer, unlike in winter, I was not in
danger of ruining my underwear, but it was freaky and unsettling to
have an unstoppable diesel engine.

i

I would guess that with the valve cover off, the engine is breathing
through the "breather" hose on the valve cover?
Normally the breather would be applying vacuum to the valve area &
crankcase and only "breathing" the limited amount of blowby from past the
rings... but with the valve cover off it's "breathing" fresh air?

That sounds plausible. Also wondering why he isn't using a fuel shutoff
to shutdown like every diesel I've operated uses.

The GMC engines are two stroke and use a roots blower to provide
scavenging pressure. As the blowers are lubricated by engine oil
pressure if a shaft seal fails it injects lube under normal operating
pressure into the incoming air stream. If you shut off the fuel under
this condition the engine won't stop; if you shut off the air it will.

Detroit Diesel 3-53 would not stop after air intake closed? WTF?
 

On Tue, 21 Jun 2011 13:04:26 -0500, Ignoramus31413
wrote:

On 2011-06-21, Pete C. wrote:

David Courtney wrote:

"Ignoramus31413" wrote in message
...
If you recall, I had a Detroit Diesel 3-53 in my trailer.

After I cleaned up my yard a little bit, I dragged it out, so it sits
on a cart (properly tied down).

I tried starting it again. Just as in winter, it started VERY strong
and fast. It also would not respond much to the controls.

To stop it, I covered the air intake with a wooden board.

The first time, it stopped.

Then I opened the valve cover to see if controls move anything under
the valve cover. One kind of did move something.

Then I started it again a second time. (with the valve cover off a
mistake).

The second time, believe it or not, it did NOT stop. It kept going,
slowly, but it just would NOT stop. I pulled the fuel line, and
finally, after a minute, it did stop.

My question is WTF? How exactly can it run, with the air intake
closed? The board seems soft and smooth, and it is not likely (but I
am open to anything) that it let any air into the engine.

Since it was outside the trailer, unlike in winter, I was not in
danger of ruining my underwear, but it was freaky and unsettling to
have an unstoppable diesel engine.

i

I would guess that with the valve cover off, the engine is breathing
through the "breather" hose on the valve cover?
Normally the breather would be applying vacuum to the valve area &
crankcase and only "breathing" the limited amount of blowby from past the
rings... but with the valve cover off it's "breathing" fresh air?

That sounds plausible. Also wondering why he isn't using a fuel shutoff
to shutdown like every diesel I've operated uses.

Great idea. Thanks.

I have added a fuel shutoff just 5 minutes ago. It helps in getting
the situation under control.


Didn't the engine have a spring loaded "damper" in the intake when you
got it?

Detroit Diesel 3-53 would not stop after air intake closed? WTF?
 

On 2011-06-22, john B wrote:
On Tue, 21 Jun 2011 13:04:26 -0500, Ignoramus31413
wrote:

On 2011-06-21, Pete C. wrote:

David Courtney wrote:

"Ignoramus31413" wrote in message
...
If you recall, I had a Detroit Diesel 3-53 in my trailer.

After I cleaned up my yard a little bit, I dragged it out, so it sits
on a cart (properly tied down).

I tried starting it again. Just as in winter, it started VERY strong
and fast. It also would not respond much to the controls.

To stop it, I covered the air intake with a wooden board.

The first time, it stopped.

Then I opened the valve cover to see if controls move anything under
the valve cover. One kind of did move something.

Then I started it again a second time. (with the valve cover off a
mistake).

The second time, believe it or not, it did NOT stop. It kept going,
slowly, but it just would NOT stop. I pulled the fuel line, and
finally, after a minute, it did stop.

My question is WTF? How exactly can it run, with the air intake
closed? The board seems soft and smooth, and it is not likely (but I
am open to anything) that it let any air into the engine.

Since it was outside the trailer, unlike in winter, I was not in
danger of ruining my underwear, but it was freaky and unsettling to
have an unstoppable diesel engine.

i

I would guess that with the valve cover off, the engine is breathing
through the "breather" hose on the valve cover?
Normally the breather would be applying vacuum to the valve area &
crankcase and only "breathing" the limited amount of blowby from past the
rings... but with the valve cover off it's "breathing" fresh air?

