"Lew Hartswick" wrote in message
...
John G. wrote:

There were certainly 28VDC to 115? volt 3phaseAC inverters but also many
aircraft radios had individual dynamotors which were 28VDC in and various
high voltage DC out.

John G.
Anyone rememberwhat was called the " ARC 5" series of aircraft
equipment? :-) Transmitters and receivers.
...lew...

Sure. They were still common when I got my first ham license in 1959. I
never owned one, but I worked numerous stations that had them (with my WRL
Globe Chief and Hallicrafters S-107).

--
Ed Huntress

On Thu, 5 Feb 2009 22:27:32 -0600, "Don Young"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 05 Feb 2009 08:48:19 -0800, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

On Thu, 05 Feb 2009 09:24:16 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:
On Thu, 5 Feb 2009 09:23:58 -0500, "Proctologically Violated©®"
wrote:


Funny that radios and ham operators would use this, as my understanding
was
these things eventually became illegal to use or sumpn, because of the
massive radio interference they generated, due to the 60 hz arcing of
the
contacts.

I could see a ham perhaps sending signals with this vibrator ditty, but
having a helluva time receiving stuff.

But if they were used in car radios as well, then mebbe this is not in
fact
an issue.

But iirc, there was sumpn about them being illegal due to the generated
interference.

Not illegal, but you had to engineer and shield them against
transmitting any hash, and the darned things failed on a regular basis
- moving parts, arcing contacts, etc. And now you have the extra
added bonus of finding a replacement for a way obsolete part...

For a while they had plug-in replacement "Solid State Vibrators" for
just that purpose, but when they saturated that market (and all the
equipment that needed them was scrapped) they went away, too.

*ALL* tube-type car radios used vibrators to produce the B+ (plate)
suppply voltage. This was when car radios were AM only -- AM being
much more susceptable to interference than FM is. The radios were
typically quite good because they didn't have much signal to work with
-- a whip is electrically very short at AM band frequencies. They
were typically superheterodynes with a tuned RF stage, though not
typically dual-conversion.

Gee, better not show you my 61 Corvair radio, then. It's a hybrid,
with special tubes that didn't need HV in the receiver stages, and a
single TO-3 power transistor for the PA Amplifier. They were still
figuring out how to build them all Solid State.

Had a friend go through and replace all the caps a few years ago
when it quit.

Absolute statements can be dangerous - All, Nothing, Absolutely,
Never... Murphy loves nothing better than making an ass out of
someone who promises "That can't possibly happen!"

-- Bruce --
The statement ALL tube radios had them was NOT false - your Corvair
radio was a HYBRID, not a tube receiver (although it DID have a few
tubes in it)
There seem to be exceptions to most absolute statements. Some very early
all-tube car radios used motor-generators (dynamotors) for high voltage
supply. I think it was around mid-to-late 1920's and I think Cadillac was
one of the first to offer a radio. Motorola and Philco were among the
pioneer car radio manufacturers.

Don Young


Well, there may have been a VERY few. I've never seen one or reference
to one and I've been in the old car hobby. Militay and aircraft apps
did use dynamotors.
Studebaker was the first company to supply
"factory" radios, made by Blaupunkt in 1932. and Crossley in the UK
provided radios in their cars in 1932.
Galvin Electric produced the first"Motor" radio, called the Motorola
5T71 in 1930.

I would be interested in any documentation proving a dynamotor was
ever used in a purpose-built automotive RECIEVER.
The only radio applications of a dynamotor I have ever come across was
for transmitters or tranceivers which required more power. I have a
580 volt 100ma dynamotor flying around here somewhere from a military
aircraft application.

