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Air tools
Air tools are a new thing to me. At this point all I own is a brad nailer
which I have not used in anger. I have been looking at the general principles guiding air tool use and there are questions that I have not found satisfactory answer to: 1) Air tools are usually given specs including operating pressure (often 90 psi) and air flow (in CFM). If the available compressor is not rated for the given flow "the tool will not perform properly". How is this manifested? E.g. a grinder: Will it turn slower? Less torque? Both? Will it not turn at all? Will it keep turning till the operating pressure drops to some level and it stops, i.e is it an on-off thing? 2) Lowering the compressor operating pressure should increase the available flow. What does lowering the operating pressure do to the air-tool? I am looking at pressure x flow as similar to current x voltage but I am not sure this analogy holds in this application. If the electrical analogy holds I cannot see the air tool "suck" more air because the pressure dropped, in fact I would intuitively assume *less* flow. 3) In practical terms, if a tool requiring "average" 3 CFM is operated from a 2.7 CFM @90 psi will it just underperform all the time or will it require a shorter duty cycle (and when "on" it will run at full power)? At this point I do not see much use for air tools in my shop but one never knows. -- Michael Koblic, Campbell River, BC |
Air tools
On Sun, 7 Nov 2010 22:27:43 -0800, "Michael Koblic"
wrote: Air tools are a new thing to me. At this point all I own is a brad nailer which I have not used in anger. I have been looking at the general principles guiding air tool use and there are questions that I have not found satisfactory answer to: 1) Air tools are usually given specs including operating pressure (often 90 psi) and air flow (in CFM). If the available compressor is not rated for the given flow "the tool will not perform properly". How is this manifested? E.g. a grinder: Will it turn slower? Less torque? Both? Will it not turn at all? Will it keep turning till the operating pressure drops to some level and it stops, i.e is it an on-off thing? 2) Lowering the compressor operating pressure should increase the available flow. What does lowering the operating pressure do to the air-tool? I am looking at pressure x flow as similar to current x voltage but I am not sure this analogy holds in this application. If the electrical analogy holds I cannot see the air tool "suck" more air because the pressure dropped, in fact I would intuitively assume *less* flow. 3) In practical terms, if a tool requiring "average" 3 CFM is operated from a 2.7 CFM @90 psi will it just underperform all the time or will it require a shorter duty cycle (and when "on" it will run at full power)? At this point I do not see much use for air tools in my shop but one never knows. Interesting question(s) and all very valid ones. Ill have to ponder the answers, assuming someone else doesnt do a far far better job of answering than I could. Gunner -- "Confiscating wealth from those who have earned it, inherited it, or got lucky is never going to help 'the poor.' Poverty isn't caused by some people having more money than others, just as obesity isn't caused by McDonald's serving super-sized orders of French fries Poverty, like obesity, is caused by the life choices that dictate results." - John Tucci, |
Air tools
Michael Koblic wrote:
Air tools are a new thing to me. At this point all I own is a brad nailer which I have not used in anger. In anger? ??? 2) Lowering the compressor operating pressure should increase the available flow. What does lowering the operating pressure do to the air-tool? I am looking at pressure x flow as similar to current x voltage but I am not sure this analogy holds in this application. Yes, that's an almost perfect analogy. Voltage is pressure, and current is flow. The resulting work done (turning the tool) is power. (well, power is the rate of doing work; work is energy.) The other questions might need more study, but in general, if you don't have enough pressure or flow, the thing won't do its job - it might not turn, it might turn slowly, or weakly. So, yeah, add up the needs of all your air tools, double it, and get a compressor that can provide that much air. Cheers! Rich |
Air tools
Generally, you need both the rated pressure and rated flow to get
reasonable performance out of an air tool. The pressure feeding an air motor primarily influences torque, since an increase in pressure increases the force on the vanes inside the turbine. For an air drill, for example, not enough torque and the tool will stall. Flow rate in an air motor primarily influences speed since it is the amount of air flowing through the tool. In a tool, this directly correlates to speed, which is also important to get any sort of useful work out of an air tool. Many air tools have a fair amount of internal resistance and the valving is dependent on the components spinning, so if you try to start them under load or the pressure is too low, air will simply flow around the vanes and the tool will not spin. One way to boost your compressor's capabilities a bit to use tools that are just a bit too large is to connect one or more air storage tanks downstream from your compressor. You will still have to take breaks to allow the compressor to catch up, but the buffer will help you, for example, to run a 3cfm tool on a 2.5cfm compressor. Don't forget that your compressor has a duty cycle (usually under 50%) so even if you can make it work by running the compressor continously, you and the compressor won't be very happy afterwards. Michael |
Air tools
"Rich Grise" wrote in message ... Michael Koblic wrote: Air tools are a new thing to me. At this point all I own is a brad nailer which I have not used in anger. In anger? ??? On the foreheads of doorknocking evangelists? 2) Lowering the compressor operating pressure should increase the available flow. What does lowering the operating pressure do to the air-tool? I am looking at pressure x flow as similar to current x voltage but I am not sure this analogy holds in this application. Yes, that's an almost perfect analogy. Voltage is pressure, and current is flow. The resulting work done (turning the tool) is power. (well, power is the rate of doing work; work is energy.) The other questions might need more study, but in general, if you don't have enough pressure or flow, the thing won't do its job - it might not turn, it might turn slowly, or weakly. So, yeah, add up the needs of all your air tools, double it, and get a compressor that can provide that much air. Cheers! Rich |
Air tools
On Sun, 7 Nov 2010 22:27:43 -0800, "Michael Koblic"
