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Butt welding ends of 1/16" stainless wire
On Fri, 7 Jan 2011 19:53:56 -0800, "Califbill"
wrote: wrote in message ... On Jan 6, 8:29 am, " wrote: On Jan 6, 1:31 am, Ignoramus25384 ignoramus25...@NOSPAM. 25384.invalid wrote: It worked, but left a little "bulb" near the weld. After careful grinding, it is fine, but I wonder: Is there some secret technique to such welding, that would make the weld look very similar to surrounding wire? (TIG) i Silver brazing. Dan That's what I used to do. Reply: I still get a small blob on the junction. Too much filler. Get some .005" flat silver solder from Brownell's, the stuff they use to stick front sights on shotguns among other things. Make your ring with about an .005" gap. Cut a piece of silver solder to fit in the gap. Flux the gap, wipe flux off of metal not in the gap, stick the little precut bit of silversolder in there, pinch the ring gently and heat gently until the alloy melts. Capillary action will keep the molten alloy in the gap. With TIG, I wouldn't use any filler at all. I'd make the joint with flat faces and no gap, do an autogenous weld. Silver brazing is quicker, easier and just as strong. |
Butt welding ends of 1/16" stainless wire
On 2011-01-09, Don Foreman wrote:
With TIG, I wouldn't use any filler at all. I'd make the joint with flat faces and no gap, do an autogenous weld. It does not work, I tried it. The ends pull away from each other as soon as metal starts to melt. Silver brazing is quicker, easier and just as strong. Here I am not sure how to keep the flame from melting the wire quickly. But it seems worth trying. i |
Butt welding ends of 1/16" stainless wire
On Jan 10, 11:57*am, Ignoramus21107 ignoramus21...@NOSPAM.
21107.invalid wrote: Silver brazing is quicker, easier and just as strong. Here I am not sure how to keep the flame from melting the wire quickly. But it seems worth trying. i You do not need that hot a flame. A cheap propane torch will work well on relatively small items. You could let your son silver braze his own zipper pull. Dan |
Butt welding ends of 1/16" stainless wire
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Butt welding ends of 1/16" stainless wire
On Jan 10, 5:52*pm, Rich Grise wrote:
Is silver soldering really considered "brazing?" Many years ago, I brass- brazed a piece of linkage in my part, but used OA because one of my coaches at the time said, "you have to actually puddle the iron." On my first try, I thought brazing was like soldering and it pulled apart with my bare hands. But I _have_ silver soldered with propane-air. Thanks! Rich Below some temperature everything is considered soft soldered or just soldered. This includes some solders that have no lead and some silver. But above this temperature is various sorts of brazing. Everyone used to just call the stuff with 35% or more of silver, silver solder, but now with the low temerature solders that contain some solder it is better to use the term silver braze so no one is confused. Some of the low temperature solders are good for about 10,000 psi strength. The high temperature silver braze is good for about ten times as much strength. However this is for a lap joint with about 2 or 3 thousandth clearance between the pieces. Your coach that said you have to actually puddle the iron was wrong. Brazing is joining pieces with an alloy that melts below the melting point of the pieces being joined. The pieces being joined do not melt. This website has much more information. www.lucasmilhaupt.com Dan |
Butt welding ends of 1/16" stainless wire
On Jan 10, 11:57*am, Ignoramus21107 ignoramus21...@NOSPAM.
21107.invalid wrote: On 2011-01-09, Don Foreman wrote: With TIG, I wouldn't use any filler at all. *I'd make the joint with flat faces and no gap, *do an autogenous weld. It does not work, I tried it. The ends pull away from each other as soon as metal starts to melt. Silver brazing is quicker, easier and just as strong. Here I am not sure how to keep the flame from melting the wire quickly. But it seems worth trying. i You could braze using the TIG torch at lower power. Also, you could find a friendly jeweler and ask him to show you how to do this. I'm sure you, of all people, could work out an equitable trade. |
Butt welding ends of 1/16" stainless wire
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Butt welding ends of 1/16" stainless wire
On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 10:57:45 -0600, Ignoramus21107
wrote: On 2011-01-09, Don Foreman wrote: With TIG, I wouldn't use any filler at all. I'd make the joint with flat faces and no gap, do an autogenous weld. It does not work, I tried it. The ends pull away from each other as soon as metal starts to melt. Way too much current. You need to be using a 1mm sharp tungsten at very low current. You want to be running a micropuddle, not melt the whole end of the wire at once. Silver brazing is quicker, easier and just as strong. Here I am not sure how to keep the flame from melting the wire quickly. But it seems worth trying. Small flame some distance from work. The work shouldn't get hotter than very dull red. |
Butt welding ends of 1/16" stainless wire
On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 14:52:43 -0800, Rich Grise
