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On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 11:34:38 -0700 (PDT), Millwright Ron
wrote: Try this philosophy: I spend it ... Where I make it ... Millwright Ron www.unionmillwright.com So what do you buy in a septic tank??? Gunner "[L]iberals are afraid to state what they truly believe in, for to do so would result in even less votes than they currently receive. Their methodology is to lie about their real agenda in the hopes of regaining power, at which point they will do whatever they damn well please. The problem is they have concealed and obfuscated for so long that, as a group, they themselves are no longer sure of their goals. They are a collection of wild-eyed splinter groups, all holding a grab-bag of dreams and wishes. Some want a Socialist, secular-humanist state, others the repeal of the Second Amendment. Some want same sex/different species marriage, others want voting rights for trees, fish, coal and bugs. Some want cradle to grave care and complete subservience to the government nanny state, others want a culture that walks in lockstep and speaks only with intonations of political correctness. I view the American liberals in much the same way I view the competing factions of Islamic fundamentalists. The latter hate each other to the core, and only join forces to attack the US or Israel. The former hate themselves to the core, and only join forces to attack George Bush and conservatives." --Ron Marr |
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Gunner Asch wrote: On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 11:34:38 -0700 (PDT), Millwright Ron wrote: Try this philosophy: I spend it ... Where I make it ... Millwright Ron www.unionmillwright.com So what do you buy in a septic tank??? That's where he got his union card. OTOH, he's too stupid to know there are union newsgroups. -- aioe.org is home to cowards and terrorists Add this line to your news proxy nfilter.dat file * drop Path:*aioe.org!not-for-mail to drop all aioe.org traffic. http://improve-usenet.org/index.html Use any search engine other than Google till they stop polluting USENET with porn and junk commercial SPAM |
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On Apr 12, 6:37*pm, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote: Gunner Asch wrote: On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 11:34:38 -0700 (PDT), Millwright Ron wrote: Try this philosophy: I spend it ... Where I make it ... Millwright Ron www.unionmillwright.com So what do you buy in a septic tank??? * *That's where he got his union card. *OTOH, he's too stupid to know there are union newsgroups. * -- aioe.org is home to cowards and terrorists Add this line to your news proxy nfilter.dat file * drop Path:*aioe.org!not-for-mail to drop all aioe.org traffic. http://improve-usenet.org/index.html Use any search engine other than Google till they stop polluting USENET with porn and junk commercial SPAm So terrell the little boy lover speaks again. |
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Millwright Ron wrote:
I spend it ... Where I make it ... St. Peter hear you calling me by I can't go, I owe my soul to the company store.... |
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On Apr 12, 6:37*pm, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote: Gunner Asch wrote: On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 11:34:38 -0700 (PDT), Millwright Ron wrote: Try this philosophy: I spend it ... Where I make it ... Millwright Ron www.unionmillwright.com So what do you buy in a septic tank??? Terrell Turds * *That's where he got his union card. *OTOH, he's too stupid to know there are union newsgroups. * -- aioe.org is home to cowards and terrorists Add this line to your news proxy nfilter.dat file * drop Path:*aioe.org!not-for-mail to drop all aioe.org traffic. http://improve-usenet.org/index.html Use any search engine other than Google till they stop polluting USENET with porn and junk commercial SPAM |
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On Apr 12, 5:40*pm, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 11:34:38 -0700 (PDT), Millwright Ron wrote: Try this philosophy: I spend it ... Where I make it ... Millwright Ron www.unionmillwright.com So what do you buy in a septic tank??? Gunner "[L]iberals are afraid to state what they truly believe in, for to do so would result in even less votes than they currently receive. Their methodology is to lie about their real agenda in the hopes of regaining power, at which point they will do whatever they damn well please. The problem is they have concealed and obfuscated for so long that, as a group, they themselves are no longer sure of their goals. They are a collection of wild-eyed splinter groups, all holding a grab-bag of dreams and wishes. Some want a Socialist, secular-humanist state, others the repeal of the Second Amendment. Some want same sex/different species marriage, others want voting rights for trees, fish, coal and bugs. Some want cradle to grave care and complete subservience to the government nanny state, others want a culture that walks in lockstep and speaks only with intonations of political correctness. I view the American liberals in much the same way I view the competing factions of Islamic fundamentalists. The latter hate each other to the core, and only join forces to attack the US or Israel. The former hate themselves to the core, and only join forces to attack George Bush and conservatives." --Ron So you do not believe in supporting your local economy????? |
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Wes wrote: Millwright Ron wrote: I spend it ... Where I make it ... St. Peter hear you calling me by I can't go, I owe my soul to the company store.... Ron wants to meet up with all his union buddies when he dies, so he'll have to go to hell for the reunion. That is convenient for him, too, because the head offices for 'the company store' is there. -- aioe.org is home to cowards and terrorists Add this line to your news proxy nfilter.dat file * drop Path:*aioe.org!not-for-mail to drop all aioe.org traffic. http://improve-usenet.org/index.html Use any search engine other than Google till they stop polluting USENET with porn and junk commercial SPAM |
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" Try this philosophy: I spend it ... Where I make it ... Millwright Ron www.unionmillwright.com So what do you buy in a septic tank??? Gunner So you do not believe in supporting your local economy????? I don't think he said that at all... ....I think he's just a little more than a little tired of your constant dribbling/foaming at the mouth. As to your original statement about spending it where you make it, I trust that means that you'll be giving up your computer and your TV and toaster and, well, you get the point. Or maybe you don't...I'll spell it out for you... THEY DON'T MAKE THEM HERE ANYMORE Why? Among other things, the unions priced themselves out of jobs by demanding more for the job than it was worth. Mike |
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"The Davenport's" wrote in message ... " Try this philosophy: I spend it ... Where I make it ... Millwright Ron www.unionmillwright.com So what do you buy in a septic tank??? Gunner So you do not believe in supporting your local economy????? I don't think he said that at all... ...I think he's just a little more than a little tired of your constant dribbling/foaming at the mouth. As to your original statement about spending it where you make it, I trust that means that you'll be giving up your computer and your TV and toaster and, well, you get the point. Or maybe you don't...I'll spell it out for you... THEY DON'T MAKE THEM HERE ANYMORE Why? Among other things, the unions priced themselves out of jobs by demanding more for the job than it was worth. Mike And what's it worth, Mike? The Chinese charge $0.80/hour. Is that what it's worth? -- Ed Huntress |
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On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 08:53:11 -0700 (PDT), Millwright Ron
wrote: On Apr 12, 6:37*pm, "Michael A. Terrell" wrote: Gunner Asch wrote: On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 11:34:38 -0700 (PDT), Millwright Ron wrote: Try this philosophy: I spend it ... Where I make it ... Millwright Ron www.unionmillwright.com So what do you buy in a septic tank??? Terrell Turds So what are you doing swimming in Terrel Turds? Dont have enough sense to get out of the "water"? Gunner * *That's where he got his union card. *OTOH, he's too stupid to know there are union newsgroups. * -- aioe.org is home to cowards and terrorists Add this line to your news proxy nfilter.dat file * drop Path:*aioe.org!not-for-mail to drop all aioe.org traffic. http://improve-usenet.org/index.html Use any search engine other than Google till they stop polluting USENET with porn and junk commercial SPAM "[L]iberals are afraid to state what they truly believe in, for to do so would result in even less votes than they currently receive. Their methodology is to lie about their real agenda in the hopes of regaining power, at which point they will do whatever they damn well please. The problem is they have concealed and obfuscated for so long that, as a group, they themselves are no longer sure of their goals. They are a collection of wild-eyed splinter groups, all holding a grab-bag of dreams and wishes. Some want a Socialist, secular-humanist state, others the repeal of the Second Amendment. Some want same sex/different species marriage, others want voting rights for trees, fish, coal and bugs. Some want cradle to grave care and complete subservience to the government nanny state, others want a culture that walks in lockstep and speaks only with intonations of political correctness. I view the American liberals in much the same way I view the competing factions of Islamic fundamentalists. The latter hate each other to the core, and only join forces to attack the US or Israel. The former hate themselves to the core, and only join forces to attack George Bush and conservatives." --Ron Marr |
