I built a steam powered tricycle but have been having problems going
any distance with it.
It has a combination firetube - watertube boiler and when fired hard
the water bubbles up and goes out the outlet, locking up the engine.
I am building a trap consisting of a brass vessel about 1-1/4" dia and
3-1/2" long.
I plan to put insulation on so as not to lose too much heat.
I'm trying to decide what would be the best material for this.
It should be inexpensive, fireproof and easy to apply.
Any ideas?
Engineman

http://engineman69.home.comcast.net/.../onwheels.html

wrote:
I built a steam powered tricycle but have been having problems going
any distance with it.
It has a combination firetube - watertube boiler and when fired hard
the water bubbles up and goes out the outlet, locking up the engine.
I am building a trap consisting of a brass vessel about 1-1/4" dia and
3-1/2" long.
I plan to put insulation on so as not to lose too much heat.
I'm trying to decide what would be the best material for this.
It should be inexpensive, fireproof and easy to apply.
Any ideas?
Engineman

http://engineman69.home.comcast.net/.../onwheels.html

(In for a penny, in for a pound - apologies to Ralph Nader)

Asbestos.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

wrote:
I built a steam powered tricycle but have been having problems going
any distance with it.
It has a combination firetube - watertube boiler and when fired hard
the water bubbles up and goes out the outlet, locking up the engine.
I am building a trap consisting of a brass vessel about 1-1/4" dia and
3-1/2" long.
I plan to put insulation on so as not to lose too much heat.
I'm trying to decide what would be the best material for this.
It should be inexpensive, fireproof and easy to apply.
Any ideas?
Engineman

http://engineman69.home.comcast.net/.../onwheels.html

Search for the likes of Kaowool which is a ceramic fiber blanket. It
comes in various densities and insulation values, denser seems better
insulating IIRC. IIRC Kaowool is not good to breath the fibres of in any
quantity but there is a similar product which is body soluble but
doesn't have the same upper working temp, mind you the body soluble
stuff goes to about 1200C so most likely fine for your app . A good
place to start would be a ceramics/potters supply or a general
refractory supplier. I know about it through my involvement in glass
blowing.

wrote in message
...
I built a steam powered tricycle but have been having problems going
any distance with it.
It has a combination firetube - watertube boiler and when fired hard
the water bubbles up and goes out the outlet, locking up the engine.
I am building a trap consisting of a brass vessel about 1-1/4" dia and
3-1/2" long.
I plan to put insulation on so as not to lose too much heat.
I'm trying to decide what would be the best material for this.
It should be inexpensive, fireproof and easy to apply.
Any ideas?
Engineman

http://engineman69.home.comcast.net/.../onwheels.html



http://www.mcmaster.com/
9364K13

Mineral Wool Insulation for Pipe and Tube 1-3/8" Inside Diameter, 1"
Thick, 3' Length
In stock at $7.50 Each

Paul K. Dickman

On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 12:03:54 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

I am building a trap consisting of a brass vessel about 1-1/4" dia and
3-1/2" long.
I plan to put insulation on so as not to lose too much heat.
I'm trying to decide what would be the best material for this.
It should be inexpensive, fireproof and easy to apply.

Pipe insulation, for example this stuff from McMaster, which is good
to 850F. Remove the outer covering if the outside will be exposed to
high temps. I'm sure you can also find it locally.

5556K33
High Temp Fiberglass Insulation for Pipe 1" Thick, 1-3/8" Inside
Diameter, 3' Length
In stock at $8.07 Each

--
Ned Simmons

Tis a shame that you can't route the water back into a pot that
has a one way valve into the pot. Water last longer then.

Long time no see. Someday soon I hope.