On Thu, 5 Feb 2009 21:37:02 -0800, "Bill Noble"
wrote:


"
*ALL* tube-type car radios used vibrators to produce the B+ (plate)
suppply voltage. This was when car radios were AM only -- AM being
much more susceptable to interference than FM is. The radios were
typically quite good because they didn't have much signal to work with
-- a whip is electrically very short at AM band frequencies. They
were typically superheterodynes with a tuned RF stage, though not
typically dual-conversion.

the above is not correct. There were special low plate voltage tubes used
in the late 50s in car radios that did not require vibrators to produce HV -
my 59 cadillac's radio uses such tubes. However, before about 1955 or so,
back to the dawn of car radios, that statement would be true for all radios
powered from the 12V or 6V vehicle power system. Some very early radios
were battery sets with their own B and C batteries

Your 1959 Caddy radio was a "hybrid" radio. It had solid state
components. Specifically the transistorized "push-pull" output
amplifier stage. using (generally) a pair of TO36 -possibly TO68 cased
germanium power transistors bolted to a honking big heat-sink on the
back of the case.
"SpaceCharge" tubes could run with 12 volt plates - but could not
handle more than about 50 milliwatts - which would NEVER drive a
speaker. They became feasible with the introduction of transistorized
power output stages in about 1958.

TungSol was the pioneer in these low voltage tubes - like the 12a
series (12ac6, 12 ad6, 12 ae6, 12ae7, etc)

On Thu, 5 Feb 2009 21:39:57 -0800, "Bill Noble"
wrote:


Most aircraft inverters were 12 or 24VDC in and 115 volt 400hz out,
for radio and instrumentation use. I believe some were 400Hz 3 phase
to run gyros.

I think you meant 28VDC for aircraft, not 24 - I haven't ever seen 24 v on
an aircraft, though I suppose it's possible

Semantics. Aircraft use 24 volt batteries, not 28 - but the charging
voltage is twice what it is on a 12 volt car (roughly 14) so the
electronics are designed as "28 volt".

And I know aircraft (and am currently building one)

On Fri, 06 Feb 2009 00:48:19 -0500, Gerald Miller
wrote:

On Fri, 6 Feb 2009 00:21:33 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 5 Feb 2009 00:51:33 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"Gerald Miller" wrote in message
m...
On Wed, 04 Feb 2009 21:21:42 -0500, Gerald Miller
wrote:

On Wed, 4 Feb 2009 20:58:36 -0500, "Proctologically Violated©®"
wrote:

Awl --

Remember those old buzzy heavy NOISY DC to AC inverters, typically 15
amps?
Did I say *heavy*???

What are they called, so I can do a search? "Inverter" floods with
solidstate stuff.
Car radio vibrator?
Where might I find one?

Just tryna recapture a technology I can fukn unnerstand....
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada
Come to think about it, the Model "T" among others used a vibrator
ignition coil (I gave one away a couple months ago to a mechanic to
install in his new car).
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

I think what PV is talking about is a vibrator power supply, which were
commonly used in cabin boats around here back in the '50s and '60s, and
were
used by some ham radio operators who had tube rigs in their trunks.
Heathkit
had a nice one, which they sold fully assembled. It wasn't cheap as I
recall, but I was a kid and nothing looked cheap.

The Blaupunkt tube radio in my '58 Alfa Romeo had a small one; I can't
remember if it was in the trunk, which is where the battery was located,
or
under the dash.

All tube car radios of the past had "multivibrator" choppers that ran
at 115hz, IIRC to produce the plate voltages for the tubes.

I remember those, but the interesting thing about that Blaupunkt was that it
was in a separate box. I never checked the output to see what it was, and
the reason I got into it was that I was replacing the radio.

This is the same radio, I think, along with the external vibrator. But from
the description, it may be that the vibrator was for powering an external
amplifier that was in the same box, which sounds familiar and would explain
it. I sold that car in 1967 so I don't remember the details (the box is down
the page):

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=140299384910


Radiart was a common manufacturer of heavier vibrator choppers used by
the HAM guys.
Mallory was more common in auto radios, but Radfiart was a player
there too.

GToogle Radiart Vibrator Inverter and you will find lots of hits.

Ah, there ya' go. That ought to get PV to what he wants.
I had a, IIRC, RCA radio that was made in two pieces, quite a small
tuner/control box, perhaps1 1/2" H x 5" W x 7" D cable connected the
power supply/amplifier/speaker box ~6" x6" x 5"D. This was a 6 Volt
radio so to use it in my '50 Austin I had to use a dropping resister.
No idea of the year of manufacture - my brother sold it to me in about
1957.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada
Had one of those in a '49 Stude pickup too. One way to make them fit
under the dash.

