I'll ask my _second_ question _first_, so you can think about it while
you read my first question: What's a good newsgroup to post this sort of
question? I hate fora, so if there's an active newsgroup that'd be
vastly preferred.

My _first_ question is: are all clutch master cylinders created equal?

I'm putting a 2.8L V-6 into a Vega (to be followed by a 3.4L V-6 from GM
Performance Parts, if they survive the bankruptcy). I'm doing this
instead of a small block V-8 because I'm crazy, because the 2.8 block
lets be get at the spark plugs without jacking the motor up, and because
it'll help retain a halfway decent balance fore and aft (I hope).

Because I'm crazy I'm retaining the stick shift of the original, so I
need a clutch linkage. The transmission that fits well is from an '87
Camero (with 2.8L V-6), but it wants a hydraulic clutch instead of the
cable clutch which came on the Vega and the S-10 that donated the engine.

For a variety of reasons (mostly having to do with the advisability of
welding on unknown alloy cast aluminum) I don't want to modify the Camero
bellhousing. The S-10 bellhousing won't fit.

So I'm planning on finding the correct Camero clutch slave cylinder parts
that'll just bolt onto the bellhousing, but that leaves me with needing
to get the master cylinder mounted onto the firewall. I already know
it'll be a bitch; I'm planning on getting all of the Camero parts I can
(both pushrods, both cylinders, even bolts and tubing if I can). But if
the Camero master cylinder just won't fit, how much leeway do I have in
finding something that will? Do I get just any old thing? Is there an
interchange book that's accessible? Are different master cylinders with
different bores readily available, and how much can I compensate for
differing pedal-to-pushrod mechanical advantages by changing the master
cylinder bore? Are there any other differences I need to know (surely
there are some valving issues -- anything else?).

TIA.

--
www.wescottdesign.com

The Camaro unit is supposedly the "hot setup" for street rods because it
is so compact, but Wilwood also offers master & slave cylinders:
http://www.wilwood.com/Products/006-...SBMC/index.asp


"Tim Wescott" wrote in message
...
I'll ask my _second_ question _first_, so you can think about it while
you read my first question: What's a good newsgroup to post this sort of
question? I hate fora, so if there's an active newsgroup that'd be
vastly preferred.

My _first_ question is: are all clutch master cylinders created equal?

I'm putting a 2.8L V-6 into a Vega (to be followed by a 3.4L V-6 from GM
Performance Parts, if they survive the bankruptcy). I'm doing this
instead of a small block V-8 because I'm crazy, because the 2.8 block
lets be get at the spark plugs without jacking the motor up, and because
it'll help retain a halfway decent balance fore and aft (I hope).

Because I'm crazy I'm retaining the stick shift of the original, so I
need a clutch linkage. The transmission that fits well is from an '87
Camero (with 2.8L V-6), but it wants a hydraulic clutch instead of the
cable clutch which came on the Vega and the S-10 that donated the engine.

For a variety of reasons (mostly having to do with the advisability of
welding on unknown alloy cast aluminum) I don't want to modify the Camero
bellhousing. The S-10 bellhousing won't fit.

So I'm planning on finding the correct Camero clutch slave cylinder parts
that'll just bolt onto the bellhousing, but that leaves me with needing
to get the master cylinder mounted onto the firewall. I already know
it'll be a bitch; I'm planning on getting all of the Camero parts I can
(both pushrods, both cylinders, even bolts and tubing if I can). But if
the Camero master cylinder just won't fit, how much leeway do I have in
finding something that will? Do I get just any old thing? Is there an
interchange book that's accessible? Are different master cylinders with
different bores readily available, and how much can I compensate for
differing pedal-to-pushrod mechanical advantages by changing the master
cylinder bore? Are there any other differences I need to know (surely
there are some valving issues -- anything else?).

TIA.

--
www.wescottdesign.com

Tim Wescott wrote:
I'll ask my _second_ question _first_, so you can think about it while
you read my first question: What's a good newsgroup to post this sort of
question? I hate fora, so if there's an active newsgroup that'd be
vastly preferred.

My _first_ question is: are all clutch master cylinders created equal?

I'm putting a 2.8L V-6 into a Vega (to be followed by a 3.4L V-6 from GM
Performance Parts, if they survive the bankruptcy). I'm doing this
instead of a small block V-8 because I'm crazy, because the 2.8 block
lets be get at the spark plugs without jacking the motor up, and because
it'll help retain a halfway decent balance fore and aft (I hope).