wrote: wrote: On Jan 10, 11:57*am, Ignoramus21107 ignoramus21...@NOSPAM. 21107.invalid wrote: Silver brazing is quicker, easier and just as strong. Here I am not sure how to keep the flame from melting the wire quickly. But it seems worth trying. You do not need that hot a flame. A cheap propane torch will work well on relatively small items. You could let your son silver braze his own zipper pull. Is silver soldering really considered "brazing?" Yes. The proper term is "silver brazing". Soldering and brazing are very similar processes, the difference being merely one of temperature. Soldering is typically below 450F, brazing is typically above 800F. Most silver-brazing alloys go between 1100F and 1300F. So what material does one use to do silver brazing? Why, silver solder, of course! brazed a piece of linkage in my part, but used OA because one of my coaches at the time said, "you have to actually puddle the iron." He was wrong. Soldering and brazing work by raising the work and alloy above the alloy's melting point, which is lower (sometimes markedly lower) than the melting point of either piece being joined. The liquid alloy then forms a solution with the base metal much as water dissolves sugar. When the solution in the joint freezes, you have a joint. The only difference between soldering and brazing is the temperature, and therefore the alloys used. The worst thing you can do while brazing or soldering is to overheat the joint because that can boil some of the constituents out of the brazing/soldering alloy. Welding, by contrast, actually melts the base metals and the parts are joined when the resulting conjoined puddle freezes. On my first try, I thought brazing was like soldering and it pulled apart with my bare hands. A good silver-brazed joint can have strength of 100K psi. I routinely make special-purpose lathe bits by silver-brazing broken bits of HSS to larger shanks of mild steel. But I _have_ silver soldered with propane-air. Yes, propane-air is quite sufficient for small jobs. Some jewellers uses propane-air or oxy/propane. O/A is easier to direct, control and localize, but propane-air can certainly get it done. There is an excellent reference book about brazing at http://www.brazingbook.com/ There's a lot of good information about brazing in that book. |
Butt welding ends of 1/16" stainless wire
Don Foreman wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 14:52:43 -0800, Rich Grise wrote: wrote: On Jan 10, 11:57 am, Ignoramus21107 ignoramus21...@NOSPAM. 21107.invalid wrote: Silver brazing is quicker, easier and just as strong. Here I am not sure how to keep the flame from melting the wire quickly. But it seems worth trying. You do not need that hot a flame. A cheap propane torch will work well on relatively small items. You could let your son silver braze his own zipper pull. Is silver soldering really considered "brazing?" Yes. The proper term is "silver brazing". Soldering and brazing are very similar processes, the difference being merely one of temperature. Soldering is typically below 450F, brazing is typically above 800F. Most silver-brazing alloys go between 1100F and 1300F. So what material does one use to do silver brazing? Why, silver solder, of course! brazed a piece of linkage in my part, but used OA because one of my coaches at the time said, "you have to actually puddle the iron." He was wrong. Soldering and brazing work by raising the work and alloy above the alloy's melting point, which is lower (sometimes markedly lower) than the melting point of either piece being joined. The liquid alloy then forms a solution with the base metal much as water dissolves sugar. When the solution in the joint freezes, you have a joint. The only difference between soldering and brazing is the temperature, and therefore the alloys used. The worst thing you can do while brazing or soldering is to overheat the joint because that can boil some of the constituents out of the brazing/soldering alloy. Welding, by contrast, actually melts the base metals and the parts are joined when the resulting conjoined puddle freezes. On my first try, I thought brazing was like soldering and it pulled apart with my bare hands. A good silver-brazed joint can have strength of 100K psi. I routinely make special-purpose lathe bits by silver-brazing broken bits of HSS to larger shanks of mild steel. But I _have_ silver soldered with propane-air. Yes, propane-air is quite sufficient for small jobs. Some jewellers uses propane-air or oxy/propane. O/A is easier to direct, control and localize, but propane-air can certainly get it done. There is an excellent reference book about brazing at http://www.brazingbook.com/ There's a lot of good information about brazing in that book. Sounded interesting. Don, but why do they need my phone number? -- Richard Lamb email me: web site: www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb |
Butt welding ends of 1/16" stainless wire
On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 19:31:28 -0800, Rich Grise
wrote: wrote: Your coach that said you have to actually puddle the iron was wrong. Brazing is joining pieces with an alloy that melts below the melting point of the pieces being joined. The pieces being joined do not melt. Well, the part was a piece of the clutch linkage from my '72 Ford E-100; it was bent into an "L" at each end, and one of the elbows had started to open up. It was like 3/8 steel rod that looked like the ends were forged. I wanted to stick it back together; somebody suggested "brazing", with the OA torch and brass filler rod. The first time I tried, I treated the brass like solder; adhered it to the two sides of the crack, and it opened up almost under hand pressure. That's when the guy said, "puddle the iron," which worked for the rest of the life of the tall car. So what did I do? The first time, you probably melted the brazing alloy onto the steel like candlewax. It coated but didn't bond. You need to raise the workpiece temperature to the melting point of the alloy for it to fuse. When you "puddled the iron" you effectively welded the part after boiling all of the zinc or tin out of whatever brazing alloy you'd applied. You'd have been better off to skip the alloy and use coathanger as a filler rod, actually not a bad approach in a situation like that. TIG rod works very well for gas welding of steel but a lot of automotive parts have been mended with a torch and a bit of coathanger. |
Butt welding ends of 1/16" stainless wire
Another description that can be useful for soft solders which contain
