On Thursday, March 24, 2011 10:04:12 PM UTC-7, F. George McDuffee wrote:


=========
Another excellent argument for an AMCT [alternative minimum
corporate tax] possibly based on total domestic gross sales
rather than net domestic profit.


We have that right now in Oregon and it taxes "C" corps on their gross sales in Oregon. This is the second year in force because the legislature back dated the law! "S" corps and others pay a minimum of $150. I have had to borrow that amount because my company lost money.

As many "C" corps as possible have changed to "S" corps. Many co-ops have gone out of business. Many large wheat ranches, etc. have been sold to out of state corporations. They would have NO in state sales.

Of course, the lawyers, the "PC" professional corporations, are exempt!

What a screwed up mess.

Paul

KD7HB wrote:
On Thursday, March 24, 2011 10:04:12 PM UTC-7, F. George McDuffee wrote:

Another excellent argument for an AMCT [alternative minimum
corporate tax] possibly based on total domestic gross sales
rather than net domestic profit.


We have that right now in Oregon and it taxes "C" corps on their gross
sales in Oregon. This is the second year in force because the legislature
back dated the law! "S" corps and others pay a minimum of $150. I have had
to borrow that amount because my company lost money.

As many "C" corps as possible have changed to "S" corps. Many co-ops have
gone out of business. Many large wheat ranches, etc. have been sold to out
of state corporations. They would have NO in state sales.

Of course, the lawyers, the "PC" professional corporations, are exempt!

What a screwed up mess.

Why do people so steadfastly refuse that there's no such thing as a
corporate tax, at least not the way the politics of envy sees it. To
a corporation, no matter how much you tax them, from their point of
view, it's just part of the cost of doing business, and the only place
they get the money to pay it is from their customers. When you raise
corporate taxes, all you're doing is raising the price you pay for
products.

Thanks,
Rich

On Mar 25, 1:08*pm, Rich Grise wrote:
KD7HB wrote:
On Thursday, March 24, 2011 10:04:12 PM UTC-7, F. George McDuffee wrote:

Another excellent argument for an AMCT [alternative minimum
corporate tax] possibly based on total domestic gross sales
rather than net domestic profit.

We have that right now in Oregon and it taxes "C" corps on their gross
sales in Oregon. This is the second year in force because the legislature
back dated the law! "S" corps and others pay a minimum of $150. I have had
to borrow that amount because my company lost money.

As many "C" corps as possible have changed to "S" corps. Many co-ops have
gone out of business. Many large wheat ranches, etc. have been sold to out
of state corporations. They would have NO in state sales.

Of course, the lawyers, the "PC" professional corporations, are exempt!

What a screwed up mess.

Why do people so steadfastly refuse that there's no such thing as a
corporate tax, at least not the way the politics of envy sees it. To
a corporation, no matter how much you tax them, from their point of
view, it's just part of the cost of doing business, and the only place
they get the money to pay it is from their customers. When you raise
corporate taxes, all you're doing is raising the price you pay for
products.

Thanks,
Rich- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And your (conservative pro-business) point IS?

What is the problem for requiring those who use public services to pay
for them?

And businesses use all of them.

TMT

Too_Many_Tools wrote:

And your (conservative pro-business) point IS?

That when you tax a corporation, YOU pay the tax anyway.

Hope this is a bit clearer.

Cheers!
Rich

On 3/25/2011 1:08 PM, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
On Mar 25, 1:08 pm, Rich wrote:
KD7HB wrote:
On Thursday, March 24, 2011 10:04:12 PM UTC-7, F. George McDuffee wrote:

Another excellent argument for an AMCT [alternative minimum
corporate tax] possibly based on total domestic gross sales
rather than net domestic profit.

We have that right now in Oregon and it taxes "C" corps on their gross
sales in Oregon. This is the second year in force because the legislature
back dated the law! "S" corps and others pay a minimum of $150. I have had
to borrow that amount because my company lost money.

As many "C" corps as possible have changed to "S" corps. Many co-ops have
gone out of business. Many large wheat ranches, etc. have been sold to out
of state corporations. They would have NO in state sales.

Of course, the lawyers, the "PC" professional corporations, are exempt!

What a screwed up mess.

