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Unions
It always seems strange why anyone would chose to make less money,less
benefits,less insurance,less retirement,less and less. Just how dumb does it take... Not to be able to realize the benefits of belong to a group that looks out for you and your family Union definition: "A combination so formed, especially an alliance or confederation of people, parties, or political entities for mutual interest or benefit" Every doctor,every lawyer,every teacher,every realtor,every police officer, every professional baseball payer,every professional football player,every professional basketball player,every professional umpire,every dentist belongs to a organization or association to that offers help and support to that individual or group. Our country is full of professional associations that take dues form their members. But if a worker joins a group to help themselves. That person becomes a low life dirty dog. This starts with industry and people who are ignorant of Unions and of the real work place. Jobs are moved over seas to the cheapest labor cost and less government control..... Does that mean that we who work with our hands,our brains and our hearts have to make third world wages? Does this mean that we have to work in a unsafe environment? Do we have to sacrifice our health, our bodies and our loved ones? There is always someone who will work cheaper, with less safety and less concern about our environment. Just look at big business..... The owners of mines,factories and companies who are fined or arrested each year for pollution,safety violations,harassment,lying,endangering their employees. The Coe's that steal hundreds of millions of dollars from their companies and stock holders. If you think Unions are corrupted? You hand better take a good look at big business. The IRS does? Today we need organization of Labor more than ever. Unions .... "The people who brought you the weekends" Union Millwright and Damn Proud Of It Ron Oliver |
Unions
Unions-the people that destroyed the US Auto industry, and most other US
based manufacturing businesses. Congrats, my last machine tool purchase was Chinese. JR Dweller in the cellar Millwright Ron wrote: a bunch of BS -- -------------------------------------------------------------- Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes Doubt yourself, and the real world will eat you alive The world doesn't revolve around you, it revolves around me No skeletons in the closet; just decomposing corpses -------------------------------------------------------------- Dependence is Vulnerability: -------------------------------------------------------------- "Open the Pod Bay Doors please, Hal" "I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.." |
Unions
"JR North" wrote in message .. . Unions-the people that destroyed the US Auto industry, and most other US based manufacturing businesses. Congrats, my last machine tool purchase was Chinese. JR Dweller in the cellar Millwright Ron wrote: a bunch of BS Thanks for saving me the time, JR. The convoluted thinking of people that think they are deserving of money beyond their worth is one of the chief reasons we are where we are today. It's ironic how some union members aren't smart enough to keep their mouths closed. What's that old saying-------"it's better to be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt"? Just how much evidence will it take to have these people understand that they are the cause of the problem, not the solution? Hell, I'd rather my mother would have been a whore than a union member. I wonder-----with the writer's strike going on right now----how many of these people that have been well paid for their "work" (and I use that term loosely, judging by today's moronic productions on TV), would be willing to give back a portion of their pay for programs that bomb? What the hell's the difference? If they expect to benefit by the investments of others, why shouldn't they also be at risk? Why is it that people that sell their time can't see, clearly, that they have already been paid for their efforts and are not owed anything further? You want in on the action? Invest *your * money and take the risks------why should anyone benefit from the efforts of others? With the attitude they have, wouldn't it be akin to GM asking me to send them a few bucks weekly because I may be using one of their autos as a taxi? Harold |
Unions
Unions
no comment |
Unions
On Nov 6, 7:05 pm, JR North wrote:
Unions-the people that destroyed the US Auto industry, and most other US based manufacturing businesses. Congrats, my last machine tool purchase was Chinese. JR Dweller in the cellar Millwright Ron wrote: a bunch of BS -- -------------------------------------------------------------- Home Page:http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes Doubt yourself, and the real world will eat you alive The world doesn't revolve around you, it revolves around me No skeletons in the closet; just decomposing corpses -------------------------------------------------------------- Dependence is Vulnerability: -------------------------------------------------------------- "Open the Pod Bay Doors please, Hal" "I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.." Government and employers dishonestly attack unions but let us get some perspective. Democracy is traditionally strongest where you have strong unions. Solidarity, the Polish workers' union, brought down the Polish communist government. Unions lead the campaign against the incompetent dictatorship in Zimbabwe. Dictators, like Hitler, know that to consolidate permanent power you first destroy the unions. Our good conditions of employment came from union action over the past century. Unions provide the level playing field and the balance needed for justice. Employer organization's refer to union bosses' excesses. They ignore the excesses of the company bosses, their failures and their obscene pay, 130 times the average workers' pay. Why do we need Unions? Only an idiot refuses to see the writing's on the wall. " I will take the job if you will pay me two dollars per day" "No I do not need insurance" "Yes my wife will cook dinner for you tonight." "What time do I need to send over my little son for you private party" " Yes I will work for free on Saturday." Yes Sunday will be okay too!" "I need the job to feed my family"."Yes sir Supreme Boss of the America's" SKILLED ON PRINCIPLE ----- UNION BY CHOICE Union Millwright Ron |
Unions