silver, is silver-bearing soft solder. Soft solders (with or without silver content) easily melt without a flame, with a soldering iron or soldering gun.. in the range of about 430-650 F temperatures. Silver-bearing solders are now becoming popular for use in copper plumbing connections (with propane or MAPP gas torches. The newer lead-free plumbing solders are generally silver-bearing (soft) solders with maybe 6% silver content. Actual silver solders are high temperature application, and hard compared to low temp soft solders. Hard silver solders aren't going to melt/flow with soldering iron temperatures, and are typically stiff like steel wire. Soft wire solders, even silver-bearing alloys, can easily be wrapped around a finger without discomfort.. trying the same test with hard silver solder will be painful unless the silver solder is very thin. Hard silver solders are applied by brazing, technically speaking. Applications involving soft solders are soldering, whether or not the heating source is a soldering iron or torch. As Dan pointed out, neither of these processes will require melting/puddling of the base metals. Both soldering and brazing products (wire, rods) will fail at those temperatures. One example of metal joining/repair that may improperly be referred to as soldering or brazing, would be those "miracle" aluminum repair rods. These actually require welding, since the rod material is required to mix with the base metal when joining aluminum parts. The welding temperature is fairly low, about 750+ F, simply because aluminum alloys have low melting points. This process wouldn't technically be defined as brazing or soldering, because the filler material/rod is actually mixing with the aluminum alloy base metal. This aluminum repair rod example gets a little cloudy, because the aluminum repair rods can also be used with other non-ferrous metals.. brass, copper, for example. When these other metals are joined with aluminum repair rods, the process is more closely related to brazing.. but could be considered soldering. -- WB .......... wrote in message ... Below some temperature everything is considered soft soldered or just soldered. This includes some solders that have no lead and some silver. But above this temperature is various sorts of brazing. Everyone used to just call the stuff with 35% or more of silver, silver solder, but now with the low temerature solders that contain some solder it is better to use the term silver braze so no one is confused. Some of the low temperature solders are good for about 10,000 psi strength. The high temperature silver braze is good for about ten times as much strength. However this is for a lap joint with about 2 or 3 thousandth clearance between the pieces. Your coach that said you have to actually puddle the iron was wrong. Brazing is joining pieces with an alloy that melts below the melting point of the pieces being joined. The pieces being joined do not melt. This website has much more information. www.lucasmilhaupt.com Dan |
Butt welding ends of 1/16" stainless wire
On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 10:57:45 -0600, Ignoramus21107
wrote: On 2011-01-09, Don Foreman wrote: With TIG, I wouldn't use any filler at all. I'd make the joint with flat faces and no gap, do an autogenous weld. It does not work, I tried it. The ends pull away from each other as soon as metal starts to melt. PS to previous post: It does work for me, Ig, even if you're not yet able to make it work for you. I didn't make it up or pull it outta me arse, I've made several rings from wire. The TIG machine you have is more advanced than my old Miller Dialarc 250HF so you have the kit if not yet the skill. |
Butt welding ends of 1/16" stainless wire
On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 00:28:39 -0600, CaveLamb
wrote: Don Foreman wrote: On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 14:52:43 -0800, Rich Grise wrote: wrote: On Jan 10, 11:57 am, Ignoramus21107 ignoramus21...@NOSPAM. 21107.invalid wrote: Silver brazing is quicker, easier and just as strong. Here I am not sure how to keep the flame from melting the wire quickly. But it seems worth trying. You do not need that hot a flame. A cheap propane torch will work well on relatively small items. You could let your son silver braze his own zipper pull. Is silver soldering really considered "brazing?" Yes. The proper term is "silver brazing". Soldering and brazing are very similar processes, the difference being merely one of temperature. Soldering is typically below 450F, brazing is typically above 800F. Most silver-brazing alloys go between 1100F and 1300F. So what material does one use to do silver brazing? Why, silver solder, of course! brazed a piece of linkage in my part, but used OA because one of my coaches at the time said, "you have to actually puddle the iron." He was wrong. Soldering and brazing work by raising the work and alloy above the alloy's melting point, which is lower (sometimes markedly lower) than the melting point of either piece being joined. The liquid alloy then forms a solution with the base metal much as water dissolves sugar. When the solution in the joint freezes, you have a joint. The only difference between soldering and brazing is the temperature, and therefore the alloys used. The worst thing you can do while brazing or soldering is to overheat the joint because that can boil some of the constituents out of the brazing/soldering alloy. Welding, by contrast, actually melts the base metals and the parts are joined when the resulting conjoined puddle freezes. On my first try, I thought brazing was like soldering and it pulled apart with my bare hands. A good silver-brazed joint can have strength of 100K psi. I routinely make special-purpose lathe bits by silver-brazing broken bits of HSS to larger shanks of mild steel. But I _have_ silver soldered with propane-air. Yes, propane-air is quite sufficient for small jobs. Some jewellers uses propane-air or oxy/propane. O/A is easier to direct, control and localize, but propane-air can certainly get it done. There is an excellent reference book about brazing at http://www.brazingbook.com/ There's a lot of