I got the itch for a grinder and learned that there was a Harbor Freight
place only 100 miles from work so I headed down there to buy of of these.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=46727

Well, I got there and from 20 feet away I liked it. At 1 foot I passed.
Darn display model had .020 or worse wobble as in flange not square to
shaft. Having bought a chinie grinder before that turned out to be lots of
iron and no electrics I wasn't too eager to get burned again.

Now likely I could have taken the wheel mounting flanges off and squared
them up off the machine or even in the machine but at that point I only had
16 bucks worth of gas in this thing for the round trip and decided to back
away quickly.

Anyway, I'm going to build my own now. I have a 1725 tefc motor, some
pillow block bearings, and chunk of ductile cast iron that I am going to
turn into a rotary lap that I'll charge with 1200 grit diamond paste to
finish the edges.

So what grit silicon carbide metal backed cup wheel should I buy?

Wes

Wes wrote:

I got the itch for a grinder and learned that there was a Harbor Freight
place only 100 miles from work so I headed down there to buy of of these.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=46727

Well, I got there and from 20 feet away I liked it. At 1 foot I passed.
Darn display model had .020 or worse wobble as in flange not square to
shaft. Having bought a chinie grinder before that turned out to be lots of
iron and no electrics I wasn't too eager to get burned again.

Now likely I could have taken the wheel mounting flanges off and squared
them up off the machine or even in the machine but at that point I only had
16 bucks worth of gas in this thing for the round trip and decided to back
away quickly.

Anyway, I'm going to build my own now. I have a 1725 tefc motor, some
pillow block bearings, and chunk of ductile cast iron that I am going to
turn into a rotary lap that I'll charge with 1200 grit diamond paste to
finish the edges.

So what grit silicon carbide metal backed cup wheel should I buy?

Wes

In a number of cases I've found the item in the crate to be notably
better than the item on display.

"Pete C." wrote:

In a number of cases I've found the item in the crate to be notably
better than the item on display.

That sure is poor marketing. I thought about asking them to grab a box and
let me inspect it but I was a bit tired and p*ssed seeing the display model
having driven 100 miles. I work mid nights and get a bit cranky by 10 am.

Wes

"Wes" wrote: (clip) I thought about asking them to grab a box and let me
inspect it but I was a bit tired and p*ssed (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
If you ever decide to go back to HF, stop a few blocks short and take a
little nap. By being tired and p*ssed, you scr*wed yourself. You drove 200
miles, used $16 worth of gas, and spent about 3 hours, and came away with
NOTHING. Quality control on the Chinese product at Harbor Freight is known
to be poor. Don't assume that what you see is what you get, unless it's the
exact same unit you're going to take home. If you don't want to take up
their time, go back to your car and open the box. HF is really good about
exchanging merchandise or giving refunds.

Just keep your receipt--DAMHIKT.

"Leo Lichtman" wrote:


"Wes" wrote: (clip) I thought about asking them to grab a box and let me
inspect it but I was a bit tired and p*ssed (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
If you ever decide to go back to HF, stop a few blocks short and take a
little nap. By being tired and p*ssed, you scr*wed yourself. You drove 200
miles, used $16 worth of gas, and spent about 3 hours, and came away with
NOTHING. Quality control on the Chinese product at Harbor Freight is known
to be poor. Don't assume that what you see is what you get, unless it's the
exact same unit you're going to take home. If you don't want to take up
their time, go back to your car and open the box. HF is really good about
exchanging merchandise or giving refunds.

Just keep your receipt--DAMHIKT.


Well, I take the long view on this. If I had ordered it, paid UPS on 102#
and didn't like it, I'd have been really p*ss*d and out the shipping. 16
bucks on gas was worth it.

Three blocks away was a tire store with 7 cop cars obviously interested in
something that morning. No way I was going to sleep in my car after that
one on the way in.

You are right that I should have asked for a box though and inspected it on
site. I have a 3/4 hp grinder out in the garage that I can stop with a
finger and not lose skin so I'm a bit leery of chinese grinders.

Wes

"Leo Lichtman" wrote:

You drove 200
miles, used $16 worth of gas, and spent about 3 hours, and came away with
NOTHING.