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On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 08:56:28 -0700 (PDT), Millwright Ron
wrote: On Apr 12, 5:40*pm, Gunner Asch wrote: On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 11:34:38 -0700 (PDT), Millwright Ron wrote: Try this philosophy: I spend it ... Where I make it ... Millwright Ron www.unionmillwright.com So what do you buy in a septic tank??? Gunner "[L]iberals are afraid to state what they truly believe in, for to do so would result in even less votes than they currently receive. Their methodology is to lie about their real agenda in the hopes of regaining power, at which point they will do whatever they damn well please. The problem is they have concealed and obfuscated for so long that, as a group, they themselves are no longer sure of their goals. They are a collection of wild-eyed splinter groups, all holding a grab-bag of dreams and wishes. Some want a Socialist, secular-humanist state, others the repeal of the Second Amendment. Some want same sex/different species marriage, others want voting rights for trees, fish, coal and bugs. Some want cradle to grave care and complete subservience to the government nanny state, others want a culture that walks in lockstep and speaks only with intonations of political correctness. I view the American liberals in much the same way I view the competing factions of Islamic fundamentalists. The latter hate each other to the core, and only join forces to attack the US or Israel. The former hate themselves to the core, and only join forces to attack George Bush and conservatives." --Ron So you do not believe in supporting your local economy????? Of course I do, Ronron. I buy as much stuff from the local stores as possible and avoid the big box stores when reasonable. Of course, none of them are Union, so that makes it a twofer. Gunner "[L]iberals are afraid to state what they truly believe in, for to do so would result in even less votes than they currently receive. Their methodology is to lie about their real agenda in the hopes of regaining power, at which point they will do whatever they damn well please. The problem is they have concealed and obfuscated for so long that, as a group, they themselves are no longer sure of their goals. They are a collection of wild-eyed splinter groups, all holding a grab-bag of dreams and wishes. Some want a Socialist, secular-humanist state, others the repeal of the Second Amendment. Some want same sex/different species marriage, others want voting rights for trees, fish, coal and bugs. Some want cradle to grave care and complete subservience to the government nanny state, others want a culture that walks in lockstep and speaks only with intonations of political correctness. I view the American liberals in much the same way I view the competing factions of Islamic fundamentalists. The latter hate each other to the core, and only join forces to attack the US or Israel. The former hate themselves to the core, and only join forces to attack George Bush and conservatives." --Ron Marr |
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Gunner Asch wrote: On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 08:53:11 -0700 (PDT), Millwright Ron wrote: Terrell Turds So what are you doing swimming in Terrell Turds? Dont have enough sense to get out of the "water"? They must remind him of all the turds he worked with, in those closed shops. Once a union turd, always a union turd. :( -- aioe.org is home to cowards and terrorists Add this line to your news proxy nfilter.dat file * drop Path:*aioe.org!not-for-mail to drop all aioe.org traffic. http://improve-usenet.org/index.html Use any search engine other than Google till they stop polluting USENET with porn and junk commercial SPAM |
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Millwright Ron wrote:
So terrell the little boy lover speaks again. The repartee of a union slug... |
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" Try this philosophy:
I spend it ... Where I make it ... Millwright Ron www.unionmillwright.com So what do you buy in a septic tank??? Gunner So you do not believe in supporting your local economy????? I don't think he said that at all... ...I think he's just a little more than a little tired of your constant dribbling/foaming at the mouth. As to your original statement about spending it where you make it, I trust that means that you'll be giving up your computer and your TV and toaster and, well, you get the point. Or maybe you don't...I'll spell it out for you... THEY DON'T MAKE THEM HERE ANYMORE Why? Among other things, the unions priced themselves out of jobs by demanding more for the job than it was worth. Mike And what's it worth, Mike? The Chinese charge $0.80/hour. Is that what it's worth? -- Ed Huntress I'm not trying to say that the jobs should only be worth $0.80 an hour. I do believe that the $35.00 PLUS to start that they get at the local GM plant to bolt a freaking bumper on a truck is just a TAD bit out of line. Can you say that the craft that I've worked at learning for the last 35 years or so is worth less than what it takes to drive a few bolts? GM, Ford and the UAW seem to think so. Mike |
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"Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... snip Among other things, the unions priced themselves out of jobs by demanding more for the job than it was worth. Mike And what's it worth, Mike? The Chinese charge $0.80/hour. Is that what it's worth? -- Ed Huntress The basic three factors in the cost of a good or service a Price, quality and service. If the good or service is of the correct quality, meaning that is fulfills the requirements, and the service also is acceptable then the price becomes the determining factor. If the Chinese place a good in the market that fulfills the market's need, the "worth" of that good is exactly what the market pays for it. But, that doesn't translate to setting the cost of labor. You can't make that claim Ed. What sets the cost of the $.80/hr. labor is that's what the market for labor in China is in that region, at that time. |
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"Tom Gardner" wrote in message ... "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... snip Among other things, the unions priced themselves out of jobs by demanding more for the job than it was worth. Mike And what's it worth, Mike? The Chinese charge $0.80/hour. Is that what it's worth? -- Ed Huntress The basic three factors in the cost of a good or service a Price, quality and service. If the good or service is of the correct quality, meaning that is fulfills the requirements, and the service also is acceptable then the price becomes the determining factor. If the Chinese place a good in the market that fulfills the market's need, the "worth" of that good is exactly what the market pays for it. But, that doesn't translate to setting the cost of labor. You can't make that claim Ed. What sets the cost of the $.80/hr. labor is that's what the market for labor in China is in that region, at that time. But that still leaves open the question of what the "correct" wage is for the US, the one the unions should be asking for so as to not "price themselves out of a job." How about it, Tom? What should labor be asking for? Maybe, say, three times what they make in China? That ought to cover the transportation costs and leave a little margin. Should labor be asking for $2.40/hour? That may be a little high, though. Why should consumers in the US pay more than they can buy Chinese goods for? What's the wage that US unions should be asking for, to avoid pricing themselves out of competition with China? Do you have a "correct" wage in mind? -- Ed Huntress |