wrote: Air tools are a new thing to me. At this point all I own is a brad nailer which I have not used in anger. Very good. Using a nail gun in anger can get you into trouble. Look at what Danny Glover (the poor cop in "Lethal Weapon") went through. But are they really legal up thar in Canadia? I have been looking at the general principles guiding air tool use and there are questions that I have not found satisfactory answer to: 1) Air tools are usually given specs including operating pressure (often 90 psi) and air flow (in CFM). If the available compressor is not rated for the given flow "the tool will not perform properly". How is this manifested? E.g. a grinder: Will it turn slower? Less torque? Both? Will it not turn at all? Will it keep turning till the operating pressure drops to some level and it stops, i.e is it an on-off thing? I operate my portable compressor (Ingy Rand 3/4hp) with a separate storage tank. The 5gal tank hold enough air to fire my brad nailer/ stapler about 100 times before it gets down to 55psi, the lowest usable point for the gun. It works satisfactorily from 120 (my max) down to 55psi. I've taken this combo on jobs for nearly two decades now. Air drills, impact wrenches, ratchets, sanders, chisels, and grinders slow down and lose torque as the pressure drops. Sandblasters and air chisels & grinders are probably the worst offenders for air usage. If you'll ever need to use this type of tool on a large project, get a large cfm compressor. Otherwise, a smaller compressor will work fine for you. Extra air storage can be had in 5 gallon incrememts for about $30USD a pop. (Dunno 'bout Canuckistani Ducats.) That can extend tool time without resorting to a very large compressor (both space- and cfm-wise, but only if you don't use lots of air on a daily basis. 2) Lowering the compressor operating pressure should increase the available flow. What does lowering the operating pressure do to the air-tool? I am looking at pressure x flow as similar to current x voltage but I am not sure this analogy holds in this application. If the electrical analogy holds I cannot see the air tool "suck" more air because the pressure dropped, in fact I would intuitively assume *less* flow. It depends on the tool, as listed above. 3) In practical terms, if a tool requiring "average" 3 CFM is operated from a 2.7 CFM @90 psi will it just underperform all the time or will it require a shorter duty cycle (and when "on" it will run at full power)? Shorter duty cycle. But remember, just because a tool is listed at 3cfm doesn't mean that you'll be using it at that level. When you put a staple every three inches on a 150' banner, it'll take the full cfm. Slowly putting a couple dozen brads or staples into a birdhouse over the course of ten minutes, as you line things up, won't use that much air. Usage determines volume and flow. At this point I do not see much use for air tools in my shop but one never knows. They're nice tools. A blow gun with a non-OSHA (US safety Nazis) tip is a handy tool for blowing dust and sawdust out of the shop, drying out wet electronics, etc. I spent about 15 years as a mechanic and 95% of my power tool work was done with air. It works well. And once you start using air tools, you'll find other uses for both the tools and the air. Go for it. It diversifies your way of thinking, too. -- Happiness is not a station you arrive at, but a manner of traveling. -- Margaret Lee Runbeck |
Air tools
On Mon, 8 Nov 2010 19:09:52 +0800, "Dennis" wrote:
"Rich Grise" wrote in message ... Michael Koblic wrote: Air tools are a new thing to me. At this point all I own is a brad nailer which I have not used in anger. In anger? ??? On the foreheads of doorknocking evangelists? I can see it now..."Here's your !@#$%^& Watchtower magazine back!" and "Let me staple your bible to your head so you don't lose it." -- Happiness is not a station you arrive at, but a manner of traveling. -- Margaret Lee Runbeck |
Air tools
"Larry Jaques" wrote in message ... On Mon, 8 Nov 2010 19:09:52 +0800, "Dennis" wrote: "Rich Grise" wrote in message ... Michael Koblic wrote: Air tools are a new thing to me. At this point all I own is a brad nailer which I have not used in anger. In anger? ??? On the foreheads of doorknocking evangelists? I can see it now..."Here's your !@#$%^& Watchtower magazine back!" and "Let me staple your bible to your head so you don't lose it." -- Happiness is not a station you arrive at, but a manner of traveling. -- Margaret Lee Runbeck Ha ha ha - that's the one! It really annoys me the way the JW's bring the nice young women along with them..... |
Air tools
"Larry Jaques" wrote in message ... On Sun, 7 Nov 2010 22:27:43 -0800, "Michael Koblic" wrote: Air tools are a new thing to me. At this point all I own is a brad nailer which I have not used in anger. Very good. Using a nail gun in anger can get you into trouble. Look at what Danny Glover (the poor cop in "Lethal Weapon") went through. But are they really legal up thar in Canadia? I have been looking at the general principles guiding air tool use and there are questions that I have not found satisfactory answer to: 1) Air tools are usually given specs including operating pressure (often 90 psi) and air flow (in CFM). If the available compressor is not rated for the given flow "the tool will not perform properly". How is this manifested? E.g. a grinder: Will it turn slower? Less torque? Both? Will it not turn at all? Will it keep turning till the operating pressure drops to some level and it stops, i.e is it an on-off thing? I operate my portable compressor (Ingy Rand 3/4hp) with a separate storage tank. The 5gal tank hold enough air to fire my brad nailer/ stapler about 100 times before it gets down to 55psi, the lowest usable point for the gun. It works satisfactorily from 120 (my max) down to 55psi. I've taken this combo on jobs for nearly two decades now. Air drills, impact wrenches, ratchets, sanders, chisels, and grinders slow down and lose torque as the pressure drops. Sandblasters and air chisels & grinders are probably the worst offenders for air usage. If you'll ever need to use this type of tool I've got a really small ( & cheap) compressor. I use the air chisel for peening nutserts into sheet metal works great - only needs a short burst of air thougth. Air riveter is another really useful tool. on a large project, get a large cfm compressor. Otherwise, a smaller compressor will work fine for you. Extra air storage can be had in 5 gallon incrememts for about $30USD a pop. (Dunno 'bout Canuckistani Ducats.) That can extend tool time without resorting to a very large compressor (both space- and cfm-wise, but only if you don't use lots of air on a daily basis. 2) Lowering the compressor operating pressure should increase the available flow. What does lowering the operating pressure do to the air-tool? I am looking at pressure x flow as similar to current x voltage but I am not sure this analogy holds in this application. If the electrical analogy holds I cannot see the air tool "suck" more air because the pressure dropped, in fact I would intuitively assume *less* flow. It depends on the tool, as listed above. 3) In practical terms, if a tool requiring "average" 3 CFM is operated from a 2.7 CFM @90 psi will it just underperform all the time or will it require a shorter duty cycle (and when "on" it will run at full power)? Shorter duty cycle. But remember, just because a tool is listed at 3cfm doesn't mean that you'll be using it at that level. When you put a staple every three inches on a 150' banner, it'll take the full cfm. Slowly putting a couple dozen brads or staples into a birdhouse over the course of ten minutes, as you line things up, won't use that much air. Usage determines volume and flow. At this point I do not see much use for air tools in my shop but one never knows. They're nice tools. A blow gun with a non-OSHA (US safety Nazis) tip is a handy tool for blowing dust and sawdust out of the shop, drying out wet electronics, etc. I spent about 15 years as a mechanic and 95% of my power tool work was done with air. It works well. And once you start using air tools, you'll find other uses for both the tools and the air. Go for it. It diversifies your way of thinking, too. -- Happiness is not a station you arrive at, but a manner of traveling. -- Margaret Lee Runbeck |