In my edits on this post I trimmed out some things.

I bought two of these
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=92486

for 15 bucks each. Handy for moving my 12x36 lathe around until I have it
restored and set and leveled.

Also I bought some rolling head pry bars. Damn handy things. It was not a
totally wasted trip.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=31382

Sadly they didn't have these in stock.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...temnumber=7929

If you ever buy some buy a pair, works out better.

Wes

"Wes" wrote in message
...
snip------

So what grit silicon carbide metal backed cup wheel should I buy?

You didn't make clear your intended application. Are you sure you want a
silicon carbide wheel?

Harold

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote:


"Wes" wrote in message
...
snip------

So what grit silicon carbide metal backed cup wheel should I buy?

You didn't make clear your intended application. Are you sure you want a
silicon carbide wheel?

Harold


Carbide scraper is primary use, brazed carbide lathe bits secondary.

Thanks,


Wes

"Wes" wrote in message
...
"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote:


"Wes" wrote in message
...
snip------

So what grit silicon carbide metal backed cup wheel should I buy?

You didn't make clear your intended application. Are you sure you want a
silicon carbide wheel?

Harold


Carbide scraper is primary use, brazed carbide lathe bits secondary.

Thanks,


Wes

Yep, silicon carbide it is, and a green one.
I'm not versed in scraping, but I've read that the edge should be
exceedingly keen----so you might entertain a very fine wheel, 150 grit or
even finer. Best yet would be a diamond, which won't chip the carbide.
You'd be pretty happy with a 220 diamond, which will move carbide fast and
leave a decent surface that is easily lapped to perfection. A diamond
wheel should be run wet, so keep that in mind.

Harold

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote:

Best yet would be a diamond, which won't chip the carbide.
You'd be pretty happy with a 220 diamond, which will move carbide fast and
leave a decent surface that is easily lapped to perfection. A diamond
wheel should be run wet, so keep that in mind.


By wet, is a steady drip okay vs a flood? The baldor and hf copies use a
cup that drips on the stone or wheel.

What is the difference between a resin bonded diamond and an electroplated
diamond wheel?

Thanks,

Wes

"Wes" wrote in message
...
"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote:

Best yet would be a diamond, which won't chip the carbide.
You'd be pretty happy with a 220 diamond, which will move carbide fast and
leave a decent surface that is easily lapped to perfection. A diamond
wheel should be run wet, so keep that in mind.


By wet, is a steady drip okay vs a flood? The baldor and hf copies use a
cup that drips on the stone or wheel.

Flood is recommended. It not only cools, it also keeps the surface clear of
contamination. If the drip isn't fast enough to keep the edge cool,
thermal shock is a consideration. They're always wheels, never stones.
Stones are used by hand, or in hones. That is, unless you have an old whet
stone.


What is the difference between a resin bonded diamond and an electroplated
diamond wheel?

Thanks,

Wes

Resinoid bonded wheels have a layer that is either 1/16" or 1/8" thick that
is filled with diamond bits of the prescribed grit size. Plated wheels
are just that------a thin layer of diamond that is held in place by
plating----if I'm not mistaken, nickel. They work fine, but have a short
life as compared to the thicker resinoid wheels. Most importantly, the
resinoid bonded wheels are much kinder to the carbide. It's virtually
impossible to chip carbide with such a wheel, unlike a metallic bonded
wheel, not to be confused with a plated wheel. There are such wheels
made for what is considered off-hand grinding of carbide. They're made the
same way resinoid wheels are in that they have diamond through the matrix,
again, 1/16" or 1/8" thick. My limited exposure to such a wheel left a
great deal to be desired. Said another way, there's no way in hell I'd buy
one. I'd choose a resinoid bonded wheel, hands down, even if I was offered
a metallic bonded wheel for free, but had to pay for the resinoid bonded
wheels. The difference in performance is stunning.

By the way, I've been using diamond wheels for more than 50 years now. A
wheel that used to cost about $600, when a dollar was still worth no less
than 50 cents, is now priced @ roughly $125, thanks to modern technology.
Wheels have come down well in price, in spite of the loss of buying power of
the dollar. Diamond wheels are a real bargain today.

