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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
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Japans Nuclear problem in simple language.
http://bravenewclimate.com/2011/03/1...e-explanation/
Now I'll wait for the doom and gloom crowd to start wailing.... -- Steve W. |
#2
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Japans Nuclear problem in simple language.
On Mon, 14 Mar 2011 15:34:38 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote: http://bravenewclimate.com/2011/03/1...e-explanation/ Now I'll wait for the doom and gloom crowd to start wailing.... Read that first thing this morning. How thick is the graphite, metal, and concrete. 4,000 degree F.+ melt for how long? Has it been done before? Still, that sounds like Air Force and airline pilots wouldn't make it till retirement. That is if a couple of beers is like tail gating out at the plant. SW |
#3
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Japans Nuclear problem in simple language.
Sunworshipper wrote:
On Mon, 14 Mar 2011 15:34:38 -0400, "Steve W." http://bravenewclimate.com/2011/03/1...e-explanation/ Now I'll wait for the doom and gloom crowd to start wailing.... Read that first thing this morning. How thick is the graphite, metal, and concrete. 4,000 degree F.+ melt for how long? Has it been done before? Still, that sounds like Air Force and airline pilots wouldn't make it till retirement. That is if a couple of beers is like tail gating out at the plant. You didn't read the article either, did you? Or at least, if you did, you obviously didn't grasp the facts. Yeah, nuclear power has risks - so do solar panels and wind turbines and cars. Cars kill 50,000 people every year - should we ban them too? Thanks, Rich |
#4
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Japans Nuclear problem in simple language.
On Mon, 14 Mar 2011 16:03:34 -0700, Rich Grise
wrote: Sunworshipper wrote: On Mon, 14 Mar 2011 15:34:38 -0400, "Steve W." http://bravenewclimate.com/2011/03/1...e-explanation/ Now I'll wait for the doom and gloom crowd to start wailing.... Read that first thing this morning. How thick is the graphite, metal, and concrete. 4,000 degree F.+ melt for how long? Has it been done before? Still, that sounds like Air Force and airline pilots wouldn't make it till retirement. That is if a couple of beers is like tail gating out at the plant. You didn't read the article either, did you? Or at least, if you did, you obviously didn't grasp the facts. Yeah, nuclear power has risks - so do solar panels and wind turbines and cars. Cars kill 50,000 people every year - should we ban them too? Thanks, Rich How do you figure? What did I get wrong? Sounds like you didn't understand it. Who said anything about banning them? SW |
#5
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Japans Nuclear problem in simple language.
"Steve W." wrote in message ... http://bravenewclimate.com/2011/03/1...e-explanation/ Now I'll wait for the doom and gloom crowd to start wailing.... -- Steve W. I appreciate someone tries to provide a technical explanation of what has happened free from errors in the major media. I do not appreciate a his apologists tone of "everything is under control now." This piece was written on 3/12 apparently just before the second explosion that injured 11 workers: "The plant is safe now and will stay safe." (that was the first bullet point in his summary) Also there is major discrepancy between this following statement of his and other reports of the radiation level on the ground and the report that workers were treated for radiation sickness: Quote There was and will *not* be any significant release of radioactivity. By "significant" I mean a level of radiation of more than what you would receive on - say - a long distance flight, or drinking a glass of beer that comes from certain areas with high levels of natural background radiation. Unquote I am not against nuclear power, but these sorts of statements which essentially say "trust us - every thing is hunky dory" are what make people deeply suspicious and antagonistic (especially when the plant explodes that same day and a third gets into trouble). |
#6
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Japans Nuclear problem in simple language.
anorton wrote: "Steve W." wrote in message ... http://bravenewclimate.com/2011/03/1...e-explanation/ Now I'll wait for the doom and gloom crowd to start wailing.... -- Steve W. I appreciate someone tries to provide a technical explanation of what has happened free from errors in the major media. I do not appreciate a his apologists tone of "everything is under control now." This piece was written on 3/12 apparently just before the second explosion that injured 11 workers: "The plant is safe now and will stay safe." (that was the first bullet point in his summary) Also there is major discrepancy between this following statement of his and other reports of the radiation level on the ground and the report that workers were treated for radiation sickness: Quote There was and will *not* be any significant release of radioactivity. By "significant" I mean a level of radiation of more than what you would receive on - say - a long distance flight, or drinking a glass of beer that comes from certain areas with high levels of natural background radiation. Unquote I am not against nuclear power, but these sorts of statements which essentially say "trust us - every thing is hunky dory" are what make people deeply suspicious and antagonistic (especially when the plant explodes that same day and a third gets into trouble). You're reading too much into the second explosion. One thing with Japanese culture is that they are very focused on following their procedures to the letter, and if the procedure said to vent the steam/hydrogen/oxygen into the reactor building vs. outside, that is what they would do, despite the fact that the procedure blew up the building on another reactor a couple days prior. I've not read any reports about anyone being treated for radiation sickness. I have read reports of people being checked for radioactive contamination and being given prophylactic stable iodine tablets to prevent uptake of any radioactive iodine that they might be exposed to. Reports I've read have indicated radiation levels well over background but far below any danger level at their peaks and those levels dropping rapidly. |
#7
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Japans Nuclear problem in simple language.