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"The Davenport's" wrote in message ... " Try this philosophy: I spend it ... Where I make it ... Millwright Ron www.unionmillwright.com So what do you buy in a septic tank??? Gunner So you do not believe in supporting your local economy????? I don't think he said that at all... ...I think he's just a little more than a little tired of your constant dribbling/foaming at the mouth. As to your original statement about spending it where you make it, I trust that means that you'll be giving up your computer and your TV and toaster and, well, you get the point. Or maybe you don't...I'll spell it out for you... THEY DON'T MAKE THEM HERE ANYMORE Why? Among other things, the unions priced themselves out of jobs by demanding more for the job than it was worth. Mike And what's it worth, Mike? The Chinese charge $0.80/hour. Is that what it's worth? -- Ed Huntress I'm not trying to say that the jobs should only be worth $0.80 an hour. I do believe that the $35.00 PLUS to start that they get at the local GM plant to bolt a freaking bumper on a truck is just a TAD bit out of line. Can you say that the craft that I've worked at learning for the last 35 years or so is worth less than what it takes to drive a few bolts? GM, Ford and the UAW seem to think so. Mike So, what's the correct wage for them, Mike? How much can they be paid so they won't be "pricing themselves out of a job," so that things will be made here again instead of in China? -- Ed Huntress |
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"Ed Huntress" wrote:
"The Davenport's" wrote: I do believe that the $35.00 PLUS to start that they get at the local GM plant to bolt a freaking bumper on a truck is just a TAD bit out of line. Can you say that the craft that I've worked at learning for the last 35 years or so is worth less than what it takes to drive a few bolts? GM, Ford and the UAW seem to think so. Mike So, what's the correct wage for them, Mike? How much can they be paid so they won't be "pricing themselves out of a job," so that things will be made here again instead of in China? Minimum wage plus maybe another buck or two depending upon the region. After 90 days, if they are doing well, give 'em an additional buck or two raise. After six months, a co-pay dental plan. After a year, another raise, with more benefits; additional raises would be dependent upon additional skill sets/ abilities learned. Jon |
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"Jon Danniken" wrote in message ... "Ed Huntress" wrote: "The Davenport's" wrote: I do believe that the $35.00 PLUS to start that they get at the local GM plant to bolt a freaking bumper on a truck is just a TAD bit out of line. Can you say that the craft that I've worked at learning for the last 35 years or so is worth less than what it takes to drive a few bolts? GM, Ford and the UAW seem to think so. Mike So, what's the correct wage for them, Mike? How much can they be paid so they won't be "pricing themselves out of a job," so that things will be made here again instead of in China? Minimum wage plus maybe another buck or two depending upon the region. After 90 days, if they are doing well, give 'em an additional buck or two raise. After six months, a co-pay dental plan. After a year, another raise, with more benefits; additional raises would be dependent upon additional skill sets/ abilities learned. Jon And how would that keep from "pricing them out of a job," against foreign low-wage competition, Jon? After NAFTA, a lot of plants moved to Mexico, where they were (at the time) paying $1.10/hour. It's a bit higher than that now ($1.70/hour?). And as China opened up, a fairly long list of US plants that had moved to Mexico picked up and moved to China. The Mexicans had "priced themselves out of a job" at $1.70/hour. It looks like those jobs were going away no matter what wages were in the US. In other words, wages had little to do with it. The only question was whether the unions were going to lay down and go quietly, like some people seem to prefer, or whether they would put up a fight. After years of reporting on it and thinking about it, my conclusion is that it's just another case of scapegoating to try to explain why globalization has gutted a lot of semi-skilled and even highly skilled employment in the US and other major economies. And the scapegoaters seem to lack an ability to do a little basic arithmetic. -- Ed Huntress |
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"Ed Huntress" wrote:
And how would that keep from "pricing them out of a job," against foreign low-wage competition, Jon? After NAFTA, a lot of plants moved to Mexico, where they were (at the time) paying $1.10/hour. It's a bit higher than that now ($1.70/hour?). And as China opened up, a fairly long list of US plants that had moved to Mexico picked up and moved to China. The Mexicans had "priced themselves out of a job" at $1.70/hour. Somehow I think China is going to price themselves out of a job and some work will flow back to Mexico. Maybe we well get a few scraps out of it. Wes |
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"Wes" wrote in message ... "Ed Huntress" wrote: And how would that keep from "pricing them out of a job," against foreign low-wage competition, Jon? After NAFTA, a lot of plants moved to Mexico, where they were (at the time) paying $1.10/hour. It's a bit higher than that now ($1.70/hour?). And as China opened up, a fairly long list of US plants that had moved to Mexico picked up and moved to China. The Mexicans had "priced themselves out of a job" at $1.70/hour. Somehow I think China is going to price themselves out of a job and some work will flow back to Mexico. Maybe we well get a few scraps out of it. Wes Eventually, that may happen. Although I don't think it's Mexico that the work will go to. More likely it will be Africa, I'm guessing. The problem with the theories about global trade is that they make several assumptions that don't work out as the world and technology evolve, and that they ignore the fact that, in the long run, we're all dead. -- Ed Huntress |
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On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 09:34:29 -0400, Wes wrote:
"Ed Huntress" wrote: And how would that keep from "pricing them out of a job," against foreign low-wage competition, Jon? After NAFTA, a lot of plants moved to Mexico, where they were (at the time) paying $1.10/hour. It's a bit higher than that now ($1.70/hour?). And as China opened up, a fairly long list of US plants that had moved to Mexico picked up and moved to China. The Mexicans had "priced themselves out of a job" at $1.70/hour. Somehow I think China is going to price themselves out of a job and some work will flow back to Mexico. Maybe we well get a few scraps out of it. Wes They have a billion or so folks to employ who would like to leave the countryside behind-- it might take a while-- and it depends on whether they *want* to keep doing that sort of work rather than graduate to higher level stuff. Their domestic market is so big and lucrative that already it's drawing a lot of the talent from export-oriented industries. There are a LOT of places (80 different countries by PPP GDP) with cheaper labor than China- Vietnam, Bangladesh, India etc.. and some with substantial populations, but the infrastrucure (and maybe the culture) is not there yet to support many types of manufacturing. Best regards, Spehro Pefhany -- "it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com |
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"Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "Tom Gardner" wrote in message ... "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... snip Among other things, the unions priced themselves out of jobs by demanding more for the job than it was worth. Mike And what's it worth, Mike? The Chinese charge $0.80/hour. Is that what it's worth? -- Ed Huntress The basic three factors in the cost of a good or service a Price, quality and service. If the good or service is of the correct quality, meaning that is fulfills the requirements, and the service also is acceptable then the price becomes the determining factor. If the Chinese place a good in the market that fulfills the market's need, the "worth" of that good is exactly what the market pays for it. But, that doesn't translate to setting the cost of labor. You can't make that claim Ed. What sets the cost of the $.80/hr. labor is that's what the market for labor in China is in that region, at that time. But that still leaves open the question of what the "correct" wage is for the US, the one the unions should be asking for so as to not "price themselves out of a job." How about it, Tom? What should labor be asking for? Maybe, say, three times what they make in China? That ought to cover the transportation costs and leave a little margin. Should labor be asking for $2.40/hour? That may be a little high, though. Why should consumers in the US pay more than they can buy Chinese goods for? What's the wage that US unions should be asking for, to avoid pricing themselves out of competition with China? Do you have a "correct" wage in mind? -- Ed Huntress I think the labor wage should be whatever the market will bear. We have huge advantages in automation, quality, service and that "Made in USA" sticker still means a lot. I'd like to pay higher wages than I do now, and my wages are better than most in the industry. The "correct" wage is one that the workers can prosper the most while the company can prosper too. The union mentality is: "Lets cut the goose open and get ALL the gold." |
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So you do not believe in supporting your local economy?????
