The U.S. House of representatives just passed a financial reform
bill to at least reduce the likely hood and severity of future
financial contractions.

For text of bill [1279 pages!!] see
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...73ih.t xt.pdf

While I have not examined every page, it appears that the mega
banks are exempted from many of the more restrictive provisions,
and legitimate users of commodity hedging such as air lines
[fuel] and grain [ADM/Cargill] are exempted from
derivative/futures regulation without limit. FWIW -- I will be
writing my Senators urging a limit of 5%-10% of total gross
operating revenue at which point the companies become fully
subject to the regulation. The intent of this exemption was to
allow companies to stabilize their input prices, not engage in
speculation.

There seems to be very little actual teeth in the bill in the
form of jail time, fines, asset forfeiture, or revocation of
corporate charter. The only place I could find imprisonment
mentioned was page 1198 and that only for SIPC membership
representation.

Half a loaf is better than none, but still no Glass-Steagall.


Unka George (George McDuffee)
...............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

On Sat, 12 Dec 2009 02:37:55 -0600, F. George McDuffee
wrote:
snip
There seems to be very little actual teeth in the bill in the
form of jail time, fines, asset forfeiture, or revocation of
corporate charter. The only place I could find imprisonment
mentioned was page 1198 and that only for SIPC membership
representation.
snip
=======
I did locate a penalties section. Part 2 -- Enforcement and
Remedies. Pages 1105-1154

With the possible exception of page 1198, all penalties are civil
[and optional], and no minimum penalty is specified. Also the
permissive word "may," not the prescriptive "shall" is used when
authorization to share information about possible criminal
wrongdoing with the enforcement agencies such as the U.S.
Attorneys Office, FBI and IRS is discovered.

Statement about "half a loaf is better than none" should be
revised to "a slice of bread is better than none." Also there
appears to be considerable "preemption" of state laws that may
prevent any state AG action in this area.

This appears to be an effort "to show the folks back home that we
did something (without rocking the boat)" rather than any
substantive regulatory change.


Unka George (George McDuffee)
...............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

On Sat, 12 Dec 2009 02:37:55 -0600, F. George McDuffee
wrote:
snip
There seems to be very little actual teeth in the bill in the
form of jail time, fines, asset forfeiture, or revocation of
corporate charter. The only place I could find imprisonment
mentioned was page 1198 and that only for SIPC membership
representation.
snip
=======
I did locate a penalties section. Part 2 -- Enforcement and
Remedies. Pages 1105-1154

With the possible exception of page 1198, all penalties are civil
[and optional], and no minimum penalty is specified. Also the
permissive word "may," not the prescriptive "shall" is used when
authorization to share information about possible criminal
wrongdoing with the enforcement agencies such as the U.S.
Attorneys Office, FBI and IRS is discovered.

Statement about "half a loaf is better than none" should be
revised to "a slice of bread is better than none." Also there
appears to be considerable "preemption" of state laws that may
prevent any state AG action in this area.

This appears to be an effort "to show the folks back home that we
did something (without rocking the boat)" rather than any
substantive regulatory change.


Unka George (George McDuffee)
...............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

F. George McDuffee wrote:

There seems to be very little actual teeth in the bill in the
form of jail time, fines, asset forfeiture, or revocation of
corporate charter. The only place I could find imprisonment
mentioned was page 1198 and that only for SIPC membership
representation.

Half a loaf is better than none, but still no Glass-Steagall.


Unka George (George McDuffee)
..............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

It just goes to show you how bad off we are. When we had the crash of
1929 and the following depression the Democrats running the country
weren't kidding around. They put in regulations that had teeth in them
and really put the financial sector under governmental control and
scrutiny. Not these days. The country is so bound to the free market
Utopian ideology that you can't even get the Democrats to do what is
necessary to keep the financial sector properly regulated let alone the
republicans.

As I said in another post, the republican leadership is meeting with 100
lobbyists to try to find ways to prevent any new regulation of finance.
You have the anti regulation republicans and the Democrats who are tepid
on regulation. So you see what that gets us. New regulation of the
industry, but so it's so weak it doesn't mean anything. Chalk up another
win for the corporations. Looks like it's a good week for them. First
the financial industry is able to water down regulation so much it is
non existent and the health insurance industry destroys the government
run health care reform. No changes, status quo protected once again.
What a country!

Hawke

On Sat, 12 Dec 2009 11:35:27 -0800, Hawke
wrote:
snip
No changes, status quo protected once again.
snip
This can be good or bad depending where you are going.