Air tools
Michael Koblic writes:
3) In practical terms, if a tool requiring "average" 3 CFM is operated from a 2.7 CFM @90 psi will it just underperform all the time or will it require a shorter duty cycle (and when "on" it will run at full power)? You can run any tool off a tanked compressor at full power. The tank represents a near-infinite CFM source. The duty cycle is the limitation. If you put an air-hungry tool like a grinder on a small compressor, the tank drains in a matter of seconds. Beware that tools are typically way underrated for air consumption and compressors overrated for air production. See my page: http://www.truetex.com/aircompressors.htm |
Air tools
On Nov 8, 1:27*am, "Michael Koblic" wrote:
Air tools are a new thing to me. At this point all I own is a brad nailer which I have not used in anger. I have been looking at the general principles guiding air tool use and there are questions that I have not found satisfactory answer to: 1) Air tools are usually given specs including operating pressure (often 90 psi) and air flow (in CFM). If the available compressor is not rated for the given flow "the tool will not perform properly". How is this manifested? E.g. a grinder: Will it turn slower? Less torque? Both? Will it not turn at all? Will it keep turning till the operating pressure drops to some level and it stops, i.e is it an on-off thing? 2) Lowering the compressor operating pressure should increase the available flow. What does lowering the operating pressure do to the air-tool? I am looking at pressure x flow as similar to current x voltage but I am not sure this analogy holds in this application. If the electrical analogy holds I cannot see the air tool "suck" more air because the pressure dropped, in fact I would intuitively assume *less* flow. 3) In practical terms, if a tool requiring "average" 3 CFM is operated from a 2.7 CFM @90 psi will it just underperform all the time or will it require a shorter duty cycle (and when "on" it will run at full power)? At this point I do not see much use for air tools in my shop but one never knows. -- Michael Koblic, Campbell River, BC You run them until they stop working well enough, then wait for the compressor to recover. Electric motors generate a speed-dependent opposing voltage that limits current and thus they draw more when slowed down. Overall I prefer electric tools except for where electricity could be dangerous, like working under the car outdoors or dragging the cord over freshly cut sheetmetal edges. Big thud outside, gotta go check it out... jsw |
Air tools
Dennis wrote:
... I use the air chisel for peening nutserts into sheet metal works great -... Sounds like a good idea. How about some details? E.g., do you use a mandrel? Bob |
Air tools
"Bob Engelhardt" wrote in message ... Dennis wrote: ... I use the air chisel for peening nutserts into sheet metal works great -... Sounds like a good idea. How about some details? E.g., do you use a mandrel? Bob I've turned down a few of the chisel tips so they have a pin on the end. I've snapped one of after a few hundred rivnuts (the metal is hardened & a bit brittle) so I drilled it out in the lathe and pressed a ground dowel pin into the end. I fit most of them into largish metal enclosures, I have a piece of 40mm round bar about 10" long that has a 3.5mm hole in the end and a bit of a counterbore for the hex part of the nutsert to sit into. I place the nutsert in the end of the bar, then reach inside the box and pop the nutsert up through the hole in the enclosure. With the other hand I just point the air chisel down at the nutsert, put the pin part of the 'chisel' tip through the nutsert into the roundbar. Then push down hard, hit the trigger and brrrap, its done. A bit like below. The chisel part has a bit of a bevel on it (via the lathe) to peen the rivnut outward rather than just downward. When set up I can install one about every 10 seconds. | | | | | | | | | | -| |- | | | | |_| ====|| ||====== enclosure wall [_| |_] |=| |=| | ---| |--- | | | | | | | | | | | | | | - | | | | | |
Air tools
On 2010-11-08, Michael Koblic wrote:
Air tools are a new thing to me. At this point all I own is a brad nailer which I have not used in anger. I have been looking at the general principles guiding air tool use and there are questions that I have not found satisfactory answer to: 1) Air tools are usually given specs including operating pressure (often 90 psi) and air flow (in CFM). If the available compressor is not rated for the given flow "the tool will not perform properly". How is this manifested? If the compressor cannot keep up, inlet pressure will drop. E.g. a grinder: Will it turn slower? Less torque? Both? Both Will it not turn at all? Will it keep turning till the operating pressure drops to some level and it stops, i.e is it an on-off thing? Yes 2) Lowering the compressor operating pressure should increase the available flow. Usually, not by much. What does lowering the operating pressure do to the air-tool? I am looking at pressure x flow as similar to current x voltage but I am not sure this analogy holds in this application. If the electrical analogy holds I cannot see the air tool "suck" more air because the pressure dropped, in fact I would intuitively assume *less* flow. Usually that is the case indeed. 3) In practical terms, if a tool requiring "average" 3 CFM is operated from a 2.7 CFM @90 psi will it just underperform all the time or will it require a shorter duty cycle (and when "on" it will run at full power)? It will underperform. At this point I do not see much use for air tools in my shop but one never knows. you will. i |
Air tools
"Dennis" wrote in message . au... "Rich Grise" wrote in message ... Michael Koblic wrote: Air tools are a new thing to me. At this point all I own is a brad nailer which I have not used in anger. In anger? ??? On the foreheads of doorknocking evangelists? Too bad the biggest morons of them all wear protective bike helmets. I wonder if that's for bike riding or brad gun protection ............. Steve |
Air tools