That sounds plausible. Also wondering why he isn't using a fuel shutoff
to shutdown like every diesel I've operated uses.

Great idea. Thanks.

I have added a fuel shutoff just 5 minutes ago. It helps in getting
the situation under control.


Didn't the engine have a spring loaded "damper" in the intake when you
got it?


yes, it does.

Detroit Diesel 3-53 would not stop after air intake closed? WTF?
 

On 2011-06-23, dan wrote:
Ignoramus31413 wrote in
rec.crafts.metalworking on Tue, 21 Jun 2011 23:38:18 -0500:

The issue is that one injector was stuck. I will probably just get a
new one if I cannot take care of this one easily.

That should be an easy fix. I think you will soon have a great
machine.

Yep, fixed it, runs great now.

i

Detroit Diesel 3-53 would not stop after air intake closed? WTF?
 

On 2011-06-23, news.easynews.com wrote:

"john B." wrote in message
...
On Wed, 22 Jun 2011 04:04:12 GMT, (dan) wrote:

Ignoramus31413 wrote in
rec.crafts.metalworking on Tue, 21 Jun 2011 13:01:38 -0500:

First, I added a ball valve on fuel intake, so I can easily shut off
or restrict fuel at any moment.

That's good. But figure out how it's supposed to be shut off.
Cutting off the fuel before the injector pump starves the injector
pump of its only source of lubricant. At slow speeds you can get away
with it, but if you had it at high RPMs and did it too often, you
might kill the injector pump. More of an issue with a truck or
something if you were to run the tank dry and coast down a hill.

You should be able to hold the throttle (linkage to the injector
pump?) closed, to stop the engine.


There is no injector pump on a Detroit Diesel :-)

True, but there is a feul pump, and the injectors use fuel for lubrication.
Hard for either of them to run dry. Also killing a Detroit with a board, or
simular object over the air inlet is not recommended as it can ruin the oil
seals in the blower.
Iggy, you need to get a manual and figure out how to set the governor, and
injector racks, but be carefull, I have seen guys set the governor on
Detroit diesels, and if done wrong they will go full throttle and the only
way to stop them is to shut of the fuel, or choke them like you are doing,
neither was is a good thing to do often.
with the Detroit3-53 to kill the engine the throttle needs to be brought
back past idle and this will stop the injectors from injecting fuel into the
engine. The fuel ramp in the injector goes to zero fuel.
I have set the governors on this style of Detroit myself, but it was thirty
years ago!

Greg O


Yep, everything is exactly as you describe. I took the bad injector
out, fixed it, reassembled and now this engine runs like a champ.

i

Detroit Diesel 3-53 would not stop after air intake closed? WTF?
 

john B. wrote in
rec.crafts.metalworking on Thu, 23 Jun 2011 09:51:04 +0700:

You should be able to hold the throttle (linkage to the injector
pump?) closed, to stop the engine.


There is no injector pump on a Detroit Diesel :-)

I didn't know that. How does it work?

--

Dan H.
northshore MA.

Detroit Diesel 3-53 would not stop after air intake closed? WTF?
 

On 2011-06-23, dan wrote:
john B. wrote in
rec.crafts.metalworking on Thu, 23 Jun 2011 09:51:04 +0700:

You should be able to hold the throttle (linkage to the injector
pump?) closed, to stop the engine.


There is no injector pump on a Detroit Diesel :-)

I didn't know that. How does it work?


There is a fuel pump that delivers a lot of fuel to injectors.

The injectors take a small part of that and, when they are depressed
by special arms, shoot a little bit of fuel into the cylinders. In
other words, injectors are the pumps.

i

Detroit Diesel 3-53 would not stop after air intake closed? WTF?
 

On Thu, 23 Jun 2011 09:51:04 +0700, john B.
wrote:

On Wed, 22 Jun 2011 04:04:12 GMT, (dan) wrote:

Ignoramus31413 wrote in
rec.crafts.metalworking on Tue, 21 Jun 2011 13:01:38 -0500:

First, I added a ball valve on fuel intake, so I can easily shut off
or restrict fuel at any moment.

That's good. But figure out how it's supposed to be shut off.
Cutting off the fuel before the injector pump starves the injector
pump of its only source of lubricant. At slow speeds you can get away
with it, but if you had it at high RPMs and did it too often, you
might kill the injector pump. More of an issue with a truck or
something if you were to run the tank dry and coast down a hill.