I don't think he said that at all... ...I think he's just a little more than a little tired of your constant dribbling/foaming at the mouth. As to your original statement about spending it where you make it, I trust that means that you'll be giving up your computer and your TV and toaster and, well, you get the point. Or maybe you don't...I'll spell it out for you... THEY DON'T MAKE THEM HERE ANYMORE Why? Among other things, the unions priced themselves out of jobs by demanding more for the job than it was worth. Mike And what's it worth, Mike? The Chinese charge $0.80/hour. Is that what it's worth? -- Ed Huntress I'm not trying to say that the jobs should only be worth $0.80 an hour. I do believe that the $35.00 PLUS to start that they get at the local GM plant to bolt a freaking bumper on a truck is just a TAD bit out of line. Can you say that the craft that I've worked at learning for the last 35 years or so is worth less than what it takes to drive a few bolts? GM, Ford and the UAW seem to think so. Mike So, what's the correct wage for them, Mike? How much can they be paid so they won't be "pricing themselves out of a job," so that things will be made here again instead of in China? -- Ed Huntress Ed, I think that you're still missing my point, and the point is that I do NOT believe that someone that bolts the bumper on a truck...and actually, just half the bumper because someone on the other side of the line does the other side...should be paid twice the wages that a skilled tradesman/woman gets paid. The line worker not only doesn't make decisions, they CAN'T because that isn't the way GM/Ford/whoever works. Light bulb burns out on your work station/desk...call the repair shop, because if you screw in your own light bulb, you will be given time off....do it again, you may get fired...which seems to be the only way anyone can be fired there. I am NOT saying that they should be paid peanuts....it's a boring ass job, for the most part, and it isn't the best working conditions, but I've worked in worse. No, I don't work there, nor have I ever worked there...I do, however, spend a lot of time there doing repairs to machinery that their "skilled trades department" can't figure out. Mike |
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"Tom Gardner" wrote in message . .. "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "Tom Gardner" wrote in message ... "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... snip Among other things, the unions priced themselves out of jobs by demanding more for the job than it was worth. Mike And what's it worth, Mike? The Chinese charge $0.80/hour. Is that what it's worth? -- Ed Huntress The basic three factors in the cost of a good or service a Price, quality and service. If the good or service is of the correct quality, meaning that is fulfills the requirements, and the service also is acceptable then the price becomes the determining factor. If the Chinese place a good in the market that fulfills the market's need, the "worth" of that good is exactly what the market pays for it. But, that doesn't translate to setting the cost of labor. You can't make that claim Ed. What sets the cost of the $.80/hr. labor is that's what the market for labor in China is in that region, at that time. But that still leaves open the question of what the "correct" wage is for the US, the one the unions should be asking for so as to not "price themselves out of a job." How about it, Tom? What should labor be asking for? Maybe, say, three times what they make in China? That ought to cover the transportation costs and leave a little margin. Should labor be asking for $2.40/hour? That may be a little high, though. Why should consumers in the US pay more than they can buy Chinese goods for? What's the wage that US unions should be asking for, to avoid pricing themselves out of competition with China? Do you have a "correct" wage in mind? -- Ed Huntress I think the labor wage should be whatever the market will bear. We have huge advantages in automation, quality, service and that "Made in USA" sticker still means a lot. I'd like to pay higher wages than I do now, and my wages are better than most in the industry. The "correct" wage is one that the workers can prosper the most while the company can prosper too. The union mentality is: "Lets cut the goose open and get ALL the gold." I think that the union mentality, for around 150 years, was this: "We know you'll screw us as much as you can, and nobody knows how little income you'll work for. So we'll push you until you can't be pushed anymore...because, for 60 or 70 years (from 1870 to 1930), that's exactly what you did to us. And you'd do it again starting tomorrow if you could get away with it." It worked out a fairly stable equilibrium until we faced high volumes of dirt-cheap imported products. Now the manufacturers who can't move have no way to prosper, if they're in competition with some of those dirt-cheap imported products. But they'll give it a try. They'll see if they can squeeze it out of labor. But they really can't, except at the margins, because nobody can live on what they can now afford to pay. Surprise; it turned out that the golden goose is a whore. She followed the companies that were able to move their manufacturing to the dirt-cheap-labor countries. They're still making a bundle, the goose is laying her eggs for them, and we've gone from being a country with the biggest middle class and the lowest income schisms in modern history to one of the worst in the developed world. And everyone is looking for a scapegoat, because they've been blinded by the minions of wealth who feed them a half-assed economic theory we imported from Austria, telling them they're really better off, and any pain they perceive is either an illusion or somebody else's fault. Hey, you gotta' squeeze somebody or you'll go out of business, right? And all the nice guys who want to pay their employees more are wringing their hands, because they've bought the bill of goods the rich guys are feeding them, and there's just nothing else they can do. Maybe they'll pipe in some violin music. -- Ed Huntress |
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"The Davenport's" wrote in message ... So you do not believe in supporting your local economy????? I don't think he said that at all... ...I think he's just a little more than a little tired of your constant dribbling/foaming at the mouth. As to your original statement about spending it where you make it, I trust that means that you'll be giving up your computer and your TV and toaster and, well, you get the point. Or maybe you don't...I'll spell it out for you... THEY DON'T MAKE THEM HERE ANYMORE Why? Among other things, the unions priced themselves out of jobs by demanding more for the job than it was worth. Mike And what's it worth, Mike? The Chinese charge $0.80/hour. Is that what it's worth? -- Ed Huntress I'm not trying to say that the jobs should only be worth $0.80 an hour. I do believe that the $35.00 PLUS to start that they get at the local GM plant to bolt a freaking bumper on a truck is just a TAD bit out of line. Can you say that the craft that I've worked at learning for the last 35 years or so is worth less than what it takes to drive a few bolts? GM, Ford and the UAW seem to think so. Mike So, what's the correct wage for them, Mike? How much can they be paid so they won't be "pricing themselves out of a job," so that things will be made here again instead of in China? -- Ed Huntress Ed, I think that you're still missing my point, and the point is that I do NOT believe that someone that bolts the bumper on a truck...and actually, just half the bumper because someone on the other side of the line does the other side...should be paid twice the wages that a skilled tradesman/woman gets paid. Yeah, you said that, that your sense of propriety and fairness apparently has been offended, and that's somehow tied into what labor has to do to keep their jobs from going overseas. And I'm asking you how much they *should* be paid, so that they don't price themselves out of a job, and no one has given me an answer that actually will save those jobs. How much should it be? The line worker not only doesn't make decisions, they CAN'T because that isn't the way GM/Ford/whoever works. Light bulb burns out on your work station/desk...call the repair shop, because if you screw in your own light bulb, you will be given time off....do it again, you may get fired...which seems to be the only way anyone can be fired there. I am NOT saying that they should be paid peanuts....it's a boring ass job, for the most part, and it isn't the best working conditions, but I've worked in worse. No, I don't work there, nor have I ever worked there...I do, however, spend a lot of time there doing repairs to machinery that their "skilled trades department" can't figure out. All very nice, Mike. Now, I'll ask again: what should they be paid so they don't price themselves out of the globalized market? -- Ed Huntress |