Why do people so steadfastly refuse that there's no such thing as a
corporate tax, at least not the way the politics of envy sees it. To
a corporation, no matter how much you tax them, from their point of
view, it's just part of the cost of doing business, and the only place
they get the money to pay it is from their customers. When you raise
corporate taxes, all you're doing is raising the price you pay for
products.

Thanks,
Rich- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And your (conservative pro-business) point IS?

What is the problem for requiring those who use public services to pay
for them?

And businesses use all of them.

TMT


The ignorant slob defenders of business are always using this line of
bull puckey to attack taxes on business. But when you hear real
businessmen talk about taxes they don't ever say that. I have heard many
CEOs in interviews talk about taxes and none of them say, "oh, we don't
care about taxes because we just pass them all on to the the consumer by
raising prices, so we don't really pay any taxes anyway". The don't say
that because it isn't true. Businesses can only pass so much on to the
consumer. Taxes are important to business and they have to plan for
them. They pay them. Like the rest of us they try to reduce and avoid
them but they know they are going to pay them. So the idea they just
pass all taxes on to the public is a crock.

Hawke

big snip

On Fri, 25 Mar 2011 11:08:05 -0700, Rich Grise
wrote:
snip

Why do people so steadfastly refuse that there's no such thing as a
corporate tax, at least not the way the politics of envy sees it. To
a corporation, no matter how much you tax them, from their point of
view, it's just part of the cost of doing business, and the only place
they get the money to pay it is from their customers. When you raise
corporate taxes, all you're doing is raising the price you pay for
products.

Thanks,
Rich
=================
News item on America's tin cup / tax evading / no-load
corporations that should be of interest:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/thenation/20...enation/159503
snip
“I’m tired of people calling for shared sacrifice and it’s
all coming from the workers and nothing’s coming from the
top,” says protester Dave Sonenberg. “I’m sick of companies
like Bank of America not paying their taxes.”“I’m tired of
people calling for shared sacrifice and it’s all coming from
the workers and nothing’s coming from the top,” says
protester Dave Sonenberg. “I’m sick of companies like Bank
of America not paying their taxes.”
snip
Bank of America hasn’t paid a nickel in federal income taxes
for the past two years, and in fact raked in an additional
$1 billion in tax “benefits.” The bank is enjoying these
profits after accepting $45 billion from taxpayers, which
the company then got to count as a deduction when they paid
back the money.

Big corporations get to play by a whole different set of
rules, says tax expert Bob Willens of New York-based Robert
Willens LLC:

It's also not unusual for a company to pay no federal taxes,
while still paying state and local taxes, Willens said.
Items that can be deducted for federal purposes aren't
always deductible for state and local returns, he said.
State taxes can also be based on the amount of capital
deployed in a state, not pre-tax income.
snip
This is why two-thirds of corporations in America pay no
federal income taxes. If they were forced to, we're told,
the whole country would suffer. Jobs would be lost, salaries
slashed. Thank heavens we’ve avoided such calamity by
allowing corporations to shape legislation in their favor.

In 2010, Bank of America handed out $2.2 million in campaign
contributions to congressional representatives and PACs (36
percent went to Democrats, 64 percent to Republicans). By
throwing around that much cash, huge companies like BoA have
a big say when it comes to crafting legislation that permits
them to escape paying taxes, according to US Uncut organizer
J.A. Myerson.
snip
-- Unka George (George McDuffee)
...............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

F. George McDuffee wrote:

“I’m tired of people calling for shared sacrifice and it’s
all coming from the workers and nothing’s coming from the
top,” says protester Dave Sonenberg. “I’m sick of companies
like Bank of America not paying their taxes.

But, do the people who work there, and the CEOs and stuff, pay
individual taxes? Aren't _they_ the ones you're ****ed off at?

A corporation, despite the legalese defining them, is an inanimate
object.

Every time you tax a corporation, the one that ends up paying
that tax is _YOU_.

Why can't people get that through their thick skulls?

I _do_ have the solution, however:

The OUTGO tax:
http://mysite.verizon.net/richgrise/TaxTheRich!.html

Cheers!
Rich

"Rich Grise" wrote in message
...
F. George McDuffee wrote:

"I'm tired of people calling for shared sacrifice and it's
all coming from the workers and nothing's coming from the
top," says protester Dave Sonenberg. "I'm sick of companies
like Bank of America not paying their taxes.