good information about brazing in that book. Sounded interesting. Don, but why do they need my phone number? I don't know. That didn't used to be necessary. Maybe new marketing pukes have invaded Handy Harman. I don't need to read their excellent Brazing Book again, but I'd have no problem providing my phone number because I haff wayss of discouraging telemarketers. I really am hearing-challenged as most vets my age are, and I know how to parlay that to max frustration for telemarketers. I think we may be on some telemarketer "don't call" lists because I delight in driving telemarketers to frustration and sometimes incoherent rage. Call me in pursuit of profit at your risk. We are rarely bothered by telemarketers. You could always offer a phony phone number, perhaps the valid number of a mortuary, brothel or pizzaria in your neighborhood. Harman Handy is a reputable firm with good products and good tech info. |
Butt welding ends of 1/16" stainless wire
Don Foreman wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 19:31:28 -0800, Rich Grise .... the brass like solder; adhered it to the two sides of the crack, and it opened up almost under hand pressure. That's when the guy said, "puddle the iron," which worked for the rest of the life of the tall car. So what did I do? The first time, you probably melted the brazing alloy onto the steel like candlewax. Ah, yes. "Solder is not glue that you melt before using" the joint has to be hot enough to melt the solder without burning it. It coated but didn't bond. You need to raise the workpiece temperature to the melting point of the alloy for it to fuse. So, essentially, I "brass soldered," with no flux, IIRC. When you "puddled the iron" you effectively welded the part after boiling all of the zinc or tin out of whatever brazing alloy you'd applied. You'd have been better off to skip the alloy and use coathanger as a filler rod, NOW ya tell me! ;-) actually not a bad approach in a situation like that. TIG rod works very well for gas welding of steel but a lot of automotive parts have been mended with a torch and a bit of coathanger. Thanks! You learn something new every day; I guess I can go back to bed now! ;-D Cheers! Rich |
Butt welding ends of 1/16" stainless wire
....also helps to bend up the ring/loop so that it wants to overlap, and then pull the ends back and butt them - they will have a bit of spring tension holding them together. -- Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by |
Butt welding ends of 1/16" stainless wire
On 2011-01-11, Don Foreman wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 10:57:45 -0600, Ignoramus21107 wrote: On 2011-01-09, Don Foreman wrote: With TIG, I wouldn't use any filler at all. I'd make the joint with flat faces and no gap, do an autogenous weld. It does not work, I tried it. The ends pull away from each other as soon as metal starts to melt. PS to previous post: It does work for me, Ig, even if you're not yet able to make it work for you. I didn't make it up or pull it outta me arse, I've made several rings from wire. The TIG machine you have is more advanced than my old Miller Dialarc 250HF so you have the kit if not yet the skill. Possibly. I was using a relatively big tungsten electrode and probably too much current. I am mastering the art of wire bending (around various mandrels or round nose pliers), making things that are very useful around the household (hangers, zipper tabs etc). Learning how to weld that stuff is easy, cheap and rewarding. I usually use 316 or 308 stainless wire. I have 1/16, 3/32 and 1/8. i i |
Butt welding ends of 1/16" stainless wire
On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 00:41:00 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote: TIG rod works very well for gas welding of steel but a lot of automotive parts have been mended with a torch and a bit of coathanger. Hopefully, those welds were primarily autogenous. Coathangers are the ****ty potmetal of steels. -- You and I have a rendezvous with destiny. We will preserve for our children this, the last best hope of man on Earth, or we will sentence them to take the last step into a thousand years of darkness.? -- Ronald Reagan |
Butt welding ends of 1/16" stainless wire
Larry Jaques wrote: On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 00:41:00 -0600, Don Foreman wrote: TIG rod works very well for gas welding of steel but a lot of automotive parts have been mended with a torch and a bit of coathanger. Hopefully, those welds were primarily autogenous. Coathangers are the ****ty potmetal of steels. Sure, but they do fill holes. :) -- You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a band-aid on it, because it's Teflon coated. |
Butt welding ends of 1/16" stainless wire
Don Foreman wrote:
You could always offer a phony phone number, perhaps the valid number of a mortuary, brothel or pizzaria in your neighborhood. Please don't. That just inflicts the telemarketers on the innocent. I have this miraculous new invention - the "Answering Machine." It says, "Hi, you've reached phone number. Please leave your name, number, and a short message if you'd like. And please, say your name and number twice, just so there's no confusion. Thanks! beep" They usually hang up - those telemarketing droids are just grunts who are trying to make a buck, and they'd rather hang up and go to the next victim than waste their time on someone who's obviously not a buyer. When I _do_ pick up, I can recognize them by their words, usually something like "Hi, this is Joe Schmo, and I'm calling to give you this opportunity to blah blah blah" I say, "Thanks, not interested. click" Trying to "punish" them is an exercise in futility. Although, I did hear about some guy who would say, "Please tell me your name, your supervisor's name, and the name and address of your company - it is my duty to inform you that my fee for using my personal equipment in the conduct of your business is one hundred dollars per minute." They hang up immediately if not sooner. :- Cheers! Rich |