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So, what's the correct wage for them, Mike? How much can they be paid so
they won't be "pricing themselves out of a job," so that things will be made here again instead of in China? -- Ed Huntress Ed, I think that you're still missing my point, and the point is that I do NOT believe that someone that bolts the bumper on a truck...and actually, just half the bumper because someone on the other side of the line does the other side...should be paid twice the wages that a skilled tradesman/woman gets paid. Yeah, you said that, that your sense of propriety and fairness apparently has been offended, and that's somehow tied into what labor has to do to keep their jobs from going overseas. And I'm asking you how much they *should* be paid, so that they don't price themselves out of a job, and no one has given me an answer that actually will save those jobs. How much should it be? OK...maybe I was wrong...you didn't miss my point, you seem to be ignoring it... OK...How much should the jobs be worth? How does 2/3 the prevailing wages for skilled trades in the area? So here in south central Wisconsin, that would put the bumper-bolter at making a little under $13.50usd The line worker not only doesn't make decisions, they CAN'T because that isn't the way GM/Ford/whoever works. Light bulb burns out on your work station/desk...call the repair shop, because if you screw in your own light bulb, you will be given time off....do it again, you may get fired...which seems to be the only way anyone can be fired there. I am NOT saying that they should be paid peanuts....it's a boring ass job, for the most part, and it isn't the best working conditions, but I've worked in worse. No, I don't work there, nor have I ever worked there...I do, however, spend a lot of time there doing repairs to machinery that their "skilled trades department" can't figure out. All very nice, Mike. Now, I'll ask again: what should they be paid so they don't price themselves out of the globalized market? -- Ed Huntress And can you honestly say that over the top wage demands by unions had NO impact on the jobs going away? I wasn't trying to say that that was the only reason, but it was a contributing factor, along with the work rules and the owners/stockholders being greedy. And let us not forget the American people, bless their little hearts, for thinking that saving a few bucks on that color TV wasn't going to have any effect on the world...right up until you couldn't find an American made TV anymore. Mike |
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The Davenport's wrote:
So, what's the correct wage for them, Mike? How much can they be paid so they won't be "pricing themselves out of a job," so that things will be made here again instead of in China? -- Ed Huntress All very nice, Mike. Now, I'll ask again: what should they be paid so they don't price themselves out of the globalized market? -- Ed Huntress And can you honestly say that over the top wage demands by unions had NO impact on the jobs going away? No, not really. The only way to compete with chinese labor is to work for what Chjinese laborers will work for, all things else being even. I wasn't trying to say that that was the only reason, but it was a contributing factor, along with the work rules and the owners/stockholders being greedy. You are confusing greed with what you practice in your every day life and call common sense. And let us not forget the American people, bless their little hearts, for thinking that saving a few bucks on that color TV wasn't going to have any effect on the world...right up until you couldn't find an American made TV anymore. You two can have a sensible conversation about this only when you are willing to talk about value added by labor and acceptable living standards. The question that needs to be asked and answered is this one: What would an auto workers job have to look like to be able to pay him enough to have a decent standard of living. Lowering his or her wage to reflect the value they currently add is meaningless. There is an answer to that question, however, and the answer is - whatever the cheapest labor rate is in the world. Everything else is just hoo haa. -- John R. Carroll www.machiningsolution.com |
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"The Davenport's" wrote in message ... So, what's the correct wage for them, Mike? How much can they be paid so they won't be "pricing themselves out of a job," so that things will be made here again instead of in China? -- Ed Huntress Ed, I think that you're still missing my point, and the point is that I do NOT believe that someone that bolts the bumper on a truck...and actually, just half the bumper because someone on the other side of the line does the other side...should be paid twice the wages that a skilled tradesman/woman gets paid. Yeah, you said that, that your sense of propriety and fairness apparently has been offended, and that's somehow tied into what labor has to do to keep their jobs from going overseas. And I'm asking you how much they *should* be paid, so that they don't price themselves out of a job, and no one has given me an answer that actually will save those jobs. How much should it be? OK...maybe I was wrong...you didn't miss my point, you seem to be ignoring it... I'm not ignoring it. I'm waiting for you to relate it to those jobs that have been lost in manufacturing. You just think the unions are demanding too much. So far you haven't made any connection to lost jobs. I'm sure you know by now that *my* point is that there is hardly any connection at all. We'll see how far we get with this. OK...How much should the jobs be worth? How does 2/3 the prevailing wages for skilled trades in the area? So here in south central Wisconsin, that would put the bumper-bolter at making a little under $13.50usd That's great. Now, how does he compete with a Chinese bumper-bolter making less than $1.00/hour? Short answer: He doesn't. Wait till the Chinese start making cars that are acceptable to Western customers. Then all hell will break loose. snip All very nice, Mike. Now, I'll ask again: what should they be paid so they don't price themselves out of the globalized market? -- Ed Huntress And can you honestly say that over the top wage demands by unions had NO impact on the jobs going away? Only at the margins. That isn't the dynamic that's producing the big shift in manufacturing to low-wage countries, nor does it have more than a trivial effect on either jobs in the US or our balance of trade. Even under-the-top wages, such as the $13.50 you suggest, are so far removed from the global market wage that no one will even notice -- except for the US bumper-bolter who is now making 2/3 of what he was. The point is that you're not keeping your eye on the economic and business dynamics. You can't fix a $25 wage disparity with a $10 solution, if the big players are free to go where they want to. I wasn't trying to say that that was the only reason, but it was a contributing factor, along with the work rules and the owners/stockholders being greedy. If you spend six months with the numbers, 8 hours/day, as I did four years ago when I was writing about trade with China, you'll soon realize that all that is so much noise. Follow the wages. And don't be misled by the fact that direct labor is a tiny fraction of manufacturing cost. The big issue is *embedded* labor costs, which means that the guy shoveling coal makes $0.80/hour, as does the truck driver, the steelworker, the guy who builds the plants, and everyone else. Costs in China are a tiny fraction of ours across the board. Trimming wages for assembly line workers in the US isn't going to cut it. And let us not forget the American people, bless their little hearts, for thinking that saving a few bucks on that color TV wasn't going to have any effect on the world...right up until you couldn't find an American made TV anymore. So, what are they supposed to do? Buy a more expensive TV so you can buy a new bass boat? Remember, world trade has been sold and ingrained deep into our psyche. Buying the best value is what everyone is *supposed* to do. According to current conservative economic theory, national chauvinism in trade matters is bad ju-ju. Rather than go around in circles, I'll try to put a cap on my point of view. We're committing suicide for the sake of some half-baked, ideological theories about business and trade. We're too far gone to do anything about it. Either it will work out as Milton Friedman said -- the value of the dollar will drop so much that we'll have economic parity with China, if we don't collapse first -- or someone (probably the Europeans) will decide we can't keep sacrificing ourselves on the altar of theory and will come up with workable constraints. No one I've heard of has come up with anything else. Meantime, don't waste your time looking for scapegoats. Unions aren't it. They have practically nothing to do with it. -- Ed Huntress |