"Tom Gardner" wrote in message t... "Millwright Ron" wrote in message ups.com... It always seems strange why anyone would chose to make less money,less benefits,less insurance,less retirement,less and less. Just how dumb does it take... Not to be able to realize the benefits of belong to a group that looks out for you and your family Union definition: snip WAY old-school way of thinking. The more progressive labor unions today partner with their company to achieve the pinnacle of safety, productivity, security and prosperity. Gone are the adversarial tensions. Gone are the days of a union protecting a marginal worker. A good company and a good employee want the same thing. It's the bull**** worker that hides behind union protection, and the unions aren't putting up with that crap anymore. 1930's union rederick from a time when most workers didn't graduate the 8th grade. With global competition smart workers understand that education is the key to to secure well paying jobs. The reality is, long gone are the days of doing the same job for the same company for 40 years. As an employer i want smart people working with me and am more than happy to share the proffits with the people that make the company profitable for all of us. The ability to learn new skills is far more valuable than a union job when a robot eliminates that union job. People who invest thier hard earned money in continuing education instead of union dues will be the employable workers of the future. Best Regards Tom. |
Unions
"Millwright Ron" wrote in message ups.com... It always seems strange why anyone would chose to make less money,less benefits,less insurance,less retirement,less and less. Just how dumb does it take... Not to be able to realize the benefits of belong to a group that looks out for you and your family Union definition: snip WAY old-school way of thinking. The more progressive labor unions today partner with their company to achieve the pinnacle of safety, productivity, security and prosperity. Gone are the adversarial tensions. Gone are the days of a union protecting a marginal worker. A good company and a good employee want the same thing. It's the bull**** worker that hides behind union protection, and the unions aren't putting up with that crap anymore. |
Unions
"azotic" wrote in message ... "Tom Gardner" wrote in message t... "Millwright Ron" wrote in message ups.com... It always seems strange why anyone would chose to make less money,less benefits,less insurance,less retirement,less and less. Just how dumb does it take... Not to be able to realize the benefits of belong to a group that looks out for you and your family Union definition: snip WAY old-school way of thinking. The more progressive labor unions today partner with their company to achieve the pinnacle of safety, productivity, security and prosperity. Gone are the adversarial tensions. Gone are the days of a union protecting a marginal worker. A good company and a good employee want the same thing. It's the bull**** worker that hides behind union protection, and the unions aren't putting up with that crap anymore. 1930's union rederick from a time when most workers didn't graduate the 8th grade. With global competition smart workers understand that education is the key to to secure well paying jobs. The reality is, long gone are the days of doing the same job for the same company for 40 years. As an employer i want smart people working with me and am more than happy to share the proffits with the people that make the company profitable for all of us. The ability to learn new skills is far more valuable than a union job when a robot eliminates that union job. People who invest thier hard earned money in continuing education instead of union dues will be the employable workers of the future. Best Regards Tom. I can remember when we had 80 employees, now I have 16 and our sales are more than double and profits are quadruple. AUTOMATION!!! And, we will be putting a new machine on line this month that eliminates an entire job but boosts the pay of everybody in that wook cell. |
Unions
Millwright Wrong wrote in article .com... On Nov 6, 7:05 pm, JR North wrote: SKILLED ON PRINCIPLE ----- UNION BY CHOICE Given the long-entrenched union principle of featherbedding, I doubt you are anywhere as skilled as a cross-trained, multi-tasking, non-union worker. You need to call in a "specialist" to simply plug your machine in. I always laughed at the union-stipulated principle of having a "fire tender" on a diesel locomotive. Any wonder why the railroads nearly went under? Union Millwright Wrong |
Unions
"Tom Gardner" wrote in message . net... snip I can remember when we had 80 employees, now I have 16 and our sales are more than double and profits are quadruple. AUTOMATION!!! And, we will be putting a new machine on line this month that eliminates an entire job but boosts the pay of everybody in that wook cell. Careful, Tom. The next piece of automation that you put in may eliminate *you*. Be sure to read the fine print. d8-) -- Ed Huntress |
Unions
"Millwright Ron" wrote in message oups.com... snip Unions provide the level playing field and the balance needed for justice. Employer organization's refer to union bosses' excesses. They ignore the excesses of the company bosses, their failures and their obscene pay, 130 times the average workers' pay. Why do we need Unions? Only an idiot refuses to see the writing's on the wall. " I will take the job if you will pay me two dollars per day" "No I do not need insurance" "Yes my wife will cook dinner for you tonight." "What time do I need to send over my little son for you private party" " Yes I will work for free on Saturday." Yes Sunday will be okay too!" "I need the job to feed my family"."Yes sir Supreme Boss of the America's" SKILLED ON PRINCIPLE ----- UNION BY CHOICE Union Millwright Ron = If you embrace that "Union" philosophy, you probably suck as a millwright and are a marginal employee that needs a high degree of protection to keep a job. I doubt you would keep a job very long with me and I don't want your wife's food or your son's ass. Nor, do I get 130 x base pay! You're a fool. |
Unions
"Tom Gardner" wrote in message t... "Millwright Ron" wrote in message ups.com... It always seems strange why anyone would chose to make less money,less benefits,less insurance,less retirement,less and less. Just how dumb does it take... Not to be able to realize the benefits of belong to a group that looks out for you and your family Union definition: snip WAY old-school way of thinking. The more progressive labor unions today partner with their company to achieve the pinnacle of safety, productivity, security and prosperity. Gone are the adversarial tensions. Gone are the days of a union protecting a marginal worker. A good company and a good employee want the same thing. It's the bull**** worker that hides behind union protection, and the unions aren't putting up with that crap anymore. What planet are you posting from? Steve |
Unions
A short union story, then I'll shut up.