On Fri, 6 Feb 2009 01:05:15 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"Gerald Miller" wrote in message
.. .

snip

I had a, IIRC, RCA radio that was made in two pieces, quite a small
tuner/control box, perhaps1 1/2" H x 5" W x 7" D cable connected the
power supply/amplifier/speaker box ~6" x6" x 5"D. This was a 6 Volt
radio so to use it in my '50 Austin I had to use a dropping resister.
No idea of the year of manufacture - my brother sold it to me in about
1957.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

A 1950 Austin? Did you have to floor the accelerator before you turned on
the radio, to keep from killing the engine? g

Nope, just like on my 1961 850 Mini - you just used it when you were
going down-hill!

On Fri, 06 Feb 2009 00:43:09 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Thu, 5 Feb 2009 21:37:02 -0800, "Bill Noble"
wrote:


"
*ALL* tube-type car radios used vibrators to produce the B+ (plate)
suppply voltage. This was when car radios were AM only -- AM being
much more susceptable to interference than FM is. The radios were
typically quite good because they didn't have much signal to work with
-- a whip is electrically very short at AM band frequencies. They
were typically superheterodynes with a tuned RF stage, though not
typically dual-conversion.

the above is not correct. There were special low plate voltage tubes used
in the late 50s in car radios that did not require vibrators to produce HV -
my 59 cadillac's radio uses such tubes. However, before about 1955 or so,
back to the dawn of car radios, that statement would be true for all radios
powered from the 12V or 6V vehicle power system. Some very early radios
were battery sets with their own B and C batteries

Once again proving that all generalities are false. G
And as far as I know, there was never a purpose built automotive
radio with a "B" and "c" battery.. Lots of home and "portable" battery
radios though.. And "farm" radios that ran on something like 36 or 42
volts - which DID have vibrator power supplies.

"Lew Hartswick" wrote in message
...
John G. wrote:

There were certainly 28VDC to 115? volt 3phaseAC inverters but also many
aircraft radios had individual dynamotors which were 28VDC in and various
high voltage DC out.

John G.
Anyone rememberwhat was called the " ARC 5" series of aircraft
equipment? :-) Transmitters and receivers.
...lew...

See pictures atbottom of page here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARC-5

John G.

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 5 Feb 2009 22:27:32 -0600, "Don Young"
wrote:


wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 05 Feb 2009 08:48:19 -0800, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

On Thu, 05 Feb 2009 09:24:16 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:
On Thu, 5 Feb 2009 09:23:58 -0500, "Proctologically Violated©®"
wrote:


Funny that radios and ham operators would use this, as my
understanding
was
these things eventually became illegal to use or sumpn, because of the
massive radio interference they generated, due to the 60 hz arcing of
the
contacts.

I could see a ham perhaps sending signals with this vibrator ditty,
but
having a helluva time receiving stuff.

But if they were used in car radios as well, then mebbe this is not in
fact
an issue.

But iirc, there was sumpn about them being illegal due to the
generated
interference.

Not illegal, but you had to engineer and shield them against
transmitting any hash, and the darned things failed on a regular basis
- moving parts, arcing contacts, etc. And now you have the extra
added bonus of finding a replacement for a way obsolete part...

For a while they had plug-in replacement "Solid State Vibrators" for
just that purpose, but when they saturated that market (and all the
equipment that needed them was scrapped) they went away, too.

*ALL* tube-type car radios used vibrators to produce the B+ (plate)
suppply voltage. This was when car radios were AM only -- AM being
much more susceptable to interference than FM is. The radios were
typically quite good because they didn't have much signal to work with
-- a whip is electrically very short at AM band frequencies. They
were typically superheterodynes with a tuned RF stage, though not
typically dual-conversion.

Gee, better not show you my 61 Corvair radio, then. It's a hybrid,
with special tubes that didn't need HV in the receiver stages, and a
single TO-3 power transistor for the PA Amplifier. They were still
figuring out how to build them all Solid State.

Had a friend go through and replace all the caps a few years ago
when it quit.

Absolute statements can be dangerous - All, Nothing, Absolutely,
Never... Murphy loves nothing better than making an ass out of
someone who promises "That can't possibly happen!"