On 03/14/2011 02:16 PM, Pete C. wrote:
anorton wrote: "Steve wrote in message ... http://bravenewclimate.com/2011/03/1...e-explanation/ Now I'll wait for the doom and gloom crowd to start wailing.... -- Steve W. I appreciate someone tries to provide a technical explanation of what has happened free from errors in the major media. I do not appreciate a his apologists tone of "everything is under control now." This piece was written on 3/12 apparently just before the second explosion that injured 11 workers: "The plant is safe now and will stay safe." (that was the first bullet point in his summary) Also there is major discrepancy between this following statement of his and other reports of the radiation level on the ground and the report that workers were treated for radiation sickness: Quote There was and will *not* be any significant release of radioactivity. By "significant" I mean a level of radiation of more than what you would receive on - say - a long distance flight, or drinking a glass of beer that comes from certain areas with high levels of natural background radiation. Unquote I am not against nuclear power, but these sorts of statements which essentially say "trust us - every thing is hunky dory" are what make people deeply suspicious and antagonistic (especially when the plant explodes that same day and a third gets into trouble). You're reading too much into the second explosion. One thing with Japanese culture is that they are very focused on following their procedures to the letter, and if the procedure said to vent the steam/hydrogen/oxygen into the reactor building vs. outside, that is what they would do, despite the fact that the procedure blew up the building on another reactor a couple days prior. I've not read any reports about anyone being treated for radiation sickness. I have read reports of people being checked for radioactive contamination and being given prophylactic stable iodine tablets to prevent uptake of any radioactive iodine that they might be exposed to. Reports I've read have indicated radiation levels well over background but far below any danger level at their peaks and those levels dropping rapidly. And besides -- his "significant" probably means "massive fish die-offs, people not allowed to return to their homes, etc.", not "a few people get seriously crapped up". Even including Chernobyl, I suspect that fewer people have died from disease caused by nuclear power than have died from disease caused by fossil fuels. Even if you normalize by Joule of useful energy, I _still_ think that nuclear power does better. It's only when you normalize by "words out of Jane Fonda's mouth" that nuclear starts looking _really bad_. -- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com Do you need to implement control loops in software? "Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you. See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html |
#8
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Japans Nuclear problem in simple language.
On 2011-03-14, Tim Wescott wrote:
On 03/14/2011 02:16 PM, Pete C. wrote: anorton wrote: "Steve wrote in message ... http://bravenewclimate.com/2011/03/1...e-explanation/ Now I'll wait for the doom and gloom crowd to start wailing.... I appreciate someone tries to provide a technical explanation of what has happened free from errors in the major media. I do not appreciate a his apologists tone of "everything is under control now." This piece was written on 3/12 apparently just before the second explosion that injured 11 workers: "The plant is safe now and will stay safe." (that was the first bullet point in his summary) Also there is major discrepancy between this following statement of his and other reports of the radiation level on the ground and the report that workers were treated for radiation sickness: Quote There was and will *not* be any significant release of radioactivity. By "significant" I mean a level of radiation of more than what you would receive on - say - a long distance flight, or drinking a glass of beer that comes from certain areas with high levels of natural background radiation. Unquote I am not against nuclear power, but these sorts of statements which essentially say "trust us - every thing is hunky dory" are what make people deeply suspicious and antagonistic (especially when the plant explodes that same day and a third gets into trouble). You're reading too much into the second explosion. One thing with Japanese culture is that they are very focused on following their procedures to the letter, and if the procedure said to vent the steam/hydrogen/oxygen into the reactor building vs. outside, that is what they would do, despite the fact that the procedure blew up the building on another reactor a couple days prior. I've not read any reports about anyone being treated for radiation sickness. I have read reports of people being checked for radioactive contamination and being given prophylactic stable iodine tablets to prevent uptake of any radioactive iodine that they might be exposed to. Reports I've read have indicated radiation levels well over background but far below any danger level at their peaks and those levels dropping rapidly. And besides -- his "significant" probably means "massive fish die-offs, people not allowed to return to their homes, etc.", not "a few people get seriously crapped up". Even including Chernobyl, I suspect that fewer people have died from disease caused by nuclear power than have died from disease caused by fossil fuels. Even if you normalize by Joule of useful energy, I _still_ think that nuclear power does better. It's only when you normalize by "words out of Jane Fonda's mouth" that nuclear starts looking _really bad_. The big plus of the Japan situation, is that even if the worst happens -- the fuel waste rods catch on fire due to the waste fuel pond draining, and the reactors blow up, releasing hot fuel -- the station is on the Eastern coast of Japan and the stuff will likely just settle in the Pacific ocean. i |
#9
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Japans Nuclear problem in simple language.
Tim Wescott wrote:
And besides -- his "significant" probably means "massive fish die-offs, people not allowed to return to their homes, etc.", not "a few people get seriously crapped up". So, now you're a mind-reader too? Did you even read the article? Thanks, Rich |
#10
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Japans Nuclear problem in simple language.
Pete C. wrote:
I've not read any reports about anyone being treated for radiation sickness. I have read reports of people being checked for radioactive contamination and being given prophylactic stable iodine tablets to prevent uptake of any radioactive iodine that they might be exposed to. Reports I've read have indicated radiation levels well over background but far below any danger level at their peaks and those levels dropping rapidly. True, but the NIMBY mind is as impervious to facts as the Church of Warmingism is. I find it troubling that the warmingists are so dead-set against a power source that produces ZERO - count 'em - ZERO CO2 emissions. Isn't this also called "cognitive dissonance?" (now watch the flames and name-calling from the left wing...) Thanks, Richard the Dreaded Libertarian |
#11
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Japans Nuclear problem in simple language.