I was in a union for 37 years, and now I am retired. Over the years, it changed drastically until it is what it is today, a paid whore of the companies it supplies workers to. Anyway, I needed heart surgery. And at the time, I needed it YESTERDAY! I went to the doctors, and specialists, and all. Then the insurance company called me and informed me the company I had been working for hadn't paid my premiums in six months. I went to my business agent, and he said, "We here at the union don't get involved in insurance issues." (Paying benefits is a contract issue.) Luckily I had my pay stubs, so I had to take all that paper mess over to the insurance company, file it with them, then wait for the Board to review it. Long story short, nearly sixty days later, I had a five way bypass and aortic valve replaced. Eight and one half hours surgery. Lucky I didn't die while waiting. I was a walking time bomb. A member of 35 years can't get their BA to get off their chair. Don't ask me what I think of unions. Steve |
Unions
Steve: I've heard that the Essence of Elegance is Simplicity. Your
response of "What planet are you posting from?" Wins my vote for one of the most Elegant responses of the year. Stu "SteveB" wrote in message ... "Tom Gardner" wrote in message t... "Millwright Ron" wrote in message ups.com... It always seems strange why anyone would chose to make less money,less benefits,less insurance,less retirement,less and less. Just how dumb does it take... Not to be able to realize the benefits of belong to a group that looks out for you and your family Union definition: snip WAY old-school way of thinking. The more progressive labor unions today partner with their company to achieve the pinnacle of safety, productivity, security and prosperity. Gone are the adversarial tensions. Gone are the days of a union protecting a marginal worker. A good company and a good employee want the same thing. It's the bull**** worker that hides behind union protection, and the unions aren't putting up with that crap anymore. What planet are you posting from? Steve |
Unions
On Nov 7, 7:48 am, "Tom Gardner" wrote:
"Millwright Ron" wrote in message oups.com... snip Unions provide the level playing field and the balance needed for justice. Employer organization's refer to union bosses' excesses. They ignore the excesses of the company bosses, their failures and their obscene pay, 130 times the average workers' pay. Why do we need Unions? Only an idiot refuses to see the writing's on the wall. " I will take the job if you will pay me two dollars per day" "No I do not need insurance" "Yes my wife will cook dinner for you tonight." "What time do I need to send over my little son for you private party" " Yes I will work for free on Saturday." Yes Sunday will be okay too!" "I need the job to feed my family"."Yes sir Supreme Boss of the America's" SKILLED ON PRINCIPLE ----- UNION BY CHOICE Union Millwright Ron = If you embrace that "Union" philosophy, you probably suck as a millwright and are a marginal employee that needs a high degree of protection to keep a job. I doubt you would keep a job very long with me and I don't want your wife's food or your son's ass. Nor, do I get 130 x base pay! You're a fool.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - When your intelligence level is equal to potato! You attack the Messenger instead of the message! Abraham Lincoln: The strongest bond of human sympathy outside the family relation should be one uniting working people of all nations and tongues and kindred's. Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if Labor had not first existed. Labor is superior to capital, and deserves much the higher consideration Dwight D. Eisenhower: Only a fool would try to deprive working men and working women of their right to join the union of their choice. Frank Lloyd Wright: If capitalism is fair then unionism must be. If men have a right to capitalize their ideas and the resources of their country, then that implies the right of men to capitalize their labor. Jimmy Carter: Every advance in this half-century-Social Security, civil rights, Medicare, aid to education, one after another-came with the support and leadership of American Labor. Martin Luther King, Jr.: In our glorious fight for civil rights, we must guard against being fooled by false slogans, as 'right-to-work.' It provides no 'rights' and no 'works.' Its purpose is to destroy labor unions and the freedom of collective bargaining... We demand this fraud be stopped. Pope Paul VI: The important role of union organizations must be admitted: their object is the representation of the various categories of workers, their lawful collaboration in the economic advance of society, and the development of the sense of their responsibility for the realization of the common good SKILLED ON PRINCIPLE ----- UNION BY CHOICE Millwright Ron |
Unions
On Nov 6, 6:52 pm, Millwright Ron
wrote: It always seems strange why anyone would chose to make less money,less benefits,less insurance,less retirement,less and less. Just how dumb does it take... Not to be able to realize the benefits of belong to a group that looks out for you and your family Union definition: "A combination so formed, especially an alliance or confederation of people, parties, or political entities for mutual interest or benefit" Every doctor,every lawyer,every teacher,every realtor,every police officer, every professional baseball payer,every professional football player,every professional basketball player,every professional umpire,every dentist belongs to a organization or association to that offers help and support to that individual or group. Our country is full of professional associations that take dues form their members. But if a worker joins a group to help themselves. That person becomes a low life dirty dog. This starts with industry and people who are ignorant of Unions and of the real work place. Jobs are moved over seas to the cheapest labor cost and less government control..... Does that mean that we who work with our hands,our brains and our hearts have to make third world wages? Does this mean that we have to work in a unsafe environment? Do we have to sacrifice our health, our bodies and our loved ones? There is always someone who will work cheaper, with less safety and less concern about our environment. Just look at big business..... The owners of mines,factories and companies who are fined or arrested each year for pollution,safety violations,harassment,lying,endangering their employees. The Coe's that steal hundreds of millions of dollars from their companies and stock holders. If you think Unions are corrupted? You hand better take a good look at big business. The IRS does? Today we need organization of Labor more than ever. Unions .... "The people who brought you the weekends" Union Millwright and Damn Proud Of It Ron Oliver You may be posting to the wrong group here Ron. This group seems to be composed of many self- styled "successes" therefore your message is wasted on them. Many here are of an adversarial bent, being managers, owners, or past managers (with a sprinkling of others thrown in) who have been successful enough in their previous en- devours to sit on their butts and attend trivial pursuits (like you and I). Not exactly your "Huddled masses" ehh? If you enjoy your posting (I do) after all the neg- ative responces and vilification (also notice the lack of people standing up in your defence) by others, continue to do so with the understanding that, in this group at least, you will be considered a troll. Sorry buddy, I know your actions come from good intentions but you can lead a horse....etc. dennis in nca |