Harold

On Fri, 26 Oct 2007 19:24:36 -0400, Wes wrote:

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote:


"Wes" wrote in message
...
snip------

So what grit silicon carbide metal backed cup wheel should I buy?

You didn't make clear your intended application. Are you sure you want a
silicon carbide wheel?

Harold


Carbide scraper is primary use, brazed carbide lathe bits secondary.

Thanks,


Wes


Use the finest bonded diamond wheel you can find. You don't need to remove
much material at all to refresh a scraper bit and you need to end up with a
mirror finish. Stay away from the silicon carbide!


regards
Mark Rand
RTFM

Mark Rand wrote:

Use the finest bonded diamond wheel you can find. You don't need to remove
much material at all to refresh a scraper bit and you need to end up with a
mirror finish. Stay away from the silicon carbide!

I roughed out the radius on one of the scrapers I am making last night
during break on a silicon carbide wheel at work. I wasn't impressed at all.
I'll buy the diamond wheel.

Thanks,

Wes

"Wes" wrote in message
...
Mark Rand wrote:

Use the finest bonded diamond wheel you can find. You don't need to remove
much material at all to refresh a scraper bit and you need to end up with
a
mirror finish. Stay away from the silicon carbide!

I roughed out the radius on one of the scrapers I am making last night
during break on a silicon carbide wheel at work. I wasn't impressed at
all.
I'll buy the diamond wheel.

Thanks,

Wes

Good choice. Mark knows of what he speaks!

I've always been underwhelmed by the performance of silicon carbide for
grinding tungsten carbide. If you look at the edge created, it's always
chipped, never smooth. How in hell is that supposed to work properly?

Harold

Wes wrote:
I got the itch for a grinder and learned that there was a Harbor Freight
place only 100 miles from work so I headed down there to buy of of these.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=46727

Well, I got there and from 20 feet away I liked it. At 1 foot I passed.
Darn display model had .020 or worse wobble as in flange not square to
shaft. Having bought a chinie grinder before that turned out to be lots of
iron and no electrics I wasn't too eager to get burned again.

Now likely I could have taken the wheel mounting flanges off and squared
them up off the machine or even in the machine but at that point I only had
16 bucks worth of gas in this thing for the round trip and decided to back
away quickly.

Anyway, I'm going to build my own now. I have a 1725 tefc motor, some
pillow block bearings, and chunk of ductile cast iron that I am going to
turn into a rotary lap that I'll charge with 1200 grit diamond paste to
finish the edges.

So what grit silicon carbide metal backed cup wheel should I buy?

Wes


I bought one of those a couple of years ago. I've been really happy
with mine. I've ground better lathe tools than I was ever able to do
before this machine. (That may just mean I don't have much ability, but
this machine really improved my efforts).

I did hook up a water supply and drain, but that is all I've done.

FWIW I recommend this grinder. From your experience, get one in a box!

John

On Oct 27, 7:11 am, Wes wrote:
I got the itch for a grinder and learned that there was a Harbor Freight
place only 100 miles from work so I headed down there to buy of of these.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=46727

Well, I got there and from 20 feet away I liked it. At 1 foot I passed.
Darn display model had .020 or worse wobble as in flange not square to
shaft. Having bought a chinie grinder before that turned out to be lots of
iron and no electrics I wasn't too eager to get burned again.

Now likely I could have taken the wheel mounting flanges off and squared
them up off the machine or even in the machine but at that point I only had
16 bucks worth of gas in this thing for the round trip and decided to back
away quickly.

Anyway, I'm going to build my own now. I have a 1725 tefc motor, some
pillow block bearings, and chunk of ductile cast iron that I am going to
turn into a rotary lap that I'll charge with 1200 grit diamond paste to
finish the edges.

So what grit silicon carbide metal backed cup wheel should I buy?