-- Bruce --
The statement ALL tube radios had them was NOT false - your Corvair
radio was a HYBRID, not a tube receiver (although it DID have a few
tubes in it)
There seem to be exceptions to most absolute statements. Some very early
all-tube car radios used motor-generators (dynamotors) for high voltage
supply. I think it was around mid-to-late 1920's and I think Cadillac was
one of the first to offer a radio. Motorola and Philco were among the
pioneer car radio manufacturers.

Don Young


Well, there may have been a VERY few. I've never seen one or reference
to one and I've been in the old car hobby. Militay and aircraft apps
did use dynamotors.
Studebaker was the first company to supply
"factory" radios, made by Blaupunkt in 1932. and Crossley in the UK
provided radios in their cars in 1932.
Galvin Electric produced the first"Motor" radio, called the Motorola
5T71 in 1930.

I would be interested in any documentation proving a dynamotor was
ever used in a purpose-built automotive RECIEVER.
The only radio applications of a dynamotor I have ever come across was
for transmitters or tranceivers which required more power. I have a
580 volt 100ma dynamotor flying around here somewhere from a military
aircraft application.
I have been trying to remember where I read about the dynamotor powered
receiver. I think it might have been in an old auto manual like Dyke's
Encyclopedia. I agree they were not common; I too have been fooling with
cars and radios since the early forties and have never seen one or heard of
one elsewhere.

Don Young

On 2009-02-06, wrote:

[ ... ]

Most aircraft inverters were 12 or 24VDC in and 115 volt 400hz out,
for radio and instrumentation use. I believe some were 400Hz 3 phase
to run gyros.

Yes. I have one -- somewhere. 14 VDC in, 115 V 400 Hz three
phase -- and a couple of instruments (gyrocompass and artificial
horizon) which spin the rotor up using the 400 Hz three phase. They
also use some liquid level sensors to control current to torque motors
to precess the devices to horizontal gyro orientation when they first
spin up. (And I think that they apply very slow correction during
flight, too. Slow enough so if you do a loop you won't confuse it. :-)

These were in the surplus market around 1960, so are certainly
well out of date by now.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 2009-02-06, Bill Noble wrote:

Most aircraft inverters were 12 or 24VDC in and 115 volt 400hz out,
for radio and instrumentation use. I believe some were 400Hz 3 phase
to run gyros.

I think you meant 28VDC for aircraft, not 24 - I haven't ever seen 24 v on
an aircraft, though I suppose it's possible

It is simply a more accurate listing of the voltage. A
lead-acid cell is nominally 2V -- but really enough higher when being
charged so a 6-cell one (nominally 12V is really 14V), and a 12-cell one
is nominally 24V but in reality 28 V).

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 2009-02-06, Lew Hartswick wrote:
John G. wrote:

There were certainly 28VDC to 115? volt 3phaseAC inverters but also many
aircraft radios had individual dynamotors which were 28VDC in and various
high voltage DC out.

John G.
Anyone rememberwhat was called the " ARC 5" series of aircraft
equipment? :-) Transmitters and receivers.

I remember them. I had two or three of the receivers. One
centered around 7 MHz, I forget what the others were.

And I both operated them with the dynamotors, and with a
homebrew AC power supply which plugged in where the dynamotor normally
lived.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 2009-02-06, wrote:
On Thu, 5 Feb 2009 09:23:58 -0500, "Proctologically Violated©®"
wrote:

[ ... ]

Funny that radios and ham operators would use this, as my understanding was
these things eventually became illegal to use or sumpn, because of the
massive radio interference they generated, due to the 60 hz arcing of the
contacts.

Not in a properly designed radio.

I could see a ham perhaps sending signals with this vibrator ditty, but
having a helluva time receiving stuff.

But if they were used in car radios as well, then mebbe this is not in fact
an issue.

But iirc, there was sumpn about them being illegal due to the generated
interference.
In radio use they were always in a CAN - and they ran 115hz.

Except one which I used to generate 20 Hz ring signals for a
small dial telephone exchange. The can was larger in diameter than a
beer can of the time, and the vibrator had a big horseshoe shaped weight
on the vibrating tongue to lower the frequency.

Also -- the whole assembly in the can was packaged in foam
rubber to minimize the acoustical noise transmitted to the car's frame.

They
died out not due to legislation, but due to technology changes, The
transistor killed the vibrator inverter DEAD in a matter of a very few
years.