Unions
On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 12:37:44 GMT, "Tom Gardner"
wrote: "azotic" wrote in message ... "Tom Gardner" wrote in message t... "Millwright Ron" wrote in message ups.com... It always seems strange why anyone would chose to make less money,less benefits,less insurance,less retirement,less and less. Just how dumb does it take... Not to be able to realize the benefits of belong to a group that looks out for you and your family Union definition: snip WAY old-school way of thinking. The more progressive labor unions today partner with their company to achieve the pinnacle of safety, productivity, security and prosperity. Gone are the adversarial tensions. Gone are the days of a union protecting a marginal worker. A good company and a good employee want the same thing. It's the bull**** worker that hides behind union protection, and the unions aren't putting up with that crap anymore. 1930's union rederick from a time when most workers didn't graduate the 8th grade. With global competition smart workers understand that education is the key to to secure well paying jobs. The reality is, long gone are the days of doing the same job for the same company for 40 years. As an employer i want smart people working with me and am more than happy to share the proffits with the people that make the company profitable for all of us. The ability to learn new skills is far more valuable than a union job when a robot eliminates that union job. People who invest thier hard earned money in continuing education instead of union dues will be the employable workers of the future. Best Regards Tom. I can remember when we had 80 employees, now I have 16 and our sales are more than double and profits are quadruple. AUTOMATION!!! And, we will be putting a new machine on line this month that eliminates an entire job but boosts the pay of everybody in that wook cell. Which reminds me...got you some more linear ways. Want em? Gunner Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical liberal minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. |
Unions
"Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "Tom Gardner" wrote in message . net... snip I can remember when we had 80 employees, now I have 16 and our sales are more than double and profits are quadruple. AUTOMATION!!! And, we will be putting a new machine on line this month that eliminates an entire job but boosts the pay of everybody in that wook cell. Careful, Tom. The next piece of automation that you put in may eliminate *you*. Be sure to read the fine print. d8-) -- Ed Huntress I'm old enough now that I plan just that! Not a machine but procedures and protocols properly followed and I shouldn't need to be here full time. One of my buds owns a fishing charter and could use a first mate. Another bud plays golf 7 times a week and could use a partner. One of my cousins has over 1,000 DVDs, and I have relatives all over the world that need unwelcome house guests. Get the picture? |
Unions
"Gunner Asch" wrote in message Which reminds me...got you some more linear ways. Want em? Gunner Do you still have my UPS and FedEx #s? |
Unions
"SteveB" wrote in message ... "Tom Gardner" wrote in message t... "Millwright Ron" wrote in message ups.com... It always seems strange why anyone would chose to make less money,less benefits,less insurance,less retirement,less and less. Just how dumb does it take... Not to be able to realize the benefits of belong to a group that looks out for you and your family Union definition: snip WAY old-school way of thinking. The more progressive labor unions today partner with their company to achieve the pinnacle of safety, productivity, security and prosperity. Gone are the adversarial tensions. Gone are the days of a union protecting a marginal worker. A good company and a good employee want the same thing. It's the bull**** worker that hides behind union protection, and the unions aren't putting up with that crap anymore. What planet are you posting from? Steve The unions have taken such a beating because of old-style thinking that they are at least starting to come around. I'm here in Cleveland where the small shops at least are thinking differently. |
Unions
"rigger" wrote in message oups.com... snip If you enjoy your posting (I do) after all the neg- ative responces and vilification (also notice the lack of people standing up in your defence) by others, continue to do so with the understanding that, in this group at least, you will be considered a troll. Oh, all right. You've embarrassed me into it. Ron has some good points. So does Harold. Harold would not have had the opportunity to reach the economic middle class without unions, which, as Ron says about the "prevailing wage," raised the wage bar for decades before Harold started to work, making it possible for him to make a decent income. Before unions gained strength in the US the "natural" balance of bargaining power kept most workers well below the middle class. That includes most skilled workers, except those who owned small businesses of their own. The middle class then was relatively small and consisted of professionals, merchants, some small business owners, higher-level bureaucrats and, by 1920 or so, white-collar managers. Unions established a new equilibrium that made the US a primarily middle-class economy. Discounting the top 5% of income-earners, the middle class was around 25% of the population in the 1920s but had reached 52% of the wage-earning population by 1950. The number could be higher or lower, depending on which definitions you accept, but these are numbers based on comparable definitions; the definitions of middle class don't matter for this comparison, in other words, because they're both based on the same shares of total national income. The relationships hold no matter how you define it. On the other hand, once unions had redressed the large bargaining advantage that capital had in the earlier days of our industrial economy, their warts and excesses started to be more noticeable and angered a lot of people. They look like more of a problem than a solution today, particularly at the by-enterprise (microeconomic) level, although their real negative effects are probably 'way overstated in terms of macroeconomic effects. It will be interesting to see what role they play as globalization expands and developing countries repeat the habits of early capitalism that existed here from 1870 - 1935 or so. The argument that unions have been a major cause of offshoring is nonsense, BTW. Wage relationships between developed and undeveloped countries would be the same without them: the wages in both types of economies would be a lot lower. -- Ed Huntress |
