It always seems strange why anyone would chose to make less money,less
benefits,less insurance,less retirement,less and less. Just how dumb
does it take... Not to be able to realize the benefits of belong to a
group that looks out for you and your family

Union definition:
"A combination so formed, especially an alliance or confederation of
people, parties, or political entities for mutual interest or benefit"

Every doctor,every lawyer,every teacher,every realtor,every police
officer, every professional baseball payer,every professional football
player,every professional basketball player,every professional
umpire,every dentist belongs to a organization or association to that
offers help and support to that individual or group. Our country is
full of professional associations that take dues form their members.

But if a worker joins a group to help themselves.
That person becomes a low life dirty dog. This starts with industry
and people who are ignorant of Unions and of the real work place.

Jobs are moved over seas to the cheapest labor cost and less
government control..... Does that mean that we who work with our
hands,our brains and our hearts have to make third world wages? Does
this mean that we have to work in a unsafe environment? Do we have to
sacrifice our health, our bodies and our loved ones?
There is always someone who will work cheaper, with less safety
and less concern about our environment.
Just look at big business..... The owners of mines,factories and
companies who are fined or arrested each year for pollution,safety
violations,harassment,lying,endangering their employees.
The Coe's that steal hundreds of millions of dollars from their
companies and stock holders. If you think Unions are corrupted? You
hand better take a good look at big business. The IRS does?

Today we need organization of Labor more than ever.

Unions .... "The people who brought you the weekends"

Union Millwright and Damn Proud Of It
Ron Oliver

Unions-the people that destroyed the US Auto industry, and most other US
based manufacturing businesses. Congrats, my last machine tool purchase
was Chinese.
JR
Dweller in the cellar

Millwright Ron wrote:
a bunch of BS

--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth
If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes
Doubt yourself, and the real world will eat you alive
The world doesn't revolve around you, it revolves around me
No skeletons in the closet; just decomposing corpses
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dependence is Vulnerability:
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Open the Pod Bay Doors please, Hal"
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.."

"JR North" wrote in message
.. .
Unions-the people that destroyed the US Auto industry, and most other US
based manufacturing businesses. Congrats, my last machine tool purchase
was Chinese.
JR
Dweller in the cellar

Millwright Ron wrote:
a bunch of BS


Thanks for saving me the time, JR. The convoluted thinking of people
that think they are deserving of money beyond their worth is one of the
chief reasons we are where we are today.

It's ironic how some union members aren't smart enough to keep their mouths
closed. What's that old saying-------"it's better to be thought a fool than
to open one's mouth and remove all doubt"? Just how much evidence will
it take to have these people understand that they are the cause of the
problem, not the solution? Hell, I'd rather my mother would have been a
whore than a union member.

I wonder-----with the writer's strike going on right now----how many of
these people that have been well paid for their "work" (and I use that term
loosely, judging by today's moronic productions on TV), would be willing to
give back a portion of their pay for programs that bomb? What the hell's
the difference? If they expect to benefit by the investments of others,
why shouldn't they also be at risk? Why is it that people that sell their
time can't see, clearly, that they have already been paid for their efforts
and are not owed anything further? You want in on the action? Invest
*your * money and take the risks------why should anyone benefit from the
efforts of others?

With the attitude they have, wouldn't it be akin to GM asking me to send
them a few bucks weekly because I may be using one of their autos as a taxi?

Harold

Unions

no comment

On Nov 6, 7:05 pm, JR North wrote:
Unions-the people that destroyed the US Auto industry, and most other US
based manufacturing businesses. Congrats, my last machine tool purchase
was Chinese.
JR
Dweller in the cellar

Millwright Ron wrote:

a bunch of BS

--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Home Page:http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth
If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes
Doubt yourself, and the real world will eat you alive
The world doesn't revolve around you, it revolves around me
No skeletons in the closet; just decomposing corpses
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dependence is Vulnerability:
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Open the Pod Bay Doors please, Hal"
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.."



Government and employers dishonestly attack unions but let us get some
perspective.
Democracy is traditionally strongest where you have strong unions.
Solidarity, the Polish workers' union, brought down the Polish
communist government. Unions lead the campaign against the incompetent
dictatorship in Zimbabwe. Dictators, like Hitler, know that to
consolidate permanent power you first destroy the unions.

Our good conditions of employment came from union action over the
past century.

Unions provide the level playing field and the balance needed for
justice. Employer organization's refer to union bosses' excesses. They
ignore the excesses of the company bosses, their failures and their
obscene pay, 130 times the average workers' pay.

Why do we need Unions?

Only an idiot refuses to see the writing's on the wall.

" I will take the job if you will pay me two dollars per day" "No I do
not need insurance" "Yes my wife will cook dinner for you tonight."
"What time do I need to send over my little son for you private party"
" Yes I will work for free on Saturday." Yes Sunday will be okay too!"
"I need the job to feed my family"."Yes sir Supreme Boss of the
America's"

SKILLED ON PRINCIPLE ----- UNION BY CHOICE

Union Millwright Ron

"Millwright Ron" wrote in message
oups.com...

snip
Unions provide the level playing field and the balance needed for
justice. Employer organization's refer to union bosses' excesses. They
ignore the excesses of the company bosses, their failures and their
obscene pay, 130 times the average workers' pay.

Why do we need Unions?

Only an idiot refuses to see the writing's on the wall.

" I will take the job if you will pay me two dollars per day" "No I do
not need insurance" "Yes my wife will cook dinner for you tonight."
"What time do I need to send over my little son for you private party"
" Yes I will work for free on Saturday." Yes Sunday will be okay too!"
"I need the job to feed my family"."Yes sir Supreme Boss of the
America's"

SKILLED ON PRINCIPLE ----- UNION BY CHOICE

Union Millwright Ron
=

If you embrace that "Union" philosophy, you probably suck as a millwright
and are a marginal employee that needs a high degree of protection to keep a
job. I doubt you would keep a job very long with me and I don't want your
wife's food or your son's ass. Nor, do I get 130 x base pay! You're a
fool.