Butt welding ends of 1/16" stainless wire
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Larry Jaques wrote: On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 00:41:00 -0600, Don Foreman TIG rod works very well for gas welding of steel but a lot of automotive parts have been mended with a torch and a bit of coathanger. Hopefully, those welds were primarily autogenous. Coathangers are the ****ty potmetal of steels. Sure, but they do fill holes. :) I've also heard that they have coathanger sex to reproduce in the darkness of the closet, which is why they're always all tangled up and there are more every time you look. ;-) But coathanger for filler? Doesn't the enamel contaminate the weld? Cheers! Rich |
Butt welding ends of 1/16" stainless wire
Rich Grise wrote: Michael A. Terrell wrote: Larry Jaques wrote: On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 00:41:00 -0600, Don Foreman TIG rod works very well for gas welding of steel but a lot of automotive parts have been mended with a torch and a bit of coathanger. Hopefully, those welds were primarily autogenous. Coathangers are the ****ty potmetal of steels. Sure, but they do fill holes. :) I've also heard that they have coathanger sex to reproduce in the darkness of the closet, which is why they're always all tangled up and there are more every time you look. ;-) But coathanger for filler? Doesn't the enamel contaminate the weld? Have you ever welded? Do you know what flux is for? -- You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a band-aid on it, because it's Teflon coated. |
Butt welding ends of 1/16" stainless wire
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Rich Grise wrote: Michael A. Terrell wrote: Larry Jaques wrote: On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 00:41:00 -0600, Don Foreman TIG rod works very well for gas welding of steel but a lot of automotive parts have been mended with a torch and a bit of coathanger. Hopefully, those welds were primarily autogenous. Coathangers are the ****ty potmetal of steels. Sure, but they do fill holes. :) I've also heard that they have coathanger sex to reproduce in the darkness of the closet, which is why they're always all tangled up and there are more every time you look. ;-) But coathanger for filler? Doesn't the enamel contaminate the weld? Have you ever welded? Do you know what flux is for? Only with fluxcore, and I've "gas brazed," which was a lot closer to welding than soldering (I still don't know exactly what "brazing" is); and yes, of course I know what flux is for. Does the enamel on coat hangers make good flux? I'd think it would just crud up the joint, but maybe it cleans off the oxides as it burns; I simply do not know. Thanks, Rich |
Butt welding ends of 1/16" stainless wire
Rich Grise wrote: Michael A. Terrell wrote: Rich Grise wrote: Michael A. Terrell wrote: Larry Jaques wrote: On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 00:41:00 -0600, Don Foreman TIG rod works very well for gas welding of steel but a lot of automotive parts have been mended with a torch and a bit of coathanger. Hopefully, those welds were primarily autogenous. Coathangers are the ****ty potmetal of steels. Sure, but they do fill holes. :) I've also heard that they have coathanger sex to reproduce in the darkness of the closet, which is why they're always all tangled up and there are more every time you look. ;-) But coathanger for filler? Doesn't the enamel contaminate the weld? Have you ever welded? Do you know what flux is for? Only with fluxcore, and I've "gas brazed," which was a lot closer to welding than soldering (I still don't know exactly what "brazing" is); and yes, of course I know what flux is for. Does the enamel on coat hangers make good flux? No. it burns off, like it's supposed to. I'd think it would just crud up the joint, but maybe it cleans off the oxides as it burns; I simply do not know. I've seen lots of old welders use coat hangers or other scrap wire for fill work. Heat the end, stick it into a can of Borax and weld. When you run out of fluxed wire you stick it back in the can and continue working. Not for welding requiring a lot of strength, but OK for filling rust holes in a car body, or similar jobs. I used it once for a truck bumper I made. The steel was 3/16" thick and had a narrow gap where the ends curved after I bent them. My freind was low on rods, so I used coat hangers, then ground it down with a 8" angle grinder. It looked great, and did the job. -- You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a band-aid on it, because it's Teflon coated. |
Butt welding ends of 1/16" stainless wire
On 2011-01-11, Wild_Bill wrote:
Another description that can be useful for soft solders which contain silver, is silver-bearing soft solder. Soft solders (with or without silver content) easily melt without a flame, with a soldering iron or soldering gun.. in the range of about 430-650 F temperatures. Silver-bearing solders are now becoming popular for use in copper plumbing connections (with propane or MAPP gas torches. The newer lead-free plumbing solders are generally silver-bearing (soft) solders with maybe 6% silver content. Another place where silver-bearing solders used to be used was in Tektronix oscilloscopes. They had notched strips of ceramic used as terminal strips. Each notch was plated with a noticeable thickness of silver -- and connecting to it using normal lead/tin solder would dissolve the silver over time. Usually, you could make one or two connections to it -- but if you had a part which was needing frequent replacement for whatever reason, you would soon enough wind up with a bunch of wires in a blob of solder hanging free -- no bond to the ceramic terminal strip for that connection at least. The Tektronix 'scopes which used these (mostly tube days, and no printed circuit cards) typically would have a small roll of the proper silver-bearing solder snapped in the storage compartment with the manual, usually on the top of the 'scope. Later -- about the time that Tektronix went to complete printed circuit boards and mostly solid state circuitry, ALCO got the license to make the terminal strips. I used quite a few in projects at work back then. They were particularly nice for circuits involving high impedances (tubes and FETs) because, unlike the typical phenolic strip with a bunch of terminals staked in place, the glazed ceramic did not grow fungus and provide high-impedance paths for current leakage. And -- the phenolic tended to get cooked to death as people sucked off the solder to gain access to wires wrapped around the eyelets. No problem with the first components, but after several repairs, they were a serious disaster. Enjoy, DoN. -- Remove oil spill source from e-mail Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