Unions
On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 09:53:51 -0800, rigger wrote:
On Nov 6, 6:52 pm, Millwright Ron wrote: It always seems strange why anyone would chose to make less money,less benefits,less insurance,less retirement,less and less. Just how dumb does it take... Not to be able to realize the benefits of belong to a group that looks out for you and your family Union definition: "A combination so formed, especially an alliance or confederation of people, parties, or political entities for mutual interest or benefit" Every doctor,every lawyer,every teacher,every realtor,every police officer, every professional baseball payer,every professional football player,every professional basketball player,every professional umpire,every dentist belongs to a organization or association to that offers help and support to that individual or group. Our country is full of professional associations that take dues form their members. But if a worker joins a group to help themselves. That person becomes a low life dirty dog. This starts with industry and people who are ignorant of Unions and of the real work place. Jobs are moved over seas to the cheapest labor cost and less government control..... Does that mean that we who work with our hands,our brains and our hearts have to make third world wages? Does this mean that we have to work in a unsafe environment? Do we have to sacrifice our health, our bodies and our loved ones? There is always someone who will work cheaper, with less safety and less concern about our environment. Just look at big business..... The owners of mines,factories and companies who are fined or arrested each year for pollution,safety violations,harassment,lying,endangering their employees. The Coe's that steal hundreds of millions of dollars from their companies and stock holders. If you think Unions are corrupted? You hand better take a good look at big business. The IRS does? Today we need organization of Labor more than ever. Unions .... "The people who brought you the weekends" Union Millwright and Damn Proud Of It Ron Oliver You may be posting to the wrong group here Ron. This group seems to be composed of many self- styled "successes" therefore your message is wasted on them. Many here are of an adversarial bent, being managers, owners, or past managers (with a sprinkling of others thrown in) who have been successful enough in their previous en- devours to sit on their butts and attend trivial pursuits (like you and I). Not exactly your "Huddled masses" ehh? If you enjoy your posting (I do) after all the neg- ative responces and vilification (also notice the lack of people standing up in your defence) by others, continue to do so with the understanding that, in this group at least, you will be considered a troll. Sorry buddy, I know your actions come from good intentions but you can lead a horse....etc. dennis in nca Im reminded of my first job after getting out of the military. Fisher Body. UAW. Making the same 5 spot welds for hours at a time, with all my co workers drunk, drugged, high, or hallucinating. Making really good money while turning out ****ty products. Some of my co workers to relieve the boredom, would do things like weld empty booze bottles or big loose ball bearings into inaccessable portions of the body with the hopes the "Rich *******s Would Go Crazy" hearing the various clanking, crunching, tinkling etc when they drove their new cars. And the stewards would grin, and turn a blind eye. My mom was the service manager for a Chevy dealership for a while..she had a nice collection of debris they fished out of brand new cars, debris installed at the factory. The coolest one was a Clabber Girl baking powder can, with some ball bearings in it, all neatly soldered closed. And the stewards would grin and turn a blind eye..... After 6 weeks, I figured Id either go postal (not a good thing for a recently returned combat vet) or cut my own wrists. So I quit my very nicely paying job and found another one where the people were sane, straight, normal and had self respect and pride. **** the Unions. They were once damned necessary. They might be necessary in some places today....though I cant think of any off hand. But when some ****** puffs up and starts singing the praises of the Unions today..I get an overwhelming urge to unzip and **** on his foot. Gunner Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical liberal minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. |
Unions
"Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... snip--- The argument that unions have been a major cause of offshoring is nonsense, BTW. Wage relationships between developed and undeveloped countries would be the same without them: the wages in both types of economies would be a lot lower. -- Ed Huntress Perhaps, but that's something none of us can know. I've long maintained that had workers here kept their cool and received pay in keeping with its value, it's possible the advantage in moving to other locations wouldn't have been great enough to warrant the move. I still think greed (at all levels) is the greatest contributor to our current dilemma. Rarely do you find people working for their real worth these days, and we're all paying the price for their actions through ever increasing costs of goods and services. Could be we're in for one hell of a lumpy ride now that it's running rampant and the dollar has been reduced in value to, what, 10 cents? Harold |
Unions
"Tom Gardner" wrote in message ... "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "Tom Gardner" wrote in message . net... snip I can remember when we had 80 employees, now I have 16 and our sales are more than double and profits are quadruple. AUTOMATION!!! And, we will be putting a new machine on line this month that eliminates an entire job but boosts the pay of everybody in that wook cell. Careful, Tom. The next piece of automation that you put in may eliminate *you*. Be sure to read the fine print. d8-) -- Ed Huntress I'm old enough now that I plan just that! Not a machine but procedures and protocols properly followed and I shouldn't need to be here full time. One of my buds owns a fishing charter and could use a first mate. Another bud plays golf 7 times a week and could use a partner. One of my cousins has over 1,000 DVDs, and I have relatives all over the world that need unwelcome house guests. Get the picture? Let's see...a golf-playing charter-boat mate who spends his days watching old movies and mooching off of his relatives. That may be an unusual idea of retirement, Tom, but we all have our own idea of how that should go. Best of luck to you in getting there. -- Ed Huntress |
Unions