A short union story, then I'll shut up.

I was in a union for 37 years, and now I am retired. Over the years, it
changed drastically until it is what it is today, a paid whore of the
companies it supplies workers to.

Anyway, I needed heart surgery. And at the time, I needed it YESTERDAY!

I went to the doctors, and specialists, and all. Then the insurance company
called me and informed me the company I had been working for hadn't paid my
premiums in six months.

I went to my business agent, and he said, "We here at the union don't get
involved in insurance issues." (Paying benefits is a contract issue.)

Luckily I had my pay stubs, so I had to take all that paper mess over to the
insurance company, file it with them, then wait for the Board to review it.
Long story short, nearly sixty days later, I had a five way bypass and
aortic valve replaced. Eight and one half hours surgery. Lucky I didn't
die while waiting. I was a walking time bomb.

A member of 35 years can't get their BA to get off their chair.

Don't ask me what I think of unions.

Steve

On Nov 7, 7:48 am, "Tom Gardner" wrote:
"Millwright Ron" wrote in message

oups.com...

snip



Unions provide the level playing field and the balance needed for
justice. Employer organization's refer to union bosses' excesses. They
ignore the excesses of the company bosses, their failures and their
obscene pay, 130 times the average workers' pay.

Why do we need Unions?

Only an idiot refuses to see the writing's on the wall.

" I will take the job if you will pay me two dollars per day" "No I do
not need insurance" "Yes my wife will cook dinner for you tonight."
"What time do I need to send over my little son for you private party"
" Yes I will work for free on Saturday." Yes Sunday will be okay too!"
"I need the job to feed my family"."Yes sir Supreme Boss of the
America's"

SKILLED ON PRINCIPLE ----- UNION BY CHOICE

Union Millwright Ron

=

If you embrace that "Union" philosophy, you probably suck as a millwright
and are a marginal employee that needs a high degree of protection to keep a
job. I doubt you would keep a job very long with me and I don't want your
wife's food or your son's ass. Nor, do I get 130 x base pay! You're a
fool.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
When your intelligence level is equal to potato! You attack the
Messenger instead of the message!

Abraham Lincoln:

The strongest bond of human sympathy outside the family relation
should be one uniting working people of all nations and tongues and
kindred's.

Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the
fruit of labor, and could never have existed if Labor had not first
existed. Labor is superior to capital, and deserves much the higher
consideration

Dwight D. Eisenhower:

Only a fool would try to deprive working men and working women of
their right to join the union of their choice.

Frank Lloyd Wright:

If capitalism is fair then unionism must be. If men have a right to
capitalize their ideas and the resources of their country, then that
implies the right of men to capitalize their labor.

Jimmy Carter:

Every advance in this half-century-Social Security, civil rights,
Medicare, aid to education, one after another-came with the support
and leadership of American Labor.

Martin Luther King, Jr.:

In our glorious fight for civil rights, we must guard against being
fooled by false slogans, as 'right-to-work.' It provides no 'rights'
and no 'works.' Its purpose is to destroy labor unions and the freedom
of collective bargaining... We demand this fraud be stopped.

Pope Paul VI:

The important role of union organizations must be admitted: their
object is the representation of the various categories of workers,
their lawful collaboration in the economic advance of society, and the
development of the sense of their responsibility for the realization
of the common good

SKILLED ON PRINCIPLE ----- UNION BY CHOICE
Millwright Ron

Millwright Ron wrote:


SKILLLESS ON PRINCIPLE ----- UNION BRAINWASHED BY CHOICE
Millwright Ron


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Millwright Wrong wrote in article
.com...
On Nov 6, 7:05 pm, JR North wrote:

SKILLED ON PRINCIPLE ----- UNION BY CHOICE


Given the long-entrenched union principle of featherbedding, I doubt you
are anywhere as skilled as a cross-trained, multi-tasking, non-union
worker.

You need to call in a "specialist" to simply plug your machine in.

I always laughed at the union-stipulated principle of having a "fire
tender" on a diesel locomotive.

Any wonder why the railroads nearly went under?


Union Millwright Wrong

On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 22:04:27 -0800, Millwright Ron wrote:

Dictators, like Hitler, know that to
consolidate permanent power you first destroy the unions.

I do believe that you have now triggered Godwin's Law.

Our good conditions of employment came from union action over the
past century.

Yes. Emphasis on "past" and "century". Welcome to this one. Be useful
or get out.

"JR North" wrote in message
.. .
Unions-the people that destroyed the US Auto industry, and most other US
based manufacturing businesses. Congrats, my last machine tool purchase
was Chinese.
JR
Dweller in the cellar

I do believe that you are at least partially correct. However, even without
unions, how would US automakers be able to compete with countries that pay
their workers forty dollars a week or forty dollars a month?

As a country's wealth increases, its ability to compete with poor countries
decreases. The unions didn't cause the situation, they only accelerated it.

On Wed, 7 Nov 2007 15:31:35 -0600, with neither quill nor qualm, "Adam
Corolla" quickly quoth:


"JR North" wrote in message
. ..
Unions-the people that destroyed the US Auto industry, and most other US
based manufacturing businesses. Congrats, my last machine tool purchase
was Chinese.
JR
Dweller in the cellar

I do believe that you are at least partially correct. However, even without
unions, how would US automakers be able to compete with countries that pay
their workers forty dollars a week or forty dollars a month?

Consider the billions they spent to build brand-new factories
offshore. That cost a lot more than a year's difference in wages.


As a country's wealth increases, its ability to compete with poor countries
decreases. The unions didn't cause the situation, they only accelerated it.

While both statements may be true, your minimalization of the damages
that unions do is also noted.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
When I die, I'm leaving my body to science fiction. --Steven Wright
----------------------------

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 7 Nov 2007 15:31:35 -0600, with neither quill nor qualm, "Adam
Corolla" quickly quoth:


"JR North" wrote in message
...
Unions-the people that destroyed the US Auto industry, and most other US
based manufacturing businesses. Congrats, my last machine tool purchase
was Chinese.
JR
Dweller in the cellar

I do believe that you are at least partially correct. However, even
without
unions, how would US automakers be able to compete with countries that pay
their workers forty dollars a week or forty dollars a month?