Exactly. I wonder how long that sealed in foam rubber would
have lasted. I do know that the things were plugged into 4-pin tube
sockets (with a set of fingers to make grounding connection to the can
to control RFI.

This was one of the first uses of transistors in automobile
radios -- to generate the higher voltage that the tube plates needed.
And the power lead in from the car's circuit was connected to one side
of a very thin printed circuit board, with the other side firmly
grounded to bypass HV spikes in the power from the car's electrical
system. (I guess that a sufficiently high spike voltage would arc over
the edge of the circuit board, but mostly it acted as a high frequency
and low inductance capacitor. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

I've never seen a vibrator supply that generated 60 Hz./120VAC. The
vibrator contacts could not handle a lot of current, so I'm dubious as to
this use.

Most made ~100+ hz that fed a small xfmr to make plate voltage to the
tubes.

OK, I do know of one exception.....a long time ago. In the early days of
geranium power transistors you could buy power capacity, or gain; but not
both. [It took silly-cone ones, years later, to put this issue to bed.]

So Lee, a friend of mine, a designer of many things inc. larger invertors
at Lorain Products, had an engineer friend Steve who wanted to make his
own ~~200W 120VAC invertor.

Steve could have used an oscillator, a few stages of gain, and then
the power transistors. But he wimped out -- he used a vibrator that
then directly drive the output transistors. Lee was outraged at such
a ..rotten.. design; when he wound and coated the transformers for Steve,
he wrote RTNVTR on the iron before sealing them.

It worked, it ran, and Lee still hated it.

Then Phil borrowed it for National Guard "summer camp.." One day, when
Phil was sleeping in [no surprise there.....], two alleged buddies
borrowed it so the one could shave.

Stupid 1: "But it's 12 volts; where will we get that?"

Stupid 2: "Simple, jeeps..."

S1: "But that's 6 volts....

S2: "I know, you dummy... we'll put 2 jeeps in series. I know
all about this electricity stuff..."

But, as those of you with some years may know; while cars of that era
were 6 volts; military jeeps of the 50's/60's were not -- they were
....24 volt...


24+24 =

In the words of one of the Stupids, the shaver "made a noise like a jet
airplane" and stopped after a few seconds, when the invertor input fuse
blew. It was fine with a new fuse, but for some reason, the shaver never
ran again...


--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

"Ed Huntress" writes:

Anyone rememberwhat was called the " ARC 5" series of aircraft
equipment? :-) Transmitters and receivers.
...lew...

Sure. They were still common when I got my first ham license in 1959. I
never owned one, but I worked numerous stations that had them (with my WRL
Globe Chief and Hallicrafters S-107).

You can STILL find them at hamfests. For years in the 60/70's; DoD would
close another WWII warehouse and a dump a few thounsand more on the
market...


--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

On Fri, 6 Feb 2009 21:06:04 -0600, "Don Young"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 5 Feb 2009 22:27:32 -0600, "Don Young"
wrote:


wrote in message
...
On Thu, 05 Feb 2009 08:48:19 -0800, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

On Thu, 05 Feb 2009 09:24:16 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:
On Thu, 5 Feb 2009 09:23:58 -0500, "Proctologically Violated©®"
wrote:


Funny that radios and ham operators would use this, as my
understanding
was
these things eventually became illegal to use or sumpn, because of the
massive radio interference they generated, due to the 60 hz arcing of
the
contacts.

I could see a ham perhaps sending signals with this vibrator ditty,
but
having a helluva time receiving stuff.

But if they were used in car radios as well, then mebbe this is not in
fact
an issue.

But iirc, there was sumpn about them being illegal due to the
generated
interference.

Not illegal, but you had to engineer and shield them against
transmitting any hash, and the darned things failed on a regular basis
- moving parts, arcing contacts, etc. And now you have the extra
added bonus of finding a replacement for a way obsolete part...

For a while they had plug-in replacement "Solid State Vibrators" for
just that purpose, but when they saturated that market (and all the
equipment that needed them was scrapped) they went away, too.

*ALL* tube-type car radios used vibrators to produce the B+ (plate)
suppply voltage. This was when car radios were AM only -- AM being
much more susceptable to interference than FM is. The radios were
typically quite good because they didn't have much signal to work with
-- a whip is electrically very short at AM band frequencies. They
were typically superheterodynes with a tuned RF stage, though not
typically dual-conversion.