I wonder how many honor suicides will be performed?
Hari-Kari, did they call it? Muslims, do honor killings. Japanese, honor suicides. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Pete C." wrote in message ster.com... You're reading too much into the second explosion. One thing with Japanese culture is that they are very focused on following their procedures to the letter, |
#12
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Japans Nuclear problem in simple language.
On 2011-03-14, anorton wrote:
"Steve W." wrote in message ... http://bravenewclimate.com/2011/03/1...e-explanation/ Now I'll wait for the doom and gloom crowd to start wailing.... I appreciate someone tries to provide a technical explanation of what has happened free from errors in the major media. I do not appreciate a his apologists tone of "everything is under control now." This piece was written on 3/12 apparently just before the second explosion that injured 11 workers: "The plant is safe now and will stay safe." (that was the first bullet point in his summary) Also there is major discrepancy between this following statement of his and other reports of the radiation level on the ground and the report that workers were treated for radiation sickness: Quote There was and will *not* be any significant release of radioactivity. By "significant" I mean a level of radiation of more than what you would receive on - say - a long distance flight, or drinking a glass of beer that comes from certain areas with high levels of natural background radiation. Unquote I am not against nuclear power, but these sorts of statements which essentially say "trust us - every thing is hunky dory" are what make people deeply suspicious and antagonistic (especially when the plant explodes that same day and a third gets into trouble). A good point was made, that the "simple explanation" failed to anticipate the second building exploding. Secondly, ability to cool the steel enclosure with seawater, assumes that it is able to hold said water. That is a very questionable assumption, since piping that leads into it, has been damaged by the explosion. Thirdly, ability to pump water into or on the reactors, assumes, implicitly, that people can be there and work not too far from the reactors. As soon as something serious happens, and much more radiation is released, this will no longer be the case. People have to leave the area. Fourth, I really have to wonder, about the story mentioned in the explanation with mobile generators that were brought in and could not be used because "plugs did not fit". I just had a cable at home, where I had to fit a plug. I happened to have a box knife, which I used to strip the cable and fit the plug. I understand that the portable is probably a megawatt sized generator, 20 times bigger than my MEP-006A. Probably at least 200 amp, 7 kV, 3 phase cable. Or something like that. But come on, they could not fit a plug for hours? WTF? Nw I hear that the water pumps that pump that seawater, are failing for some strange reason. I am, personally, hopeful that we will be able to use nuclear energy and show the Arabs the middle finger. I am also assured that newer designs are better than those 40 year old designs. That said, I am not going to turn into a second Gunner or Tom and make stuff up, or put my head in the ass, just because it fits my belief system. As far as I can tell, to prevent a serious radiation release, several things have to be just right and done on time. That does not seem very likely here. i |
#13
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Japans Nuclear problem in simple language.
anorton wrote:
This piece was written on 3/12 apparently just before the second explosion that injured 11 workers: "The plant is safe now and will stay safe." (that was the first bullet point in his summary) I wonder why there's so much hype and hoopla about such a non-issue when there are hundreds of thousands of people displaced from their homes, without food or clean water, that have nothing to do with the power plants - IT'S AN EARTHQUAKE AND A TSUNAMI, FOLKS! I like the line, "An informed public is key to acceptance of nuclear energy." Well, we won't get this until we break the liberal/union deathgrip on our children's minds and the taxpayers' wallets. Thanks, Richard the Dreaded Libertarian |
#14
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Japans Nuclear problem in simple language.
Rich Grise wrote:
Well, we won't get this until we break the liberal/union deathgrip on our children's minds and the taxpayers' wallets. You want the taxpayers to finance nuclear energy? Private investors won't put their money down And I'm curious how unions grip children's minds and how that ties into nuclear energy Are you expecting children to build nuclear power plants? Thanks, Richard the Dreaded Libertarian sounds more like richard the socialist. |
#15
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Japans Nuclear problem in simple language.
On Mon, 14 Mar 2011 21:10:55 -0500, jim
wrote: SNIP You want the taxpayers to finance nuclear energy? Private investors won't put their money down SNIP The unstated assumption is that this is the "free market" at work {that the "free market" is always right...} and the "investors" are carefully calculating risk v reward. Because of the excessively high concentrations of wealth/income, disfunctional banks with toxic assets, financial/credit distortions because of the "carry trade," and the fact that many of the potential players have vested interests in existing technology such as coal, and the status quo, this does not appear to be the case. On the other hand attempts by government to operate anything on a continuing basis from the post office to Freddy and Fanny do not inspire much confidence either. However, the early years of some governmental authorities, such as the TVA [Tennessee Valley Authority[, GRDA [Grand River Dam Authority in Oklahoma], and the early decades of Freddy/Fanny do appear to have resulted in genuine economic advances for the bulk of the American people. One possible alternative is the creation of limited lifespan authorities or government sponsored enterprises [GSEs] to construct and operate a number of full scale pilot plants for coal liquifacation/synthetic petroleum, thorium molten salt fission reactors, and fissile material/rare earth recovery operations from [currently] industrial wastes such as fly ash, etc. to demonstrate the economic viability and safety of these processes. IMNSHO a very useful partnership with a thorium reactor authority would be with a proven record of successful operation of their municipal power system such as Los Angeles, with one or more of the reactors buried deeply underground for safety, but within the city limits, minimizing transmission losses and costs. Another possibility for coastal cities such as Los Angeles and New York with the availability of cheap nuclear power is desalinization of sea water, eliminating an enormous continuing municipal/state expense to impound and transport potable water long distances. As soon as profits begin to be generated, there will be a huge demand to privatize and expand these operations. When pigs fly... -- Unka George (George McDuffee) ............................... The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there. L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author. The Go-Between, Prologue (1953). |
#16
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Japans Nuclear problem in simple language.