Butt welding ends of 1/16" stainless wire
In article ,
"DoN. Nichols" wrote: On 2011-01-11, Wild_Bill wrote: Another description that can be useful for soft solders which contain silver, is silver-bearing soft solder. Soft solders (with or without silver content) easily melt without a flame, with a soldering iron or soldering gun.. in the range of about 430-650 F temperatures. Silver-bearing solders are now becoming popular for use in copper plumbing connections (with propane or MAPP gas torches. The newer lead-free plumbing solders are generally silver-bearing (soft) solders with maybe 6% silver content. Another place where silver-bearing solders used to be used was in Tektronix oscilloscopes. They had notched strips of ceramic used as terminal strips. Each notch was plated with a noticeable thickness of silver -- and connecting to it using normal lead/tin solder would dissolve the silver over time. Usually, you could make one or two connections to it -- but if you had a part which was needing frequent replacement for whatever reason, you would soon enough wind up with a bunch of wires in a blob of solder hanging free -- no bond to the ceramic terminal strip for that connection at least. The Tektronix 'scopes which used these (mostly tube days, and no printed circuit cards) typically would have a small roll of the proper silver-bearing solder snapped in the storage compartment with the manual, usually on the top of the 'scope. Later -- about the time that Tektronix went to complete printed circuit boards and mostly solid state circuitry, ALCO got the license to make the terminal strips. I used quite a few in projects at work back then. They were particularly nice for circuits involving high impedances (tubes and FETs) because, unlike the typical phenolic strip with a bunch of terminals staked in place, the glazed ceramic did not grow fungus and provide high-impedance paths for current leakage. And, you could wash them. The Tek scope maintenance manuals of the day had a section on how to wash the scope in a bathtub. You took the covers off, put the saambly in a tub or big deep sink, and washed it with Alconox dishwasher detergent in hot water, rinsed with hot water then distilled water (to remove water hardness), and let it dry. This removed al the dust and dirt and conductive films from the ceramic terminal strips. Joe Gwinn |
Butt welding ends of 1/16" stainless wire
Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article , Later -- about the time that Tektronix went to complete printed circuit boards and mostly solid state circuitry, ALCO got the license to make the terminal strips. I used quite a few in projects at work back then. They were particularly nice for circuits involving high impedances (tubes and FETs) because, unlike the typical phenolic strip with a bunch of terminals staked in place, the glazed ceramic did not grow fungus and provide high-impedance paths for current leakage. And, you could wash them. The Tek scope maintenance manuals of the day had a section on how to wash the scope in a bathtub. You took the covers off, put the saambly in a tub or big deep sink, and washed it with Alconox dishwasher detergent in hot water, rinsed with hot water then distilled water (to remove water hardness), and let it dry. This removed al the dust and dirt and conductive films from the ceramic terminal strips. Some time ago, some guy told me that if you send a 'scope to Tektronix for warranty repair, the first thing Tek does is put the 'scope in a room lined with ceramic tile, and turn the equivalent of a fire hose on it. This is second-hand Urban Legend grade material, but it's a fairly well-known fact that water doesn't hurt electronics that aren't powered up, as long as you let it dry before you _do_ power it up. :-) Cheers! Rich |
Butt welding ends of 1/16" stainless wire
In article ,
Rich Grise wrote: Joseph Gwinn wrote: In article , Later -- about the time that Tektronix went to complete printed circuit boards and mostly solid state circuitry, ALCO got the license to make the terminal strips. I used quite a few in projects at work back then. They were particularly nice for circuits involving high impedances (tubes and FETs) because, unlike the typical phenolic strip with a bunch of terminals staked in place, the glazed ceramic did not grow fungus and provide high-impedance paths for current leakage. And, you could wash them. The Tek scope maintenance manuals of the day had a section on how to wash the scope in a bathtub. You took the covers off, put the saambly in a tub or big deep sink, and washed it with Alconox dishwasher detergent in hot water, rinsed with hot water then distilled water (to remove water hardness), and let it dry. This removed al the dust and dirt and conductive films from the ceramic terminal strips. Some time ago, some guy told me that if you send a 'scope to Tektronix for warranty repair, the first thing Tek does is put the 'scope in a room lined with ceramic tile, and turn the equivalent of a fire hose on it. This is second-hand Urban Legend grade material, but it's a fairly well-known fact that water doesn't hurt electronics that aren't powered up, as long as you let it dry before you _do_ power it up. :-) I do know for a fact that Tek recommended washing the scopes - I read the instructions myself, back in the day, so that part is not urban legend. I don't know about the fire hose part, but I bet that Tek did wash the scope first, if only to eliminate dirt-induced weird problems. They probably used a hot-water sprayer such as one would find in a commercial kitchen. Joe Gwinn |