Gee, better not show you my 61 Corvair radio, then. It's a hybrid,
with special tubes that didn't need HV in the receiver stages, and a
single TO-3 power transistor for the PA Amplifier. They were still
figuring out how to build them all Solid State.

Had a friend go through and replace all the caps a few years ago
when it quit.

Absolute statements can be dangerous - All, Nothing, Absolutely,
Never... Murphy loves nothing better than making an ass out of
someone who promises "That can't possibly happen!"

-- Bruce --
The statement ALL tube radios had them was NOT false - your Corvair
radio was a HYBRID, not a tube receiver (although it DID have a few
tubes in it)
There seem to be exceptions to most absolute statements. Some very early
all-tube car radios used motor-generators (dynamotors) for high voltage
supply. I think it was around mid-to-late 1920's and I think Cadillac was
one of the first to offer a radio. Motorola and Philco were among the
pioneer car radio manufacturers.

Don Young


Well, there may have been a VERY few. I've never seen one or reference
to one and I've been in the old car hobby. Militay and aircraft apps
did use dynamotors.
Studebaker was the first company to supply
"factory" radios, made by Blaupunkt in 1932. and Crossley in the UK
provided radios in their cars in 1932.
Galvin Electric produced the first"Motor" radio, called the Motorola
5T71 in 1930.

I would be interested in any documentation proving a dynamotor was
ever used in a purpose-built automotive RECIEVER.
The only radio applications of a dynamotor I have ever come across was
for transmitters or tranceivers which required more power. I have a
580 volt 100ma dynamotor flying around here somewhere from a military
aircraft application.
I have been trying to remember where I read about the dynamotor powered
receiver. I think it might have been in an old auto manual like Dyke's
Encyclopedia. I agree they were not common; I too have been fooling with
cars and radios since the early forties and have never seen one or heard of
one elsewhere.

Don Young

No reference in Dykes.

On 7 Feb 2009 04:38:21 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2009-02-06, wrote:
On Thu, 5 Feb 2009 09:23:58 -0500, "Proctologically Violated©®"
wrote:

[ ... ]

Funny that radios and ham operators would use this, as my understanding was
these things eventually became illegal to use or sumpn, because of the
massive radio interference they generated, due to the 60 hz arcing of the
contacts.

Not in a properly designed radio.

I could see a ham perhaps sending signals with this vibrator ditty, but
having a helluva time receiving stuff.

But if they were used in car radios as well, then mebbe this is not in fact
an issue.

But iirc, there was sumpn about them being illegal due to the generated
interference.
In radio use they were always in a CAN - and they ran 115hz.

Except one which I used to generate 20 Hz ring signals for a
small dial telephone exchange. The can was larger in diameter than a
beer can of the time, and the vibrator had a big horseshoe shaped weight
on the vibrating tongue to lower the frequency.

Also -- the whole assembly in the can was packaged in foam
rubber to minimize the acoustical noise transmitted to the car's frame.

They
died out not due to legislation, but due to technology changes, The
transistor killed the vibrator inverter DEAD in a matter of a very few
years.

Exactly. I wonder how long that sealed in foam rubber would
have lasted. I do know that the things were plugged into 4-pin tube
sockets (with a set of fingers to make grounding connection to the can
to control RFI.

This was one of the first uses of transistors in automobile
radios -- to generate the higher voltage that the tube plates needed.
And the power lead in from the car's circuit was connected to one side
of a very thin printed circuit board, with the other side firmly
grounded to bypass HV spikes in the power from the car's electrical
system. (I guess that a sufficiently high spike voltage would arc over
the edge of the circuit board, but mostly it acted as a high frequency
and low inductance capacitor. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.
Actually, Don, the first use of transistors in automotive use was to
ELIMINATE the requirement for high voltage entirely. Space-charge
tubes ran on 12 volts, but could not handle high power, so the high
power job, the output stage, was transistorized while the low voltage
micro-power tubes handled the high frequency loww power stuff. These
were the HYBRID radios of the late fifties and early sixties.
I'm not aware of a production automotive radio using an electronic
inverter, although there were definitely aftermarket vibrator
replacements made using solid state multivibrators.