"F. George McDuffee" wrote: On Mon, 14 Mar 2011 21:10:55 -0500, jim wrote: SNIP You want the taxpayers to finance nuclear energy? Private investors won't put their money down SNIP The unstated assumption is that this is the "free market" at work {that the "free market" is always right...} and the "investors" are carefully calculating risk v reward. Because of the excessively high concentrations of wealth/income, disfunctional banks with toxic assets, financial/credit distortions because of the "carry trade," and the fact that many of the potential players have vested interests in existing technology such as coal, and the status quo, this does not appear to be the case. There is no doubt that it is not a free market, but that doesn't mean market forces have disappeared. The lesson that wall street learned from 3 mile island incident is that the operators of a nuclear plant can turn a 1 billion dollar investment into a 2 billion dollar liability in just a couple hours. On the other hand attempts by government to operate anything on a continuing basis from the post office to Freddy and Fanny do not inspire much confidence either. However, the early years of some governmental authorities, such as the TVA [Tennessee Valley Authority[, GRDA [Grand River Dam Authority in Oklahoma], and the early decades of Freddy/Fanny do appear to have resulted in genuine economic advances for the bulk of the American people. The only way Nuclear power plants will be built in the US is if the government is the party responsible to clean up the type of mess that is now happening in Japan. But that sort of arrangement isn't going to sit well with the majority of the US public. If the arrangement is that as long as things go well the investors take their profits, but as soon as things go wrong the investors walk away and the govt. steps in and spends the billions to clean up and contain the mess then under that arrangement yes many power plants would be built. But if the investors are held responsible for cleaning up any mess thaty may occur they simply aren't going to build in the first place. One possible alternative is the creation of limited lifespan authorities or government sponsored enterprises [GSEs] to construct and operate a number of full scale pilot plants for coal liquifacation/synthetic petroleum, thorium molten salt fission reactors, and fissile material/rare earth recovery operations from [currently] industrial wastes such as fly ash, etc. to demonstrate the economic viability and safety of these processes. Sure but that is socialism. You want the government competing directly against the oil companies and immediately half the population of the US gets the image in their head that the oil companies are wounded baby birds that big bad government has knocked from their warm cozy nests. IMNSHO a very useful partnership with a thorium reactor authority would be with a proven record of successful operation of their municipal power system such as Los Angeles, with one or more of the reactors buried deeply underground for safety, but within the city limits, minimizing transmission losses and costs. Another possibility for coastal cities such as Los Angeles and New York with the availability of cheap nuclear power is desalinization of sea water, eliminating an enormous continuing municipal/state expense to impound and transport potable water long distances. As soon as profits begin to be generated, there will be a huge demand to privatize and expand these operations. You are beginning to sound like Gadaffi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Manmade_River When pigs fly... -- Unka George (George McDuffee) .............................. The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there. L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author. The Go-Between, Prologue (1953). |
#17
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Japans Nuclear problem in simple language.
jim wrote:
Rich Grise wrote: Well, we won't get this until we break the liberal/union deathgrip on our children's minds and the taxpayers' wallets. You want the taxpayers to finance nuclear energy? ****, NO!!! I don't want the taxpayers stuck with funding ANYTHING, not even Planned Parenthood! Private investors won't put their money down That's because of the mountains of red tape they'd have to plow through, which was put in place by politicians, bureaucrats, and NIMBYs. And I'm curious how unions grip children's minds By taking over the schools (at YOUR expense) and turning them into propaganda mills. and how that ties into nuclear energy The kids don't get a proper education - just "self-esteem" and socialist propaganda. Are you expecting children to build nuclear power plants? Next generation, yes. But that won't happen if they're programmed to be just another generation of GIMME! GIMME! GIMME! GIMME! GIMME! liberals. Thanks, Richard the Dreaded Libertarian sounds more like richard the socialist. You really don't have any idea what you're talking about, do you? Thanks, Rich |
#18
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Japans Nuclear problem in simple language.
Rich Grise wrote:
jim wrote: ? Rich Grise wrote: ? ?? Well, we won't get this until we break the liberal/union deathgrip on ?? our children's minds and the taxpayers' wallets. ? ? You want the taxpayers to finance nuclear energy? ****, NO!!! I don't want the taxpayers stuck with funding ANYTHING, not even Planned Parenthood! ? Private investors won't put their money down That's because of the mountains of red tape they'd have to plow through, which was put in place by politicians, bureaucrats, and NIMBYs. No its not. ? And I'm curious how unions grip children's minds By taking over the schools (at YOUR expense) and turning them into propaganda mills. Still bent out of shape that we in Wisconsin have a lot better schools than your sorry state does? ? and how that ties into nuclear energy The kids don't get a proper education - just "self-esteem" and socialist propaganda. Maybe in your state ? Are you expecting children to build nuclear power plants? Next generation, yes. But that won't happen if they're programmed to be just another generation of GIMME! GIMME! GIMME! GIMME! GIMME! liberals. You prefer they spend 12 yrs learning to do nothing but whining about government as you do? |
#19
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Japans Nuclear problem in simple language.