"Michael Koblic" wrote in message ... Air tools are a new thing to me. At this point all I own is a brad nailer which I have not used in anger. I have been looking at the general principles guiding air tool use and there are questions that I have not found satisfactory answer to: 1) Air tools are usually given specs including operating pressure (often 90 psi) and air flow (in CFM). If the available compressor is not rated for the given flow "the tool will not perform properly". How is this manifested? E.g. a grinder: Will it turn slower? Less torque? Both? Will it not turn at all? Will it keep turning till the operating pressure drops to some level and it stops, i.e is it an on-off thing? 2) Lowering the compressor operating pressure should increase the available flow. What does lowering the operating pressure do to the air-tool? I am looking at pressure x flow as similar to current x voltage but I am not sure this analogy holds in this application. If the electrical analogy holds I cannot see the air tool "suck" more air because the pressure dropped, in fact I would intuitively assume *less* flow. 3) In practical terms, if a tool requiring "average" 3 CFM is operated from a 2.7 CFM @90 psi will it just underperform all the time or will it require a shorter duty cycle (and when "on" it will run at full power)? At this point I do not see much use for air tools in my shop but one never knows. -- Michael Koblic, Campbell River, BC It all depends on the tool. Yes, they do go up and down in performance as pressure in the tank does. The trick is to buy a compressor with a tank so big that the tool can never get ahead of it. Air tools are very useful. Whenever I use mine, they save a lot of time and work. Steve Heart surgery pending? Read up and prepare. Learn how to care for a friend. http://cabgbypasssurgery.com |
Air tools
"Michael Koblic" wrote in message
... Air tools are a new thing to me. At this point all I own is a brad nailer which I have not used in anger. I have been looking at the general principles guiding air tool use and there are questions that I have not found satisfactory answer to: 1) Air tools are usually given specs including operating pressure (often 90 psi) and air flow (in CFM). If the available compressor is not rated for the given flow "the tool will not perform properly". How is this manifested? E.g. a grinder: Will it turn slower? Less torque? Both? Will it not turn at all? Will it keep turning till the operating pressure drops to some level and it stops, i.e is it an on-off thing? 2) Lowering the compressor operating pressure should increase the available flow. What does lowering the operating pressure do to the air-tool? I am looking at pressure x flow as similar to current x voltage but I am not sure this analogy holds in this application. If the electrical analogy holds I cannot see the air tool "suck" more air because the pressure dropped, in fact I would intuitively assume *less* flow. 3) In practical terms, if a tool requiring "average" 3 CFM is operated from a 2.7 CFM @90 psi will it just underperform all the time or will it require a shorter duty cycle (and when "on" it will run at full power)? At this point I do not see much use for air tools in my shop but one never knows. Seat of the pants answer for you is that my compressor kicks on when tank pressure drops below about 90. When it kicks on I stop working until it kicks off. Rated CFM duration is based on tank volume and compressor volume and speed. Also possibly by pressure switch settings, but a small compressor is not going to be able to fill the tank faster than you can empty it. You can run a 1/2 impact on a one gallon compressor if it exceeds 90 PSI, but only at full power for a few seconds. I am sure one of these very knowledgeable guys will give you a more complete answer. I have no problems with impacts and air wrenches. With air grinders and air sanders I can work about 30-40% duty cycle. With the impacts you rarely work at close to that duty cycle so you never notice. Oddly enough I never seem to have an issue with paint sprayers. They tend to be used continuous duty, but they operate at much lower pressure for most of the paints I have sprayed. (Just remember a water separator) |
Air tools
Thanks - I printed a copy for the shop. Bob
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Air tools
Michael Koblic wrote:
Air tools are a new thing to me. At this point all I own is a brad nailer which I have not used in anger. I have been looking at the general principles guiding air tool use and there are questions that I have not found satisfactory answer to: 1) Air tools are usually given specs including operating pressure (often 90 psi) and air flow (in CFM). If the available compressor is not rated for the given flow "the tool will not perform properly". How is this manifested? E.g. a grinder: Will it turn slower? Less torque? Both? Will it not turn at all? Will it keep turning till the operating pressure drops to some level and it stops, i.e is it an on-off thing? 2) Lowering the compressor operating pressure should increase the available flow. What does lowering the operating pressure do to the air-tool? I am looking at pressure x flow as similar to current x voltage but I am not sure this analogy holds in this application. If the electrical analogy holds I cannot see the air tool "suck" more air because the pressure dropped, in fact I would intuitively assume *less* flow. 3) In practical terms, if a tool requiring "average" 3 CFM is operated from a 2.7 CFM @90 psi will it just underperform all the time or will it require a shorter duty cycle (and when "on" it will run at full power)? At this point I do not see much use for air tools in my shop but one never knows. -- Michael Koblic, Campbell River, BC Depends on the shop and what you do there. Wood shop - Air power likely would be for nail guns, screw guns, drills, sanding, spraying finishes. Metal shop - Air powered lifts, winches, grinding, surface prep (sandblasting, grit blasting) plasma cutting, drills, nibblers, sanders, surface finishing, large assembly tools. Auto shop - You name it. -- Steve W. |
Air tools
On Nov 7, 10:27*pm, "Michael Koblic" wrote:
Air tools are a new thing to me. At this point all I own is a brad nailer which I have not used in anger. I have been looking at the general principles guiding air tool use and there are questions that I have not found satisfactory answer to: 1) Air tools are usually given specs including operating pressure (often 90 psi) and air flow (in CFM). If the available compressor is not rated for the given flow "the tool will not perform properly". How is this manifested? E.g. a grinder: Will it turn slower? Less torque? Both? Will it not turn at all? Will it keep turning till the operating pressure drops to some level and it stops, i.e is it an on-off thing? 2) Lowering the compressor operating pressure should increase the available flow. What does lowering the operating pressure do to the air-tool? I am looking at pressure x flow as similar to current x voltage but I am not sure this analogy holds in this application. If the electrical analogy holds I cannot see the air tool "suck" more air because the pressure dropped, in fact I would intuitively assume *less* flow. 3) In practical terms, if a tool requiring "average" 3 CFM is operated from a 2.7 CFM @90 psi will it just underperform all the time or will it require a shorter duty cycle (and when "on" it will run at full power)? At this point I do not see much use for air tools in my shop but one never knows. -- Michael Koblic, Campbell River, BC Lots of good answers. My best answer is air tools usually don't get hot like electric ones do. Drill 100 holes with an air drill and it's still cool when you are done. Paul |