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Ed Huntress wrote:
"The Davenport's" wrote in message ... So, what's the correct wage for them, Mike? How much can they be paid so they won't be "pricing themselves out of a job," so that things will be made here again instead of in China? -- Ed Huntress Ed, I think that you're still missing my point, and the point is that I do NOT believe that someone that bolts the bumper on a truck...and actually, just half the bumper because someone on the other side of the line does the other side...should be paid twice the wages that a skilled tradesman/woman gets paid. Yeah, you said that, that your sense of propriety and fairness apparently has been offended, and that's somehow tied into what labor has to do to keep their jobs from going overseas. And I'm asking you how much they *should* be paid, so that they don't price themselves out of a job, and no one has given me an answer that actually will save those jobs. How much should it be? OK...maybe I was wrong...you didn't miss my point, you seem to be ignoring it... I'm not ignoring it. Sure you are. Either that or you are unwilling to state the obvious. -- John R. Carroll www.machiningsolution.com |
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"John R. Carroll" wrote in message t... Ed Huntress wrote: "The Davenport's" wrote in message ... So, what's the correct wage for them, Mike? How much can they be paid so they won't be "pricing themselves out of a job," so that things will be made here again instead of in China? -- Ed Huntress Ed, I think that you're still missing my point, and the point is that I do NOT believe that someone that bolts the bumper on a truck...and actually, just half the bumper because someone on the other side of the line does the other side...should be paid twice the wages that a skilled tradesman/woman gets paid. Yeah, you said that, that your sense of propriety and fairness apparently has been offended, and that's somehow tied into what labor has to do to keep their jobs from going overseas. And I'm asking you how much they *should* be paid, so that they don't price themselves out of a job, and no one has given me an answer that actually will save those jobs. How much should it be? OK...maybe I was wrong...you didn't miss my point, you seem to be ignoring it... I'm not ignoring it. Sure you are. Either that or you are unwilling to state the obvious. The obvious is that unions and high wages are the scapegoat for a trade imbalance that can't be solved by the solutions that several here have proposed. The problem is structural -- two vastly disparate economies pretending that they can conduct balanced trade if everyone would only "play fair." Nonsense. -- Ed Huntress |
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Ed Huntress wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote in message t... Ed Huntress wrote: "The Davenport's" wrote in message ... So, what's the correct wage for them, Mike? How much can they be paid so they won't be "pricing themselves out of a job," so that things will be made here again instead of in China? -- Ed Huntress Ed, I think that you're still missing my point, and the point is that I do NOT believe that someone that bolts the bumper on a truck...and actually, just half the bumper because someone on the other side of the line does the other side...should be paid twice the wages that a skilled tradesman/woman gets paid. Yeah, you said that, that your sense of propriety and fairness apparently has been offended, and that's somehow tied into what labor has to do to keep their jobs from going overseas. And I'm asking you how much they *should* be paid, so that they don't price themselves out of a job, and no one has given me an answer that actually will save those jobs. How much should it be? OK...maybe I was wrong...you didn't miss my point, you seem to be ignoring it... I'm not ignoring it. Sure you are. Either that or you are unwilling to state the obvious. The obvious is that unions and high wages are the scapegoat for a trade imbalance that can't be solved by the solutions that several here have proposed. The problem is structural -- two vastly disparate economies pretending that they can conduct balanced trade if everyone would only "play fair." Nonsense. Well OK Ed but I'm going to stick with the "What do we want our lives to look like" thing. That's where the rebuild ought to start. We've been "Robber Barroned" over and over. Here, let me start a meaningful dialogue. Make a damned list. Get out an actual pice of paper and do this. On one side, put down where America wants to "be". This will be a soul searching excercise. On the other, put where you think we are. That ain't so hard. Take a year or more to think about it. Mull the entire thing over thoughtfully. Then, get your pad out and on a third sheet, write what it will take to get from where we are to where you think we ought to be and add what it will take to do the job. That's the excercise America ought to be participating in. In fact, our very survival as the nation you and I grew up in depends on such a "hold the phone" moment. -- John R. Carroll www.machiningsolution.com |
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"John R. Carroll" wrote in message .. . The Davenport's wrote: So, what's the correct wage for them, Mike? How much can they be paid so they won't be "pricing themselves out of a job," so that things will be made here again instead of in China? -- Ed Huntress All very nice, Mike. Now, I'll ask again: what should they be paid so they don't price themselves out of the globalized market? -- Ed Huntress And can you honestly say that over the top wage demands by unions had NO impact on the jobs going away? No, not really. The only way to compete with chinese labor is to work for what Chjinese laborers will work for, all things else being even. I wasn't trying to say that that was the only reason, but it was a contributing factor, along with the work rules and the owners/stockholders being greedy. You are confusing greed with what you practice in your every day life and call common sense. And let us not forget the American people, bless their little hearts, for thinking that saving a few bucks on that color TV wasn't going to have any effect on the world...right up until you couldn't find an American made TV anymore. You two can have a sensible conversation about this only when you are willing to talk about value added by labor and acceptable living standards. The question that needs to be asked and answered is this one: What would an auto workers job have to look like to be able to pay him enough to have a decent standard of living. Lowering his or her wage to reflect the value they currently add is meaningless. There is an answer to that question, however, and the answer is - whatever the cheapest labor rate is in the world. Everything else is just hoo haa. Only if you allow "free trade." Then you have, as Alan Tonelson puts it, a race to the bottom. There is nothing like free trade going on now, of course, but it almost looks like we wanted to stack the deck against ourselves. If we're going to mess with markets, which we do already, we at least ought to mess with them in a way that puts a brake on the radical dislocations we've been experiencing over the past decade or so. -- Ed Huntress |