"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message . net... "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... snip--- The argument that unions have been a major cause of offshoring is nonsense, BTW. Wage relationships between developed and undeveloped countries would be the same without them: the wages in both types of economies would be a lot lower. -- Ed Huntress Perhaps, but that's something none of us can know. I've long maintained that had workers here kept their cool and received pay in keeping with its value, it's possible the advantage in moving to other locations wouldn't have been great enough to warrant the move. I still think greed (at all levels) is the greatest contributor to our current dilemma. Rarely do you find people working for their real worth these days, and we're all paying the price for their actions through ever increasing costs of goods and services. Could be we're in for one hell of a lumpy ride now that it's running rampant and the dollar has been reduced in value to, what, 10 cents? Every year or so I ask you this question, but I don't remember ever getting a definitive answer: What is the "value" that's in keeping with what pay, Harold? What does it mean to be working for your "real worth"? What's the dollar value? How do you calculate it? Is there some natural process that determines how much pay you should get for a certain kind of work, or is it something else? -- Ed Huntress |
Unions
Gunner Asch wrote in
: snip But when some ****** puffs up and starts singing the praises of the Unions today..I get an overwhelming urge to unzip and **** on his foot. Gunner snip Don't do that, it might not be his job to get peeded on, better talk to his Steward... You might be taking away a hardworking union man's money.... Bill |
Unions
Gunner Asch wrote:
Im reminded of my first job after getting out of the military. Fisher Body. UAW. Making the same 5 spot welds for hours at a time, with all my co workers drunk, drugged, high, or hallucinating. Making really good money while turning out ****ty products. My adopta-dad worked for the Chrysler Kokomo, IN casting plant. He took a job that paid 7 cents less an hour but he could do in 4 hrs. It gave him time to sober up so he could do that job. He racked out in the locker room for the first 4 hours. He wasn't embarased about his drinking but he was a bit about 8 hrs pay for 4 hrs work. Wes |
Unions
"JR North" wrote in message .. . Unions-the people that destroyed the US Auto industry, and most other US based manufacturing businesses. Congrats, my last machine tool purchase was Chinese. JR Dweller in the cellar I do believe that you are at least partially correct. However, even without unions, how would US automakers be able to compete with countries that pay their workers forty dollars a week or forty dollars a month? As a country's wealth increases, its ability to compete with poor countries decreases. The unions didn't cause the situation, they only accelerated it. |
Unions
Tom Gardner wrote:
I can remember when we had 80 employees, now I have 16 and our sales are more than double and profits are quadruple. AUTOMATION!!! And, we will be putting a new machine on line this month that eliminates an entire job but boosts the pay of everybody in that wook cell. Isn't it what unions are actually worry about? Let's have simple math he 80 workers then == 80 profits, 16 workers now == 240 profits Where the rest of workers came to? To expand the manufacturing? It has to be expanded 20-fold with this level of performance increase. Does not happen. Or do they came to some other areas (thru re-education and so on)? So those areas has to expand 5-fold at least. Does not happen. So where? It's not like I advocate the unions or against or anything. Just want to understand - where those people are going to? C. |
Unions
Coyher wrote:
Tom Gardner wrote: I can remember when we had 80 employees, now I have 16 and our sales are more than double and profits are quadruple. AUTOMATION!!! And, we will be putting a new machine on line this month that eliminates an entire job but boosts the pay of everybody in that wook cell. Isn't it what unions are actually worry about? Let's have simple math he 80 workers then == 80 profits, 16 workers now == 240 profits Where the rest of workers came to? To expand the manufacturing? It has to be expanded 20-fold with this level of performance increase. Does not happen. Or do they came to some other areas (thru re-education and so on)? So those areas has to expand 5-fold at least. Does not happen. So where? It's not like I advocate the unions or against or anything. Just want to understand - where those people are going to? Tom is doing what he has to do to make his business succeed. He will most definitely keep the best employees and let go of the marginal ones. That's the difference between the US and Europe. The marginal ones will go on unemployment (which Tom will help subsidize) then they will find something else, but at that point it's not Tom's concern. Look at it this way... What is better, Tom keeping the plant open, paying taxes, and paying good employees well, or going out of business and not paying any employees or taxes? Times change. There's much gnashing of teeth in Rochester, NY, where thousands of Kodak employees thought they had jobs for life. Kodak couldn't keep them all on if it wanted to. What to do? People need to move, people need to be retrained or be smart and general enough to work anywhere. |
Unions
On Wed, 7 Nov 2007 15:31:35 -0600, with neither quill nor qualm, "Adam
Corolla" quickly quoth: "JR North" wrote in message . .. Unions-the people that destroyed the US Auto industry, and most other US based manufacturing businesses. Congrats, my last machine tool purchase was Chinese. JR Dweller in the cellar I do believe that you are at least partially correct. However, even without unions, how would US automakers be able to compete with countries that pay their workers forty dollars a week or forty dollars a month? Consider the billions they spent to build brand-new factories offshore. That cost a lot more than a year's difference in wages. As a country's wealth increases, its ability to compete with poor countries decreases. The unions didn't cause the situation, they only accelerated it. While both statements may be true, your minimalization of the damages that unions do is also noted. ----------------------------------------------------------------- When I die, I'm leaving my body to science fiction. --Steven Wright ---------------------------- |
Unions
"Stuart & Kathryn Fields" wrote in message .. . Steve: I've heard that the Essence of Elegance is Simplicity. Your response of "What planet are you posting from?" Wins my vote for one of the most Elegant responses of the year. Stu "SteveB" wrote in message ... "Tom Gardner" wrote in message t... "Millwright Ron" wrote in message ups.com... It always seems strange why anyone would chose to make less money,less benefits,less insurance,less retirement,less and less. Just how dumb does it take... Not to be able to realize the benefits of belong to a group that looks out for you and your family Union definition: snip WAY old-school way of thinking. The more progressive labor unions today partner with their company to achieve the pinnacle of safety, productivity, security and prosperity. Gone are the adversarial tensions. Gone are the days of a union protecting a marginal worker. A good company and a good employee want the same thing. It's the bull**** worker that hides behind union protection, and the unions aren't putting up with that crap anymore. What planet are you posting from? Steve I must apologize now in case it was someone's attempt at sarcasm and I missed it. If that is the case, all I can say is "DOH!" If not, and the post is sincere, my answer stands. Thanks for the kudos, although I don't know if they're deserved at this point or not. Steve |