Consider the billions they spent to build brand-new factories
offshore. That cost a lot more than a year's difference in wages.

If a company has 20,000 employees being paid $50,000 a year, that's a
billion a year in salaries, which of course doesn't include benefits.
You aren't really saying anything.
Exactly how much does it cost to build a new factory overseas vs.
modernizing a factory here? How much will the company save in wages?

As a country's wealth increases, its ability to compete with poor
countries
decreases. The unions didn't cause the situation, they only accelerated
it.

While both statements may be true, your minimalization of the damages
that unions do is also noted.

Actually, I'm not trying to minimalize the damage that unions do. I'm only
saying that recession is an inevitable part of growth, especially in a world
in which most countries are still third-world at best. I see it as simply
supply and demand. A wealthy nation can't compete with a poor one in labor
costs.

Unions are as I said a (probably) necessary evil to keep corporations from
screwing the workers; however with unionization the situation then becomes
whether management can screw workers more or whether the workers (unions)
can screw the company more. It's a lose/lose situation either way--unions
all too often lack the ability to see anything from the corporation's
perspective. Wringing every last cent out of the corporation and giving it
to the workers as you know results in the company either going out of
business or fleeing the country. On the other hand, corporations who are
led by greedy, inept managers who try to screw the workers out of a livable
wage eventually damage the economy so much, they don't have anyone left who
can afford their products--but that takes a lot longer and a lot more
widespread abuse because the harm is extremely diluted across the market
base.

The solution is for both sides to sincerely try to understand the other.
Workers have to understand they can't get higher wages and better benefits
every year if the company's profits aren't going up, or the company will run
out of money and die; and the corporate management needs to understand that
production is better when employees are motivated to increase the company's
bottom line. Unfortunately, that's not how the free market works, so there
will probably always be a need for unions--which are a remedy which
ultimately be as harmful as the problem.

Competition works for a while but the end result is inevitably bad.
Unfortunately, the most efficient system--cooperation--(what communism is
*supposed* to be based on) fails much more quickly because people don't seem
to be motivated by the lofty ideal of working toward a better world for all;
but tend to get very motivated by avarice and the spirit of battle.

I seem to see ways in which things could be improved, but sometimes I wonder
if maybe everything is not only as it should be but as it must be.

"Adam Corolla" wrote in message
...
snip-----
The solution is for both sides to sincerely try to understand the other.
Workers have to understand they can't get higher wages and better benefits
every year if the company's profits aren't going up, or the company will
run out of money and die; and the corporate management needs to understand
that production is better when employees are motivated to increase the
company's bottom line. Unfortunately, that's not how the free market
works, so there will probably always be a need for unions--which are a
remedy which ultimately be as harmful as the problem.

As far as I'm concerned, the problem is with people. All people. The union
is but one of the evils that people use to lever themselves up without
applying effort. Obtaining that "free lunch", if you will.

Most everyone I've ever known thinks that they can get ahead by demanding
unearned pay-----failing to come to terms with the idea that when their pay
goes up, but their productivity does not------the pay they receive will come
from the widgets they produce selling for higher prices. Everyone gets
the privilege of paying more for their purchases, causing them to whine,
proclaiming they're losing ground, demanding more, again, all the while
producing less. Only when these morons are reduced to rubble will they
begin to see the big picture. If then.

Harold










Competition works for a while but the end result is inevitably bad.
Unfortunately, the most efficient system--cooperation--(what communism is
*supposed* to be based on) fails much more quickly because people don't
seem to be motivated by the lofty ideal of working toward a better world
for all; but tend to get very motivated by avarice and the spirit of
battle.

I seem to see ways in which things could be improved, but sometimes I
wonder if maybe everything is not only as it should be but as it must be.

On Thu, 8 Nov 2007 17:24:59 -0600, with neither quill nor qualm, "Adam
Corolla" quickly quoth:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .

Consider the billions they spent to build brand-new factories
offshore. That cost a lot more than a year's difference in wages.

If a company has 20,000 employees being paid $50,000 a year, that's a
billion a year in salaries, which of course doesn't include benefits.
You aren't really saying anything.
Exactly how much does it cost to build a new factory overseas vs.
modernizing a factory here? How much will the company save in wages?

None. They'll divvy it out to top management.


As a country's wealth increases, its ability to compete with poor
countries
decreases. The unions didn't cause the situation, they only accelerated
it.

While both statements may be true, your minimalization of the damages
that unions do is also noted.

Actually, I'm not trying to minimalize the damage that unions do. I'm only
saying that recession is an inevitable part of growth, especially in a world
in which most countries are still third-world at best. I see it as simply
supply and demand. A wealthy nation can't compete with a poor one in labor
costs.

OK.

Unions are as I said a (probably) necessary evil to keep corporations from
screwing the workers; however with unionization the situation then becomes
whether management can screw workers more or whether the workers (unions)
can screw the company more. It's a lose/lose situation either way--unions
all too often lack the ability to see anything from the corporation's
perspective. Wringing every last cent out of the corporation and giving it
to the workers as you know results in the company either going out of
business or fleeing the country.

Unified voices/actions os the employees can work as well as unions do.


On the other hand, corporations who are
led by greedy, inept managers who try to screw the workers out of a livable
wage eventually damage the economy so much, they don't have anyone left who
can afford their products--but that takes a lot longer and a lot more
widespread abuse because the harm is extremely diluted across the market
base.

Huh? Inept managers paying low wages ruin the economy? How? I see
these folks running the corporation out of business, not ruining the
economy. Or is that your point?


The solution is for both sides to sincerely try to understand the other.
Workers have to understand they can't get higher wages and better benefits
every year if the company's profits aren't going up, or the company will run
out of money and die; and the corporate management needs to understand that
production is better when employees are motivated to increase the company's
bottom line. Unfortunately, that's not how the free market works, so there
will probably always be a need for unions--which are a remedy which
ultimately be as harmful as the problem.