Air tools
"Dennis" wrote in message
. au... [...] Air riveter is another really useful tool. First of all, thanks to every one for their efforts in answering. Rivet tool, hm. I was watching them use it on "How it's made", my favourite Discovery channel program (for someone without any training in engineering it is an amazing source of ideas and education). That is one tool I can see in my future. I need to look at this further. [...] They're nice tools. A blow gun with a non-OSHA (US safety Nazis) tip is a handy tool for blowing dust and sawdust out of the shop, drying out wet electronics, etc. I spent about 15 years as a mechanic and 95% of my power tool work was done with air. It works well. And once you start using air tools, you'll find other uses for both the tools and the air. Go for it. It diversifies your way of thinking, too. If one counts an air gun as an "air tool" then yes, that is what I bought the small compressor for. It is 4 gallons, ungodly noisy, but I can fill the tank at the beginning of the session and then switch it off and still have enough air in the tank at the end. I have a small spray gun which is supposed to run within the limits of this compressor but have not used it yet - that will probably come when I enter the woodworking phase (I cannot do metalwork and woodwork at the same time - too messy. I have divided my time for woodworking projects and metal projects). -- Michael Koblic, Campbell River, BC |
Air tools
KD7HB wrote:
Lots of good answers. My best answer is air tools usually don't get hot like electric ones do. Drill 100 holes with an air drill and it's still cool when you are done. Paul One of the big reasons we have some of the air tools on the FD rigs is because you can use them in and under water. Hard to use a battery or electric sawzall that way. You can also use them in environments where gas/oil are around with MUCH less danger than other tools. -- Steve W. |
Air tools
On Mon, 8 Nov 2010 13:53:35 -0800 (PST), KD7HB
wrote: On Nov 7, 10:27Â*pm, "Michael Koblic" wrote: Air tools are a new thing to me. At this point all I own is a brad nailer which I have not used in anger. I have been looking at the general principles guiding air tool use and there are questions that I have not found satisfactory answer to: 1) Air tools are usually given specs including operating pressure (often 90 psi) and air flow (in CFM). If the available compressor is not rated for the given flow "the tool will not perform properly". How is this manifested? E.g. a grinder: Will it turn slower? Less torque? Both? Will it not turn at all? Will it keep turning till the operating pressure drops to some level and it stops, i.e is it an on-off thing? 2) Lowering the compressor operating pressure should increase the available flow. What does lowering the operating pressure do to the air-tool? I am looking at pressure x flow as similar to current x voltage but I am not sure this analogy holds in this application. If the electrical analogy holds I cannot see the air tool "suck" more air because the pressure dropped, in fact I would intuitively assume *less* flow. 3) In practical terms, if a tool requiring "average" 3 CFM is operated from a 2.7 CFM @90 psi will it just underperform all the time or will it require a shorter duty cycle (and when "on" it will run at full power)? At this point I do not see much use for air tools in my shop but one never knows. -- Michael Koblic, Campbell River, BC Lots of good answers. My best answer is air tools usually don't get hot like electric ones do. Drill 100 holes with an air drill and it's still cool when you are done. Paul In fact it can be downright COLD. |
Air tools
On Mon, 8 Nov 2010 20:18:07 +0800, "Dennis" wrote:
"Larry Jaques" wrote in message .. . On Mon, 8 Nov 2010 19:09:52 +0800, "Dennis" wrote: "Rich Grise" wrote in message ... Michael Koblic wrote: Air tools are a new thing to me. At this point all I own is a brad nailer which I have not used in anger. In anger? ??? On the foreheads of doorknocking evangelists? I can see it now..."Here's your !@#$%^& Watchtower magazine back!" and "Let me staple your bible to your head so you don't lose it." Ha ha ha - that's the one! It really annoys me the way the JW's bring the nice young women along with them..... That's precisely the time to think quickly and do some trolling. Y'see, you jump up, quickly strip bareass nekkid, then open the door completely naked with a a raging organ homing in on the young hottie. If you're lucky, she'll jump in the door, lock it, and never return to church. Preacher's daughters are the best for that. Smokin', n'est-ce pas? -- Happiness is not a station you arrive at, but a manner of traveling. -- Margaret Lee Runbeck |
Air tools
Richard J Kinch wrote:
Michael Koblic writes: 3) In practical terms, if a tool requiring "average" 3 CFM is operated from a 2.7 CFM @90 psi will it just underperform all the time or will it require a shorter duty cycle (and when "on" it will run at full power)? You can run any tool off a tanked compressor at full power. The tank represents a near-infinite CFM source. The duty cycle is the limitation. If you put an air-hungry tool like a grinder on a small compressor, the tank drains in a matter of seconds. Beware that tools are typically way underrated for air consumption and compressors overrated for air production. See my page: http://www.truetex.com/aircompressors.htm The sizing of the hose to the air tool being used is very important. Try running a one inch impact gun with a three eighths hose and you immediately get the idea. Just like running a two hp motor on a pair of #24 wires. I have used air tools for many years and like them better than electric tools. The are lighter, no chance of getting shocked ( unless you drill into a live wire) and you will not burn them up with hard use or is you stall them. Just keep them oiled and they will last a long time. The biggest drawback is having an air hose handy but that is determined on how you set up your shop. John |
Air tools