Because I'm crazy I'm retaining the stick shift of the original, so I
need a clutch linkage. The transmission that fits well is from an '87
Camero (with 2.8L V-6), but it wants a hydraulic clutch instead of the
cable clutch which came on the Vega and the S-10 that donated the engine.

For a variety of reasons (mostly having to do with the advisability of
welding on unknown alloy cast aluminum) I don't want to modify the Camero
bellhousing. The S-10 bellhousing won't fit.

So I'm planning on finding the correct Camero clutch slave cylinder parts
that'll just bolt onto the bellhousing, but that leaves me with needing
to get the master cylinder mounted onto the firewall. I already know
it'll be a bitch; I'm planning on getting all of the Camero parts I can
(both pushrods, both cylinders, even bolts and tubing if I can). But if
the Camero master cylinder just won't fit, how much leeway do I have in
finding something that will? Do I get just any old thing? Is there an
interchange book that's accessible? Are different master cylinders with
different bores readily available, and how much can I compensate for
differing pedal-to-pushrod mechanical advantages by changing the master
cylinder bore? Are there any other differences I need to know (surely
there are some valving issues -- anything else?).

TIA.


The Camaro set-up should fit without much work. I used the set-up from
an S-Series on the 4.3 in a Vega I had a few years ago. Plenty of room.

--
Steve W.

On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 14:16:24 -0400, Steve W. wrote:

Tim Wescott wrote:
I'll ask my _second_ question _first_, so you can think about it while
you read my first question: What's a good newsgroup to post this sort
of question? I hate fora, so if there's an active newsgroup that'd be
vastly preferred.

My _first_ question is: are all clutch master cylinders created equal?

I'm putting a 2.8L V-6 into a Vega (to be followed by a 3.4L V-6 from
GM Performance Parts, if they survive the bankruptcy). I'm doing this
instead of a small block V-8 because I'm crazy, because the 2.8 block
lets be get at the spark plugs without jacking the motor up, and
because it'll help retain a halfway decent balance fore and aft (I
hope).

Because I'm crazy I'm retaining the stick shift of the original, so I
need a clutch linkage. The transmission that fits well is from an '87
Camero (with 2.8L V-6), but it wants a hydraulic clutch instead of the
cable clutch which came on the Vega and the S-10 that donated the
engine.

For a variety of reasons (mostly having to do with the advisability of
welding on unknown alloy cast aluminum) I don't want to modify the
Camero bellhousing. The S-10 bellhousing won't fit.

So I'm planning on finding the correct Camero clutch slave cylinder
parts that'll just bolt onto the bellhousing, but that leaves me with
needing to get the master cylinder mounted onto the firewall. I
already know it'll be a bitch; I'm planning on getting all of the
Camero parts I can (both pushrods, both cylinders, even bolts and
tubing if I can). But if the Camero master cylinder just won't fit,
how much leeway do I have in finding something that will? Do I get
just any old thing? Is there an interchange book that's accessible?
Are different master cylinders with different bores readily available,
and how much can I compensate for differing pedal-to-pushrod mechanical
advantages by changing the master cylinder bore? Are there any other
differences I need to know (surely there are some valving issues --
anything else?).

TIA.


The Camaro set-up should fit without much work. I used the set-up from
an S-Series on the 4.3 in a Vega I had a few years ago. Plenty of room.

Do you have a picture or ten? One thing I didn't mention is that it
looks like the push rod from the pedal needs to go right through the fuse
panel.

Or did you just move/replace the fuses as a matter of course?

--
www.wescottdesign.com

Tim Wescott wrote:
On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 14:16:24 -0400, Steve W. wrote:

Tim Wescott wrote:
I'll ask my _second_ question _first_, so you can think about it while
you read my first question: What's a good newsgroup to post this sort
of question? I hate fora, so if there's an active newsgroup that'd be
vastly preferred.

My _first_ question is: are all clutch master cylinders created equal?

I'm putting a 2.8L V-6 into a Vega (to be followed by a 3.4L V-6 from
GM Performance Parts, if they survive the bankruptcy). I'm doing this
instead of a small block V-8 because I'm crazy, because the 2.8 block
lets be get at the spark plugs without jacking the motor up, and
because it'll help retain a halfway decent balance fore and aft (I
hope).

Because I'm crazy I'm retaining the stick shift of the original, so I
need a clutch linkage. The transmission that fits well is from an '87
Camero (with 2.8L V-6), but it wants a hydraulic clutch instead of the
cable clutch which came on the Vega and the S-10 that donated the
engine.

For a variety of reasons (mostly having to do with the advisability of
welding on unknown alloy cast aluminum) I don't want to modify the
Camero bellhousing. The S-10 bellhousing won't fit.

