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Electrical wiring question - shop related
Is it permissable to have an outlet that is rated for less curent than
the circuit breaker is? I wired the detached garage for 40A 220v service (it seemed like a lot of capacity 25 years ago!). In the garage is a subpanel with (4) 110V and (1) 30A 220v circuits. Originally the 30A breaker fed one single outlet (for the arc welder and compressor that I would someday own) - eventually I got tired of unplugging the welder to plug in the compressor or phase converter and now have (3) 220v outlets side by side in one box. Over the years I made up an extension cord to be able to weld on the opposite side of the garage and to power the bandsaw. I am considering adding an outlet at the bandsaw. The bandsaw has a 15A 220v plug on it. So back to my original question is there an issue with having a 15A outlet on a 30A circuit (the circuit is wired in #8 romex)? |
Electrical wiring question - shop related
On Tue, 07 Dec 2010 08:11:22 -0600, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote: fired this volley in news:3591bfb5-06bc-4d92-9cf7- : So back to my original question is there an issue with having a 15A outlet on a 30A circuit (the circuit is wired in #8 romex)? Yeah, there is. You could draw enough current to char or even destroy the outlet. What you need is a small local service box with a breaker just for that outlet. They sell them at the home stores variously named like "job site panel". They come with a breaker (or a place to put one), and often one 220V outlet and one 115V duplex outlet. C'mon, LLoyd. Wouldn't it be both legal and saner (not to mention far CHEAPER) to simply replace the -breaker- with a smaller one? P.S: That #8's gotta be a striped beeyatch to work with. -- You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club. --Jack London |
Electrical wiring question - shop related
On Dec 7, 10:19*am, Larry Jaques
wrote: On Tue, 07 Dec 2010 08:11:22 -0600, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote: fired this volley in news:3591bfb5-06bc-4d92-9cf7- : So back to my original question is there an issue with having a 15A outlet on a 30A circuit (the circuit is wired in #8 romex)? Yeah, there is. *You could draw enough current to char or even destroy the outlet. What you need is a small local service box with a breaker just for that outlet. *They sell them at the home stores variously named like "job site panel". *They come with a breaker (or a place to put one), and often one 220V outlet and one 115V duplex outlet. C'mon, LLoyd. Wouldn't it be both legal and saner (not to mention far CHEAPER) to simply replace the -breaker- with a smaller one? Yes, but then how's he going to pull 30A on the line when the welder and compressor run simultaneously? P.S: That #8's gotta be a striped beeyatch to work with. I ran some 6-3 from my basement to my attic for a future subpanel. Not only is the stuff unruly, it's also just plain heavy. |
Electrical wiring question - shop related
Larry Jaques fired this volley in
: C'mon, LLoyd. Wouldn't it be both legal and saner (not to mention far CHEAPER) to simply replace the -breaker- with a smaller one? He has other, higher-current needs for that circuit, from the way I read it. LLoyd |
Electrical wiring question - shop related
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Electrical wiring question - shop related
My garage subpanel is maxed out and I do not want to derate the 30A
breaker for when I use the welder (technically the welder is rated to draw 50A but I have only tripped the 30A breaker once in the last decade). I have a 40A breaker at the main service panel in the house. It is set up this way so that I do not trip the breaker in the house - I do not live there anymore and I don't want to rely on my tenant being home to reset a tripped breaker (on demand). If I could start all over I would have a 60A breaker in the house and 50A breaker in the garage with a larger subpanel. LLoyd: The "local service panel" would be mounted at the 20A location or adjacent to the existing subpanel? So there would be a local subpanel off of the existing subpanel in the garage? By extension, would I be correct in presuming that putting a higher amp rated plug on the bandsaw would not be proper either? Not that its correct, but today my bandsaw is powered by an 8 ga extension cord that has a 50A male plug and a 15A female recepticle on the other end that the bandsaw power cord plugs into. |
Electrical wiring question - shop related