Wes

**** a Duck - you Yanks are totally up yourselves. Your complaining
the 149.50 tool grinder is not up to scratch.....JHC, what the **** do
you want for that? - do you expect a high precision industrial quality
instrument? - yeh, sure, if its a sale from the rust belt of US
manufacturing, else its totally worn out....wow, $16 for 200 miles in
gas cost - wish the rest of the world had it so cheap....

Mate, you well off, just too dumb to realise it.....


Andrew VK3BFA.

**** a Duck - you Yanks are totally up yourselves. Your complaining
the 149.50 tool grinder is not up to scratch.....JHC, what the **** do
you want for that? - do you expect a high precision industrial quality
instrument? - yeh, sure, if its a sale from the rust belt of US
manufacturing, else its totally worn out....wow, $16 for 200 miles in
gas cost - wish the rest of the world had it so cheap....

Mate, you well off, just too dumb to realise it.....

Andrew VK3BFA.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

As a bemused by-stander, I must agree. We have had it far too good for
far too long here. The decimation of the US industrial manufacturing
base
due to both poor response to global competition and the "WalMart"
consumer mentality in this country is staggering. In the area of
Chinese
tools, there is a lot to choose from, but it has now actually become
quite
difficult to distinguish in some cases what the actual country of
origin
may be, since so many US suppliers now outsource the "dirty work" to
China or other countries, then rebrand the item as their own. I am of
course guilty of buying from HF those items that don't have a high
level of criticality as I see it. I would never trust a Chinese 6"
caliper
to work as my only measuring tool, in constant use, but for occasional
use, my Chinese 12" dial caliper (at $39 or whatever the hell it was)
is
a good example of the "value" equation. One buys Chinese with the
full knowledge that quality is widely variable, repair may be needed
before first use, and safety is never paramount in the product. If you
can live with that, you have the opportunity to get some real deals,
and further the cause of US economic decline at the same time.

On Oct 27, 11:32 am, matt wrote:
**** a Duck - you Yanks are totally up yourselves. Your complaining
the 149.50 tool grinder is not up to scratch.....JHC, what the **** do
you want for that? - do you expect a high precision industrial quality
instrument? - yeh, sure, if its a sale from the rust belt of US
manufacturing, else its totally worn out....wow, $16 for 200 miles in
gas cost - wish the rest of the world had it so cheap....

Mate, you well off, just too dumb to realise it.....

Andrew VK3BFA.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

As a bemused by-stander, I must agree. We have had it far too good for
far too long here. The decimation of the US industrial manufacturing
base
due to both poor response to global competition and the "WalMart"
consumer mentality in this country is staggering. In the area of
Chinese
tools, there is a lot to choose from, but it has now actually become
quite
difficult to distinguish in some cases what the actual country of
origin
may be, since so many US suppliers now outsource the "dirty work" to
China or other countries, then rebrand the item as their own. I am of
course guilty of buying from HF those items that don't have a high
level of criticality as I see it. I would never trust a Chinese 6"
caliper
to work as my only measuring tool, in constant use, but for occasional
use, my Chinese 12" dial caliper (at $39 or whatever the hell it was)
is
a good example of the "value" equation. One buys Chinese with the
full knowledge that quality is widely variable, repair may be needed
before first use, and safety is never paramount in the product. If you
can live with that, you have the opportunity to get some real deals,
and further the cause of US economic decline at the same time.

The post of the day...excellent assessment of the situation.

We are the enemy.

TMT

Too_Many_Tools wrote:

We are the enemy.

TMT


No. You got that wrong.
" We have met the enemy and he is us "
Pogo

...lew...

On Sat, 27 Oct 2007 16:44:25 -0600, with neither quill nor qualm, Lew
Hartswick quickly quoth:

Too_Many_Tools wrote:

We are the enemy.

TMT


No. You got that wrong.
" We have met the enemy and he is us "
Pogo

I don't think he was quoting Pogo, Lew. I think too_many_trolls simply
misspelled "enema".