I disagree about needing unions. Hell, the press does a better job at
at getting wages up or eliminating sweat shops than they do.


Competition works for a while but the end result is inevitably bad.
Unfortunately, the most efficient system--cooperation--(what communism is
*supposed* to be based on) fails much more quickly because people don't seem
to be motivated by the lofty ideal of working toward a better world for all;
but tend to get very motivated by avarice and the spirit of battle.

I seem to see ways in which things could be improved, but sometimes I wonder
if maybe everything is not only as it should be but as it must be.

Precisely. Everything we're discussing is moot. Karma resolves all!

-----------------------------------------------------------------
When I die, I'm leaving my body to science fiction. --Steven Wright
----------------------------

"Millwright Ron" wrote in message
ups.com...
It always seems strange why anyone would chose to make less money,less
benefits,less insurance,less retirement,less and less. Just how dumb
does it take... Not to be able to realize the benefits of belong to a
group that looks out for you and your family

Union definition:
snip

WAY old-school way of thinking. The more progressive labor unions today
partner with their company to achieve the pinnacle of safety, productivity,
security and prosperity. Gone are the adversarial tensions. Gone are the
days of a union protecting a marginal worker. A good company and a good
employee want the same thing. It's the bull**** worker that hides behind
union protection, and the unions aren't putting up with that crap anymore.

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
t...

"Millwright Ron" wrote in message
ups.com...
It always seems strange why anyone would chose to make less money,less
benefits,less insurance,less retirement,less and less. Just how dumb
does it take... Not to be able to realize the benefits of belong to a
group that looks out for you and your family

Union definition:
snip

WAY old-school way of thinking. The more progressive labor unions today
partner with their company to achieve the pinnacle of safety,
productivity, security and prosperity. Gone are the adversarial tensions.
Gone are the days of a union protecting a marginal worker. A good company
and a good employee want the same thing. It's the bull**** worker that
hides behind union protection, and the unions aren't putting up with that
crap anymore.

1930's union rederick from a time when most workers didn't graduate the 8th
grade.
With global competition smart workers understand that education is the key
to to
secure well paying jobs. The reality is, long gone are the days of doing the
same
job for the same company for 40 years. As an employer i want smart people
working with me and am more than happy to share the proffits with the
people
that make the company profitable for all of us. The ability to learn new
skills is
far more valuable than a union job when a robot eliminates that union job.
People
who invest thier hard earned money in continuing education instead of union
dues will be the
employable workers of the future.

Best Regards
Tom.

"azotic" wrote in message
...

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
t...

"Millwright Ron" wrote in message
ups.com...
It always seems strange why anyone would chose to make less money,less
benefits,less insurance,less retirement,less and less. Just how dumb
does it take... Not to be able to realize the benefits of belong to a
group that looks out for you and your family

Union definition:
snip

WAY old-school way of thinking. The more progressive labor unions today
partner with their company to achieve the pinnacle of safety,
productivity, security and prosperity. Gone are the adversarial
tensions. Gone are the days of a union protecting a marginal worker. A
good company and a good employee want the same thing. It's the bull****
worker that hides behind union protection, and the unions aren't putting
up with that crap anymore.

1930's union rederick from a time when most workers didn't graduate the
8th grade.
With global competition smart workers understand that education is the key
to to
secure well paying jobs. The reality is, long gone are the days of doing
the same
job for the same company for 40 years. As an employer i want smart people
working with me and am more than happy to share the proffits with the
people
that make the company profitable for all of us. The ability to learn new
skills is
far more valuable than a union job when a robot eliminates that union job.
People
who invest thier hard earned money in continuing education instead of
union dues will be the
employable workers of the future.

Best Regards
Tom.

I can remember when we had 80 employees, now I have 16 and our sales are
more than double and profits are quadruple. AUTOMATION!!! And, we will be
putting a new machine on line this month that eliminates an entire job but
boosts the pay of everybody in that wook cell.

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
. net...

snip


I can remember when we had 80 employees, now I have 16 and our sales are
more than double and profits are quadruple. AUTOMATION!!! And, we will
be putting a new machine on line this month that eliminates an entire job
but boosts the pay of everybody in that wook cell.

Careful, Tom. The next piece of automation that you put in may eliminate
*you*. Be sure to read the fine print. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
. net...

snip


I can remember when we had 80 employees, now I have 16 and our sales are
more than double and profits are quadruple. AUTOMATION!!! And, we will
be putting a new machine on line this month that eliminates an entire job
but boosts the pay of everybody in that wook cell.

Careful, Tom. The next piece of automation that you put in may eliminate
*you*. Be sure to read the fine print. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress


I'm old enough now that I plan just that! Not a machine but procedures and
protocols properly followed and I shouldn't need to be here full time. One
of my buds owns a fishing charter and could use a first mate. Another bud
plays golf 7 times a week and could use a partner. One of my cousins has
over 1,000 DVDs, and I have relatives all over the world that need unwelcome
house guests. Get the picture?

On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 12:37:44 GMT, "Tom Gardner"
wrote:


"azotic" wrote in message
...

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
t...

"Millwright Ron" wrote in message
ups.com...
It always seems strange why anyone would chose to make less money,less
benefits,less insurance,less retirement,less and less. Just how dumb
does it take... Not to be able to realize the benefits of belong to a
group that looks out for you and your family

Union definition:
snip

WAY old-school way of thinking. The more progressive labor unions today
partner with their company to achieve the pinnacle of safety,
productivity, security and prosperity. Gone are the adversarial
tensions. Gone are the days of a union protecting a marginal worker. A
good company and a good employee want the same thing. It's the bull****
worker that hides behind union protection, and the unions aren't putting
up with that crap anymore.

1930's union rederick from a time when most workers didn't graduate the
8th grade.
With global competition smart workers understand that education is the key
to to
secure well paying jobs. The reality is, long gone are the days of doing
the same
job for the same company for 40 years. As an employer i want smart people
working with me and am more than happy to share the proffits with the
people
that make the company profitable for all of us. The ability to learn new
skills is
far more valuable than a union job when a robot eliminates that union job.
People
who invest thier hard earned money in continuing education instead of
union dues will be the
employable workers of the future.