wrote in message ... Is it permissable to have an outlet that is rated for less curent than the circuit breaker is? No. Its also potentially dangerous if you have a problem. I wired the detached garage for 40A 220v service (it seemed like a lot of capacity 25 years ago!). In the garage is a subpanel with (4) 110V and (1) 30A 220v circuits. Originally the 30A breaker fed one single outlet (for the arc welder and compressor that I would someday own) - I have a 50 for my welder and 30s for my table saw and future compressor. Each is a different type of plug and outlet. 40amps isn't much. Its time to start thinking about upgrading your service to that area. eventually I got tired of unplugging the welder to plug in the compressor or phase converter and now have (3) 220v outlets side by side in one box. Over the years I made up an extension cord to be able to weld on the opposite side of the garage and to power the bandsaw. I hope its some really heavy duty cord. Heavier than the heaviest 110 cord you might find in a good hardware store. I am considering adding an outlet at the bandsaw. The bandsaw has a 15A 220v plug on it. So back to my original question is there an issue with having a 15A outlet on a 30A circuit (the circuit is wired in #8 romex)? Yes, there is an issue. You could theoretically have a problem and draw enough power to start a fire without tripping the breaker. |
Electrical wiring question - shop related
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Electrical wiring question - shop related
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Electrical wiring question - shop related
wrote:
On Tue, 7 Dec 2010 05:33:03 -0800 (PST), wrote: Is it permissable to have an outlet that is rated for less curent than the circuit breaker is? I wired the detached garage for 40A 220v service (it seemed like a lot of capacity 25 years ago!). In the garage is a subpanel with (4) 110V and (1) 30A 220v circuits. Originally the 30A breaker fed one single outlet (for the arc welder and compressor that I would someday own) - eventually I got tired of unplugging the welder to plug in the compressor or phase converter and now have (3) 220v outlets side by side in one box. Over the years I made up an extension cord to be able to weld on the opposite side of the garage and to power the bandsaw. I am considering adding an outlet at the bandsaw. The bandsaw has a 15A 220v plug on it. So back to my original question is there an issue with having a 15A outlet on a 30A circuit (the circuit is wired in #8 romex)? Does not meet code, but you COULD put a fuse or breaker in the outlet box to protect the outlet to 15 amps. Would this meet code: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=... tbs%3Disch:1 |
Electrical wiring question - shop related
Jim Stewart wrote:
wrote: On Tue, 7 Dec 2010 05:33:03 -0800 (PST), wrote: Is it permissable to have an outlet that is rated for less curent than the circuit breaker is? I wired the detached garage for 40A 220v service (it seemed like a lot of capacity 25 years ago!). In the garage is a subpanel with (4) 110V and (1) 30A 220v circuits. Originally the 30A breaker fed one single outlet (for the arc welder and compressor that I would someday own) - eventually I got tired of unplugging the welder to plug in the compressor or phase converter and now have (3) 220v outlets side by side in one box. Over the years I made up an extension cord to be able to weld on the opposite side of the garage and to power the bandsaw. I am considering adding an outlet at the bandsaw. The bandsaw has a 15A 220v plug on it. So back to my original question is there an issue with having a 15A outlet on a 30A circuit (the circuit is wired in #8 romex)? Does not meet code, but you COULD put a fuse or breaker in the outlet box to protect the outlet to 15 amps. Would this meet code: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=... tbs%3Disch:1 Sorry, better link... http://electrical.hardwarestore.com/...er-620715.aspx |
Electrical wiring question - shop related
On Dec 7, 1:11*pm, wrote:
*Does not meet code, but you COULD put a fuse or breaker in the outlet box to protect the outlet to 15 amps.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Most 3 phase equipment shop that I have seen had a fused disconnect on the machine. If I were to do similar on my band saw: a fused (15 amp) disconnect for the 220V 1 phase, attached to the machine. Coming out of the disconnect box a power lead going to the 30A outlet. I am considering having the outlet in the ceiling or in a vertical step in the ceiling. The band saw is positioned between 2 car bays in the garage (not near a wall) and the ceiling steps up from 8 ft to 9.5 ft over the band saw. I figure that a powercord opposite of the throat of the machine would be protected by the machine. |
Electrical wiring question - shop related
On Tue, 07 Dec 2010 10:55:04 -0800, Jim Stewart
wrote: Jim Stewart wrote: wrote: On Tue, 7 Dec 2010 05:33:03 -0800 (PST), wrote: Is it permissable to have an outlet that is rated for less curent than the circuit breaker is? I wired the detached garage for 40A 220v service (it seemed like a lot of capacity 25 years ago!). In the garage is a subpanel with (4) 110V and (1) 30A 220v circuits. Originally the 30A breaker fed one single outlet (for the arc welder and compressor that I would someday own) - eventually I got tired of unplugging the welder to plug in the compressor or phase converter and now have (3) 220v outlets side by side in one box. Over the years I made up an extension cord to be able to weld on the opposite side of the garage and to power the bandsaw. I am considering adding an outlet at the bandsaw. The bandsaw has a 15A 220v plug on it. So back to my original question is there an issue with having a 15A outlet on a 30A circuit (the circuit is wired in #8 romex)? Does not meet code, but you COULD put a fuse or breaker in the outlet box to protect the outlet to 15 amps. Would this meet code: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=... tbs%3Disch:1 Sorry, better link... http://electrical.hardwarestore.com/...er-620715.aspx yes |