Best Regards,
Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/


wrote:
I built a steam powered tricycle but have been having problems going
any distance with it.
It has a combination firetube - watertube boiler and when fired hard
the water bubbles up and goes out the outlet, locking up the engine.
I am building a trap consisting of a brass vessel about 1-1/4" dia and
3-1/2" long.
I plan to put insulation on so as not to lose too much heat.
I'm trying to decide what would be the best material for this.
It should be inexpensive, fireproof and easy to apply.
Any ideas?
Engineman

http://engineman69.home.comcast.net/.../onwheels.html


----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 12:03:54 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

I built a steam powered tricycle but have been having problems going
any distance with it.
It has a combination firetube - watertube boiler and when fired hard
the water bubbles up and goes out the outlet, locking up the engine.
I am building a trap consisting of a brass vessel about 1-1/4" dia and
3-1/2" long.
I plan to put insulation on so as not to lose too much heat.
I'm trying to decide what would be the best material for this.
It should be inexpensive, fireproof and easy to apply.
Any ideas?
Engineman

http://engineman69.home.comcast.net/.../onwheels.html

I'd give ideas from my "never done it myself" perspective, but the
photos are too small and too far away to see exactly what you did.

Do you have a real "Steam Dome" on the boiler, or a superheater
coil? (You only mentioned a feed-water preheat coil.) The steam dome
tries to get some vertical distance from the water level so it doesn't
work water, and the superheater coil would heat up and flash any water
that got that far.

The dome is supposed to tap from the center, so surging water from
acceleration or braking or turns or hills stays out of the dome - if
you are tapping the main steam outlet from the side of the boiler like
a standard VFT design (and it sure looks like that on the
'engineassembled' page) I'd expect bad working water every single time
you made a left turn.

Try putting an upside down U loop on the main steam line to the
engine, large enough to keep the velocity down and allow the water to
separate and drain back, and insulate the heck out of it - that might
be enough.

Next step - build a water tank sitting in back next to the propane.

Now you've got me thinking of building one... But where the heck
can you get a small steam turbine alternator (12VDC 30A-50A) to run
all the accessory loads? The ones from locomotives are a bit big.

-- Bruce --

On Aug 22, 2:03*pm, " wrote:
I built a steam powered tricycle but have been having problems going
any distance with it.
It has a combination firetube - watertube boiler and when fired hard
the water bubbles up and goes out the outlet, locking up the engine.
I am building a trap consisting of a brass vessel about 1-1/4" dia and
3-1/2" long.
I plan to put insulation on so as not to lose too much heat.
I'm trying to decide what would be the best material for this.
It should be inexpensive, fireproof and easy to apply.
Any ideas?
Engineman

http://engineman69.home.comcast.net/.../onwheels.html

Good luck to you.

This looks like a really fun and exciting project.

Lewis.

*****

Bruce, you seem to have a quite a bit of know-how in a lot of
different subjects, not only electricity but autos and even steam
engines. I don't know if you are serious about building a turbine
driven alternator but here is an idea about using an old turbocharger
for a steam turbine.
http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2008/1/13/214327/136

I have another question for you or the group:
I have had problems with the heat from the lower boiler housing
causing tire blowouts.
The housing gets red hot in places and is inly about 1/2" from the
tire.
there is no way that I know of to fasten insulsation to this surface
that will stand the temperature and rough handeling so I'm making a
heat shield.
I'm using a piece of 20 ga. stainless and tack welding it to the
boiler housing.
I picked stainless for it's poor heat conductivity and I'm polishing
the inside surface to reflect radiated heat.
My question is whether it would help to polish the metal on the tire
side also?
Engineman


On Aug 22, 2:03�pm, " wrote:

I built a steam powered tricycle but have been having problems going
any distance with it.
It has a combination firetube - watertube boiler and when fired hard
the water bubbles up and goes out the outlet, locking up the engine.
I am building a trap consisting of a brass vessel about 1-1/4" dia and
3-1/2" long.
I plan to put insulation on so as not to lose too much heat.
I'm trying to decide what would be the best material for this.
It should be inexpensive, fireproof and easy to apply.
Any ideas?
Engineman

I'd give ideas from my "never done it myself" perspective, but the
photos are too small and too far away to see exactly what you did.

Do you have a real "Steam Dome" on the boiler, or a superheater
coil? (You only mentioned a feed-water preheat coil.) The steam
dome
tries to get some vertical distance from the water level so it
doesn't
work water, and the superheater coil would heat up and flash any
water
that got that far.


The dome is supposed to tap from the center, so surging water from
acceleration or braking or turns or hills stays out of the dome - if
you are tapping the main steam outlet from the side of the boiler
like
a standard VFT design (and it sure looks like that on the
'engineassembled' page) I'd expect bad working water every single
time
you made a left turn.