On Mar 14, 3:34*pm, "Steve W." wrote:
http://bravenewclimate.com/2011/03/1...e-explanation/ Now I'll wait for the doom and gloom crowd to start wailing.... -- Steve W. One positive thing which might come out this would be to get more people thinking about the safety, fuel cost, and low rad. waste advantages of LFTR vs present uranium fueled reactors. LFTR system design work certainly needs a boost to at least pilot scale, and may even justify a Manhatten Project level of support if pilot scale results support it. Combined with a large scale liquid fuels plants, (ala Los Alamos Green Freedom), pulling CO2 from the air or other carbon sources, we could make a big dent in our oil imports. The net zero CO2 fuels thus produced could be used with our existing infrastructure. Enough domestic thorium exists to fuel our country for 1000 years. Solar and Wind power are not likely to make up more than 5-10% of our electrical power generation unless we go back to pre industrial levels on power consumption. Electric cars are great for tree hugger types, but if the power to run them comes from a coal, or even a natural gas powered grid, they may emit more CO2 than a Hybrid of similar size. If you get less than 25% of the power plants thermal input out in the form of electricity to your power outlet, and then lose some more in AC to DC conversion, battery charging, and I2R losses how does this beat a hybrid with a 25% eff. gasoline engine let alone a 30% eff diesel Hybrid? (UhOh if forgot diesel is a dirty word with our EPA). Given the huge potential impact LFTR and liquid fuels generation could have on our economy I can not understand why I have not heard one iota about either from any mainstream "news" source or "alternative" energy show. I doubt 1 in 100 people in the US have ever even heard about LFTR. India and China are already putting money into research for LFTR's. Hopefully the containment vessels were undamaged in this quake, (which was 7X stronger than the design basis), and still do their job. In my experience, the Japanese do not scrimp on concrete or steel when designing for earthquakes. |
#20
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Japans Nuclear problem in simple language.
On Mon, 14 Mar 2011 15:15:04 -0700 (PDT), oldjag
wrote: snip Given the huge potential impact LFTR and liquid fuels generation could have on our economy I can not understand why I have not heard one iota about either from any mainstream "news" source or "alternative" energy show. snip so include some links. My email below include several. FWIW -- an email I sent to my congressional representatives on this follows. Feel free to use all or any part of it if you wish to write your own congresspeople. You can get their names and webmail URLS at http://senate.gov/ and http://house.gov/ Be sure and bookmark for easy future nagging. ----- start of email ----- Dear Senator (Representative): As I am sure you are too well aware, the economic recovery of the United States has been significantly retarded by a number of dubious "make-work" projects that have diverted money, manpower and attention away from productive and efficient/effective activities. Rather than simply complain about this, I have three proposals to both help insure American energy independence and to provide meaningful employment through domestic infrastructure improvement and basic industrial capacity expansion. Any one of these proposals is "stand alone," but if all three are implemented these should be highly synergistic. It is highly suggested that these projects be done through new limited life authorities or GSEs [government sponsored enterprises] with limited input from existing government agencies and private companies because the existing governmental Departments, Agencies, Administrations, etc., and the large, nominally American corporations, that should be promoting these activities are overly committed to the status quo, and are prone to obstructionism, timidity, obfuscation and delay, to protect on the one hand their bureaucratic "turf," and on the other hand their profits and the perceived value of their obsolescent processes/products/expertise. Because of the current "budget crunch," and a historical lack of any measurable results from its founding in 1977 to the present, it is further suggested that the funds currently allocated to the Department of Energy be redirected to these projects. http://www.cfo.doe.gov/budget/10budg...Highlights.pdf http://www.cfo.doe.gov/budget/10budget/start.htm In no particular order: · Contract with SASOL [a large South African corporation] to construct and initially operate several domestic US medium sized coal to petroleum conversion plants. These plants should be sited as close as possible to existing high production coal mines to minimize transportation costs. These plants will produce not only liquid fuels such as gasoline, diesel and JP4 jet fuel, but also feed stocks for our petrochemical industries. Note that the waste from this process will provide feedstock for the next suggested project. Coal to oil conversion is economically viable when the price exceeds about 50$US per bbl. The world price is currently about twice this. http://www.sasol.com/sasol_internet/...vid=1&rootid=1 · Commercialize one or more of the existing processes to extract uranium, thorium and the so-called rare earths from what are currently waste products such as power station fly ash and copper processing liquids. If the radionuclides are extracted, a public health benefit may also result, and a domestic source of rare earths is strategically important. http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/1997/fs163-97/FS-163-97.html http://www.indmin.com/Article/236289...rom-waste.html http://www.springerlink.com/content/g64832528l7l5682/ http://www.docstoc.com/docs/71797664...YL-PHOSPHONATE · Design for serial production and construct prototypes of moderate size molten salt cooled/moderated THORIUM fusion reactors. Because of safety concerns it is suggest that the working reactors and generators be sited far underground but close or even in [under] the major metro areas where the generated power is to be consumed to minimize power transmission losses. A thorium reactor generates very little nuclear waste, and this can be [re] processed on site eliminating any need for transportation or long-term storage of high-level nuclear wastes. Indeed, a molten salt thorium reactor can be used to dispose of much of the existing high-level nuclear waste, while extracting the considerable amount of energy this waste still contains, thus eliminating some contentious nuclear power issues such as the Yucca Mountain storage facility. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten_salt_reactor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorium_fuel_cycle http://energyfromthorium.com/joomla/...64&It emid=63 Even here it will be possible to contract with the current industry leaders in China and India for the construction of one or more domestic US prototype reactors. The US pioneered this technology at the Oak Ridge National Laboratories, but terminated/abandoned this work/technology in the late 1960s. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nl5DiTPw3dk http://www.thehindubusinessline.in/2...1051780100.htm http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/02/chi...nd-japans.html http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/20...thorium-power/ http://www.climateactionprogramme.or..._t echnology/ http://amrminerals.co.uk/assets/file...%202010%20.pdf http://amrminerals.co.uk/assets/file...oject-2011.pdf There is at least one domestic US private sector company engaged in thorium reactor research. http://www.bullfax.com/?q=node-can-t...nuclear-energy http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/...s-of-reactors/ I would be pleased to discuss these suggestions in greater detail with you or your staff. ----- end of email ----- As a general rule, unless you have some positive suggestions or alternatives to a problem, complaining is useless and even counter-productive. -- Unka George (George McDuffee) ............................... The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there. L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author. The Go-Between, Prologue (1953). |
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Japans Nuclear problem in simple language.