Electrical wiring question - shop related
Jim Stewart wrote: wrote: On Tue, 7 Dec 2010 05:33:03 -0800 (PST), wrote: Is it permissable to have an outlet that is rated for less curent than the circuit breaker is? I wired the detached garage for 40A 220v service (it seemed like a lot of capacity 25 years ago!). In the garage is a subpanel with (4) 110V and (1) 30A 220v circuits. Originally the 30A breaker fed one single outlet (for the arc welder and compressor that I would someday own) - eventually I got tired of unplugging the welder to plug in the compressor or phase converter and now have (3) 220v outlets side by side in one box. Over the years I made up an extension cord to be able to weld on the opposite side of the garage and to power the bandsaw. I am considering adding an outlet at the bandsaw. The bandsaw has a 15A 220v plug on it. So back to my original question is there an issue with having a 15A outlet on a 30A circuit (the circuit is wired in #8 romex)? Does not meet code, but you COULD put a fuse or breaker in the outlet box to protect the outlet to 15 amps. Would this meet code: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=... tbs%3Disch:1 That is a single pole device made for 120 VAC. It would leave one side of the line unfused at 30A, so a short to ground could start a fire without tripping the breaker. -- For the last time: I am not a mad scientist, I'm just a very ticked off scientist!!! |
Electrical wiring question - shop related
wrote: On Tue, 07 Dec 2010 10:55:04 -0800, Jim Stewart wrote: Jim Stewart wrote: wrote: On Tue, 7 Dec 2010 05:33:03 -0800 (PST), wrote: Is it permissable to have an outlet that is rated for less curent than the circuit breaker is? I wired the detached garage for 40A 220v service (it seemed like a lot of capacity 25 years ago!). In the garage is a subpanel with (4) 110V and (1) 30A 220v circuits. Originally the 30A breaker fed one single outlet (for the arc welder and compressor that I would someday own) - eventually I got tired of unplugging the welder to plug in the compressor or phase converter and now have (3) 220v outlets side by side in one box. Over the years I made up an extension cord to be able to weld on the opposite side of the garage and to power the bandsaw. I am considering adding an outlet at the bandsaw. The bandsaw has a 15A 220v plug on it. So back to my original question is there an issue with having a 15A outlet on a 30A circuit (the circuit is wired in #8 romex)? Does not meet code, but you COULD put a fuse or breaker in the outlet box to protect the outlet to 15 amps. Would this meet code: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://images.orgill.com/200x200/6196232.jpg&imgrefurl=http://electrical.hardwarestore.com/14-45-box-covers.aspx%3Fpage%3D2%26sortBy%3D&usg=__Yfe2-HP7-KWbXQS2p59KoT3wvus=&h=200&w=200&sz=5&hl=en&start=5 8&zoom=0&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=3toQ_8LCe8N2JM:&tbnh=10 4&tbnw=104&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dfused%2Breceptacle%26start%3D42%26um% 3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DN%26ndsp%3D21%26 tbs%3Disch:1 Sorry, better link... http://electrical.hardwarestore.com/...er-620715.aspx yes NO! -- For the last time: I am not a mad scientist, I'm just a very ticked off scientist!!! |
Electrical wiring question - shop related
In article ,
Jim Stewart wrote: Jim Stewart wrote: wrote: On Tue, 7 Dec 2010 05:33:03 -0800 (PST), wrote: Is it permissable to have an outlet that is rated for less curent than the circuit breaker is? I wired the detached garage for 40A 220v service (it seemed like a lot of capacity 25 years ago!). In the garage is a subpanel with (4) 110V and (1) 30A 220v circuits. Originally the 30A breaker fed one single outlet (for the arc welder and compressor that I would someday own) - eventually I got tired of unplugging the welder to plug in the compressor or phase converter and now have (3) 220v outlets side by side in one box. Over the years I made up an extension cord to be able to weld on the opposite side of the garage and to power the bandsaw. I am considering adding an outlet at the bandsaw. The bandsaw has a 15A 220v plug on it. So back to my original question is there an issue with having a 15A outlet on a 30A circuit (the circuit is wired in #8 romex)? Does not meet code, but you COULD put a fuse or breaker in the outlet box to protect the outlet to 15 amps. Would this meet code: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...00x200/6196232 .jpg&imgrefurl=http://electrical.hardwarestore.com/14-45-box-covers.aspx%3Fp age%3D2%26sortBy%3D&usg=__Yfe2-HP7-KWbXQS2p59KoT3wvus=&h=200&w=200&sz=5&hl=e n&start=58&zoom=0&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=3toQ_8LCe8N2JM :&tbnh=104&tbnw=104&prev=/ images%3Fq%3Dfused%2Breceptacle%26start%3D42%26um% 3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff %26sa%3DN%26ndsp%3D21%26tbs%3Disch:1 Sorry, better link... http://electrical.hardwarestore.com/...fuse-box-cover -620715.aspx Rather than listen to internet debates, look it up in the US "National Electrical Code". One can buy used copies cheaply, as a new issue comes out every five years or so. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Electrical_Code What I do know is OK (by reading the NEC) is a subpanel feeding individual breakers (or fuses) which feed for instance individual machines. The machines may be direct wired or wired through a dedicated outlet. The wire sizes must always be sufficient to carry whatever the last breaker will pop at. In all circuits, all hot wires must be opened if any wire draws too much current. The neutral (white) and safety ground (green) wires are never opened or switched. So, a 110 volt single phase branch breaker opens only the one hot wire. A 220 volt single phase branch circuit breaker must open both hot wires, even if there is no neutral. There must always be a safety ground. A 220 volt three phase circuit breaker must open all three hot wires, even if there is no neutral. There must always be a safety ground. Joe Gwinn |
Electrical wiring question - shop related
On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 09:04:37 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote: Jim Stewart wrote: wrote: On Tue, 7 Dec 2010 05:33:03 -0800 (PST), wrote: Is it permissable to have an outlet that is rated for less curent than the circuit breaker is? I wired the detached garage for 40A 220v service (it seemed like a lot of capacity 25 years ago!). In the garage is a subpanel with (4) 110V and (1) 30A 220v circuits. Originally the 30A breaker fed one single outlet (for the arc welder and compressor that I would someday own) - eventually I got tired of unplugging the welder to plug in the compressor or phase converter and now have (3) 220v outlets side by side in one box. Over the years I made up an extension cord to be able to weld on the opposite side of the garage and to power the bandsaw. I am considering adding an outlet at the bandsaw. The bandsaw has a 15A 220v plug on it. So back to my original question is there an issue with having a 15A outlet on a 30A circuit (the circuit is wired in #8 romex)? Does not meet code, but you COULD put a fuse or breaker in the outlet box to protect the outlet to 15 amps. Would this meet code: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=... tbs%3Disch:1 That is a single pole device made for 120 VAC. It would leave one side of the line unfused at 30A, so a short to ground could start a fire without tripping the breaker. I had my welding receptacles wired with a neutral. My extension cord is 4 wire as well (twistlock rated for 120/240). I intend to put a box on the cart with outlet for welder and outlet for grinder. If I put a 120V breaker in the box to match the 120 outlet, that should work, right? The normal return would be the neutral. A short to ground would still trip the 120V breaker. Pete Keillor |
Electrical wiring question - shop related
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Jim Stewart wrote: wrote: On Tue, 7 Dec 2010 05:33:03 -0800 (PST), wrote: Is it permissable to have an outlet that is rated for less curent than the circuit breaker is? I wired the detached garage for 40A 220v service (it seemed like a lot of capacity 25 years ago!). In the garage is a subpanel with (4) 110V and (1) 30A 220v circuits. Originally the 30A breaker fed one single outlet (for the arc welder and compressor that I would someday own) - eventually I got tired of unplugging the welder to plug in the compressor or phase converter and now have (3) 220v outlets side by side in one box. Over the years I made up an extension cord to be able to weld on the opposite side of the garage and to power the bandsaw. I am considering adding an outlet at the bandsaw. The bandsaw has a 15A 220v plug on it. So back to my original question is there an issue with having a 15A outlet on a 30A circuit (the circuit is wired in #8 romex)? Does not meet code, but you COULD put a fuse or breaker in the outlet box to protect the outlet to 15 amps. Would this meet code: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=... tbs%3Disch:1 That is a single pole device made for 120 VAC. It would leave one side of the line unfused at 30A, so a short to ground could start a fire without tripping the breaker. Of course you are correct. When I posted the picture I had somehow misunderstood that he wanted to break off one side of the 220 for a 110 outlet. For 220 both sides must be protected. This device would be better than nothing in that it would limit the hot- to-hot current to 15 amperes, but it would not meet code. |
Electrical wiring question - shop related
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Electrical wiring question - shop related