Butt welding ends of 1/16" stainless wire
On Jan 16, 11:28*am, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
... I don't know about the fire hose part, but I bet that Tek did wash the scope first, if only to eliminate dirt-induced weird problems. *They probably used a hot-water sprayer such as one would find in a commercial kitchen. Joe Gwinn After Freon was banned we switched to washing the flux off new circuit boards with isopropyl alcohol or soap and water. Only a few devices with internal contacts like switches and relays couldn't be immersed and had to be soldered on afterwards and hand-cleaned. http://www.circuitnet.com/articles/article_52053.shtml jsw |
Butt welding ends of 1/16" stainless wire
On Sun, 16 Jan 2011 08:46:34 -0800 (PST), Jim Wilkins
wrote: On Jan 16, 11:28*am, Joseph Gwinn wrote: ... I don't know about the fire hose part, but I bet that Tek did wash the scope first, if only to eliminate dirt-induced weird problems. *They probably used a hot-water sprayer such as one would find in a commercial kitchen. Joe Gwinn After Freon was banned we switched to washing the flux off new circuit boards with isopropyl alcohol or soap and water. Only a few devices with internal contacts like switches and relays couldn't be immersed and had to be soldered on afterwards and hand-cleaned. http://www.circuitnet.com/articles/article_52053.shtml jsw For the occasional hobby board, I use Sanford Expo whiteboard cleaner in a pump spray bottle as found at Office Max. A couple of squirts of that, scrub with a toothbrush, blow dry with compressed air and the board is pristinely fluxless. |
Butt welding ends of 1/16" stainless wire
On Jan 17, 1:14*am, Don Foreman wrote:
... For the occasional hobby board, I use Sanford Expo whiteboard cleaner in a pump spray bottle as found at Office Max. A couple of squirts of that, scrub with a toothbrush, blow dry with compressed air and the board is pristinely fluxless. Looks good, isopropyl alcohol and butyl cellosolve: http://whatsinproducts.com/informati...PHPSESSID=5259 I had semiconductor grade IpOH available so I used it. http://www.cleanroomworld.com/detail...l-ipa-5202.cfm The solid residue from RMA flux that alcohol leaves, scrubs off with soap and water jsw |
Butt welding ends of 1/16" stainless wire
There have been cored-solders with fluxes for circuit board assembly which
wash off completely with flowing hot water, for quite some time.. we used one type at an instrument manufacturing facility in the late 80s. Yep, they were hand-soldering thru-hole, medium density boards up to about 12" square. A stiff natural bristle brush hastened the task to be fairly effortless.. but the water needed to be hot, not just almost. -- WB .......... "Jim Wilkins" wrote in message ... After Freon was banned we switched to washing the flux off new circuit boards with isopropyl alcohol or soap and water. Only a few devices with internal contacts like switches and relays couldn't be immersed and had to be soldered on afterwards and hand-cleaned. http://www.circuitnet.com/articles/article_52053.shtml jsw |
Butt welding ends of 1/16" stainless wire
On Jan 17, 7:34*am, "Wild_Bill" wrote:
There have been cored-solders with fluxes for circuit board assembly which wash off completely with flowing hot water, for quite some time.. we used one type at an instrument manufacturing facility in the late 80s. Yep, they were hand-soldering thru-hole, medium density boards up to about 12" square. A stiff natural bristle brush hastened the task to be fairly effortless.. but the water needed to be hot, not just almost. -- WB The boards I had to fix usually weren't in pristine condition and I needed a stronger flux than water-wash or no-clean. These fine-pitch packages aren't easy to remove and replace without causing some harm: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quad_Flat_Package http://www.issi.com/pdf/PQ.pdf The pins are 0.020" on center, thus = 0.010" wide and rather difficult to hand solder without shorting them together. For prototypes I had to repair damage that would have scrapped a production board. jsw |
Butt welding ends of 1/16" stainless wire
Don Foreman wrote: On Sun, 16 Jan 2011 08:46:34 -0800 (PST), Jim Wilkins wrote: On Jan 16, 11:28 am, Joseph Gwinn wrote: ... I don't know about the fire hose part, but I bet that Tek did wash the scope first, if only to eliminate dirt-induced weird problems. They probably used a hot-water sprayer such as one would find in a commercial kitchen. Joe Gwinn After Freon was banned we switched to washing the flux off new circuit boards with isopropyl alcohol or soap and water. Only a few devices with internal contacts like switches and relays couldn't be immersed and had to be soldered on afterwards and hand-cleaned. http://www.circuitnet.com/articles/article_52053.shtml jsw For the occasional hobby board, I use Sanford Expo whiteboard cleaner in a pump spray bottle as found at Office Max. A couple of squirts of that, scrub with a toothbrush, blow dry with compressed air and the board is pristinely fluxless. I put a coat of car wax on new white boards to make them easy to clean. -- You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a band-aid on it, because it's Teflon coated. |
Butt welding ends of 1/16" stainless wire