Try putting an upside down U loop on the main steam line to the
engine, large enough to keep the velocity down and allow the water to
separate and drain back, and insulate the heck out of it - that might
be enough.


Next step - build a water tank sitting in back next to the propane.


Now you've got me thinking of building one... But where the heck
can you get a small steam turbine alternator (12VDC 30A-50A) to run
all the accessory loads? The ones from locomotives are a bit big.

http://engineman69.home.comcast.net/.../onwheels.html

Good luck to you.

This looks like a really fun and exciting project.

Lewis.

*****

:I have had problems with the heat from the lower boiler housing
causing tire blowouts.
The housing gets red hot in places and is inly about 1/2" from the
tire."


ceramic coating
I was going to suggest aluminum but at that distance and temperature you
are dealing with more than just infrared, crossing into visible and uv.
Microwaves?













wrote:
Bruce, you seem to have a quite a bit of know-how in a lot of
different subjects, not only electricity but autos and even steam
engines. I don't know if you are serious about building a turbine
driven alternator but here is an idea about using an old turbocharger
for a steam turbine.
http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2008/1/13/214327/136

I have another question for you or the group:
I have had problems with the heat from the lower boiler housing
causing tire blowouts.
The housing gets red hot in places and is inly about 1/2" from the
tire.
there is no way that I know of to fasten insulsation to this surface
that will stand the temperature and rough handeling so I'm making a
heat shield.
I'm using a piece of 20 ga. stainless and tack welding it to the
boiler housing.
I picked stainless for it's poor heat conductivity and I'm polishing
the inside surface to reflect radiated heat.
My question is whether it would help to polish the metal on the tire
side also?
Engineman


On Aug 22, 2:03?pm, " wrote:

I built a steam powered tricycle but have been having problems going
any distance with it.
It has a combination firetube - watertube boiler and when fired hard
the water bubbles up and goes out the outlet, locking up the engine.
I am building a trap consisting of a brass vessel about 1-1/4" dia
and 3-1/2" long.
I plan to put insulation on so as not to lose too much heat.
I'm trying to decide what would be the best material for this.
It should be inexpensive, fireproof and easy to apply.
Any ideas?
Engineman

I'd give ideas from my "never done it myself" perspective, but the
photos are too small and too far away to see exactly what you did.

Do you have a real "Steam Dome" on the boiler, or a superheater
coil? (You only mentioned a feed-water preheat coil.) The steam
dome
tries to get some vertical distance from the water level so it
doesn't
work water, and the superheater coil would heat up and flash any
water
that got that far.


The dome is supposed to tap from the center, so surging water from
acceleration or braking or turns or hills stays out of the dome - if
you are tapping the main steam outlet from the side of the boiler
like
a standard VFT design (and it sure looks like that on the
'engineassembled' page) I'd expect bad working water every single
time
you made a left turn.


Try putting an upside down U loop on the main steam line to the
engine, large enough to keep the velocity down and allow the water to
separate and drain back, and insulate the heck out of it - that might
be enough.


Next step - build a water tank sitting in back next to the propane.


Now you've got me thinking of building one... But where the heck
can you get a small steam turbine alternator (12VDC 30A-50A) to run
all the accessory loads? The ones from locomotives are a bit big.

http://engineman69.home.comcast.net/.../onwheels.html

Good luck to you.

This looks like a really fun and exciting project.

Lewis.

*****

On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 19:06:04 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

Bruce, you seem to have a quite a bit of know-how in a lot of
different subjects, not only electricity but autos and even steam
engines. I don't know if you are serious about building a turbine
driven alternator but here is an idea about using an old turbocharger
for a steam turbine.
http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2008/1/13/214327/136

If I can line up all the pieces, then I might think about actually
building a steam launch - I can get a good used fiberglass dory or
catamaran style hull and a lot of the necessary marine hardware for
practically free. But I hate getting started on something I know
can't be finished, because either the parts don't exist, they're too
expensive to buy pre-made, and/or it'd cost too damn much to invent
them from scratch.

I've found scale turbogenerators for 1.4" - 1' Live Steam Railroad
engines on teh intarwebs, but they're 6V 0.5A which isn't enough for
me - But it would be perfect for a bicycle headlight and taillight.
(Though for $500 you could buy a whole lot of D batteries...)