So I'm planning on finding the correct Camero clutch slave cylinder
parts that'll just bolt onto the bellhousing, but that leaves me with
needing to get the master cylinder mounted onto the firewall. I
already know it'll be a bitch; I'm planning on getting all of the
Camero parts I can (both pushrods, both cylinders, even bolts and
tubing if I can). But if the Camero master cylinder just won't fit,
how much leeway do I have in finding something that will? Do I get
just any old thing? Is there an interchange book that's accessible?
Are different master cylinders with different bores readily available,
and how much can I compensate for differing pedal-to-pushrod mechanical
advantages by changing the master cylinder bore? Are there any other
differences I need to know (surely there are some valving issues --
anything else?).

TIA.


The Camaro set-up should fit without much work. I used the set-up from
an S-Series on the 4.3 in a Vega I had a few years ago. Plenty of room.

Do you have a picture or ten? One thing I didn't mention is that it
looks like the push rod from the pedal needs to go right through the fuse
panel.

Or did you just move/replace the fuses as a matter of course?


Wasn't hard. Just made a simple plate out of 1/8". Welded it in place
and used that plate to mount the clutch master. I did alter the push rod
length so that the mounting flange was inside the firewall and remote
mounted the reservoir. I have also seen one mounted out in the air duct,
that one had a long bell crank shaft to reach it.

Moved the fuse box on mine because I built my own wiring harness anyway.
Used a painless box and universal kit.

The last built rig I had went down the road a few weeks ago. That was an
Olds Starfire GT (Monza clone) that I stuck a well tuned 3.8 turbo in.
That car had a 5 speed behind it and could really stick to the road.

Current project beast is a 70 Nova. It will end up with a perimeter
frame, 'vette rear suspension, tubular A arm front suspension (current
plan is coil overs but may use torsion bars instead)
Current power plant idea is an injected big block. Might make it a green
mobile and burn alcohol!

--
Steve W.

On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 12:03:46 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

snip
So I'm planning on finding the correct Camero clutch slave cylinder parts
that'll just bolt onto the bellhousing, but that leaves me with needing
to get the master cylinder mounted onto the firewall. I already know
it'll be a bitch; I'm planning on getting all of the Camero parts I can
(both pushrods, both cylinders, even bolts and tubing if I can). But if
the Camero master cylinder just won't fit, how much leeway do I have in
finding something that will?

Hydraulic clutches have been around for some time. It was
the slick way to go years ago when friends were building
their own dune buggy's. Back then they had pedal kits
(clutch, brake and throttle too as I recall) and slaves to
go with. A quick Google search brings up a bunch of stuff.
Maybe some place like this:

http://www.classicchevy5speed.com/Hy...lutch-Kit.aspx

Your the best one to decide if you want to get a ready made
aftermarket kit or piece something together and hope for the
best (shrug).

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

I can't help on you question, but if there are any GM clutch master
cylinder experts out there I'd like to hear from them. I've been
fighting with the POS GM clutch MCs on my truck for quite some time and
am about ready to fabricate my own MC and be done with their garbage.
I'm not sure the slave cylinder is much better either, but it's more
work to try to fabricate one. The problems I keep having are with
intermittent failure to release, very irritating.

On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 13:26:27 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


I can't help on you question, but if there are any GM clutch master
cylinder experts out there I'd like to hear from them. I've been
fighting with the POS GM clutch MCs on my truck for quite some time and
am about ready to fabricate my own MC and be done with their garbage.
I'm not sure the slave cylinder is much better either, but it's more
work to try to fabricate one. The problems I keep having are with
intermittent failure to release, very irritating.

Any chance that you have had the flywheel ground?

Way back, when GM first went to the hydraulic clutch in
there pickup trucks this caused headaches. My brother-inlaw
had his flywheel ground when he replaced the clutch. Then he
had problems getting it to release. Back then they had two
special spacer plates to solve the problem. That was what he
ended up having to do, tear it back down and install a
spacer plate (between the flywheel and motor side).

Personally, I would much rather have a mechanical clutch

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

Leon Fisk wrote:
On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 13:26:27 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:

I can't help on you question, but if there are any GM clutch master
cylinder experts out there I'd like to hear from them. I've been
fighting with the POS GM clutch MCs on my truck for quite some time and
am about ready to fabricate my own MC and be done with their garbage.
I'm not sure the slave cylinder is much better either, but it's more
work to try to fabricate one. The problems I keep having are with
intermittent failure to release, very irritating.

Any chance that you have had the flywheel ground?