If things are going well and/or improving then the status quo is
good. Unfortunately, the trend lines for both health care and
financial/fiscal well being, using several metrics, are in
serious decline.

The folk wisdom "desperate situations demand desperate remedies"
appears to be largely correct, but some parsing (and a little
deconstruction) indicates this is more of a warning to not allow
desperate situations to develop than a justification/rationale
for desperate remedies. The cure should not be worse than the
disease, and the "prime directive" for the physician should
remain "First, I will do no harm."


Unka George (George McDuffee)
...............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

On Sat, 12 Dec 2009 11:35:27 -0800, Hawke
wrote:

F. George McDuffee wrote:

There seems to be very little actual teeth in the bill in the
form of jail time, fines, asset forfeiture, or revocation of
corporate charter. The only place I could find imprisonment
mentioned was page 1198 and that only for SIPC membership
representation.

Half a loaf is better than none, but still no Glass-Steagall.


Unka George (George McDuffee)
..............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

It just goes to show you how bad off we are. When we had the crash of
1929 and the following depression the Democrats running the country
weren't kidding around. They put in regulations that had teeth in them
and really put the financial sector under governmental control and
scrutiny. Not these days. The country is so bound to the free market
Utopian ideology that you can't even get the Democrats to do what is
necessary to keep the financial sector properly regulated let alone the
republicans.

As I said in another post, the republican leadership is meeting with 100
lobbyists to try to find ways to prevent any new regulation of finance.
You have the anti regulation republicans and the Democrats who are tepid
on regulation. So you see what that gets us. New regulation of the
industry, but so it's so weak it doesn't mean anything. Chalk up another
win for the corporations. Looks like it's a good week for them. First
the financial industry is able to water down regulation so much it is
non existent and the health insurance industry destroys the government
run health care reform. No changes, status quo protected once again.
What a country!

Hawke
==============
This just showed up on the WSJ site detailing how Goldman-Sachs
played the financial system like a Moog Synthesizer in the run-up
to the credit spasm, and hauled taxpayer dollars away from AIG in
semi-trailers.
see
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...p_mostpop_read

An article on Bloomberg details how G/S continues to "game the
system" using taxpayer funding with comments by Paul Volker.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...xuVk7g3U&pos=1
snip
Dec. 12 (Bloomberg) -- Goldman Sachs Group Inc., which took $10
billion in U.S. bailout funds last year, shouldn’t get taxpayer
support if the firm focuses on trading over banking, according to
former Federal Reserve Chairman Paul Volcker.

The “safety net” provided by the U.S. government “should not be
extended beyond the core commercial-banking business,” Volcker,
82, said in an interview yesterday at Deutsche Bank AG’s Berlin
office, where he was attending a conference. “They can do trading
and do anything they want, but then they shouldn’t have access to
the safety net.”
snip

Who said bipartisanship is dead?


Unka George (George McDuffee)
...............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

F. George McDuffee wrote:
==============
This just showed up on the WSJ site detailing how Goldman-Sachs
played the financial system like a Moog Synthesizer in the run-up
to the credit spasm, and hauled taxpayer dollars away from AIG in
semi-trailers.
see
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...p_mostpop_read

An article on Bloomberg details how G/S continues to "game the
system" using taxpayer funding with comments by Paul Volker.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...xuVk7g3U&pos=1
snip
Dec. 12 (Bloomberg) -- Goldman Sachs Group Inc., which took $10
billion in U.S. bailout funds last year, shouldn’t get taxpayer
support if the firm focuses on trading over banking, according to
former Federal Reserve Chairman Paul Volcker.

The “safety net” provided by the U.S. government “should not be
extended beyond the core commercial-banking business,” Volcker,
82, said in an interview yesterday at Deutsche Bank AG’s Berlin
office, where he was attending a conference. “They can do trading
and do anything they want, but then they shouldn’t have access to
the safety net.”
snip

Who said bipartisanship is dead?

There is a book out by Nomi Prins called "It takes a Pillage" in which
she talks about the problems in the financial business that caused the
near collapse of our financial system. She knows what she is talking
about. She is a former Goldman Sachs manager. I saw her interviewed on
Book TV and she said that the banks that take deposits and make loans
get the FDIC and the rest of the government guarantees. The ones that
are gambling/speculating, take your pick, have to be on their own, get
no guarantees, and risk their own money. It's pretty simple really.
Glass-Steegal had it right. Financial companies should only get bailout
protection if they are real banks and if they are trading for profit
they should not. That's how it was and that is what the big shots wanted
changed and they got it when the republicans were in charge. A perfect
example of getting what they dreamed of but it not being what they
thought it was going to be.