On Mon, 08 Nov 2010 03:53:35 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote: On Sun, 7 Nov 2010 22:27:43 -0800, "Michael Koblic" wrote: Air tools are a new thing to me. At this point all I own is a brad nailer which I have not used in anger. Very good. Using a nail gun in anger can get you into trouble. Look at what Danny Glover (the poor cop in "Lethal Weapon") went through. But are they really legal up thar in Canadia? I have been looking at the general principles guiding air tool use and there are questions that I have not found satisfactory answer to: 1) Air tools are usually given specs including operating pressure (often 90 psi) and air flow (in CFM). If the available compressor is not rated for the given flow "the tool will not perform properly". How is this manifested? E.g. a grinder: Will it turn slower? Less torque? Both? Will it not turn at all? Will it keep turning till the operating pressure drops to some level and it stops, i.e is it an on-off thing? I operate my portable compressor (Ingy Rand 3/4hp) with a separate storage tank. The 5gal tank hold enough air to fire my brad nailer/ stapler about 100 times before it gets down to 55psi, the lowest usable point for the gun. It works satisfactorily from 120 (my max) down to 55psi. I've taken this combo on jobs for nearly two decades now. Air drills, impact wrenches, ratchets, sanders, chisels, and grinders slow down and lose torque as the pressure drops. Sandblasters and air chisels & grinders are probably the worst offenders for air usage. If you'll ever need to use this type of tool on a large project, get a large cfm compressor. Otherwise, a smaller compressor will work fine for you. Extra air storage can be had in 5 gallon incrememts for about $30USD a pop. (Dunno 'bout Canuckistani Ducats.) That can extend tool time without resorting to a very large compressor (both space- and cfm-wise, but only if you don't use lots of air on a daily basis. My five gallon increments cost only what it costs for fittings to connect them into the system - I use twenty pound barbeque tanks I pick up at the curb and after a half dozen purges with air over a couple weeks the smell is mostly gone. I have a 30 pound tank on my 2 CFM, $3 Gardner Denver compressor, a twenty pounder after my $1 regulator/filter and, currently six more I can hook in for more capacity or as air pigs. 2) Lowering the compressor operating pressure should increase the available flow. What does lowering the operating pressure do to the air-tool? I am looking at pressure x flow as similar to current x voltage but I am not sure this analogy holds in this application. If the electrical analogy holds I cannot see the air tool "suck" more air because the pressure dropped, in fact I would intuitively assume *less* flow. It depends on the tool, as listed above. 3) In practical terms, if a tool requiring "average" 3 CFM is operated from a 2.7 CFM @90 psi will it just underperform all the time or will it require a shorter duty cycle (and when "on" it will run at full power)? Shorter duty cycle. But remember, just because a tool is listed at 3cfm doesn't mean that you'll be using it at that level. When you put a staple every three inches on a 150' banner, it'll take the full cfm. Slowly putting a couple dozen brads or staples into a birdhouse over the course of ten minutes, as you line things up, won't use that much air. Usage determines volume and flow. At this point I do not see much use for air tools in my shop but one never knows. They're nice tools. A blow gun with a non-OSHA (US safety Nazis) tip is a handy tool for blowing dust and sawdust out of the shop, drying out wet electronics, etc. I spent about 15 years as a mechanic and 95% of my power tool work was done with air. It works well. And once you start using air tools, you'll find other uses for both the tools and the air. Go for it. It diversifies your way of thinking, too. Last summer I came across a beautiful old Snap On blow gun in a box of "good stuff" and a 150 foot length of 1/4" reinforced vinyl air line for $2. I never realized how handy it is to have air until I got it! Low CFM just means I have to take more breaks. Gerry :-)} London, Canada |
Air tools
On 2010-11-08, Michael Koblic wrote:
Air tools are a new thing to me. At this point all I own is a brad nailer which I have not used in anger. I have been looking at the general principles guiding air tool use and there are questions that I have not found satisfactory answer to: 1) Air tools are usually given specs including operating pressure (often 90 psi) and air flow (in CFM). If the available compressor is not rated for the given flow "the tool will not perform properly". How is this manifested? E.g. a grinder: Will it turn slower? Less torque? Both? Will it not turn at all? Will it keep turning till the operating pressure drops to some level and it stops, i.e is it an on-off thing? The air compressor has a regulator to maintain a constant output pressure as the pressure in the tank drops -- until the pressure in the tank gets close to the set pressure on the regulator, at which time the output pressure drops. If this set pressure is lower than the pressure at which the compressor motor turns back on, then you will maintain the output pressure full time -- unless you are using a tool which draws more air than the compressor can provide, in which case the output pressure starts to drop, and the speed and torque of your tool start to drop. At that point, you should pause while waiting for the compressor to re-fill the tank. If you are using short bursts of work from the tool, and the CFM draw from the tool is not too much greater than the pump's capability, you will not even see the problem -- simply the pump will turn on and off from time to time as you work. However -- beware of two things: 1) Some compressors are optimistically rated. (Though this is more common in the horsepower ratings.) So you may not see the CFM@pressure which the rating claims. 2) Some tools are also optimistically rated. In reality, they use more air than they claim to use. 2) Lowering the compressor operating pressure should increase the available flow. What does lowering the operating pressure do to the air-tool? Less power available from the tool. It is designed to work properly at a specific pressure. If you can live with it running slower, and having less torque, you can use it at a lower pressure. But normally it is a little more efficient to pause with the tool and let the compressor catch up. I am looking at pressure x flow as similar to current x voltage but I am not sure this analogy holds in this application. If the electrical analogy holds I cannot see the air tool "suck" more air because the pressure dropped, in fact I would intuitively assume *less* flow. It would be less flow. This is because you don't have an equivalent to "Back EMF" which is what allows an electric motor to draw more current at lower voltages. 