--
We have to fight them daily, like fleas, those many small
worries about the morrow, for they sap our energies.
-- Etty Hillesum

On Sat, 27 Oct 2007 14:15:38 -0700, Too_Many_Tools
wrote:

On Oct 27, 11:32 am, matt wrote:
**** a Duck - you Yanks are totally up yourselves. Your complaining
the 149.50 tool grinder is not up to scratch.....JHC, what the **** do
you want for that? - do you expect a high precision industrial quality
instrument? - yeh, sure, if its a sale from the rust belt of US
manufacturing, else its totally worn out....wow, $16 for 200 miles in
gas cost - wish the rest of the world had it so cheap....

Mate, you well off, just too dumb to realise it.....

Andrew VK3BFA.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

As a bemused by-stander, I must agree. We have had it far too good for
far too long here. The decimation of the US industrial manufacturing
base
due to both poor response to global competition and the "WalMart"
consumer mentality in this country is staggering. In the area of
Chinese
tools, there is a lot to choose from, but it has now actually become
quite
difficult to distinguish in some cases what the actual country of
origin
may be, since so many US suppliers now outsource the "dirty work" to
China or other countries, then rebrand the item as their own. I am of
course guilty of buying from HF those items that don't have a high
level of criticality as I see it. I would never trust a Chinese 6"
caliper
to work as my only measuring tool, in constant use, but for occasional
use, my Chinese 12" dial caliper (at $39 or whatever the hell it was)
is
a good example of the "value" equation. One buys Chinese with the
full knowledge that quality is widely variable, repair may be needed
before first use, and safety is never paramount in the product. If you
can live with that, you have the opportunity to get some real deals,
and further the cause of US economic decline at the same time.

The post of the day...excellent assessment of the situation.

We are the enemy.

Not me, I'd make my own *shoes* if there were more hours in the day.
I've found more than a few times that even my first half-assed
attempts at making stuff I need works out far better than the crap on
offer most places these days.

wrote:

**** a Duck - you Yanks are totally up yourselves. Your complaining
the 149.50 tool grinder is not up to scratch.....JHC, what the **** do
you want for that? - do you expect a high precision industrial quality
instrument? - yeh, sure, if its a sale from the rust belt of US
manufacturing, else its totally worn out....wow, $16 for 200 miles in
gas cost - wish the rest of the world had it so cheap....

Mate, you well off, just too dumb to realise it.....

Got your knickers in a twist today?

The taxes on fuel in your country are helping to pay for your social support
systems. If you don't like it, change it via the political process.

In no way did I expect the HF item to be equal to a baldor tool grinder but
when the display version is just plain horrible, I don't expect better out
of the sealed box.

And yes, I do know I am lucky to live in the United States. I have had the
opportunity to live in parts of Europe and Asia along with visiting Canada
and Mexico and I'll take this country every time.

Wes

For $150, you can buy a used Baldor 500 diamond grinder from a small
shop that likely did not use it that much.

i

Ignoramus2057 wrote:

For $150, you can buy a used Baldor 500 diamond grinder from a small
shop that likely did not use it that much.

i

I'll take it if it can be shiped ups.

Wes

On 2007-10-27, Wes wrote:
Ignoramus2057 wrote:

For $150, you can buy a used Baldor 500 diamond grinder from a small
shop that likely did not use it that much.

i

I'll take it if it can be shiped ups.


You would have to go and pick it up from an auction, for this price.

They are, however, shippable by UPS (without stands) and sell for
about $250 on eBay.

Hard to go wrong with a Baldor 500.

I do not have one currently.

i

On Oct 27, 2:35 pm, Ignoramus2057
wrote:
For $150, you can buy a used Baldor 500 diamond grinder from a small
shop that likely did not use it that much.

i

Not if anyone else is at the auction.

The Baldor diamond grinders maintain their value.

That is why the Chinese chose them as an item to copy.

The same goes for Emco lathes were the model for the common Chinese
lathe.

It is almost a badge of honor to be chosen by the Chinese as the tool
to be copied....and as they take market share from you.

TMT

On 2007-10-27, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
On Oct 27, 2:35 pm, Ignoramus2057
wrote:
For $150, you can buy a used Baldor 500 diamond grinder from a small
shop that likely did not use it that much.

i

Not if anyone else is at the auction.

The Baldor diamond grinders maintain their value.

That is why the Chinese chose them as an item to copy.