You should be able to hold the throttle (linkage to the injector
pump?) closed, to stop the engine.


There is no injector pump on a Detroit Diesel :-)
No. but there IS a "control rack".Which should allow total fuel
cut-off to all injectors at once.

Detroit Diesel 3-53 would not stop after air intake closed? WTF?
 

On 2011-06-23, wrote:
On Thu, 23 Jun 2011 09:51:04 +0700, john B.
wrote:

On Wed, 22 Jun 2011 04:04:12 GMT, (dan) wrote:

Ignoramus31413 wrote in
rec.crafts.metalworking on Tue, 21 Jun 2011 13:01:38 -0500:

First, I added a ball valve on fuel intake, so I can easily shut off
or restrict fuel at any moment.

That's good. But figure out how it's supposed to be shut off.
Cutting off the fuel before the injector pump starves the injector
pump of its only source of lubricant. At slow speeds you can get away
with it, but if you had it at high RPMs and did it too often, you
might kill the injector pump. More of an issue with a truck or
something if you were to run the tank dry and coast down a hill.

You should be able to hold the throttle (linkage to the injector
pump?) closed, to stop the engine.


There is no injector pump on a Detroit Diesel :-)
No. but there IS a "control rack".Which should allow total fuel
cut-off to all injectors at once.

If the injectors are not stuck, that is.

i

Detroit Diesel 3-53 would not stop after air intake closed? WTF?
 

Ignoramus1214 wrote in
rec.crafts.metalworking on Thu, 23 Jun 2011 17:28:16 -0500:

There is no injector pump on a Detroit Diesel :-)

I didn't know that. How does it work?


There is a fuel pump that delivers a lot of fuel to injectors.

The injectors take a small part of that and, when they are depressed
by special arms, shoot a little bit of fuel into the cylinders. In
other words, injectors are the pumps.

Wow, never heard about that kind before. I guess I learned something
new today.
Ok, so how does the throttle work?
Vary the fuel pressure? Or the duration of the spray pulse?

How is the spray pulse timed? A lobe(s) on the camshaft?
--

Dan H.
northshore MA.

Detroit Diesel 3-53 would not stop after air intake closed? WTF?
 

On Thu, 23 Jun 2011 19:07:36 -0500, Ignoramus1214
wrote:

On 2011-06-23, wrote:
On Thu, 23 Jun 2011 09:51:04 +0700, john B.
wrote:

On Wed, 22 Jun 2011 04:04:12 GMT, (dan) wrote:

Ignoramus31413 wrote in
rec.crafts.metalworking on Tue, 21 Jun 2011 13:01:38 -0500:

First, I added a ball valve on fuel intake, so I can easily shut off
or restrict fuel at any moment.

That's good. But figure out how it's supposed to be shut off.
Cutting off the fuel before the injector pump starves the injector
pump of its only source of lubricant. At slow speeds you can get away
with it, but if you had it at high RPMs and did it too often, you
might kill the injector pump. More of an issue with a truck or
something if you were to run the tank dry and coast down a hill.

You should be able to hold the throttle (linkage to the injector
pump?) closed, to stop the engine.


There is no injector pump on a Detroit Diesel :-)
No. but there IS a "control rack".Which should allow total fuel
cut-off to all injectors at once.

If the injectors are not stuck, that is.

i
Exactly what I meant by "should"

Detroit Diesel 3-53 would not stop after air intake closed? WTF?
 

On 2011-06-24, dan wrote:
Ignoramus1214 wrote in
rec.crafts.metalworking on Thu, 23 Jun 2011 17:28:16 -0500:

There is no injector pump on a Detroit Diesel :-)

I didn't know that. How does it work?


There is a fuel pump that delivers a lot of fuel to injectors.

The injectors take a small part of that and, when they are depressed
by special arms, shoot a little bit of fuel into the cylinders. In
other words, injectors are the pumps.

Wow, never heard about that kind before. I guess I learned something
new today.
Ok, so how does the throttle work?
Vary the fuel pressure? Or the duration of the spray pulse?

How is the spray pulse timed? A lobe(s) on the camshaft?