On Sat, 7 Feb 2009 04:59:27 +0000 (UTC), David Lesher
wrote:



I've never seen a vibrator supply that generated 60 Hz./120VAC. The
vibrator contacts could not handle a lot of current, so I'm dubious as to
this use.

There WERE some 60Hz vibrators, but very few. Most were 115 and a few
were 180.

Most made ~100+ hz that fed a small xfmr to make plate voltage to the
tubes.

OK, I do know of one exception.....a long time ago. In the early days of
geranium power transistors you could buy power capacity, or gain; but not
both. [It took silly-cone ones, years later, to put this issue to bed.]

So Lee, a friend of mine, a designer of many things inc. larger invertors
at Lorain Products, had an engineer friend Steve who wanted to make his
own ~~200W 120VAC invertor.

Steve could have used an oscillator, a few stages of gain, and then
the power transistors. But he wimped out -- he used a vibrator that
then directly drive the output transistors. Lee was outraged at such
a ..rotten.. design; when he wound and coated the transformers for Steve,
he wrote RTNVTR on the iron before sealing them.

It worked, it ran, and Lee still hated it.

Then Phil borrowed it for National Guard "summer camp.." One day, when
Phil was sleeping in [no surprise there.....], two alleged buddies
borrowed it so the one could shave.

Stupid 1: "But it's 12 volts; where will we get that?"

Stupid 2: "Simple, jeeps..."

S1: "But that's 6 volts....

S2: "I know, you dummy... we'll put 2 jeeps in series. I know
all about this electricity stuff..."

But, as those of you with some years may know; while cars of that era
were 6 volts; military jeeps of the 50's/60's were not -- they were
...24 volt...


24+24 =

In the words of one of the Stupids, the shaver "made a noise like a jet
airplane" and stopped after a few seconds, when the invertor input fuse
blew. It was fine with a new fuse, but for some reason, the shaver never
ran again...

On Sat, 7 Feb 2009 04:59:27 +0000 (UTC), David Lesher
wrote:


I've never seen a vibrator supply that generated 60 Hz./120VAC. The
vibrator contacts could not handle a lot of current, so I'm dubious as to
this use.

Most made ~100+ hz that fed a small xfmr to make plate voltage to the
tubes.

Right, which is why you usually used a Motor-Generator style rotary
converter to get bomb-proof operation making mass quantities of 120
VAC (more or less) at 60 Hz (more or less) for lights, plugs, motors,
etc. It's fairly easy to build a compound wound 1/4 to 1/2 HP 12V
motor that would hold appx. 3600 RPM with varying loads, and a small
two-pole alternator on the same shaft.

OK, I do know of one exception.....a long time ago. In the early days of
geranium power transistors you could buy power capacity, or gain; but not
both. [It took silly-cone ones, years later, to put this issue to bed.]

So Lee, a friend of mine, a designer of many things inc. larger invertors
at Lorain Products, had an engineer friend Steve who wanted to make his
own ~~200W 120VAC invertor.

Steve could have used an oscillator, a few stages of gain, and then
the power transistors. But he wimped out -- he used a vibrator that
then directly drive the output transistors. Lee was outraged at such
a ..rotten.. design; when he wound and coated the transformers for Steve,
he wrote RTNVTR on the iron before sealing them.

It worked, it ran, and Lee still hated it.

Then Phil borrowed it for National Guard "summer camp.." One day, when
Phil was sleeping in [no surprise there.....], two alleged buddies
borrowed it so the one could shave.

Stupid 1: "But it's 12 volts; where will we get that?"

Stupid 2: "Simple, jeeps..."

S1: "But that's 6 volts....

S2: "I know, you dummy... we'll put 2 jeeps in series. I know
all about this electricity stuff..."

But, as those of you with some years may know; while cars of that era
were 6 volts; military jeeps of the 50's/60's were not -- they were
...24 volt...


24+24 =

In the words of one of the Stupids, the shaver "made a noise like a jet
airplane" and stopped after a few seconds, when the invertor input fuse
blew. It was fine with a new fuse, but for some reason, the shaver never
ran again...

And for anyone who knows... ;-)

Lorain built lots of gear for telephone switchrooms, and they run
-48V DC native. With two Military Jeeps as the power source, he could
have brought one of the pre-made (not custom) CO Power inverters.