"F. George McDuffee" wrote: snipped Some add-ons to your proposals: - Define a standard for EV battery packs that are bottom accessible from the vehicles to allow for automated physical battery pack exchange at neighborhood EV "gas stations". This will allow an EV to fully "refuel" in the same time frame as a conventional liquid fueled auto, thus making the EVs vastly more useable and acceptable to the general public. Larger EVs i.e. light trucks can simply use two of the standard packs providing the same advantages. By putting all the standard batteries in a common pool, the issues of battery life to the consumer are eliminated and the service costs are spread across the entire pool, much like in the BBQ propane tank exchange or welding gas cylinder exchange models. - Provide free electricity from the new clean, green nuclear power sources to charge the battery packs at the neighborhood service stations, allowing the "fueling" cost to be limited to a cost similar to refueling a conventional vehicle. This will further encourage the use of EVs by a larger segment of the population. Subsidizing the purchase cost of the EVs is not recommended. - Provide discounted electricity from a separate power meter for both home EV charging and operation of high efficiency heat pumps. This will encourage replacement of oil and gas furnaces with more efficient and non polluting heat pumps, further reducing dependency on petroleum product. - Provide discounted electricity to encourage railroads to electrify more of their rail lines in the vicinity of densely populated areas. This will further reduce petroleum reliance as well as reduce pollution in denser areas. Reducing petroleum dependence and demand in these ways will also have the effect of reducing petroleum prices, which will help our economy by reducing shipping costs for goods since they all ultimately are shipped by semi at some point and EV semis won't be practical for some time. This will also serve to lower the profits of unfriendly petroleum friendly countries. |
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Japans Nuclear problem in simple language.
On Mon, 14 Mar 2011 17:49:58 -0600, "Pete C."
wrote: Some add-ons to your proposals: Reducing petroleum dependence and demand in these ways will also have the effect of reducing petroleum prices, which will help our economy by reducing shipping costs for goods since they all ultimately are shipped by semi at some point and EV semis won't be practical for some time. This will also serve to lower the profits of unfriendly petroleum friendly countries. There are at least some who believe the petroleum dependence of the US is the result of a secret agreement cooked up between Henry Kissinger when he was acting as SoS and the Arab oil producing countries. We....the US...will not develop our oil, but will buy it from you....the Arab counties....as long as you....the Arab counties....promise to keep oil sales denominated in dollars and to reinvest some of your oil proceeds in US Government Treasury bills, i.e., finance the public debt of the US. This is theorized to be a part of a giant financial double-cross that will be perpetrated against the Arab nations when the value of US T-Bills eventually crashes to worthlessness. Alaska is thought to have more crude the Saudi by persons of this persuasion. I am sort of prone to agree with this theory of US oil production. There are known reserves up there, and yet, nobody puts any taps in the ground. Why? Further, is oil a "fossil fuel" at all? Did all the dinosaurs go to Saudi Arabia, die, get covered with sand, and turn into oil? I doubt that. Oil is thought by many to be an abiotic resource created by microbes living deep in the Earth's crust and seeping up close to the surface in the various areas wherein oil is found. The Russians have done many deep deep wells in Siberia which seems to give credence to this theory of oil creation. Oil may, in fact, be a non-depletable resource. Dave |
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Japans Nuclear problem in simple language.
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Japans Nuclear problem in simple language.
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Japans Nuclear problem in simple language.