Hawke

"Hawke" wrote in message
...
F. George McDuffee wrote:
==============
This just showed up on the WSJ site detailing how Goldman-Sachs
played the financial system like a Moog Synthesizer in the run-up
to the credit spasm, and hauled taxpayer dollars away from AIG in
semi-trailers. see
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...p_mostpop_read

An article on Bloomberg details how G/S continues to "game the
system" using taxpayer funding with comments by Paul Volker.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...xuVk7g3U&pos=1
snip
Dec. 12 (Bloomberg) -- Goldman Sachs Group Inc., which took $10
billion in U.S. bailout funds last year, shouldn’t get taxpayer
support if the firm focuses on trading over banking, according to
former Federal Reserve Chairman Paul Volcker.

The “safety net” provided by the U.S. government “should not be
extended beyond the core commercial-banking business,” Volcker,
82, said in an interview yesterday at Deutsche Bank AG’s Berlin
office, where he was attending a conference. “They can do trading
and do anything they want, but then they shouldn’t have access to
the safety net.” snip

Who said bipartisanship is dead?

There is a book out by Nomi Prins called "It takes a Pillage" in which she
talks about the problems in the financial business that caused the near
collapse of our financial system. She knows what she is talking about. She
is a former Goldman Sachs manager. I saw her interviewed on Book TV and
she said that the banks that take deposits and make loans get the FDIC and
the rest of the government guarantees. The ones that are
gambling/speculating, take your pick, have to be on their own, get no
guarantees, and risk their own money. It's pretty simple really.
Glass-Steegal had it right. Financial companies should only get bailout
protection if they are real banks and if they are trading for profit they
should not. That's how it was and that is what the big shots wanted
changed and they got it when the republicans were in charge. A perfect
example of getting what they dreamed of but it not being what they thought
it was going to be.

Hawke

Its called "OPM" ( other peoples money) the practice places the risk
on others, AKA investors, taxpayers etc. the payers take the profits.
In the event of a meltdown bailouts are ensured by the government because
the players are to big to fail and the players still win big. Justice has
been
bought and paid for in advance and there will be no wrong doing on the
part of the players. Win Win for the players no matter what happens.
Replace the Regulators with Vigilance Committees it worked in the past.

IMHO if thier to big to fail they are to dangerous to exist, what ever
hapend to
monopoly laws ? anyone remember REA express ?

Best Regards
Tom.

On Sat, 12 Dec 2009 17:39:49 -0800, Hawke
wrote:
snip
A perfect
example of getting what they dreamed of but it not being what they
thought it was going to be.
snip
=======
Do you feel lucky punk? Go ahead -- make my day!!!
Dirty Harry

I like the new word "econopocalypse," right up there with
bankster and brokster.

http://www.boingboing.net/2009/12/12...ing+Boi ng%29
Maybe Goldman's bankers are getting guns after all (and even if
they aren't, man, this shadowy carry-permits-for-the-rich thing
is scary) - UPDATED
Perhaps you've followed the great armed Goldman-Sachs Banker
story here, but if not, a quick recap: first, a Bloomberg
columnist wrote an unsourced report alleging that Goldman Sachs
bankers in New York were arming up, getting permits to carry
handguns in the event of a peasant uprising fuelled by outrage
over their government-subsidized profiteering on the
econopocalypse's human misery. The story had legs, and got widely
reported.

Then, a Wall Street Journal reporter filed an article in which
New York law enforcement repudiated the armed Goldman Sachs
story, saying that there was no record of Goldman Sachs bankers
getting NYC carry-permits. On this basis, the WSJ called the
story a myth.

Now, a third salvo: an anonymous tipster writes in with word of a
secretive, undocumented parallel handgun permitting system
available to the wealthy. Essentially, a would-be gunslinger just
pays a small-town sheriff somewhere in the USA to make him a
"reserve" or "honorary" officer. Now he is entitled to carry all
through the USA, without being subject to normal regulations,
even as they pertain to ammo, or even carrying guns onto
commercial, scheduled airplanes.

snip

'In 2004, President Bush signed into Federal LAW, the Law
Enforcement Officers Safety Act, formerly known as HR 218. LEOSA
does empower full time sworn law enforcement officers to carry in
all 50 states. This law extends to retired law enforcement
officers provided certain provisos are met (i.e. regular
qualification).

snip


Unka George (George McDuffee)
...............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

On Sat, 12 Dec 2009 19:08:20 -0800, "azotic"
wrote:
snip
IMHO if thier to big to fail they are to dangerous to exist, what ever
hapend to
monopoly laws ? anyone remember REA express ?
snip
You may enjoy this interview with Paul Volcker [FRB Chairman
under Reagan]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...666757,00.html
snip
SPIEGEL: You have been clear about your ideas. Do you really
believe we have to break up the big banks in order to create a
more sustainable financial system?