Way back, when GM first went to the hydraulic clutch in
there pickup trucks this caused headaches. My brother-inlaw
had his flywheel ground when he replaced the clutch. Then he
had problems getting it to release. Back then they had two
special spacer plates to solve the problem. That was what he
ended up having to do, tear it back down and install a
spacer plate (between the flywheel and motor side).

Personally, I would much rather have a mechanical clutch

Not me! I've dealt with bent forks, bent bellcranks, stretched and
broken cables for decades.
Make mine hydraulic. For that matter, the concentric slave cylinders
are pretty slick if they weren't so hard to change out.

Was it Saab that mounted it on the front of the engine where it was easy
to get to?

Leon Fisk wrote:

On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 13:26:27 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


I can't help on you question, but if there are any GM clutch master
cylinder experts out there I'd like to hear from them. I've been
fighting with the POS GM clutch MCs on my truck for quite some time and
am about ready to fabricate my own MC and be done with their garbage.
I'm not sure the slave cylinder is much better either, but it's more
work to try to fabricate one. The problems I keep having are with
intermittent failure to release, very irritating.

Any chance that you have had the flywheel ground?

Way back, when GM first went to the hydraulic clutch in
there pickup trucks this caused headaches. My brother-inlaw
had his flywheel ground when he replaced the clutch. Then he
had problems getting it to release. Back then they had two
special spacer plates to solve the problem. That was what he
ended up having to do, tear it back down and install a
spacer plate (between the flywheel and motor side).

Personally, I would much rather have a mechanical clutch

No grinding or anything, just continual clutch no-release problems.
Clutch replaced once, coaxial slave cylinder replaced another time, MCs
replaced like four times. Never had a problem with clutch slip, only
failure to release.

Now that I have a new truck, I'm getting ready to pull the clutch on the
old one myself and see if I can fix it for good. This truck also ate
rear axle seals until I got into it. Axles seals replaced under warranty
several times, when they went again out of warranty I replaced them
myself and haven't had a problem since (195k+ now).

Pete C. wrote:
No grinding or anything, just continual clutch no-release problems.
Clutch replaced once, coaxial slave cylinder replaced another time, MCs
replaced like four times. Never had a problem with clutch slip, only
failure to release.

Now that I have a new truck, I'm getting ready to pull the clutch on the
old one myself and see if I can fix it for good. This truck also ate
rear axle seals until I got into it. Axles seals replaced under warranty
several times, when they went again out of warranty I replaced them
myself and haven't had a problem since (195k+ now).

Step down and no release? If you step down a second time does it release
then?


--
Steve W.

"Steve W." wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
No grinding or anything, just continual clutch no-release problems.
Clutch replaced once, coaxial slave cylinder replaced another time, MCs
replaced like four times. Never had a problem with clutch slip, only
failure to release.

Now that I have a new truck, I'm getting ready to pull the clutch on the
old one myself and see if I can fix it for good. This truck also ate
rear axle seals until I got into it. Axles seals replaced under warranty
several times, when they went again out of warranty I replaced them
myself and haven't had a problem since (195k+ now).

Step down and no release?

Yep, makes it kinds difficult to shift. Bit of a problem when you need
to stop as well.

If you step down a second time does it release
then?

Nope, pump it a half dozen times and you might get it to release enough
to shift with a clunk. Doesn't do it all the time either, can be working
just fine then start acting up.

I have no good way to monitor it for testing, but I suspect the MC
reservoir valve isn't sealing well allowing some of the stroke output to
simply go back to the reservoir.

I expect I could fabricate a better MC setup and add a bit more
displacement as well since I've always felt it bordered on not enough
displacement.

"Tim Wescott" wrote in message
...

You might also try alt.trucks.chevy, since a truck part is involved.

Tim Wescott wrote:
My _first_ question is: are all clutch master cylinders created equal?

So I'm planning on finding the correct Camero clutch slave cylinder parts
that'll just bolt onto the bellhousing, but that leaves me with needing
to get the master cylinder mounted onto the firewall. I already know
it'll be a bitch; I'm planning on getting all of the Camero parts I can
(both pushrods, both cylinders, even bolts and tubing if I can). But if
the Camero master cylinder just won't fit, how much leeway do I have in
finding something that will? Do I get just any old thing? Is there an
interchange book that's accessible? Are different master cylinders with
different bores readily available, and how much can I compensate for
differing pedal-to-pushrod mechanical advantages by changing the master
cylinder bore? Are there any other differences I need to know (surely
there are some valving issues -- anything else?).