Best Regards
Tom.

I can remember when we had 80 employees, now I have 16 and our sales are
more than double and profits are quadruple. AUTOMATION!!! And, we will be
putting a new machine on line this month that eliminates an entire job but
boosts the pay of everybody in that wook cell.

Which reminds me...got you some more linear ways. Want em?

Gunner

Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional,
illogical liberal minority, and rabidly promoted by an
unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the
proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message

Which reminds me...got you some more linear ways. Want em?

Gunner
Do you still have my UPS and FedEx #s?

Tom Gardner wrote:

I can remember when we had 80 employees, now I have 16 and our sales are
more than double and profits are quadruple. AUTOMATION!!! And, we will be
putting a new machine on line this month that eliminates an entire job but
boosts the pay of everybody in that wook cell.


Isn't it what unions are actually worry about?
Let's have simple math he

80 workers then == 80 profits,
16 workers now == 240 profits

Where the rest of workers came to? To expand the manufacturing?
It has to be expanded 20-fold with this level of performance
increase. Does not happen. Or do they came to some other areas
(thru re-education and so on)? So those areas has to expand
5-fold at least. Does not happen. So where?

It's not like I advocate the unions or against or anything.
Just want to understand - where those people are going to?

C.

An example of unionism mentality:

I worked I&D of conventions. That was installation and dismantling of
exhibits up to 20,000 square feet. I was good at it.

I couldn't figure out why I was not getting as many hours as others who
worked at half the pace I did.

Then I figured it out. The company would rather send TWO men for a day than
one man who knew what he was doing, and could do it in 8 man hours. The
union would rather have half wits doing the 8 hour shuffle than those who
did the job in a reasonable amount of time. Double the dues for the union.

Duh.

So, I went back to driving a fork lift until retirement. There, it's
performance based, and I was at the top of the heap.

Steve

Coyher wrote:
Tom Gardner wrote:

I can remember when we had 80 employees, now I have 16 and our sales
are more than double and profits are quadruple. AUTOMATION!!! And,
we will be putting a new machine on line this month that eliminates an
entire job but boosts the pay of everybody in that wook cell.

Isn't it what unions are actually worry about?
Let's have simple math he

80 workers then == 80 profits,
16 workers now == 240 profits

Where the rest of workers came to? To expand the manufacturing?
It has to be expanded 20-fold with this level of performance
increase. Does not happen. Or do they came to some other areas
(thru re-education and so on)? So those areas has to expand
5-fold at least. Does not happen. So where?

It's not like I advocate the unions or against or anything.
Just want to understand - where those people are going to?

Tom is doing what he has to do to make
his business succeed. He will most definitely
keep the best employees and let go of the
marginal ones. That's the difference between
the US and Europe. The marginal ones will go
on unemployment (which Tom will help subsidize)
then they will find something else, but at
that point it's not Tom's concern.

Look at it this way... What is better, Tom
keeping the plant open, paying taxes, and
paying good employees well, or going out of
business and not paying any employees or taxes?

Times change. There's much gnashing of teeth
in Rochester, NY, where thousands of Kodak
employees thought they had jobs for life. Kodak
couldn't keep them all on if it wanted to. What
to do? People need to move, people need to be
retrained or be smart and general enough to work
anywhere.

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
t...

"Millwright Ron" wrote in message
ups.com...
It always seems strange why anyone would chose to make less money,less
benefits,less insurance,less retirement,less and less. Just how dumb
does it take... Not to be able to realize the benefits of belong to a
group that looks out for you and your family

Union definition:
snip

WAY old-school way of thinking. The more progressive labor unions today
partner with their company to achieve the pinnacle of safety,
productivity, security and prosperity. Gone are the adversarial tensions.
Gone are the days of a union protecting a marginal worker. A good company
and a good employee want the same thing. It's the bull**** worker that
hides behind union protection, and the unions aren't putting up with that
crap anymore.


What planet are you posting from?

Steve

Steve: I've heard that the Essence of Elegance is Simplicity. Your
response of "What planet are you posting from?" Wins my vote for one of the
most Elegant responses of the year.
Stu
"SteveB" wrote in message
...

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
t...

"Millwright Ron" wrote in message
ups.com...
It always seems strange why anyone would chose to make less money,less
benefits,less insurance,less retirement,less and less. Just how dumb
does it take... Not to be able to realize the benefits of belong to a
group that looks out for you and your family

Union definition:
snip

WAY old-school way of thinking. The more progressive labor unions today
partner with their company to achieve the pinnacle of safety,
productivity, security and prosperity. Gone are the adversarial
tensions. Gone are the days of a union protecting a marginal worker. A
good company and a good employee want the same thing. It's the bull****
worker that hides behind union protection, and the unions aren't putting
up with that crap anymore.


What planet are you posting from?

Steve

"Stuart & Kathryn Fields" wrote in message
.. .
Steve: I've heard that the Essence of Elegance is Simplicity. Your
response of "What planet are you posting from?" Wins my vote for one of
the most Elegant responses of the year.
Stu
"SteveB" wrote in message
...

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
t...

"Millwright Ron" wrote in message
ups.com...
It always seems strange why anyone would chose to make less money,less
benefits,less insurance,less retirement,less and less. Just how dumb
does it take... Not to be able to realize the benefits of belong to a
group that looks out for you and your family

Union definition:
snip

WAY old-school way of thinking. The more progressive labor unions today
partner with their company to achieve the pinnacle of safety,
productivity, security and prosperity. Gone are the adversarial
tensions. Gone are the days of a union protecting a marginal worker. A
good company and a good employee want the same thing. It's the bull****
worker that hides behind union protection, and the unions aren't putting
up with that crap anymore.


What planet are you posting from?

Steve

I must apologize now in case it was someone's attempt at sarcasm and I
missed it. If that is the case, all I can say is

"DOH!"