-- Bruce --

Bruce L. Bergman writes:


Lorain built lots of gear for telephone switchrooms, and they run
-48V DC native. With two Military Jeeps as the power source, he could
have brought one of the pre-made (not custom) CO Power inverters.

Lorain made LOTS of stuff. I don't recall CO 60 Hz inverters but midst
many other products, they could have been there. In any case, Phil
didn't know the Stupids would "borrow" his borrowed unit.

C.P. Stocker's first product was the Sub-Cycle; a ferro-resonant tank
that was tuned for 20 Hz out, but kicked by 60Hz. SubCycles supplied
ringing voltage for hundreds of Central Offices.

It replaced ugly motor-generators [big CO's] and the vibrating reed
disasters that DoN mentioned; they were used in small CO's including the
runts: Community Dial Offices.

Later SubCycles came with 30 Hz output, widely used in PBX's; they were
far cheaper to make.

Unlike MG's and reeds, SubCycles were zero maintenance & ran untouched
for decades. They were overvoltage/short circuit proof. [Worst case,
they'd deliver their rated output into a short..]

Later Lorain made loop extenders [basically upped the loop current on
long rural lines by increasing the voltage], loop amps [gain for long
loops], big, no BIG battery chargers of many sizes, [Lee had a surplus
~800A/9vdc unit; most were for 48v strings, with equalization.] and
inverters up to the low fractional-megawatt range.

--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

"DoN. Nichols" writes:


[ ... ]

Funny that radios and ham operators would use this, as my understanding was
these things eventually became illegal to use or sumpn, because of the
massive radio interference they generated, due to the 60 hz arcing of the
contacts.

Not in a properly designed radio.

I'm dubious.... While vibrators may make local hash, the FCC didn't care
about such until they issued regs for computer emissions; a decade or
past vibrators stopped being used by anyone sane.

--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

On Sun, 8 Feb 2009 00:39:55 +0000 (UTC), David Lesher
wrote:

Bruce L. Bergman writes:


Lorain built lots of gear for telephone switchrooms, and they run
-48V DC native. With two Military Jeeps as the power source, he could
have brought one of the pre-made (not custom) CO Power inverters.

Lorain made LOTS of stuff. I don't recall CO 60 Hz inverters but midst
many other products, they could have been there. In any case, Phil
didn't know the Stupids would "borrow" his borrowed unit.

C.P. Stocker's first product was the Sub-Cycle; a ferro-resonant tank
that was tuned for 20 Hz out, but kicked by 60Hz. SubCycles supplied
ringing voltage for hundreds of Central Offices.

It replaced ugly motor-generators [big CO's] and the vibrating reed
disasters that DoN mentioned; they were used in small CO's including the
runts: Community Dial Offices.

Later SubCycles came with 30 Hz output, widely used in PBX's; they were
far cheaper to make.

Unlike MG's and reeds, SubCycles were zero maintenance & ran untouched
for decades. They were overvoltage/short circuit proof. [Worst case,
they'd deliver their rated output into a short..]

Later Lorain made loop extenders [basically upped the loop current on
long rural lines by increasing the voltage], loop amps [gain for long
loops], big, no BIG battery chargers of many sizes, [Lee had a surplus
~800A/9vdc unit; most were for 48v strings, with equalization.] and
inverters up to the low fractional-megawatt range.

I did mention I was in COE Construction at GTE for several years
right at the tail end of Step and the dawn of Digital, right? I've
messed with most flavors of what you just described - and the End Cell
rectifiers were usually 6V and not that big, in the 200A range, one
per office. They only had to bring the end cells back up after a long
outage, and the float and equalize.

Didn't get down to the component level repairs much, but lots of
putting in and taking out. And some of the gear dated to the 1930's
like the Western Electric N Carrier that was still in operation into
the 1970's, and the Audichron time and temp drum announcer at San
Fernando. Rube Goldberg would have been proud.

-- Bruce --

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote:

For a while they had plug-in replacement "Solid State Vibrators" for
just that purpose, but when they saturated that market (and all the
equipment that needed them was scrapped) they went away, too.


Solid state vibrators are still being made and sold to the antique
car crowd.


--
And another motherboard bites the dust!