There is no throttle, but there is a governor. The governor exerts
force on the rack, which in turns pulls those little things that stick
out of the injectors, and regulate the amount of fuel injected.

i

Detroit Diesel 3-53 would not stop after air intake closed? WTF?
 

"dan" wrote in message
...
john B. wrote in
rec.crafts.metalworking on Thu, 23 Jun 2011 09:51:04 +0700:

You should be able to hold the throttle (linkage to the injector
pump?) closed, to stop the engine.


There is no injector pump on a Detroit Diesel :-)

I didn't know that. How does it work?

--

Dan H.
northshore MA.

There is a fuel pump that supplies fuel to the individual injectors through
a passage in the head. A camshaft pushes down a plunger, or piston on each
injector at the apropriate time, a few degrees before the piston reaches top
dead cnter of it's stroke. The governor controls the amount of fuel injected
by variing the amout each injector delivers into the engine. Each injector
has a small rack and pinion setup and the governor moves this rack back and
forth. Internal to each injector is a ramp of sorts that is controlled by
the rack and pinion that effectively closes off more or less of the plunger
bore to change the amount of fuel. To shut the engine down the rack is
retracted and no fuel is injected.

Greg O

Detroit Diesel 3-53 would not stop after air intake closed? WTF?
 

On Tue, 21 Jun 2011 20:37:40 +0100, David Billington
wrote:


I thought that it was all about just sucking oil, not air. That is a
very scary possibility.

A chap I used to know, now dead, told me lots of interesting stories
from when he worked in construction and some of those included large
earth moving machinery where the diesel engines ran away. In one case
the operator realised what was happening and drove the machine into the
tunnel wall to stall it before any serious problems occurred. Those big
machines in question had oil bath air filters IIRC and in some cases the
engine would start to run on the oil in those. The chap had an
interesting life, he said on another occasion he was almost killed by
shrapnel from a generator donkey engine exploding when someone used
compressed oxygen to start the genset rather than compressed air, that
was when he was working on the Aswan dam.


I had a 398 Cat run away when a guy left a propane line too close to the
intake and it wore a nice big hole in the hose....that big ol kitty cat
was purring..and it started roaring in a very very short amount of time.

That 398 ran all the running gear on an oil rig I was working derrick
on.


--
Maxim 12: A soft answer turneth away wrath.
Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head.

Detroit Diesel 3-53 would not stop after air intake closed? WTF?
 

On Fri, 24 Jun 2011 02:27:37 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Tue, 21 Jun 2011 20:37:40 +0100, David Billington
wrote:


I thought that it was all about just sucking oil, not air. That is a
very scary possibility.

A chap I used to know, now dead, told me lots of interesting stories
from when he worked in construction and some of those included large
earth moving machinery where the diesel engines ran away. In one case
the operator realised what was happening and drove the machine into the
tunnel wall to stall it before any serious problems occurred. Those big
machines in question had oil bath air filters IIRC and in some cases the
engine would start to run on the oil in those. The chap had an
interesting life, he said on another occasion he was almost killed by
shrapnel from a generator donkey engine exploding when someone used
compressed oxygen to start the genset rather than compressed air, that
was when he was working on the Aswan dam.


I had a 398 Cat run away when a guy left a propane line too close to the
intake and it wore a nice big hole in the hose....that big ol kitty cat
was purring..and it started roaring in a very very short amount of time.

That 398 ran all the running gear on an oil rig I was working derrick
on.

A drilling rig? No compound?

Detroit Diesel 3-53 would not stop after air intake closed? WTF?
 

On Fri, 24 Jun 2011 19:02:15 +0700, john B.
wrote:

On Fri, 24 Jun 2011 02:27:37 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Tue, 21 Jun 2011 20:37:40 +0100, David Billington
wrote:


I thought that it was all about just sucking oil, not air. That is a
very scary possibility.

A chap I used to know, now dead, told me lots of interesting stories
from when he worked in construction and some of those included large
earth moving machinery where the diesel engines ran away. In one case
the operator realised what was happening and drove the machine into the
tunnel wall to stall it before any serious problems occurred. Those big
machines in question had oil bath air filters IIRC and in some cases the
engine would start to run on the oil in those. The chap had an
interesting life, he said on another occasion he was almost killed by
shrapnel from a generator donkey engine exploding when someone used
compressed oxygen to start the genset rather than compressed air, that
was when he was working on the Aswan dam.