If not, and the post is sincere, my answer stands.

Thanks for the kudos, although I don't know if they're deserved at this
point or not.

Steve

"SteveB" wrote in message
...

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
t...

"Millwright Ron" wrote in message
ups.com...
It always seems strange why anyone would chose to make less money,less
benefits,less insurance,less retirement,less and less. Just how dumb
does it take... Not to be able to realize the benefits of belong to a
group that looks out for you and your family

Union definition:
snip

WAY old-school way of thinking. The more progressive labor unions today
partner with their company to achieve the pinnacle of safety,
productivity, security and prosperity. Gone are the adversarial
tensions. Gone are the days of a union protecting a marginal worker. A
good company and a good employee want the same thing. It's the bull****
worker that hides behind union protection, and the unions aren't putting
up with that crap anymore.


What planet are you posting from?

Steve


The unions have taken such a beating because of old-style thinking that they
are at least starting to come around. I'm here in Cleveland where the small
shops at least are thinking differently.

On Nov 6, 6:52 pm, Millwright Ron
wrote:
It always seems strange why anyone would chose to make less money,less
benefits,less insurance,less retirement,less and less. Just how dumb
does it take... Not to be able to realize the benefits of belong to a
group that looks out for you and your family

Union definition:
"A combination so formed, especially an alliance or confederation of
people, parties, or political entities for mutual interest or benefit"

Every doctor,every lawyer,every teacher,every realtor,every police
officer, every professional baseball payer,every professional football
player,every professional basketball player,every professional
umpire,every dentist belongs to a organization or association to that
offers help and support to that individual or group. Our country is
full of professional associations that take dues form their members.

But if a worker joins a group to help themselves.
That person becomes a low life dirty dog. This starts with industry
and people who are ignorant of Unions and of the real work place.

Jobs are moved over seas to the cheapest labor cost and less
government control..... Does that mean that we who work with our
hands,our brains and our hearts have to make third world wages? Does
this mean that we have to work in a unsafe environment? Do we have to
sacrifice our health, our bodies and our loved ones?
There is always someone who will work cheaper, with less safety
and less concern about our environment.
Just look at big business..... The owners of mines,factories and
companies who are fined or arrested each year for pollution,safety
violations,harassment,lying,endangering their employees.
The Coe's that steal hundreds of millions of dollars from their
companies and stock holders. If you think Unions are corrupted? You
hand better take a good look at big business. The IRS does?

Today we need organization of Labor more than ever.

Unions .... "The people who brought you the weekends"

Union Millwright and Damn Proud Of It
Ron Oliver

You may be posting to the wrong group here Ron.

This group seems to be composed of many self-
styled "successes" therefore your message is
wasted on them. Many here are of an adversarial
bent, being managers, owners, or past managers
(with a sprinkling of others thrown in) who have
been successful enough in their previous en-
devours to sit on their butts and attend trivial
pursuits (like you and I).

Not exactly your "Huddled masses" ehh?

If you enjoy your posting (I do) after all the neg-
ative responces and vilification (also notice the
lack of people standing up in your defence) by
others, continue to do so with the understanding
that, in this group at least, you will be considered
a troll.

Sorry buddy, I know your actions come from good
intentions but you can lead a horse....etc.

dennis
in nca

"rigger" wrote in message
oups.com...

snip

If you enjoy your posting (I do) after all the neg-
ative responces and vilification (also notice the
lack of people standing up in your defence) by
others, continue to do so with the understanding
that, in this group at least, you will be considered
a troll.

Oh, all right. You've embarrassed me into it. Ron has some good points. So
does Harold.

Harold would not have had the opportunity to reach the economic middle class
without unions, which, as Ron says about the "prevailing wage," raised the
wage bar for decades before Harold started to work, making it possible for
him to make a decent income. Before unions gained strength in the US the
"natural" balance of bargaining power kept most workers well below the
middle class. That includes most skilled workers, except those who owned
small businesses of their own. The middle class then was relatively small
and consisted of professionals, merchants, some small business owners,
higher-level bureaucrats and, by 1920 or so, white-collar managers. Unions
established a new equilibrium that made the US a primarily middle-class
economy. Discounting the top 5% of income-earners, the middle class was
around 25% of the population in the 1920s but had reached 52% of the
wage-earning population by 1950. The number could be higher or lower,
depending on which definitions you accept, but these are numbers based on
comparable definitions; the definitions of middle class don't matter for
this comparison, in other words, because they're both based on the same
shares of total national income. The relationships hold no matter how you
define it.

On the other hand, once unions had redressed the large bargaining advantage
that capital had in the earlier days of our industrial economy, their warts
and excesses started to be more noticeable and angered a lot of people. They
look like more of a problem than a solution today, particularly at the
by-enterprise (microeconomic) level, although their real negative effects
are probably 'way overstated in terms of macroeconomic effects. It will be
interesting to see what role they play as globalization expands and
developing countries repeat the habits of early capitalism that existed here
from 1870 - 1935 or so.

The argument that unions have been a major cause of offshoring is nonsense,
BTW. Wage relationships between developed and undeveloped countries would be
the same without them: the wages in both types of economies would be a lot
lower.

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
snip---
The argument that unions have been a major cause of offshoring is
nonsense, BTW. Wage relationships between developed and undeveloped
countries would be the same without them: the wages in both types of
economies would be a lot lower.

--
Ed Huntress


Perhaps, but that's something none of us can know. I've long maintained
that had workers here kept their cool and received pay in keeping with its
value, it's possible the advantage in moving to other locations wouldn't
have been great enough to warrant the move. I still think greed (at all
levels) is the greatest contributor to our current dilemma. Rarely do you
find people working for their real worth these days, and we're all paying
the price for their actions through ever increasing costs of goods and
services. Could be we're in for one hell of a lumpy ride now that it's
running rampant and the dollar has been reduced in value to, what, 10
cents?

Harold

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
. net...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
snip---
The argument that unions have been a major cause of offshoring is
nonsense, BTW. Wage relationships between developed and undeveloped
countries would be the same without them: the wages in both types of
economies would be a lot lower.