Volcker: Well, breaking them up is difficult. I would prefer to
say, let's just slice them up. I don't want them to get heavily
involved in capital market activities so my view is: Hedge funds,
no. Equity funds, no. Proprietary trading, no. Trading in
commodities, no. And that in itself would reduce the size of the
big banks. So you get some reduction in size. Equally important,
you make them more manageable and easier to deal with if they do
get in trouble.
snip

Unka George (George McDuffee)
...............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

F. George McDuffee wrote:
On Sat, 12 Dec 2009 19:08:20 -0800, "azotic"
wrote:
snip
IMHO if thier to big to fail they are to dangerous to exist, what
ever hapend to
monopoly laws ? anyone remember REA express ?
snip
You may enjoy this interview with Paul Volcker [FRB Chairman
under Reagan]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...666757,00.html
snip
SPIEGEL: You have been clear about your ideas. Do you really
believe we have to break up the big banks in order to create a
more sustainable financial system?

Volcker: Well, breaking them up is difficult. I would prefer to
say, let's just slice them up. I don't want them to get heavily
involved in capital market activities so my view is: Hedge funds,
no. Equity funds, no. Proprietary trading, no. Trading in
commodities, no. And that in itself would reduce the size of the
big banks. So you get some reduction in size. Equally important,
you make them more manageable and easier to deal with if they do
get in trouble.
snip

There is no shortage in the "knowing what to do" department George.
What is lacking is the political will to do it.
Big money and partisan politics have, so far, trumped meaningful reform.
As you well understand, money isn't partisan, knows no national boundaries,
and has no allegiance to anything beyond the holder's intentions.

One of the unintended consequences, but something that was widely remarked
on at the time, of all of this bail out malarkey is moral hazard. "Moral
Hazard", now there is a polite and disingenuous way to say get out of jail
and off the hook free if ever I've heard one.
Uncle Buddy is still the biggest swingin' dick on any block in the world but
you wouldn't know it from the way our Congress kowtows to the insurance,
banking, and financial services industries.

It's disgraceful.

--
John R. Carroll

On Sun, 13 Dec 2009 13:17:02 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:
snip
There is no shortage in the "knowing what to do" department George.
What is lacking is the political will to do it.
snip
As per RCM and AMC there are two surefire "cures."

(1) Elect a Republican president and Republican controlled
Congress, with 61+ majority in the Senate.

(2) Elect a Democrat President and a Democrat controlled
Congress, with 61+ majority in the Senate.

We are living in "interesting times."

FWIW -- While there appears to be adequate "knowing what to do"
at the symptom level, there appears to be a definite lack of
knowledge at the causal and implementation level, as well as a
shortage of political will and individual gumption for
implementation.

For example, even such "no brainers" as requiring competitive
bids, with a minimum of 3 bidders, for bonds issued by the
states, municipalities and authorities [including the "new "Build
America" bonds], if these are to be Federal income tax exempt on
their interest payments, can't be implemented.


Unka George (George McDuffee)
...............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

On Sun, 13 Dec 2009 13:17:02 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:
snip
Uncle Buddy is still the biggest swingin' dick on any block in the world but
you wouldn't know it from the way our Congress kowtows to the insurance,
banking, and financial services industries.

It's disgraceful.

--
John R. Carroll
=======
If you find this somewhat off-topic dialog interesting, the
following video clips from "The Real News" should also be of
interest. You will need a high speed internet connection as sizes
are in the 30-30 MB range/ c. 10 to 12 minutes. [You won't see
these on Faux News.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-OjK...=youtube_gdata
Why no bank regulation with teeth?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enbj5...=youtube_gdata
Giant holes in new banking rules

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5G9H...om=PL&index=32
Tax havens & currency speculation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsnLs...aynext_from=PL
Close tax havens, pay for health care Pt.2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bay-9...=youtube_gdata
Tax havens & currency speculation Pt.3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLrHQ...=youtube_gdata
Tax havens & currency speculation Pt.4


Unka George (George McDuffee)
...............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

"F. George McDuffee" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 13 Dec 2009 13:17:02 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:
snip
Uncle Buddy is still the biggest swingin' dick on any block in the world
but
you wouldn't know it from the way our Congress kowtows to the insurance,
banking, and financial services industries.