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"John R. Carroll" wrote in message ... Ed Huntress wrote: "John R. Carroll" wrote in message t... Ed Huntress wrote: "The Davenport's" wrote in message ... So, what's the correct wage for them, Mike? How much can they be paid so they won't be "pricing themselves out of a job," so that things will be made here again instead of in China? -- Ed Huntress Ed, I think that you're still missing my point, and the point is that I do NOT believe that someone that bolts the bumper on a truck...and actually, just half the bumper because someone on the other side of the line does the other side...should be paid twice the wages that a skilled tradesman/woman gets paid. Yeah, you said that, that your sense of propriety and fairness apparently has been offended, and that's somehow tied into what labor has to do to keep their jobs from going overseas. And I'm asking you how much they *should* be paid, so that they don't price themselves out of a job, and no one has given me an answer that actually will save those jobs. How much should it be? OK...maybe I was wrong...you didn't miss my point, you seem to be ignoring it... I'm not ignoring it. Sure you are. Either that or you are unwilling to state the obvious. The obvious is that unions and high wages are the scapegoat for a trade imbalance that can't be solved by the solutions that several here have proposed. The problem is structural -- two vastly disparate economies pretending that they can conduct balanced trade if everyone would only "play fair." Nonsense. Well OK Ed but I'm going to stick with the "What do we want our lives to look like" thing. That's where the rebuild ought to start. We've been "Robber Barroned" over and over. Here, let me start a meaningful dialogue. Make a damned list. Get out an actual pice of paper and do this. On one side, put down where America wants to "be". This will be a soul searching excercise. On the other, put where you think we are. That ain't so hard. Take a year or more to think about it. Mull the entire thing over thoughtfully. Then, get your pad out and on a third sheet, write what it will take to get from where we are to where you think we ought to be and add what it will take to do the job. That's the excercise America ought to be participating in. In fact, our very survival as the nation you and I grew up in depends on such a "hold the phone" moment. Well, that's not a bad idea. Having recently read Bill McKibben's _Deep Economy_, I might have to keep whapping myself in the head to get down to it. d8-) -- Ed Huntress |
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"Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "Tom Gardner" wrote in message . .. "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "Tom Gardner" wrote in message ... "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... snip Among other things, the unions priced themselves out of jobs by demanding more for the job than it was worth. Mike And what's it worth, Mike? The Chinese charge $0.80/hour. Is that what it's worth? -- Ed Huntress The basic three factors in the cost of a good or service a Price, quality and service. If the good or service is of the correct quality, meaning that is fulfills the requirements, and the service also is acceptable then the price becomes the determining factor. If the Chinese place a good in the market that fulfills the market's need, the "worth" of that good is exactly what the market pays for it. But, that doesn't translate to setting the cost of labor. You can't make that claim Ed. What sets the cost of the $.80/hr. labor is that's what the market for labor in China is in that region, at that time. But that still leaves open the question of what the "correct" wage is for the US, the one the unions should be asking for so as to not "price themselves out of a job." How about it, Tom? What should labor be asking for? Maybe, say, three times what they make in China? That ought to cover the transportation costs and leave a little margin. Should labor be asking for $2.40/hour? That may be a little high, though. Why should consumers in the US pay more than they can buy Chinese goods for? What's the wage that US unions should be asking for, to avoid pricing themselves out of competition with China? Do you have a "correct" wage in mind? -- Ed Huntress I think the labor wage should be whatever the market will bear. We have huge advantages in automation, quality, service and that "Made in USA" sticker still means a lot. I'd like to pay higher wages than I do now, and my wages are better than most in the industry. The "correct" wage is one that the workers can prosper the most while the company can prosper too. The union mentality is: "Lets cut the goose open and get ALL the gold." I think that the union mentality, for around 150 years, was this: "We know you'll screw us as much as you can, and nobody knows how little income you'll work for. So we'll push you until you can't be pushed anymore...because, for 60 or 70 years (from 1870 to 1930), that's exactly what you did to us. And you'd do it again starting tomorrow if you could get away with it." It worked out a fairly stable equilibrium until we faced high volumes of dirt-cheap imported products. Now the manufacturers who can't move have no way to prosper, if they're in competition with some of those dirt-cheap imported products. But they'll give it a try. They'll see if they can squeeze it out of labor. But they really can't, except at the margins, because nobody can live on what they can now afford to pay. Surprise; it turned out that the golden goose is a whore. She followed the companies that were able to move their manufacturing to the dirt-cheap-labor countries. They're still making a bundle, the goose is laying her eggs for them, and we've gone from being a country with the biggest middle class and the lowest income schisms in modern history to one of the worst in the developed world. And everyone is looking for a scapegoat, because they've been blinded by the minions of wealth who feed them a half-assed economic theory we imported from Austria, telling them they're really better off, and any pain they perceive is either an illusion or somebody else's fault. Hey, you gotta' squeeze somebody or you'll go out of business, right? And all the nice guys who want to pay their employees more are wringing their hands, because they've bought the bill of goods the rich guys are feeding them, and there's just nothing else they can do. Maybe they'll pipe in some violin music. -- Ed Huntress If I had it to do all over again, I sure wouldn't be in manufacturing! I see a number of friends that have cushy Government jobs making 5 times what I make and they are ready to retire in their 50s. Only a fool fights the battles I do and get so little appreciation or even understanding that I'm looking out for peoples' best interests. |
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On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 21:12:09 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, "Tom
Gardner" quickly quoth: If I had it to do all over again, I sure wouldn't be in manufacturing! I see a number of friends that have cushy Government jobs making 5 times what I make and they are ready to retire in their 50s. Only a fool fights the battles I do and get so little appreciation or even understanding that I'm looking out for peoples' best interests. Yeah, but YOU can sleep at night and have built up GOOD karma. -- It is better to wear out than to rust out. -- Bishop Richard Cumberland |
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"Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "The Davenport's" wrote in message ... So, what's the correct wage for them, Mike? How much can they be paid so they won't be "pricing themselves out of a job," so that things will be made here again instead of in China? -- Ed Huntress Ed, I think that you're still missing my point, and the point is that I do NOT believe that someone that bolts the bumper on a truck...and actually, just half the bumper because someone on the other side of the line does the other side...should be paid twice the wages that a skilled tradesman/woman gets paid. Yeah, you said that, that your sense of propriety and fairness apparently has been offended, and that's somehow tied into what labor has to do to keep their jobs from going overseas. And I'm asking you how much they *should* be paid, so that they don't price themselves out of a job, and no one has given me an answer that actually will save those jobs. How much should it be? OK...maybe I was wrong...you didn't miss my point, you seem to be ignoring it... I'm not ignoring it. I'm waiting for you to relate it to those jobs that have been lost in manufacturing. You just think the unions are demanding too much. So far you haven't made any connection to lost jobs. I'm sure you know by now that *my* point is that there is hardly any connection at all. We'll see how far we get with this. OK...How much should the jobs be worth? How does 2/3 the prevailing wages for skilled trades in the