--
Ed Huntress


Perhaps, but that's something none of us can know. I've long maintained
that had workers here kept their cool and received pay in keeping with its
value, it's possible the advantage in moving to other locations wouldn't
have been great enough to warrant the move. I still think greed (at all
levels) is the greatest contributor to our current dilemma. Rarely do
you find people working for their real worth these days, and we're all
paying the price for their actions through ever increasing costs of goods
and services. Could be we're in for one hell of a lumpy ride now that
it's running rampant and the dollar has been reduced in value to, what,
10 cents?

Every year or so I ask you this question, but I don't remember ever getting
a definitive answer: What is the "value" that's in keeping with what pay,
Harold? What does it mean to be working for your "real worth"? What's the
dollar value? How do you calculate it?

Is there some natural process that determines how much pay you should get
for a certain kind of work, or is it something else?

--
Ed Huntress

Dunno, but paying unskilled union workers $30 an hour + bennies to screw
in refrigerator linings is precisely why Whirlpool (or whoever) packed
up their refer plant and shipped the whole thing, lock, stock, and
barrel to Mexico, wiping out the employment scene in the little factory
town where it was. 1600 some-odd union leaches got the slip.
JR
Dweller in the cellar

Ed Huntress wrote:
"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
. net...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
snip---

The argument that unions have been a major cause of offshoring is
nonsense, BTW. Wage relationships between developed and undeveloped
countries would be the same without them: the wages in both types of
economies would be a lot lower.

--
Ed Huntress


Perhaps, but that's something none of us can know. I've long maintained
that had workers here kept their cool and received pay in keeping with its
value, it's possible the advantage in moving to other locations wouldn't
have been great enough to warrant the move. I still think greed (at all
levels) is the greatest contributor to our current dilemma. Rarely do
you find people working for their real worth these days, and we're all
paying the price for their actions through ever increasing costs of goods
and services. Could be we're in for one hell of a lumpy ride now that
it's running rampant and the dollar has been reduced in value to, what,
10 cents?


Every year or so I ask you this question, but I don't remember ever getting
a definitive answer: What is the "value" that's in keeping with what pay,
Harold? What does it mean to be working for your "real worth"? What's the
dollar value? How do you calculate it?

Is there some natural process that determines how much pay you should get
for a certain kind of work, or is it something else?

--
Ed Huntress




--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth
If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes
Doubt yourself, and the real world will eat you alive
The world doesn't revolve around you, it revolves around me
No skeletons in the closet; just decomposing corpses
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dependence is Vulnerability:
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Open the Pod Bay Doors please, Hal"
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.."

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
. net...

snip---


Perhaps, but that's something none of us can know. I've long maintained
that had workers here kept their cool and received pay in keeping with
its value, it's possible the advantage in moving to other locations
wouldn't have been great enough to warrant the move. I still think
greed (at all levels) is the greatest contributor to our current dilemma.
Rarely do you find people working for their real worth these days, and
we're all paying the price for their actions through ever increasing
costs of goods and services. Could be we're in for one hell of a
lumpy ride now that it's running rampant and the dollar has been reduced
in value to, what, 10 cents?

Every year or so I ask you this question, but I don't remember ever
getting a definitive answer: What is the "value" that's in keeping with
what pay, Harold? What does it mean to be working for your "real worth"?
What's the dollar value? How do you calculate it?

Is there some natural process that determines how much pay you should get
for a certain kind of work, or is it something else?

--
Ed Huntress


Yes, Ed, I realize that I have never provided an answer, in part because I
surely am not qualified to provide one-----but one thing is sure------there
are workers that can lose their jobs to just about anyone off the
street----and they're making wages far beyond those of people with years of
experience in pursuing a skilled trade. I'm smart enough to know there's
something wrong with that scene. How do you suppose that came about?

For sake of conversation---I'll use a UPS driver. I'm sure they screen
humanity for the "cream of the crop", and have decent people in their
employ. I've talked with the local delivery people on occasion and have
found each of them to be very polite, friendly, and you could probably add
hard working to the list. They have no real skills-----and can be
replaced by just about anyone. I dare say I could learn their job in a
week, tops.

Having said that, do you really think a truck driver, one that can be
replaced by almost anyone that is capable of driving, is worth more pay than
someone that has dedicated years to mastering a trade? Do you feel that a
guy off the street can take the place of an experienced tool maker? Is it
possible that one of these people has greater "resale value" than the other?

It's not for me to assign values, but I'm sure as hell able to see when the
price of some things is beyond worth. Minimum wage will top $8/hr in
Washington first of next year. Do you really feel a kid filling drinks
at a fast food restaurant is worth that kind of pay? As the wages keep
getting driven ever higher by the bleeding heart democrats in this state,
what they're managing to accomplish is to eliminate a certain portion of
society from buying the products. How does industry, or society in general,
benefit by that? Worst of all, it's helping questionable people think they
can make a living without preparing themselves for the real world.

Harold

On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 09:53:51 -0800, rigger wrote:

On Nov 6, 6:52 pm, Millwright Ron
wrote:
It always seems strange why anyone would chose to make less money,less
benefits,less insurance,less retirement,less and less. Just how dumb
does it take... Not to be able to realize the benefits of belong to a
group that looks out for you and your family

Union definition:
"A combination so formed, especially an alliance or confederation of
people, parties, or political entities for mutual interest or benefit"

Every doctor,every lawyer,every teacher,every realtor,every police
officer, every professional baseball payer,every professional football
player,every professional basketball player,every professional
umpire,every dentist belongs to a organization or association to that
offers help and support to that individual or group. Our country is
full of professional associations that take dues form their members.

But if a worker joins a group to help themselves.
That person becomes a low life dirty dog. This starts with industry
and people who are ignorant of Unions and of the real work place.