On Mon, 17 Jan 2011 15:07:07 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote: Jim, the MC68340 was on .015" centers, with 288 pins. I hand soldered a lot of them on the test line, and changed a few by hand rather than wait for rework to use their hot air station. Solder bridges are no big problem if you run a thin bead of RMA flux down the row, then put a drop of fresh solder on the tip of the iron. Hold the board at a 45 degree angle, then run the drop of solder down the row of pins. Is the board tilted so "down" goes crossways over pins, or in the direction that the pins point? It will remove the bridges, even behind the pins and lift any oxidized solder. This leaves a row of cleaner solder joints than a reflow oven. Q would complain that they couldn't find my work, till I taught them how to see it. The reflow solder is 80/20. The Multicore .015" rework solder is 63/37 and had a lighter color that can be seen by looking at them at an angle under an inspection light. The 63/37 also had a smoother surface. That's impressive. I'd love to see a video of that. |
Butt welding ends of 1/16" stainless wire
On Jan 18, 12:45*am, Don Foreman
wrote: On Mon, 17 Jan 2011 15:07:07 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell" wrote: * Jim, the MC68340 was on .015" centers, with 288 pins. *I hand soldered a lot of them on the test line, and changed a few by hand rather than wait for rework to use their hot air station. *Solder bridges are no big problem if you run a thin bead of RMA flux down the row, then put a drop of fresh solder on the tip of the iron. *Hold the board at a 45 degree angle, then run the drop of solder down the row of pins. Is the board tilted so "down" goes crossways over pins, or in the direction that the pins point? It will remove the bridges, even behind the pins and lift any oxidized solder. *This leaves a row of cleaner solder joints than a reflow oven. *... That's impressive. *I'd love to see a video of that. A variation that leaves the board flat on the static mat is placing solder wick over the pins and running an iron down it. These are methods that are easier to show than describe, as they require learning to recognize and correct mistakes, like practicing welding. jsw |
Butt welding ends of 1/16" stainless wire
Don Foreman wrote: On Mon, 17 Jan 2011 15:07:07 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell" ? wrote: ? ? Jim, the MC68340 was on .015" centers, with 288 pins. I hand ?soldered a lot of them on the test line, and changed a few by hand ?rather than wait for rework to use their hot air station. Solder ?bridges are no big problem if you run a thin bead of RMA flux down the ?row, then put a drop of fresh solder on the tip of the iron. Hold the ?board at a 45 degree angle, then run the drop of solder down the row of ?pins. Is the board tilted so "down" goes crossways over pins, or in the direction that the pins point? You want the pins in a vertican row so the solder moves down from joint to joint. ? It will remove the bridges, even behind the pins and lift any ?oxidized solder. This leaves a row of cleaner solder joints than a ?reflow oven. Q would complain that they couldn't find my work, till I ?taught them how to see it. The reflow solder is 80/20. The Multicore ?.015" rework solder is 63/37 and had a lighter color that can be seen by ?looking at them at an angle under an inspection light. The 63/37 also ?had a smoother surface. That's impressive. I'd love to see a video of that. If I can find a way to make one, I will. I don't have access to most of the tools anymore. -- You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a band-aid on it, because it's Teflon coated. |
Butt welding ends of 1/16" stainless wire
Jim Wilkins wrote: On Jan 18, 12:45 am, Don Foreman ? wrote: ? On Mon, 17 Jan 2011 15:07:07 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell" wrote: ? ? ? Jim, the MC68340 was on .015" centers, with 288 pins. I hand ? ?soldered a lot of them on the test line, and changed a few by hand ? ?rather than wait for rework to use their hot air station. Solder ? ?bridges are no big problem if you run a thin bead of RMA flux down the ? ?row, then put a drop of fresh solder on the tip of the iron. Hold the ? ?board at a 45 degree angle, then run the drop of solder down the row of ? ?pins. ? ? Is the board tilted so "down" goes crossways over pins, or in the ? direction that the pins point? ? ? ? It will remove the bridges, even behind the pins and lift any ? ?oxidized solder. This leaves a row of cleaner solder joints than a ? ?reflow oven. ...? ? That's impressive. I'd love to see a video of that. A variation that leaves the board flat on the static mat is placing solder wick over the pins and running an iron down it. These are methods that are easier to show than describe, as they require learning to recognize and correct mistakes, like practicing welding. Jim, I started with that method, but ran into lose solder balls under ICs and heavy bridges at the back side of the pins that took too much heat to remove. I also had to scrap boards that someone else got the braid under pins and pulled the trace from the board. We had a zero tolerance for bad traces. A tiny puddle of liquid solder flows easily from one pair of pins onto the next, and takes a lot less time to do than with solder wick. -- You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a band-aid on it, because it's Teflon coated. |
Butt welding ends of 1/16" stainless wire
Don Foreman wrote:
On Mon, 17 Jan 2011 15:07:07 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell" Jim, the MC68340 was on .015" centers, with 288 pins. I hand soldered a lot of them on the test line, and changed a few by hand rather than wait for rework to use their hot air station. Solder bridges are no big problem if you run a thin bead of RMA flux down the row, then put a drop of fresh solder on the tip of the iron. Hold the board at a 45 degree angle, then run the drop of solder down the row of pins. Is the board tilted so "down" goes crossways over pins, or in the direction that the pins point? About 45 degrees; a little of both, plus about 45 degrees to Z. Think, corner of board on bench, tilted back so you're looking straight at it from your stool. Cheers! Rich |
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