It's disgraceful.

--
John R. Carroll
=======
If you find this somewhat off-topic dialog interesting, the
following video clips from "The Real News" should also be of
interest. You will need a high speed internet connection as sizes
are in the 30-30 MB range/ c. 10 to 12 minutes. [You won't see
these on Faux News.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-OjK...=youtube_gdata
Why no bank regulation with teeth?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enbj5...=youtube_gdata
Giant holes in new banking rules

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5G9H...om=PL&index=32
Tax havens & currency speculation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsnLs...aynext_from=PL
Close tax havens, pay for health care Pt.2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bay-9...=youtube_gdata
Tax havens & currency speculation Pt.3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLrHQ...=youtube_gdata
Tax havens & currency speculation Pt.4


Unka George (George McDuffee)

Speaking of tax havens i have read that there is an increase in US citizens
resigning thier
citizenship and moving to low tax countries. On todays news there was a
blurb that in
britan the government wants to limit saleries and bonuses on finnancial
execs. The bankers
basicly gave parliment the finger say they would simply move to friendlier
nations where
they are welcome.......

Best Regards
Tom.

I have zero confidence that passing more laws will help the
economy in any form.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"F. George McDuffee"
wrote in message
...
The U.S. House of representatives just passed a financial
reform
bill to at least reduce the likely hood and severity of
future
financial contractions.

For text of bill [1279 pages!!] see
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...73ih.t xt.pdf

While I have not examined every page, it appears that the
mega
banks are exempted from many of the more restrictive
provisions,
and legitimate users of commodity hedging such as air lines
[fuel] and grain [ADM/Cargill] are exempted from
derivative/futures regulation without limit. FWIW -- I will
be
writing my Senators urging a limit of 5%-10% of total gross
operating revenue at which point the companies become fully
subject to the regulation. The intent of this exemption was
to
allow companies to stabilize their input prices, not engage
in
speculation.

There seems to be very little actual teeth in the bill in
the
form of jail time, fines, asset forfeiture, or revocation of
corporate charter. The only place I could find imprisonment
mentioned was page 1198 and that only for SIPC membership
representation.

Half a loaf is better than none, but still no
Glass-Steagall.


Unka George (George McDuffee)
...............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

On Sun, 13 Dec 2009 19:08:01 -0800, "azotic"
wrote:
snip
The bankers
basicly gave parliment the finger say they would simply move to friendlier
nations where
they are welcome.......

Best Regards
Tom.
========
After the screw job the bankers gave the people and government of
the UK, the proper response would appear to be "don't let the
door hit you in the ass on the way out." The bankers are lucky
they are not being deported after asset forfeiture. Where are
they going to go? Iceland? Ireland?




Unka George (George McDuffee)
...............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
I have zero confidence that passing more laws will help the
economy in any form.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.


"F. George McDuffee"
wrote in message
...
The U.S. House of representatives just passed a financial
reform
bill to at least reduce the likely hood and severity of
future
financial contractions.

For text of bill [1279 pages!!] see
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...73ih.t xt.pdf

While I have not examined every page, it appears that the
mega
banks are exempted from many of the more restrictive
provisions,
and legitimate users of commodity hedging such as air lines
[fuel] and grain [ADM/Cargill] are exempted from
derivative/futures regulation without limit. FWIW -- I will
be
writing my Senators urging a limit of 5%-10% of total gross
operating revenue at which point the companies become fully
subject to the regulation. The intent of this exemption was
to
allow companies to stabilize their input prices, not engage
in
speculation.

There seems to be very little actual teeth in the bill in
the
form of jail time, fines, asset forfeiture, or revocation of
corporate charter. The only place I could find imprisonment
mentioned was page 1198 and that only for SIPC membership
representation.

Half a loaf is better than none, but still no
Glass-Steagall.


Unka George (George McDuffee)


A good read from that bastion of the Right Wing. . . Rolling Stone.
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...as_big_sellout

F. George McDuffee wrote:
On Sun, 13 Dec 2009 19:08:01 -0800, "azotic"
wrote:
snip
The bankers
basicly gave parliment the finger say they would simply move to friendlier
nations where
they are welcome.......

Best Regards
Tom.
========
After the screw job the bankers gave the people and government of
the UK, the proper response would appear to be "don't let the
door hit you in the ass on the way out." The bankers are lucky
they are not being deported after asset forfeiture. Where are
they going to go? Iceland? Ireland?