Unions
An example of unionism mentality:
I worked I&D of conventions. That was installation and dismantling of exhibits up to 20,000 square feet. I was good at it. I couldn't figure out why I was not getting as many hours as others who worked at half the pace I did. Then I figured it out. The company would rather send TWO men for a day than one man who knew what he was doing, and could do it in 8 man hours. The union would rather have half wits doing the 8 hour shuffle than those who did the job in a reasonable amount of time. Double the dues for the union. Duh. So, I went back to driving a fork lift until retirement. There, it's performance based, and I was at the top of the heap. Steve |
Unions
On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 22:04:27 -0800, Millwright Ron wrote:
Dictators, like Hitler, know that to consolidate permanent power you first destroy the unions. I do believe that you have now triggered Godwin's Law. Our good conditions of employment came from union action over the past century. Yes. Emphasis on "past" and "century". Welcome to this one. Be useful or get out. |
Unions
Dunno, but paying unskilled union workers $30 an hour + bennies to screw
in refrigerator linings is precisely why Whirlpool (or whoever) packed up their refer plant and shipped the whole thing, lock, stock, and barrel to Mexico, wiping out the employment scene in the little factory town where it was. 1600 some-odd union leaches got the slip. JR Dweller in the cellar Ed Huntress wrote: "Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message . net... "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... snip--- The argument that unions have been a major cause of offshoring is nonsense, BTW. Wage relationships between developed and undeveloped countries would be the same without them: the wages in both types of economies would be a lot lower. -- Ed Huntress Perhaps, but that's something none of us can know. I've long maintained that had workers here kept their cool and received pay in keeping with its value, it's possible the advantage in moving to other locations wouldn't have been great enough to warrant the move. I still think greed (at all levels) is the greatest contributor to our current dilemma. Rarely do you find people working for their real worth these days, and we're all paying the price for their actions through ever increasing costs of goods and services. Could be we're in for one hell of a lumpy ride now that it's running rampant and the dollar has been reduced in value to, what, 10 cents? Every year or so I ask you this question, but I don't remember ever getting a definitive answer: What is the "value" that's in keeping with what pay, Harold? What does it mean to be working for your "real worth"? What's the dollar value? How do you calculate it? Is there some natural process that determines how much pay you should get for a certain kind of work, or is it something else? -- Ed Huntress -- -------------------------------------------------------------- Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes Doubt yourself, and the real world will eat you alive The world doesn't revolve around you, it revolves around me No skeletons in the closet; just decomposing corpses -------------------------------------------------------------- Dependence is Vulnerability: -------------------------------------------------------------- "Open the Pod Bay Doors please, Hal" "I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.." |
Unions
"JR North" wrote in message .. . Dunno, but paying unskilled union workers $30 an hour + bennies to screw in refrigerator linings is precisely why Whirlpool (or whoever) packed up their refer plant and shipped the whole thing, lock, stock, and barrel to Mexico, wiping out the employment scene in the little factory town where it was. 1600 some-odd union leaches got the slip. JR Dweller in the cellar And if Whirlpool was paying $20/hr, and their domestic competitors were paying $20/hr, that $1.75/hr they pay campesinos to leave the farm and work in border factories would still look awfully good. And if they dropped it to $10/hr, it would still look awfully good. If they dropped it to $5/hr, maybe they'd have to pay the campesinos $1.00/hr, but they'd still move. As Alan Tonelsen says, once you start competiting on the basis of wages with third-world countries, you're both in a race to the bottom. That's the whole reason US manufacturers supported NAFTA -- to get out of that nickel-and-dime battling and to make a quantum leap in cutting production costs. Now, if Whirlpool paid $10/hr and their domestic competitors were still paying $30/hr, they'd have something, eh? Then the race to the bottom is fought among the domestic competitors. Which we once had, and which wound up giving us company housing and the company store. Because once you have one of our periodic economic downturns and high unemployment, there's nothing to stop the fall -- except labor laws, minimum wages, and unions. Unions didn't cause Whirlpool to leave. Whirlpool could have moved years, maybe decades ago if that was the case. What caused them to leave was NAFTA and similar agreements that allow the free flow not only of goods, but also of capital. That's the big prize in globalization: winning the ability to move your capital and your production anywhere you can get cheaper wages and cheaper operating costs. That's not to say it's necessarily a bad thing. It is to say that there's nothing to save plants like that Whirlpool plant once goods and capital can move around freely. BTW, we lost a Whirlpool air-conditioner plant (which was part of White Consolidated at the end) about two miles from my house, for the same reason. Nothing in creation would have saved it, except that everyone who worked for them would work for minimum wage and start living in the back seats of their cars. -- Ed Huntress Ed Huntress wrote: "Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message . net... "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... snip--- The argument that unions have been a major cause of offshoring is nonsense, BTW. Wage relationships between developed and undeveloped countries would be the same without them: the wages in both types of economies would be a lot lower. -- Ed Huntress Perhaps, but that's something none of us can know. I've long maintained that had workers here kept their cool and received pay in keeping with its value, it's possible the advantage in moving to other locations wouldn't have been great enough to warrant the move. I still think greed (at all levels) is the greatest contributor to our current dilemma. Rarely do you find people working for their real worth these days, and we're all paying the price for their actions through ever increasing costs of goods and services. Could be we're in for one hell of a lumpy ride now that it's running rampant and the dollar has been reduced in value to, what, 10 cents? Every year or so I ask you this question, but I don't remember ever getting a definitive answer: What is the "value" that's in keeping with what pay, Harold? What does it mean to be working for your "real worth"? What's the dollar value? How do you calculate it? Is there some natural process that determines how much pay you should get for a certain kind of work, or is it something else? -- Ed Huntress -- -------------------------------------------------------------- Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes Doubt yourself, and the real world will eat you alive The world doesn't revolve around you, it revolves around me No skeletons in the closet; just decomposing corpses -------------------------------------------------------------- Dependence is Vulnerability: -------------------------------------------------------------- "Open the Pod Bay Doors please, Hal" "I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.." |