I had a 398 Cat run away when a guy left a propane line too close to the
intake and it wore a nice big hole in the hose....that big ol kitty cat
was purring..and it started roaring in a very very short amount of time.

That 398 ran all the running gear on an oil rig I was working derrick
on.

A drilling rig? No compound?

Ayup..drilling rig.

Compound?

Gunner

--
Maxim 12: A soft answer turneth away wrath.
Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head.

Detroit Diesel 3-53 would not stop after air intake closed? WTF?
 

On Fri, 24 Jun 2011 13:24:44 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Fri, 24 Jun 2011 19:02:15 +0700, john B.
wrote:

On Fri, 24 Jun 2011 02:27:37 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Tue, 21 Jun 2011 20:37:40 +0100, David Billington
wrote:


I thought that it was all about just sucking oil, not air. That is a
very scary possibility.

A chap I used to know, now dead, told me lots of interesting stories
from when he worked in construction and some of those included large
earth moving machinery where the diesel engines ran away. In one case
the operator realised what was happening and drove the machine into the
tunnel wall to stall it before any serious problems occurred. Those big
machines in question had oil bath air filters IIRC and in some cases the
engine would start to run on the oil in those. The chap had an
interesting life, he said on another occasion he was almost killed by
shrapnel from a generator donkey engine exploding when someone used
compressed oxygen to start the genset rather than compressed air, that
was when he was working on the Aswan dam.


I had a 398 Cat run away when a guy left a propane line too close to the
intake and it wore a nice big hole in the hose....that big ol kitty cat
was purring..and it started roaring in a very very short amount of time.

That 398 ran all the running gear on an oil rig I was working derrick
on.

A drilling rig? No compound?

Ayup..drilling rig.

Compound?

Gunner


Sure, see
http://www.energmart.com/a,12,Drilli...7%E2%80%99.htm
for the inventory of a small (800 HP) rig.

The compound connects the main engines to the rest of the rig, and
allows the use of several engines to power the rig.

Detroit Diesel 3-53 would not stop after air intake closed? WTF?
 

On Sat, 25 Jun 2011 09:00:09 +0700, john B.
wrote:

on.

A drilling rig? No compound?

Ayup..drilling rig.

Compound?

Gunner


Sure, see
http://www.energmart.com/a,12,Drilli...7%E2%80%99.htm
for the inventory of a small (800 HP) rig.

The compound connects the main engines to the rest of the rig, and
allows the use of several engines to power the rig.

absolutely correct. Stroke moment on my part.

Gunner

--
Maxim 12: A soft answer turneth away wrath.
Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head.

Detroit Diesel 3-53 would not stop after air intake closed? WTF?
 

On 06/21/2011 12:37 PM, Pete C. wrote:



I would guess that with the valve cover off, the engine is breathing
through the "breather" hose on the valve cover?
Normally the breather would be applying vacuum to the valve area&
crankcase and only "breathing" the limited amount of blowby from past the
rings... but with the valve cover off it's "breathing" fresh air?

That sounds plausible. Also wondering why he isn't using a fuel shutoff
to shutdown like every diesel I've operated uses.

Many Detroit Diesels from that period had an emergency shutdown that
moved little arms into the path of the valve spring retainers, jamming
one valve per cylinder partly open , and in so doing, killing the
compression. That may be what Iggy was referring to as something moving
in the valve cover area. Taking off the valve cover on those
engines definitely would defeat that mechanism.

Jon

Detroit Diesel 3-53 would not stop after air intake closed? WTF?
 

On 06/21/2011 01:01 PM, Ignoramus31413 wrote:


Lastly, even when the engine ran too fast and too loud, the output
pulleys seemed to rotate at a fairly reasonable speed. So perhaps I am
just a little bit too girly and too sensitive to the noise of a two
stroke diesel. But I do not want to take chances on this.

i

Oh, yes, if you are not a DD devotee, they sound WAYYY different from
conventional 4-stroke Diesels. The Roots blower is an integral part of
the engine, and has a distinctive and high sound. The engine is running
twice as many power strokes as a 4-stroke, and thus sounds twice as
fast. So, full power at near rated RPM sounds to the unexperienced to
be an engine well into a runaway when it is just running fine. (Your
neighbors are just going to LOVE you.....)

Jon