Jobs are moved over seas to the cheapest labor cost and less
government control..... Does that mean that we who work with our
hands,our brains and our hearts have to make third world wages? Does
this mean that we have to work in a unsafe environment? Do we have to
sacrifice our health, our bodies and our loved ones?
There is always someone who will work cheaper, with less safety
and less concern about our environment.
Just look at big business..... The owners of mines,factories and
companies who are fined or arrested each year for pollution,safety
violations,harassment,lying,endangering their employees.
The Coe's that steal hundreds of millions of dollars from their
companies and stock holders. If you think Unions are corrupted? You
hand better take a good look at big business. The IRS does?

Today we need organization of Labor more than ever.

Unions .... "The people who brought you the weekends"

Union Millwright and Damn Proud Of It
Ron Oliver

You may be posting to the wrong group here Ron.

This group seems to be composed of many self-
styled "successes" therefore your message is
wasted on them. Many here are of an adversarial
bent, being managers, owners, or past managers
(with a sprinkling of others thrown in) who have
been successful enough in their previous en-
devours to sit on their butts and attend trivial
pursuits (like you and I).

Not exactly your "Huddled masses" ehh?

If you enjoy your posting (I do) after all the neg-
ative responces and vilification (also notice the
lack of people standing up in your defence) by
others, continue to do so with the understanding
that, in this group at least, you will be considered
a troll.

Sorry buddy, I know your actions come from good
intentions but you can lead a horse....etc.

dennis
in nca

Im reminded of my first job after getting out of the military.
Fisher Body. UAW.
Making the same 5 spot welds for hours at a time, with all my co
workers drunk, drugged, high, or hallucinating. Making really good
money while turning out ****ty products. Some of my co workers to
relieve the boredom, would do things like weld empty booze bottles or
big loose ball bearings into inaccessable portions of the body with
the hopes the "Rich *******s Would Go Crazy" hearing the various
clanking, crunching, tinkling etc when they drove their new cars.
And the stewards would grin, and turn a blind eye.

My mom was the service manager for a Chevy dealership for a while..she
had a nice collection of debris they fished out of brand new cars,
debris installed at the factory. The coolest one was a Clabber Girl
baking powder can, with some ball bearings in it, all neatly soldered
closed.
And the stewards would grin and turn a blind eye.....

After 6 weeks, I figured Id either go postal (not a good thing for a
recently returned combat vet) or cut my own wrists. So I quit my very
nicely paying job and found another one where the people were sane,
straight, normal and had self respect and pride.

**** the Unions. They were once damned necessary. They might be
necessary in some places today....though I cant think of any off hand.

But when some ****** puffs up and starts singing the praises of the
Unions today..I get an overwhelming urge to unzip and **** on his
foot.

Gunner

Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional,
illogical liberal minority, and rabidly promoted by an
unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the
proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Gunner Asch wrote in
:

snip
But when some ****** puffs up and starts singing the praises of the
Unions today..I get an overwhelming urge to unzip and **** on his
foot.

Gunner

snip


Don't do that, it might not be his job to get peeded on, better talk to his
Steward... You might be taking away a hardworking union man's money....


Bill

Gunner Asch wrote:

Im reminded of my first job after getting out of the military.
Fisher Body. UAW.
Making the same 5 spot welds for hours at a time, with all my co
workers drunk, drugged, high, or hallucinating. Making really good
money while turning out ****ty products.

My adopta-dad worked for the Chrysler Kokomo, IN casting plant. He took a
job that paid 7 cents less an hour but he could do in 4 hrs. It gave him
time to sober up so he could do that job. He racked out in the locker room
for the first 4 hours.

He wasn't embarased about his drinking but he was a bit about 8 hrs pay for
4 hrs work.

Wes

On Nov 7, 9:53 am, rigger wrote:
On Nov 6, 6:52 pm, Millwright Ron
wrote:





It always seems strange why anyone would chose to make less money,less
benefits,less insurance,less retirement,less and less. Just how dumb
does it take... Not to be able to realize the benefits of belong to a
group that looks out for you and your family

Union definition:
"A combination so formed, especially an alliance or confederation of
people, parties, or political entities for mutual interest or benefit"

Every doctor,every lawyer,every teacher,every realtor,every police
officer, every professional baseball payer,every professional football
player,every professional basketball player,every professional
umpire,every dentist belongs to a organization or association to that
offers help and support to that individual or group. Our country is
full of professional associations that take dues form their members.

But if a worker joins a group to help themselves.
That person becomes a low life dirty dog. This starts with industry
and people who are ignorant of Unions and of the real work place.

Jobs are moved over seas to the cheapest labor cost and less
government control..... Does that mean that we who work with our
hands,our brains and our hearts have to make third world wages? Does
this mean that we have to work in a unsafe environment? Do we have to
sacrifice our health, our bodies and our loved ones?
There is always someone who will work cheaper, with less safety
and less concern about our environment.
Just look at big business..... The owners of mines,factories and
companies who are fined or arrested each year for pollution,safety
violations,harassment,lying,endangering their employees.
The Coe's that steal hundreds of millions of dollars from their
companies and stock holders. If you think Unions are corrupted? You
hand better take a good look at big business. The IRS does?

Today we need organization of Labor more than ever.

Unions .... "The people who brought you the weekends"

Union Millwright and Damn Proud Of It
Ron Oliver

You may be posting to the wrong group here Ron.

This group seems to be composed of many self-
styled "successes" therefore your message is
wasted on them. Many here are of an adversarial
bent, being managers, owners, or past managers
(with a sprinkling of others thrown in) who have
been successful enough in their previous en-
devours to sit on their butts and attend trivial
pursuits (like you and I).

Not exactly your "Huddled masses" ehh?

If you enjoy your posting (I do) after all the neg-
ative responces and vilification (also notice the
lack of people standing up in your defence) by
others, continue to do so with the understanding
that, in this group at least, you will be considered
a troll.

Sorry buddy, I know your actions come from good
intentions but you can lead a horse....etc.

dennis
in nca- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

I will always stand up when I am attacked.

"SKILLED ON PRINCIPLE ----- UNION BY CHOICE"

From The Folks Who Gave You The Weekend

Union Millwright Ron
www.unionmillwright.com