For a steam launch you need to run the oil burner, navigation and
cabin lights, bilge pump and other auxiliaries you need roughly 12V
30A to charge the batteries.

A plain old car alternator would be perfect, now you need a constant
2000 to 4000 RPM power source to drive it - too fast for a piston
auxiliary engine unless you use a step-up geartrain, and adding
complexity is bad. And running an alternator off the prop shaft is
iffy, because the main engine stops - though having two alternators
(like two feedwater pumps) would be perfect.

I'll go look, but turbocharger turbines are built for a LOT more
flow and 50K - 80K shaft RPM, much higher than an alternator needs.
The perfect thing would be a turbine section (and the speed regulation
gear) from an old Pyle National railroad turbogenerator, toss the
generator section and couple up a Delcotron.

As to figuring it out, it's all simple machines when you strip off
the falderol. And I have friends who work with them on a regular
basis, so you pick up on the nuances.

A Vertical Firetube Boiler is more designed for marine uses, and you
don't toss them around that much. The usual placement of the steam
taps on the top edge of the drum will pick up water if you toss the
boiler around violently, unless they put internal baffles around the
boiler outlet fittings to prevent it - just like the sectioning
baffles in a tank truck keep the cargo from all rushing to the front.

The whole reason for a steam dome on a horizontal locomotive boiler
was that they DO accelerate and brake hard, go up and down hills, make
turns at speed, etc. Putting the steam dome and throttle valve in the
center highest point was to keep from working water if at all
possible.

They also have this little problem with the crownsheet being exposed
and overheated going down hills, but we don't need to go into what
happens after that...

I have another question for you or the group:
I have had problems with the heat from the lower boiler housing
causing tire blowouts.
The housing gets red hot in places and is inly about 1/2" from the
tire.
there is no way that I know of to fasten insulsation to this surface
that will stand the temperature and rough handeling so I'm making a
heat shield.
I'm using a piece of 20 ga. stainless and tack welding it to the
boiler housing.
I picked stainless for it's poor heat conductivity and I'm polishing
the inside surface to reflect radiated heat.
My question is whether it would help to polish the metal on the tire
side also?
Engineman

Myself, I'd redesign the boiler mounting bracket out a little
farther to gain another inch or so between the boiler shell and the
front tire, you need a little more space to work with. Then make your
heat shield.

And if a simple heat shield won't do it, make a sandwich heat shield
- two sheets of metal riveted at the edges with 1/2" of Kaowool or
other high temperature refractory insulation in the middle. And go
all the way down the side of the boiler to stop all the radiant heat
on that side.

The heat shield can't be in direct contact with the boiler shell, or
it will conduct the heat. You need to mount it off on brackets or
tabs, to break the conductive path. Go look at the heat shields on a
catalytic converter.

-- Bruce --

Bruce, thank you for your excellent advice but I would like to make
improvements to my vehicle with as little disassembly as possible.
I would have to alter everything to put in a steamdome.
I got the idea for the auxiliary tank from a steam powered trike I
saw at the Maker Faire in San Mateo.

If I was building a steamboat I think I'd use DC power .A DC motor can
usually be used for a generator and DC motors in all flavors can be
obtained from Surplus Center.

To get ideas for a steamboat you might want to go to this event.
(I have been going to it for 15 years)

September 26 through 28 - B & W / Sacramento Delta Great Steamboat
Meet, B & W Resort, Isleton, California.Amateur steamboat club brings
about three dozen steamboats to the resort. Usually includes a parade
and picnic lunch at Tower Park or Westgate Landing at 10 a.m. Saturday
with a swapmeet later. Free admission. Usually 30+ steamboats with
many arriving on Thursday. Contact: Phyllis Blain, telephone:
408-354-7128, email:

Here's a blog I started to create about it:

http://steam-engineman.blogspot.com/

John
.

On Aug 24, 2:31�pm, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:
On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 19:06:04 -0700 (PDT), "

wrote:
Bruce, you seem to have a quite a bit of know-how in a lot of
different subjects, not only electricity but autos and even steam
engines. I don't know if you are serious about building a turbine
driven alternator but here is an idea about using an old turbocharger
for a steam turbine.
http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2008/1/13/214327/136

� If I can line up all the pieces, then I might think about actually
building a steam launch - I can get a good used fiberglass dory or
catamaran style hull and a lot of the necessary marine hardware for
practically free. �But I hate getting started on something I know
can't be finished, because either the parts don't exist, they're too
expensive to buy pre-made, and/or it'd cost too damn much to invent
them from scratch.