Unions
"Tom Gardner" wrote in message t... "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "Tom Gardner" wrote in message ... "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "Tom Gardner" wrote in message . net... snip I can remember when we had 80 employees, now I have 16 and our sales are more than double and profits are quadruple. AUTOMATION!!! And, we will be putting a new machine on line this month that eliminates an entire job but boosts the pay of everybody in that wook cell. Careful, Tom. The next piece of automation that you put in may eliminate *you*. Be sure to read the fine print. d8-) -- Ed Huntress I'm old enough now that I plan just that! Not a machine but procedures and protocols properly followed and I shouldn't need to be here full time. One of my buds owns a fishing charter and could use a first mate. Another bud plays golf 7 times a week and could use a partner. One of my cousins has over 1,000 DVDs, and I have relatives all over the world that need unwelcome house guests. Get the picture? Let's see...a golf-playing charter-boat mate who spends his days watching old movies and mooching off of his relatives. That may be an unusual idea of retirement, Tom, but we all have our own idea of how that should go. Best of luck to you in getting there. -- Ed Huntress Some day I come over and raid your wife's library! I'll probably get rid of a lot of it when I retire. There won't be any room in the cave I'll be living in. -- Ed Huntress |
Unions
"Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "Tom Gardner" wrote in message ... "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "Tom Gardner" wrote in message . net... snip I can remember when we had 80 employees, now I have 16 and our sales are more than double and profits are quadruple. AUTOMATION!!! And, we will be putting a new machine on line this month that eliminates an entire job but boosts the pay of everybody in that wook cell. Careful, Tom. The next piece of automation that you put in may eliminate *you*. Be sure to read the fine print. d8-) -- Ed Huntress I'm old enough now that I plan just that! Not a machine but procedures and protocols properly followed and I shouldn't need to be here full time. One of my buds owns a fishing charter and could use a first mate. Another bud plays golf 7 times a week and could use a partner. One of my cousins has over 1,000 DVDs, and I have relatives all over the world that need unwelcome house guests. Get the picture? Let's see...a golf-playing charter-boat mate who spends his days watching old movies and mooching off of his relatives. That may be an unusual idea of retirement, Tom, but we all have our own idea of how that should go. Best of luck to you in getting there. -- Ed Huntress Some day I come over and raid your wife's library! |
Unions
"Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "Tom Gardner" wrote in message t... snip----- Some day I come over and raid your wife's library! I'll probably get rid of a lot of it when I retire. There won't be any room in the cave I'll be living in. -- Ed Huntress Maybe you should join a union, Ed! :-) Harold |
Unions
"Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message . net... snip--- Perhaps, but that's something none of us can know. I've long maintained that had workers here kept their cool and received pay in keeping with its value, it's possible the advantage in moving to other locations wouldn't have been great enough to warrant the move. I still think greed (at all levels) is the greatest contributor to our current dilemma. Rarely do you find people working for their real worth these days, and we're all paying the price for their actions through ever increasing costs of goods and services. Could be we're in for one hell of a lumpy ride now that it's running rampant and the dollar has been reduced in value to, what, 10 cents? Every year or so I ask you this question, but I don't remember ever getting a definitive answer: What is the "value" that's in keeping with what pay, Harold? What does it mean to be working for your "real worth"? What's the dollar value? How do you calculate it? Is there some natural process that determines how much pay you should get for a certain kind of work, or is it something else? -- Ed Huntress Yes, Ed, I realize that I have never provided an answer, in part because I surely am not qualified to provide one-----but one thing is sure------there are workers that can lose their jobs to just about anyone off the street----and they're making wages far beyond those of people with years of experience in pursuing a skilled trade. I'm smart enough to know there's something wrong with that scene. How do you suppose that came about? For sake of conversation---I'll use a UPS driver. I'm sure they screen humanity for the "cream of the crop", and have decent people in their employ. I've talked with the local delivery people on occasion and have found each of them to be very polite, friendly, and you could probably add hard working to the list. They have no real skills-----and can be replaced by just about anyone. I dare say I could learn their job in a week, tops. Having said that, do you really think a truck driver, one that can be replaced by almost anyone that is capable of driving, is worth more pay than someone that has dedicated years to mastering a trade? Do you feel that a guy off the street can take the place of an experienced tool maker? Is it possible that one of these people has greater "resale value" than the other? It's not for me to assign values, but I'm sure as hell able to see when the price of some things is beyond worth. Minimum wage will top $8/hr in Washington first of next year. Do you really feel a kid filling drinks at a fast food restaurant is worth that kind of pay? As the wages keep getting driven ever higher by the bleeding heart democrats in this state, what they're managing to accomplish is to eliminate a certain portion of society from buying the products. How does industry, or society in general, benefit by that? Worst of all, it's helping questionable people think they can make a living without preparing themselves for the real world. Harold |
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