That's right, and how many times have you heard that, I'll move to
another country. Sounds good. Not so easy for most people even if they
have money. Want to move to a country where you don't speak the language
and aren't part of the culture there? Not me. I think it's time to get
tough on these people. How would they like to spend some time in prison.
How would they like to have their money confiscated? How would they like
to hang on the end of a rope? That's what they would face in China if
they didn't do what the government said. These people are so privileged
they think they can't be held to account. They can. The question is will
they. But as long as we have so much of the nation's wealth in so few
hands the few will have too much influence on the government. No wonder
why the government is acting in the interests of the few and not the
many. They're being paid to. Until we stop that nothing is going to
improve. There is a sequence in which things need to be done. First the
money has to be taken away from those who have an undue influence on the
government. Then we have to take the money out of the election process.
After those two changes are made things will get a lot better. We
complain about corruption in other countries. We need to address ours
before we point fingers at others.

Hawke

On Sun, 13 Dec 2009 20:51:51 -0800, "Bill McKee"
wrote:
huge snip
A good read from that bastion of the Right Wing. . . Rolling Stone.
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...as_big_sellout
========
If you liked the Real News clips and the Rolling Stone article,
you should like
http://www.freep.com/article/2009121.../The-Banksters

Lots of animations so have a high speed internet connection.

The knives are getting sharper [and longer]...


Unka George (George McDuffee)
...............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

On Dec 14, 6:09*am, Hawke wrote:

That's right, and how many times have you heard that, I'll move to
another country. Sounds good. Not so easy for most people even if they
have money.
Hawke

There are lots of countries. You do not have to pick a third world
country.

I recently moved and while it was not for tax purposes, I did rule out
some states because of their tax policies. For example I moved from
Washington State , which has one of the highest state estate taxes.
The state I moved to has no estate tax except what may be collected in
lieu of federal estate tax.

In 2005, Washington enacted a separate tax with a somewhat different
rate structure that applies to estates that exceed $2 million after
the state's original decoupling was nullified in court.

http://retirementliving.com/RLtaxes.html

Dan

"F. George McDuffee" wrote:

After the screw job the bankers gave the people and government of
the UK, the proper response would appear to be "don't let the
door hit you in the ass on the way out." The bankers are lucky
they are not being deported after asset forfeiture. Where are
they going to go? Iceland? Ireland?


Antarctica?


--
Offworld checks no longer accepted!

On Sun, 13 Dec 2009 22:51:13 -0600, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

On Sun, 13 Dec 2009 19:08:01 -0800, "azotic"
wrote:
snip
The bankers
basicly gave parliment the finger say they would simply move to friendlier
nations where
they are welcome.......

Best Regards
Tom.
========
After the screw job the bankers gave the people and government of
the UK, the proper response would appear to be "don't let the
door hit you in the ass on the way out." The bankers are lucky
they are not being deported after asset forfeiture. Where are
they going to go? Iceland? Ireland?
==============
By what is increasingly apparent as outright fraud, the bankers
bankrupted the entire country of Iceland. Banking incompetency
has driven Ireland into an extreme austerity regime. Spain
teeters on the brink [c. 20% official unemployment], Greece has
one foot in the [economic/political] grave. Bankers nearly
bankrupted the UK, which is now in danger of losing its AAA
credit rating. The bankers have worn out their welcome in the
countries of Europe.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=awNIE35abSFY
"London Exodus to Geneva Runs Into Housing, School Shortages
By Dylan Griffiths, Warren Giles and Carolyn Bandel
Dec. 21 (Bloomberg) -- Geneva, touted as a haven for London
bankers facing heavier U.K. taxes, may lure fewer than predicted
thanks to a housing shortage, crowded schools and a 44 percent
income-tax rate.

Barclays Plc President Robert Diamond this month joined a chorus
of financial leaders in arguing that the U.K.’s 50 percent tax on
bonuses would drive bankers away from London. The Swiss Private
Bankers Association said the “arbitrary” tax will boost the
allure of Geneva, whose bankers oversee about 10 percent of the
world’s foreign-held private wealth.

“It’s a joke, it’s lobbying,” said Tim Dawson, an analyst at
Geneva-based brokerage Helvea AG. “People are dreaming if they
think the London investment banking world is going to move. There
is more office space in Canary Wharf than in the whole of
Switzerland,” he said, referring to London’s second financial
district.
snip

Unka George (George McDuffee)
...............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).