3) In practical terms, if a tool requiring "average" 3 CFM is operated from a 2.7 CFM @90 psi will it just underperform all the time or will it require a shorter duty cycle (and when "on" it will run at full power)? A shorter duty cycle. It has no way of knowing that your compressor can't supply the full 3 CFM -- until the pressure starts to drop. So if you use it in bursts, you are fine. At this point I do not see much use for air tools in my shop but one never knows. Hah! I picked up an old Sears compressor at an estate sale (from before they started lying about horsepower) and picked up a tool or two. More got added (some from hamfests), and each time I see a tool which I don't have, I pick it up. Two sizes of impact wrench, ratchet wrench spun by the compressed air, 3/8" drill, screwdriver, special tool for Screw-Sticks (a stack of screws with hex heads but no slots, all turned from a single length of brass. The tool screws in the screw, pulls out a little so the torque is applied to the next head back, and the screw wrings off at the narrow neck between the head and the end of the next screw. Now if I could just find more screws for it -- but it was free anyway. Air hammer (I was thinking for driving rivets, but it has been a lifesaver in auto work when I had to remove four 7/16" rivets to repair part of the suspension.) The other tool which turned out to be a winner for that was the drill. And I just used it for drilling holes in studs when running new wiring for my lathe and air compressor, instead of plugging them into outlets the length of the shop away. It was a lot faster than the electric Milwaukee right-angle drill motor, and small enough to fit nicely between the studs, even when there was one closer than normal because of a door.) Another new tool which was used in the car work was a high speed disc grinder with about a 2-1/4" disc for cutting off hardened steel. Oh yes -- the air drill will stall before it twists your wrist off, unlike a 1/2" electric drill in the confined space under a car, which brings the back of your hand in violent contact with something sharp or otherwise uncomfortable. For a lot of these I had to pause to let the compressor catch up. That didn't keep them from being very useful. Oh yes, I also have a die grinder, which I haven't had much use for yet -- but it came at a good price from a hamfest. Oh yes -- avoid the "direct drive" compressors. They are *very* annoyingly noisy. Go for the belt driven ones which are oil wetted. (Not as good for spray painting, but much nicer for your ears. But when using the air hammer to chisel off the heads of the rivets, I had to have hearing protection under that car. :-) The belt drive ones start up and run from time to time -- but they don't make you jump out of your skin. :-) Good Luck, DoN. -- Remove oil spill source from e-mail Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
Air tools
On 9 Nov 2010 03:05:35 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote: Oh yes -- the air drill will stall before it twists your wrist off, unlike a 1/2" electric drill in the confined space under a car, which brings the back of your hand in violent contact with something sharp or otherwise uncomfortable. That depends on the drill and the pressure. I've been slapped pretty hard by an air drill. For a lot of these I had to pause to let the compressor catch up. That didn't keep them from being very useful. Oh yes, I also have a die grinder, which I haven't had much use for yet -- but it came at a good price from a hamfest. Oh yes -- avoid the "direct drive" compressors. They are *very* annoyingly noisy. Go for the belt driven ones which are oil wetted. (Not as good for spray painting, but much nicer for your ears. But when using the air hammer to chisel off the heads of the rivets, I had to have hearing protection under that car. :-) The belt drive ones start up and run from time to time -- but they don't make you jump out of your skin. :-) Good Luck, DoN. |
Air tools
"Larry Jaques" wrote in message ... On Mon, 8 Nov 2010 20:18:07 +0800, "Dennis" wrote: "Larry Jaques" wrote in message . .. On Mon, 8 Nov 2010 19:09:52 +0800, "Dennis" wrote: "Rich Grise" wrote in message ... Michael Koblic wrote: Air tools are a new thing to me. At this point all I own is a brad nailer which I have not used in anger. In anger? ??? On the foreheads of doorknocking evangelists? I can see it now..."Here's your !@#$%^& Watchtower magazine back!" and "Let me staple your bible to your head so you don't lose it." Ha ha ha - that's the one! It really annoys me the way the JW's bring the nice young women along with them..... That's precisely the time to think quickly and do some trolling. Y'see, you jump up, quickly strip bareass nekkid, then open the door completely naked with a a raging organ homing in on the young hottie. If you're lucky, she'll jump in the door, lock it, and never return to church. Preacher's daughters are the best for that. Smokin', n'est-ce pas? -- Happiness is not a station you arrive at, but a manner of traveling. -- Margaret Lee Runbeck Funny you say that, I've had VERY similar thoughts! |
Air tools
Steve B wrote:
"Dennis" wrote in message . au... "Rich Grise" wrote in message ... Michael Koblic wrote: Air tools are a new thing to me. At this point all I own is a brad nailer which I have not used in anger. In anger? ??? On the foreheads of doorknocking evangelists? Too bad the biggest morons of them all wear protective bike helmets. I wonder if that's for bike riding or brad gun protection ............. Steve Careful , you're about to get Mr. Young on your case ... I wonder if he's one of Brigham's descendents ? BTW , I claim license to bash Mormons , grew up as one , know the culture intimately , and don't have much use for 'em as a group . FWIW , there are some I can get along with , as long as they don't promote their lifestyle . Chris falls into that category . -- Snag Got Guns ? |
Air tools (and refrigeration compressors)
If you have a bit of skill. A compressor from a refrigerator or air
conditioner will also compress air. Generally slower than the shop compressors. So, you'd take a day or two to build up pressure. Use an old water heater for air expansion tank. Some refrigerator compressors won't start if the discharge side is unded pressure, so it takes some skill to make it all work. The advantage is that they are typically rather quiet. Like I say, if you have the time (slow discharge) the space (for a LARGE expansion tank) and the skill (to put in a check valve, start the compressor with no back pressure, change a couple valves and put the air into the expansion tank). Could work for you. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Michael Koblic" wrote in message ... If one counts an air gun as an "air tool" then yes, that is what I bought the small compressor for. It is 4 gallons, ungodly noisy, but I can fill the tank at the beginning of the session and then switch it off and still have enough air in the tank at the end. -- Michael Koblic, Campbell River, BC |
Air tools (and evangelists)
No worries. People have different opinions. Sometimes I'm amazed at
how so many different people, with different views, all think their own one is right. We know of no relation from me to to Brigham Young. Might be, but havn't found it. Most former-Mormons turn antagonistic after a while, I find. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Snag" wrote in message ... On the foreheads of doorknocking evangelists? Too bad the biggest morons of them all wear protective bike helmets. I wonder if that's for bike riding or brad gun protection ............. Steve Careful , you're about to get Mr. Young on your case ... I wonder if he's one of Brigham's descendents ? BTW , I claim license to bash Mormons , grew up as one , know the culture intimately , and don't have much use for 'em as a group . FWIW , there are some I can get along with , as long as they don't promote their lifestyle . Chris falls into that category . -- Snag Got Guns ? |