area? So here in south central Wisconsin, that would put the bumper-bolter at making a little under $13.50usd That's great. Now, how does he compete with a Chinese bumper-bolter making less than $1.00/hour? Short answer: He doesn't. Wait till the Chinese start making cars that are acceptable to Western customers. Then all hell will break loose. snip All very nice, Mike. Now, I'll ask again: what should they be paid so they don't price themselves out of the globalized market? -- Ed Huntress And can you honestly say that over the top wage demands by unions had NO impact on the jobs going away? Only at the margins. That isn't the dynamic that's producing the big shift in manufacturing to low-wage countries, nor does it have more than a trivial effect on either jobs in the US or our balance of trade. Even under-the-top wages, such as the $13.50 you suggest, are so far removed from the global market wage that no one will even notice -- except for the US bumper-bolter who is now making 2/3 of what he was. The point is that you're not keeping your eye on the economic and business dynamics. You can't fix a $25 wage disparity with a $10 solution, if the big players are free to go where they want to. I wasn't trying to say that that was the only reason, but it was a contributing factor, along with the work rules and the owners/stockholders being greedy. If you spend six months with the numbers, 8 hours/day, as I did four years ago when I was writing about trade with China, you'll soon realize that all that is so much noise. Follow the wages. And don't be misled by the fact that direct labor is a tiny fraction of manufacturing cost. The big issue is *embedded* labor costs, which means that the guy shoveling coal makes $0.80/hour, as does the truck driver, the steelworker, the guy who builds the plants, and everyone else. Costs in China are a tiny fraction of ours across the board. Trimming wages for assembly line workers in the US isn't going to cut it. And let us not forget the American people, bless their little hearts, for thinking that saving a few bucks on that color TV wasn't going to have any effect on the world...right up until you couldn't find an American made TV anymore. So, what are they supposed to do? Buy a more expensive TV so you can buy a new bass boat? Remember, world trade has been sold and ingrained deep into our psyche. Buying the best value is what everyone is *supposed* to do. According to current conservative economic theory, national chauvinism in trade matters is bad ju-ju. Rather than go around in circles, I'll try to put a cap on my point of view. We're committing suicide for the sake of some half-baked, ideological theories about business and trade. We're too far gone to do anything about it. Either it will work out as Milton Friedman said -- the value of the dollar will drop so much that we'll have economic parity with China, if we don't collapse first -- or someone (probably the Europeans) will decide we can't keep sacrificing ourselves on the altar of theory and will come up with workable constraints. No one I've heard of has come up with anything else. Meantime, don't waste your time looking for scapegoats. Unions aren't it. They have practically nothing to do with it. That's true, of course. But when you're dealing with a version of the blame everything on Bill Clinton conservative that wants to blame every economic ill on unions, you see what you get. This group of folks wants to pin all our economic woes on the tail of the unions. That's getting really difficult in today's economic structure but as you see that doesn't stop them from trying. As to competing with low wage countries like China it's obvious by now that the US simply can't do it. In any industry that both the US and China are making a similar product the Chinese one is going to be produced for so much less that the American product simply can't compete. So what do you do? Quit competing in that area, concentrate on areas where you have an advantage, or figure out ways to cheat. Clearly, our opponents have no compunctions against not playing by the rules. If it was up to me I'd just cheat the **** out of the Chinese. Foreign trade is economic war, neh? Hawke |
Try this philosophy:
Ed Huntress I think the labor wage should be whatever the market will bear. We have huge advantages in automation, quality, service and that "Made in USA" sticker still means a lot. I'd like to pay higher wages than I do now, and my wages are better than most in the industry. The "correct" wage is one that the workers can prosper the most while the company can prosper too. The union mentality is: "Lets cut the goose open and get ALL the gold." I think that the union mentality, for around 150 years, was this: "We know you'll screw us as much as you can, and nobody knows how little income you'll work for. So we'll push you until you can't be pushed anymore...because, for 60 or 70 years (from 1870 to 1930), that's exactly what you did to us. And you'd do it again starting tomorrow if you could get away with it." It worked out a fairly stable equilibrium until we faced high volumes of dirt-cheap imported products. Now the manufacturers who can't move have no way to prosper, if they're in competition with some of those dirt-cheap imported products. But they'll give it a try. They'll see if they can squeeze it out of labor. But they really can't, except at the margins, because nobody can live on what they can now afford to pay. Surprise; it turned out that the golden goose is a whore. She followed the companies that were able to move their manufacturing to the dirt-cheap-labor countries. They're still making a bundle, the goose is laying her eggs for them, and we've gone from being a country with the biggest middle class and the lowest income schisms in modern history to one of the worst in the developed world. And everyone is looking for a scapegoat, because they've been blinded by the minions of wealth who feed them a half-assed economic theory we imported from Austria, telling them they're really better off, and any pain they perceive is either an illusion or somebody else's fault. Hey, you gotta' squeeze somebody or you'll go out of business, right? And all the nice guys who want to pay their employees more are wringing their hands, because they've bought the bill of goods the rich guys are feeding them, and there's just nothing else they can do. Maybe they'll pipe in some violin music. -- Ed Huntress If I had it to do all over again, I sure wouldn't be in manufacturing! I see a number of friends that have cushy Government jobs making 5 times what I make and they are ready to retire in their 50s. Only a fool fights the battles I do and get so little appreciation or even understanding that I'm looking out for peoples' best interests. If you're putting other people's best interests ahead of your own then you really are in the wrong business, actually being in business at all. Take a look at the guy who was running Countrywide Mortgage. He ruined the company, cost thousands of people their jobs, drove the price of the stock into the dirt, and helped create the housing mess we now have. But when Bank of America bought the company he walked away from it with a 110 million dollar payday. Now that's a businessman! He was putting his interests first. That's the way a real capitalist does things. And nobody says or does anything about him being over paid like those lazy union workers either. Things sure are different when you're on top, huh? No such thing as too much pay for those at the top is there, no matter how lousy a job they do? Hawke |
Try this philosophy:
"Larry Jaques" wrote in message ... On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 21:12:09 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, "Tom Gardner" quickly quoth: If I had it to do all over again, I sure wouldn't be in manufacturing! I see a number of friends that have cushy Government jobs making 5 times what I make and they are ready to retire in their 50s. Only a fool fights the battles I do and get so little appreciation or even understanding that I'm looking out for peoples' best interests. Yeah, but YOU can sleep at night and have built up GOOD karma. -- It is better to wear out than to rust out. -- Bishop Richard Cumberland I'm tired, my feet hurt and my fingers are numb. I've traded my health for business ownership! I'll eventually sell the firm and have just enough for health care and a good Irish funeral! I could have joined some union and spent all my time figuring out how to cheat and steal from my boss! |
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