F. George McDuffee wrote:
On Mon, 14 Mar 2011 15:15:04 -0700 (PDT), oldjag wrote: snip Given the huge potential impact LFTR and liquid fuels generation could have on our economy I can not understand why I have not heard one iota about either from any mainstream "news" source or "alternative" energy show. snip so include some links. My email below include several. FWIW -- an email I sent to my congressional representatives on this follows. Feel free to use all or any part of it if you wish to write your own congresspeople. You can get their names and webmail URLS at http://senate.gov/ and http://house.gov/ Be sure and bookmark for easy future nagging. ----- start of email ----- Dear Senator (Representative): As I am sure you are too well aware, the economic recovery of the United States has been significantly retarded by a number of dubious "make-work" projects that have diverted money, manpower and attention away from productive and efficient/effective activities. Rather than simply complain about this, I have three proposals to both help insure American energy independence and to provide meaningful employment through domestic infrastructure improvement and basic industrial capacity expansion. Any one of these proposals is "stand alone," but if all three are implemented these should be highly synergistic. It is highly suggested that these projects be done through new limited life authorities or GSEs [government sponsored enterprises] with limited input from existing government agencies and private companies because the existing governmental Departments, Agencies, Administrations, etc., and the large, nominally American corporations, that should be promoting these activities are overly committed to the status quo, and are prone to obstructionism, timidity, obfuscation and delay, to protect on the one hand their bureaucratic "turf," and on the other hand their profits and the perceived value of their obsolescent processes/products/expertise. Because of the current "budget crunch," and a historical lack of any measurable results from its founding in 1977 to the present, it is further suggested that the funds currently allocated to the Department of Energy be redirected to these projects. http://www.cfo.doe.gov/budget/10budg...Highlights.pdf http://www.cfo.doe.gov/budget/10budget/start.htm In no particular order: · Contract with SASOL [a large South African corporation] to construct and initially operate several domestic US medium sized coal to petroleum conversion plants. These plants should be sited as close as possible to existing high production coal mines to minimize transportation costs. These plants will produce not only liquid fuels such as gasoline, diesel and JP4 jet fuel, but also feed stocks for our petrochemical industries. Note that the waste from this process will provide feedstock for the next suggested project. Coal to oil conversion is economically viable when the price exceeds about 50$US per bbl. The world price is currently about twice this. http://www.sasol.com/sasol_internet/...vid=1&rootid=1 This project is sitting about 20 miles south of me in Manahoy City, PA. The project has been stopped in its tracks when the government pulled the committed funds from the project. This area is sitting on the largest antricite hard coal deposit in the world. If these projects would get set up the oil industry would have some competition and that sure would be a problem for them. http://www.google.com/custom?hl=en&c...pi&btnG=Search John · Commercialize one or more of the existing processes to extract uranium, thorium and the so-called rare earths from what are currently waste products such as power station fly ash and copper processing liquids. If the radionuclides are extracted, a public health benefit may also result, and a domestic source of rare earths is strategically important. http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/1997/fs163-97/FS-163-97.html http://www.indmin.com/Article/236289...rom-waste.html http://www.springerlink.com/content/g64832528l7l5682/ http://www.docstoc.com/docs/71797664...YL-PHOSPHONATE · Design for serial production and construct prototypes of moderate size molten salt cooled/moderated THORIUM fusion reactors. Because of safety concerns it is suggest that the working reactors and generators be sited far underground but close or even in [under] the major metro areas where the generated power is to be consumed to minimize power transmission losses. A thorium reactor generates very little nuclear waste, and this can be [re] processed on site eliminating any need for transportation or long-term storage of high-level nuclear wastes. Indeed, a molten salt thorium reactor can be used to dispose of much of the existing high-level nuclear waste, while extracting the considerable amount of energy this waste still contains, thus eliminating some contentious nuclear power issues such as the Yucca Mountain storage facility. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten_salt_reactor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorium_fuel_cycle http://energyfromthorium.com/joomla/...64&It emid=63 Even here it will be possible to contract with the current industry leaders in China and India for the construction of one or more domestic US prototype reactors. The US pioneered this technology at the Oak Ridge National Laboratories, but terminated/abandoned this work/technology in the late 1960s. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nl5DiTPw3dk http://www.thehindubusinessline.in/2...1051780100.htm http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/02/chi...nd-japans.html http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/20...thorium-power/ http://www.climateactionprogramme.or..._t echnology/ http://amrminerals.co.uk/assets/file...%202010%20.pdf http://amrminerals.co.uk/assets/file...oject-2011.pdf There is at least one domestic US private sector company engaged in thorium reactor research. http://www.bullfax.com/?q=node-can-t...nuclear-energy http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/...s-of-reactors/ I would be pleased to discuss these suggestions in greater detail with you or your staff. ----- end of email ----- As a general rule, unless you have some positive suggestions or alternatives to a problem, complaining is useless and even counter-productive. -- Unka George (George McDuffee) .............................. The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there. L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author. The Go-Between, Prologue (1953). |
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Japans Nuclear problem in simple language.
On Tue, 15 Mar 2011 00:15:50 -0400, John
wrote: snip · Contract with SASOL [a large South African corporation] to construct and initially operate several domestic US medium sized coal to petroleum conversion plants. These plants should be sited as close as possible to existing high production coal mines to minimize transportation costs. These plants will produce not only liquid fuels such as gasoline, diesel and JP4 jet fuel, but also feed stocks for our petrochemical industries. Note that the waste from this process will provide feedstock for the next suggested project. Coal to oil conversion is economically viable when the price exceeds about 50$US per bbl. The world price is currently about twice this. http://www.sasol.com/sasol_internet/...vid=1&rootid=1 This project is sitting about 20 miles south of me in Manahoy City, PA. The project has been stopped in its tracks when the government pulled the committed funds from the project. This area is sitting on the largest antricite hard coal deposit in the world. If these projects would get set up the oil industry would have some competition and that sure would be a problem for them. http://www.google.com/custom?hl=en&c...pi&btnG=Search snip ======== Thanks for the information and the link. Another item to write my congresspersons on. Evidence continues to mount that the so called US energy shortage is totally a created artifact to maintain the price of imported oil and the market position of the importers/speculators. -- Unka George (George McDuffee) ............................... The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there. L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author. The Go-Between, Prologue (1953). |
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Japans Nuclear problem in simple language.