The same goes for Emco lathes were the model for the common Chinese
lathe.

It is almost a badge of honor to be chosen by the Chinese as the tool
to be copied....and as they take market share from you.

Around here, that's what they go for. I would prefer a used baldor to
a new HF grinder, though they are reportedly pretty good.

i

On Oct 27, 2:19 pm, Too_Many_Tools wrote:

Not if anyone else is at the auction.

The Baldor diamond grinders maintain their value.


TMT

I certainly have to agree. Having been to a number of auctions in
Arizona, I am amazed at the prices fetched by Baldor pedestal
grinders (not even the tool grinders under discussion). I have seen
Baldor 7" grinders, quite well used and missing a tool rest, go for
more than $300 at large industrial auctions, for chrissakes. Of
course, this same auction mentality can be seen at work on
other items as well. Total lack of value calculation on the part of
the bidders, when you can buy the same thing new for less than
$500 on a good sale (not to mention the imported competition).

BTW, I bought my Jet 8" bench grinder through Amazon(!) Great
deal with free shipping. The Jet unit, in my personal experience
having outfitted the shop at (former) workplace about 15 yrs. ago,
is terrifically durable, and very good quality. No real plug intended,
just observation --

On Oct 28, 4:34 am, Wes wrote:
wrote:
**** a Duck - you Yanks are totally up yourselves. Your complaining
the 149.50 tool grinder is not up to scratch.....JHC, what the **** do
you want for that? - do you expect a high precision industrial quality
instrument? - yeh, sure, if its a sale from the rust belt of US
manufacturing, else its totally worn out....wow, $16 for 200 miles in
gas cost - wish the rest of the world had it so cheap....

Mate, you well off, just too dumb to realise it.....

Got your knickers in a twist today?

Yep. Sorry, I put that badly - due to our small market, such a tool
grinder would be hundreds of dollars more - and I dont think such a
thing is even on the market here due to lack of demand. So, I freehand
grind my toolbits - would be so much easier if I had one of those
grinders....(envy, pure and simple, at the cheapness of tools in the
US)

The taxes on fuel in your country are helping to pay for your social support
systems. If you don't like it, change it via the political process.

Nope. We like it - subsidized medicine, decent health care -, the
ability to support "our friends the Americans" in their foreign
military adventures - you were the one complaining about the fuel cost
- maybe if your taxes were reduced, it would be at a level you thought
reasonable.



In no way did I expect the HF item to be equal to a baldor tool grinder but
when the display version is just plain horrible, I don't expect better out
of the sealed box.

Wow - did you expect the minimum wage shop assistant to be able to
tell if it was out of true? - probably didnt even know what it was
apart from reading the label on the box....and for the price, maybe it
did need some work. Whole groups are devoted to fixing the faults in
Chinese machine tools - American ingenuity will find a way, surely.

And yes, I do know I am lucky to live in the United States. I have had the
opportunity to live in parts of Europe and Asia along with visiting Canada
and Mexico and I'll take this country every time.

Wes
No worries - glad your happy with your country (as you should be), I
must have misread your post as a complaint about how things were not
working too well in this instance...

wrote:

Got your knickers in a twist today?

Yep. Sorry, I put that badly - due to our small market, such a tool
grinder would be hundreds of dollars more - and I dont think such a
thing is even on the market here due to lack of demand. So, I freehand
grind my toolbits - would be so much easier if I had one of those
grinders....(envy, pure and simple, at the cheapness of tools in the
US)

I take it that Chinese imports have not found your country? With the change
over to cnc didn't that free up a lot of manual equipment?


The taxes on fuel in your country are helping to pay for your social support
systems. If you don't like it, change it via the political process.

Nope. We like it - subsidized medicine, decent health care -, the
ability to support "our friends the Americans" in their foreign
military adventures - you were the one complaining about the fuel cost
- maybe if your taxes were reduced, it would be at a level you thought
reasonable.

Oh, I wasn't complaining about the price of fuel. My little road muffin
gets 36mpg. If our EPA regs were not biased against diesels I'd like have a
small one similar to what is sold in your country. I drive 70 miles daily
for a work commute and have long ago given up driving a truck carrying
little for economy.