Tim, that's about as simple a hydraulic project as there is.
The pressures are laughable. The only real consideration is whether the
volume of the MC is sufficient to move your slave piston the required
distance.
There are dozens of of clutch master cylinders available in the
aftermarket hot-rod catalogs. I'd bet money you aren't the first one
to do this exact project.
Persoanlly, I'd call Craig Taylor at Taylor Engineering in Dallas.
Nice guy, very helpful, and I bet he can tell you exactly what you
need off the top of his head.

On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 12:03:46 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

I'll ask my _second_ question _first_, so you can think about it while
you read my first question: What's a good newsgroup to post this sort of
question? I hate fora, so if there's an active newsgroup that'd be
vastly preferred.

My _first_ question is: are all clutch master cylinders created equal?

I'm putting a 2.8L V-6 into a Vega (to be followed by a 3.4L V-6 from GM
Performance Parts, if they survive the bankruptcy). I'm doing this
instead of a small block V-8 because I'm crazy, because the 2.8 block
lets be get at the spark plugs without jacking the motor up, and because
it'll help retain a halfway decent balance fore and aft (I hope).

Because I'm crazy I'm retaining the stick shift of the original, so I
need a clutch linkage. The transmission that fits well is from an '87
Camero (with 2.8L V-6), but it wants a hydraulic clutch instead of the
cable clutch which came on the Vega and the S-10 that donated the engine.

For a variety of reasons (mostly having to do with the advisability of
welding on unknown alloy cast aluminum) I don't want to modify the Camero
bellhousing. The S-10 bellhousing won't fit.

So I'm planning on finding the correct Camero clutch slave cylinder parts
that'll just bolt onto the bellhousing, but that leaves me with needing
to get the master cylinder mounted onto the firewall. I already know
it'll be a bitch; I'm planning on getting all of the Camero parts I can
(both pushrods, both cylinders, even bolts and tubing if I can). But if
the Camero master cylinder just won't fit, how much leeway do I have in
finding something that will? Do I get just any old thing? Is there an
interchange book that's accessible? Are different master cylinders with
different bores readily available, and how much can I compensate for
differing pedal-to-pushrod mechanical advantages by changing the master
cylinder bore? Are there any other differences I need to know (surely
there are some valving issues -- anything else?).

TIA.
You need the same overall mechanical advantage - main thing is the
bore of the master cyl - assuming the leverage on the pedal is the
same.

Measure the bore of the clutch slave and the master of the original
install - calculate ratio. Then calculate the mechanical advantage of
the clutch pedal as a lever. Multiply them for the total MA.

If your replacement setup is close, you are OK. Low MA makes a heavy
pedal.

On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 12:03:46 -0500, Tim Wescott wrote:

I'll ask my _second_ question _first_, so you can think about it while
you read my first question: What's a good newsgroup to post this sort of
question? I hate fora, so if there's an active newsgroup that'd be
vastly preferred.

My _first_ question is: are all clutch master cylinders created equal?

I'm putting a 2.8L V-6 into a Vega (to be followed by a 3.4L V-6 from GM
Performance Parts, if they survive the bankruptcy). I'm doing this
instead of a small block V-8 because I'm crazy, because the 2.8 block
lets be get at the spark plugs without jacking the motor up, and because
it'll help retain a halfway decent balance fore and aft (I hope).

Because I'm crazy I'm retaining the stick shift of the original, so I
need a clutch linkage. The transmission that fits well is from an '87
Camero (with 2.8L V-6), but it wants a hydraulic clutch instead of the
cable clutch which came on the Vega and the S-10 that donated the
engine.

For a variety of reasons (mostly having to do with the advisability of
welding on unknown alloy cast aluminum) I don't want to modify the
Camero bellhousing. The S-10 bellhousing won't fit.

So I'm planning on finding the correct Camero clutch slave cylinder
parts that'll just bolt onto the bellhousing, but that leaves me with
needing to get the master cylinder mounted onto the firewall. I already
know it'll be a bitch; I'm planning on getting all of the Camero parts I
can (both pushrods, both cylinders, even bolts and tubing if I can).
But if the Camero master cylinder just won't fit, how much leeway do I
have in finding something that will? Do I get just any old thing? Is
there an interchange book that's accessible? Are different master
cylinders with different bores readily available, and how much can I
compensate for differing pedal-to-pushrod mechanical advantages by
changing the master cylinder bore? Are there any other differences I
need to know (surely there are some valving issues -- anything else?).

TIA.

Comments here, plus perusal of some ads in Street Rodder (_why_ didn't I
think of that before?) lead me to think that I can make a suitable
linkage to place the clutch MS in decent place, then I'll use whatever
seems to have the right bore (hopefully cheap, from a junkyard).

--
www.wescottdesign.com