On Tue, 15 Mar 2011 00:15:50 -0400, John
wrote: This project is sitting about 20 miles south of me in Manahoy City, PA. The project has been stopped in its tracks when the government pulled the committed funds from the project. This area is sitting on the largest antricite hard coal deposit in the world. If these projects would get set up the oil industry would have some competition and that sure would be a problem for them. I know that area. Was extensively mined and towns with eery lack of people. It was like yesterday that I remember being chauffeured past miles of strip mining and my major tree hugging girl friend was bitching about how they just raped the land and left. She recently ****ed me off so I jokingly took the devils advocate side and she flew off into a fit until she was so hot that I just let it go. Her other button was just as hot ! They could have at least contoured the land so it wouldn't look like a mine. We went to a ghost town that use to be a mining town where the mine owned the land and stores. SW |
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Japans Nuclear problem in simple language.
"Sunworshipper" SW@GWNTUNDRA wrote in message ... On Tue, 15 Mar 2011 00:15:50 -0400, John wrote: This project is sitting about 20 miles south of me in Manahoy City, PA. The project has been stopped in its tracks when the government pulled the committed funds from the project. This area is sitting on the largest antricite hard coal deposit in the world. If these projects would get set up the oil industry would have some competition and that sure would be a problem for them. I know that area. Was extensively mined and towns with eery lack of people. It was like yesterday that I remember being chauffeured past miles of strip mining and my major tree hugging girl friend was bitching about how they just raped the land and left. She recently ****ed me off so I jokingly took the devils advocate side and she flew off into a fit until she was so hot that I just let it go. Her other button was just as hot ! They could have at least contoured the land so it wouldn't look like a mine. We went to a ghost town that use to be a mining town where the mine owned the land and stores. SW Did you see the town of Centralia? I used to play Little League ball against their team, when I lived in Bloomsburg. Nice town. Now is has, I think, 5 residents. The seam under it has been burning since 1962. Heating a house there must be cheap. -- Ed Huntress |
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Japans Nuclear problem in simple language.
Sunworshipper wrote:
On Tue, 15 Mar 2011 00:15:50 -0400, wrote: This project is sitting about 20 miles south of me in Manahoy City, PA. The project has been stopped in its tracks when the government pulled the committed funds from the project. This area is sitting on the largest antricite hard coal deposit in the world. If these projects would get set up the oil industry would have some competition and that sure would be a problem for them. I know that area. Was extensively mined and towns with eery lack of people. It was like yesterday that I remember being chauffeured past miles of strip mining and my major tree hugging girl friend was bitching about how they just raped the land and left. She recently ****ed me off so I jokingly took the devils advocate side and she flew off into a fit until she was so hot that I just let it go. Her other button was just as hot ! They could have at least contoured the land so it wouldn't look like a mine. We went to a ghost town that use to be a mining town where the mine owned the land and stores. SW If you really want to see some of the bad results of strip mining go to Google maps and see it from the air. http://www.satelliteviews.net/cgi-bi...e=PA&ftype=ppl All the strip mining in this area done today has restrictions on how the land if left after the mining is done. John |
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Japans Nuclear problem in simple language.
On Mon, 14 Mar 2011 15:15:04 -0700 (PDT), oldjag
wrote: snip Given the huge potential impact LFTR and liquid fuels generation could have on our economy I can not understand why I have not heard one iota about either from any mainstream "news" source or "alternative" energy show. I doubt 1 in 100 people in the US have ever even heard about LFTR. India and China are already putting money into research for LFTR's. snip ============ Again the Chinese are not only planning but acting. While not mainstream US media (The DT is a UK paper), the implementation of LFTR appears to be a PRC priority. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/c...h-thorium.html {watch the wrap, and scan the reader comments} One item of interest is that thorium is a byproduct of REE [rare earth element] mining/extraction, with frequently more thorium recovered than REEs. Thorium can also be economically extracted from coal fired power station fly ash, with more potential energy than the original coal, and China currently burns more coal than any other nation. -- Unka George (George McDuffee) ............................... The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there. L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author. The Go-Between, Prologue (1953). |
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Japans Nuclear problem in simple language.
The group may find it interesting to review the history of
steam explosions/disasters. Of course, nuclear plants are steam plants but heated by the reactor rather than coal, but downstream from the reactor the problems/challanges are the same. It is sobering to realize just how many of today's problems are due to carelessness in applying old technology. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiler_explosion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Ne...team_explosion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_boiler_explosions http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstrac...D95F44 8684F9 http://www.google.com/search?q=histo...&ved=0COIBEKsE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_explosion http://trade-metal.com/steam-explosi...orp-p6773.html http://www.engineeringexpert.net/Eng...team-explosion http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...9/ai_94666562/ some nuclear specific steam explosion articles http://scitation.aip.org/getabs/serv...ifs=yes&ref=no http://stresa.jrc.ec.europa.eu/sarne...ic/fzk/ECO.pdf -- Unka George (George McDuffee) ............................... The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there. L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author. The Go-Between, Prologue (1953). |
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