Air tools
"Snag" wrote in message ... Steve B wrote: "Dennis" wrote in message . au... "Rich Grise" wrote in message ... Michael Koblic wrote: Air tools are a new thing to me. At this point all I own is a brad nailer which I have not used in anger. In anger? ??? On the foreheads of doorknocking evangelists? Too bad the biggest morons of them all wear protective bike helmets. I wonder if that's for bike riding or brad gun protection ............. Steve Careful , you're about to get Mr. Young on your case ... I wonder if he's one of Brigham's descendents ? BTW , I claim license to bash Mormons , grew up as one , know the culture intimately , and don't have much use for 'em as a group . FWIW , there are some I can get along with , as long as they don't promote their lifestyle . Chris falls into that category . -- Snag Got Guns ? Greetings fellow apostate Son of Perdition! Steve |
Air tools (and evangelists)
Stormin Mormon wrote:
No worries. People have different opinions. Sometimes I'm amazed at how so many different people, with different views, all think their own one is right. We know of no relation from me to to Brigham Young. Might be, but havn't found it. Most former-Mormons turn antagonistic after a while, I find. -- Christopher A. Young Not particularly antagonistic , just don't want to hear it - from any religion . You have your beliefs and I have mine . That's what this country is all about , isn't it ? -- Snag Got Guns ? |
Air tools (and evangelists)
Where do you live? I'm in the USA. We have constitutional guarantees
of freedom of religion. And freedom of speech. We're free to worship, and also free to teach others what we believe. We also have the guarantee that the government shall not establish a religion (like England, and their church of England). The concept of "separation of church and state" was mentioned by some people, later, but is not found in the US constitution. I do not belive "separation of church and state" has any legal requirement. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Snag" wrote in message ... Not particularly antagonistic , just don't want to hear it - from any religion . You have your beliefs and I have mine . That's what this country is all about , isn't it ? -- Snag Got Guns ? |
Air tools
On Sun, 7 Nov 2010 22:27:43 -0800, "Michael Koblic"
wrote: Air tools are a new thing to me. At this point all I own is a brad nailer which I have not used in anger. I have been looking at the general principles guiding air tool use and there are questions that I have not found satisfactory answer to: 1) Air tools are usually given specs including operating pressure (often 90 psi) and air flow (in CFM). If the available compressor is not rated for the given flow "the tool will not perform properly". How is this manifested? E.g. a grinder: Will it turn slower? Less torque? Both? Will it not turn at all? Will it keep turning till the operating pressure drops to some level and it stops, i.e is it an on-off thing? The compressor will fill the tank to some pressure above the nominal 90 PSIG usually specified for air tools. When you operate the tool, a regulator limits delivery pressure to 90 PSIG. If the capacity of the compressor is greater than the consumption of the tool, then the compressor will cycle on and off, always maintaining the tank at well above 90 PSIG. Single-stage compressors typically switch on if tank pressure falls below about 105 to 110 PSIG and switch off at about 125 PSIG. If its delivery capacity is less, then the delivery pressure will be 90 PSIG until the tank pressure drops to slightly above that; then it will start to fall. The air tool will operate normally until that point and then start to slow down and/or lose power. How long this takes depends upon the size of the tank, and upon the difference between delivery rate and consumption rate. |
Air tools (and refrigeration compressors)
WTF, get a clue. Why waste your time making comments regarding procedures
which you are completely ignorant about? Water heater tanks are not safe for compressed air. Properly designed pressure vessels, in good condition, are safe for compressed air at common shop-use pressure levels. A proper pressure vessel would be air compressr receivers/tanks, propane or other compressed gas bottles, and various commercial/industrial tanks that are certified for compressed air pressures. U.S.A. manufactured tanks will be marked with working pressure and test pressure ratings. Generally, all domestic air compressor receivers are marked with an ASME pressure vessel tag. Fabricating an air compressor with leftover parts from various sources is likely to be very dangerous, particularly when proper safety devices are ommitted. -- WB .......... "Stormin Mormon" wrote in message ... If you have a bit of skill. A compressor from a refrigerator or air conditioner will also compress air. Generally slower than the shop compressors. So, you'd take a day or two to build up pressure. Use an old water heater for air expansion tank. Some refrigerator compressors won't start if the discharge side is unded pressure, so it takes some skill to make it all work. The advantage is that they are typically rather quiet. Like I say, if you have the time (slow discharge) the space (for a LARGE expansion tank) and the skill (to put in a check valve, start the compressor with no back pressure, change a couple valves and put the air into the expansion tank). Could work for you. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org . "Michael Koblic" wrote in message ... If one counts an air gun as an "air tool" then yes, that is what I bought the small compressor for. It is 4 gallons, ungodly noisy, but I can fill the tank at the beginning of the session and then switch it off and still have enough air in the tank at the end. -- Michael Koblic, Campbell River, BC |
Air tools (and refrigeration compressors)
On 2010-11-09, Wild_Bill wrote:
WTF, get a clue. Why waste your time making comments regarding procedures which you are completely ignorant about? Water heater tanks are not safe for compressed air. Yes. Maximum household water pressure is 85 PSI. Compressed air needs to be at higher pressure. So a water tank cannot be used for that reason alone, in addition to what Wild Bill said. i |
Air tools (and evangelists)
Stormin Mormon wrote:
Where do you live? I'm in the USA. We have constitutional guarantees of freedom of religion. And freedom of speech. We're free to worship, and also free to teach others what we believe. We also have the guarantee that the government shall not establish a religion (like England, and their church of England). The concept of "separation of church and state" was mentioned by some people, later, but is not found in the US constitution. I do not belive "separation of church and state" has any legal requirement. -- Christopher A. Young I'm in Memphis Tennessee ... moved here in 1982 from Brigham City Utah . You're free to preach to anyone you want to . I'm free to walk away and/or ignore you . -- Snag Got Guns ? |
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