But, do the people who work there, and the CEOs and stuff, pay
individual taxes? Aren't _they_ the ones you're ****ed off at?

A corporation, despite the legalese defining them, is an inanimate
object.

But they cost us a lot of money just to support them, from transportation
infrastructure, to communications, to a judiciary, to regulation of money,
to military defense, to fire protection, etc., etc., etc.

Institutions, especially commercial ones, create social costs of their own.
The individuals who collect the dividends ALSO create social costs of their
own.


Every time you tax a corporation, the one that ends up paying
that tax is _YOU_.

No, because the standard set for return on capital includes the cost of
taxes. Decrease taxes across the board, and capital just demands a higher
return -- across the board.

The stability that results from our enormous expenditures for corporations'
benefit reduces interest rates at both ends -- in terms of their cost of
money, and in terms of the accepted return on capital. In fact, they're two
sides of the same coin.


Why can't people get that through their thick skulls?

Because it's more right-wing crapola, perpetuated by people who don't think
much or study history at all.


I _do_ have the solution, however:

The OUTGO tax:
http://mysite.verizon.net/richgrise/TaxTheRich!.html

Great. You could hardly come up with a better plan to destroy the US
economy -- which is 70% consumption.

If you want to go for a VAT or a sales tax like the "National Purchase Tax,"
one big enough to replace all other taxes, you'd better first figure out
how to make up a big chunk of it with exports. And here's a clue: If we
tried it, our export markets would dry up faster than they could slam the
doors.

It's an interesting fantasy, but the consequence would be nothing more than
a shell game.

--
Ed Huntress

On 3/27/2011 3:58 PM, Rich Grise wrote:
F. George McDuffee wrote:

“I’m tired of people calling for shared sacrifice and it’s
all coming from the workers and nothing’s coming from the
top,” says protester Dave Sonenberg. “I’m sick of companies
like Bank of America not paying their taxes.

But, do the people who work there, and the CEOs and stuff, pay
individual taxes? Aren't _they_ the ones you're ****ed off at?

A corporation, despite the legalese defining them, is an inanimate
object.

Every time you tax a corporation, the one that ends up paying
that tax is _YOU_.

Why can't people get that through their thick skulls?


Maybe because what you think is wrong. You ever think of that? Here's
what some of us would like to know why you can't get something through
your thick skull. If corporations don't pay taxes, because according to
some, they just pass any taxes on to the consumer, then why would
corporations care if they are taxed? Why would a corporation try to
avoid taxes? Since they don't really pay any, why would they bother
trying to avoid them? It isn't rational to try to avoid something that
has no effect on you. So if no corporation pays any taxes but just
passes them on why would corporations do so much to avoid having to pay
any taxes. It defies logic. If taxes are all passed on it wouldn't make
any difference to a business how high taxes are.

Since that's the case, that corporations go to extreme measures to avoid
taxes that only means one thing. They do pay taxes. One way or another
they do pay taxes. If they didn't they wouldn't bother trying to avoid
them. So if corporations are willing to go to extremes to avoid taxes
maybe you should understand why they would do that. Think about it and
get back to us.

Hawke

Rich Grise wrote:

F. George McDuffee wrote:

“I’m tired of people calling for shared sacrifice and it’s
all coming from the workers and nothing’s coming from the
top,” says protester Dave Sonenberg. “I’m sick of companies
like Bank of America not paying their taxes.

But, do the people who work there, and the CEOs and stuff, pay
individual taxes? Aren't _they_ the ones you're ****ed off at?

A corporation, despite the legalese defining them, is an inanimate
object.

But don't stop a corporation from buying an election that would violate
its first amendment rights.



Every time you tax a corporation, the one that ends up paying
that tax is _YOU_.

Even when that is true (and to certain extent it is True) - so what?
If you tax me (a private consultant) I just pass the bill on
to my clients - So by your reasoning
I should tell the IRS to **** off

It is more efficient to tax big corporations
It would be most efficient to send the oil companies
one whopping big tax bill than trying to collect it
from millions as they purchase various petroleum products

If you tax workers that just means they need to have more pay
and that aggregate upward pressure on wages
just ends up as part of the cost of the product
That fact is a basis for a good argument to tax the employer
and not the employee, because taxing wages
is one factor in driving jobs overseas.