� I've found scale turbogenerators for 1.4" - 1' Live Steam Railroad
engines on teh intarwebs, but they're 6V 0.5A which isn't enough for
me - But it would be perfect for a bicycle headlight and taillight.
(Though for $500 you could buy a whole lot of D batteries...)

� For a steam launch you need to run the oil burner, navigation and
cabin lights, bilge pump and other auxiliaries you need roughly 12V
30A to charge the batteries. �

� A plain old car alternator would be perfect, now you need a constant
2000 to 4000 RPM power source to drive it - too fast for a piston
auxiliary engine unless you use a step-up geartrain, and adding
complexity is bad. �And running an alternator off the prop shaft is
iffy, because the main engine stops - though having two alternators
(like two feedwater pumps) would be perfect.

� I'll go look, but turbocharger turbines are built for a LOT more
flow and 50K - 80K shaft RPM, much higher than an alternator needs.
The perfect thing would be a turbine section (and the speed regulation
gear) from an old Pyle National railroad turbogenerator, toss the
generator section and couple up a Delcotron.

� As to figuring it out, it's all simple machines when you strip off
the falderol. �And I have friends who work with them on a regular
basis, so you pick up on the nuances.

� A Vertical Firetube Boiler is more designed for marine uses, and you
don't toss them around that much. �The usual placement of the steam
taps on the top edge of the drum will pick up water if you toss the
boiler around violently, unless they put internal baffles around the
boiler outlet fittings to prevent it - just like the sectioning
baffles in a tank truck keep the cargo from all rushing to the front.

� The whole reason for a steam dome on a horizontal locomotive boiler
was that they DO accelerate and brake hard, go up and down hills, make
turns at speed, etc. �Putting the steam dome and throttle valve in the
center highest point was to keep from working water if at all
possible.

� They also have this little problem with the crownsheet being exposed
and overheated going down hills, but we don't need to go into what
happens after that...

I have another question for you or the group:
I have had problems with the heat from the lower boiler housing
causing tire blowouts.
The housing gets red hot in places and is inly about 1/2" from the
tire.
there is no way that I know of to fasten insulsation to this surface
that will stand the temperature and rough handeling so I'm making a
heat shield.
I'm using a piece of 20 ga. stainless and tack welding it to the
boiler housing.
I picked stainless for it's poor heat conductivity and I'm polishing
the inside surface to reflect radiated heat.
My question is whether it would help to polish the metal on the tire
side also?
Engineman

� Myself, I'd redesign the boiler mounting bracket out a little
farther to gain another inch or so between the boiler shell and the
front tire, you need a little more space to work with. �Then make your
heat shield.

� And if a simple heat shield won't do it, make a sandwich heat shield
- two sheets of metal riveted at the edges with 1/2" of Kaowool or
other high temperature refractory insulation in the middle. �And go
all the way down the side of the boiler to stop all the radiant heat
on that side.

� The heat shield can't be in direct contact with the boiler shell, or
it will conduct the heat. �You need to mount it off on brackets or
tabs, to break the conductive path. �Go look at the heat shields on a
catalytic converter.

� -- Bruce --

On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 14:31:35 -0700, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

snip

For a steam launch you need to run the oil burner, navigation and
cabin lights, bilge pump and other auxiliaries you need roughly 12V
30A to charge the batteries.

A plain old car alternator would be perfect, now you need a constant
2000 to 4000 RPM power source to drive it - too fast for a piston
auxiliary engine unless you use a step-up geartrain, and adding
complexity is bad. And running an alternator off the prop shaft is
iffy, because the main engine stops - though having two alternators
(like two feedwater pumps) would be perfect.

snip

Stuart Sirius engine possibly.

http://www.stuartmodels.com/inprod_d...ting/mod_id/59

Although it doesn't feature multiple expansion, so you might still benefit
from, say a turbine driven boiler FD fan driven from the exhaust steam.


Mark Rand
RTFM