Yes, it's legal for 120 Volt but a lot of people try that for 240 with a single fuse or a single pole breaker. Fires and electrocutions aren't worth the few cents they save. :) -- For the last time: I am not a mad scientist, I'm just a very ticked off scientist!!! |
Electrical wiring question - shop related
On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 09:04:37 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote: Jim Stewart wrote: wrote: On Tue, 7 Dec 2010 05:33:03 -0800 (PST), wrote: Is it permissable to have an outlet that is rated for less curent than the circuit breaker is? I wired the detached garage for 40A 220v service (it seemed like a lot of capacity 25 years ago!). In the garage is a subpanel with (4) 110V and (1) 30A 220v circuits. Originally the 30A breaker fed one single outlet (for the arc welder and compressor that I would someday own) - eventually I got tired of unplugging the welder to plug in the compressor or phase converter and now have (3) 220v outlets side by side in one box. Over the years I made up an extension cord to be able to weld on the opposite side of the garage and to power the bandsaw. I am considering adding an outlet at the bandsaw. The bandsaw has a 15A 220v plug on it. So back to my original question is there an issue with having a 15A outlet on a 30A circuit (the circuit is wired in #8 romex)? Does not meet code, but you COULD put a fuse or breaker in the outlet box to protect the outlet to 15 amps. Would this meet code: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=... tbs%3Disch:1 That is a single pole device made for 120 VAC. It would leave one side of the line unfused at 30A, so a short to ground could start a fire without tripping the breaker. So install 2 of them - one for each 120 volt circuit. And a SHORT will pop a 30 in in hurry. |
Electrical wiring question - shop related
On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 10:39:58 -0500, Joseph Gwinn
wrote: In article , Jim Stewart wrote: Jim Stewart wrote: wrote: On Tue, 7 Dec 2010 05:33:03 -0800 (PST), wrote: Is it permissable to have an outlet that is rated for less curent than the circuit breaker is? I wired the detached garage for 40A 220v service (it seemed like a lot of capacity 25 years ago!). In the garage is a subpanel with (4) 110V and (1) 30A 220v circuits. Originally the 30A breaker fed one single outlet (for the arc welder and compressor that I would someday own) - eventually I got tired of unplugging the welder to plug in the compressor or phase converter and now have (3) 220v outlets side by side in one box. Over the years I made up an extension cord to be able to weld on the opposite side of the garage and to power the bandsaw. I am considering adding an outlet at the bandsaw. The bandsaw has a 15A 220v plug on it. So back to my original question is there an issue with having a 15A outlet on a 30A circuit (the circuit is wired in #8 romex)? Does not meet code, but you COULD put a fuse or breaker in the outlet box to protect the outlet to 15 amps. Would this meet code: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...00x200/6196232 .jpg&imgrefurl=http://electrical.hardwarestore.com/14-45-box-covers.aspx%3Fp age%3D2%26sortBy%3D&usg=__Yfe2-HP7-KWbXQS2p59KoT3wvus=&h=200&w=200&sz=5&hl=e n&start=58&zoom=0&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=3toQ_8LCe8N2JM :&tbnh=104&tbnw=104&prev=/ images%3Fq%3Dfused%2Breceptacle%26start%3D42%26um% 3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff %26sa%3DN%26ndsp%3D21%26tbs%3Disch:1 Sorry, better link... http://electrical.hardwarestore.com/...fuse-box-cover -620715.aspx Rather than listen to internet debates, look it up in the US "National Electrical Code". One can buy used copies cheaply, as a new issue comes out every five years or so. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Electrical_Code What I do know is OK (by reading the NEC) is a subpanel feeding individual breakers (or fuses) which feed for instance individual machines. The machines may be direct wired or wired through a dedicated outlet. The wire sizes must always be sufficient to carry whatever the last breaker will pop at. In all circuits, all hot wires must be opened if any wire draws too much current. The neutral (white) and safety ground (green) wires are never opened or switched. So, a 110 volt single phase branch breaker opens only the one hot wire. A 220 volt single phase branch circuit breaker must open both hot wires, even if there is no neutral. There must always be a safety ground. A 220 volt three phase circuit breaker must open all three hot wires, even if there is no neutral. There must always be a safety ground. Joe Gwinn My bad - I read 15 amp 120 volt plug. If the band saw is 220, he DOES need a double pole breaker or dual fuse disconnect. Might not be 100% to code, but would be SAFE to take a standard 220 fused disconnect and put a cord with a plug to fit the 40 amp cord on one side, and a 15 amp or 20 amp 220 receptacle on the other side. |
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