Why can't people get that through their thick skulls?

Dunno, mebbe cause yu splain it fo weell???



I _do_ have the solution, however:

The OUTGO tax:
http://mysite.verizon.net/richgrise/TaxTheRich!.html

Its called a Value Added Tax (VAT)
VAT is what those socialist countries in Europe use
as a major source of govt revenues
It does a better job of keeping jobs because
you collect a tax on the value added overseas
as well as domestic production

-jim



Cheers!
Rich

jim wrote:

But don't stop a corporation from buying an election that would violate
its first amendment rights.

Actually, it's the unions that are buying the liberal/socialist politicians.
The corporations are only trying to protect themselves from the
institutionalized theivery.

Hope This Helps!
Rich
--
Tax the Rich!
http://mysite.verizon.net/richgrise/TaxTheRich!.html

On Fri, 25 Mar 2011 09:55:10 -0700 (PDT), KD7HB
wrote:

On Thursday, March 24, 2011 10:04:12 PM UTC-7, F. George McDuffee wrote:


=========
Another excellent argument for an AMCT [alternative minimum
corporate tax] possibly based on total domestic gross sales
rather than net domestic profit.


We have that right now in Oregon and it taxes "C" corps on their gross sales in Oregon. This is the second year in force because the legislature back dated the law! "S" corps and others pay a minimum of $150. I have had to borrow that amount because my company lost money.

As many "C" corps as possible have changed to "S" corps. Many co-ops have gone out of business. Many large wheat ranches, etc. have been sold to out of state corporations. They would have NO in state sales.

Of course, the lawyers, the "PC" professional corporations, are exempt!

What a screwed up mess.

Paul
================
see
http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_theloo...BhaWRub3RheGU-
snip
As Washington worries about the United States' growing
deficit problem, there's mounting evidence the government is
failing to collect taxes from wealthy individuals and
corporations. A piece in today's New York Times by David
Kocieniewski outlines how G.E. skirted paying any taxes on
$5.1 billion in profits in 2010--in addition to claiming a
$3.2 billion tax credit.
snip
------------
The general rule must be "if you're gonna' play then you
gotta' pay."

Particularly at the municipal and state levels, corporations
expect/demand governmental services such as law enforcement,
civil/criminal courts, emergency services such as fire and
medical, and obtain the benefits of universal education in
their work force. It seems only reasonable that part of
their normal business expenses include reasonable taxes to
help pay for these benefits.


-- Unka George (George McDuffee)
...............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

On Mar 25, 3:10*pm, F. George McDuffee gmcduf...@mcduffee-
associates.us wrote:
On Fri, 25 Mar 2011 09:55:10 -0700 (PDT), KD7HB





wrote:
On Thursday, March 24, 2011 10:04:12 PM UTC-7, F. George McDuffee wrote:

=========
Another excellent argument for an AMCT [alternative minimum
corporate tax] possibly based on total domestic gross sales
rather than net domestic profit. *

We have that right now in Oregon and it taxes "C" corps on their gross sales in Oregon. This is the second year in force because the legislature back dated the law! "S" corps and others pay a minimum of $150. I have had to borrow that amount because my company lost money.

As many "C" corps as possible have changed to "S" corps. Many co-ops have gone out of business. Many large wheat ranches, etc. have been sold to out of state corporations. They would have NO in state sales.

Of course, the lawyers, the "PC" professional corporations, are exempt!

What a screwed up mess.

Paul

================
seehttp://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/g-e-paid-no-taxes-on-5-1-bil....
snip
As Washington worries about the United States' growing
deficit problem, there's mounting evidence the government is
failing to collect taxes from wealthy individuals and
corporations. A piece in today's New York Times by David
Kocieniewski outlines how G.E. skirted paying any taxes on
$5.1 billion in profits in 2010--in addition to claiming a
$3.2 billion tax credit.
snip
------------
The general rule must be "if you're gonna' play then you
gotta' pay." *

Particularly at the municipal and state levels, corporations
expect/demand governmental services such as law enforcement,
civil/criminal courts, emergency services such as fire and
medical, and obtain the benefits of universal education in
their work force. *It seems only reasonable that part of
their normal business expenses include reasonable taxes to
help pay for these benefits.

-- Unka George *(George McDuffee)
..............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I strongly agree.

TMT