In no way did I expect the HF item to be equal to a baldor tool grinder but
when the display version is just plain horrible, I don't expect better out
of the sealed box.

Wow - did you expect the minimum wage shop assistant to be able to
tell if it was out of true? - probably didnt even know what it was
apart from reading the label on the box....and for the price, maybe it
did need some work. Whole groups are devoted to fixing the faults in
Chinese machine tools - American ingenuity will find a way, surely.

You are probably right. Likely not a person in the store that would / could
actually use some of this stuff. I think I'll apply ingenuity to building
something out of the junk box.


And yes, I do know I am lucky to live in the United States. I have had the
opportunity to live in parts of Europe and Asia along with visiting Canada
and Mexico and I'll take this country every time.

Wes
No worries - glad your happy with your country (as you should be), I
must have misread your post as a complaint about how things were not
working too well in this instance...

It was a bit depressing to see how much crap is sold to Americans w/o a clue
from that chain of stores. The flip side is that if China is still sending
stuff out like this then we still have a chance to save manufacturing here
in the states.

73

Wes KC8SPR

On Oct 28, 11:37 pm, Wes wrote:
wrote:


I take it that Chinese imports have not found your country? With the change
over to cnc didn't that free up a lot of manual equipment?

It did. The small local engineering shop is, by and large, gone. Even
the BIG engineering shops are gone too. The former sites are now
"Shopping Malls" with "Boutique Apartments" - Vickers-Ruwolt had a
huge site , half a suburb, machinery that could make propshafts and
gears for ships.....its local to me, most of the site is taken up with
an IKEA store. Whoopee - putting together an IKEA chair is not the
same feeling of satisfaction as building a bridge, or a ship, or a
locomotive...

Yes, most of the stuff here is Chinese - the X2 and X3 mills, the 9 by
20 lathe - it will be a long time before I can exceed the capabilities
of these machines. The HF toolgrinder you describe - no, not enough
demand, so no one imports them. Would love to have one, even with the
faults you describe.

The $30 DVD player, the $100 TV set - we are awash with them.....all
going to landfill when they die.....any life over 3 years is a bonus,
and with a 12 month warranty on them anyway there GREAT value. If you
can mentally cope with the throw away attitude.

The paradox here is that the Chinese are making world class gear -
lets face it, they have just launched a moon shot, (you cannot make
one of them with a mini-mill.), have put a man in space. Supersonic
jet fighters, ICBM's, nuclear power plants, advanced semiconductors -
they do it all.

BUT - they are perfectly happy to make a dollar building crap for the
likes of (insert store name here) who get good margins on it. And
maybe the HF grinder you describe is in that category - the price
screwed down so much, they couldnt/wouldnt be bothered setting it up
properley...who knows? Most of the problems in the lathes and mills
seem to be lack of attention to detail, lack of time spent in fitting
to tolerance and can be fixed with a bit (or a lot) of work.


You are probably right. Likely not a person in the store that would / could
actually use some of this stuff. I think I'll apply ingenuity to building
something out of the junk box.

If you have the skills to do it, great - at this stage in my learning
curve, I don't. In time, perhaps. And yes, thats another thing about
these wonderful cheap stores - no way in a fit are they going to find,
or pay, someone with enough trade skills to be able to do it properly,
defect the faulty ones before they go out the door.. Exception will
be the old timers who are redundant from manufacturing and trying to
eke out a living till retirement.

And stores don't like employing them either - they tend to have short
tolerance of 30yo idiots with MBA's., and their conscience pricks them
when told to sell obvious junk....


It was a bit depressing to see how much crap is sold to Americans w/o a clue
from that chain of stores. The flip side is that if China is still sending
stuff out like this then we still have a chance to save manufacturing here
in the states.

Not sure there - a whole generation has been conditioned to throw away
junk at low prices - and the prevailing orthodoxy in the marketplace
seems to embrace this concept. I am a consumer service tech, its my
generation (ie, the over 50's) who still have the mindset of getting
things repaired. Anyone younger, they bin it, go get a new one....

And whats happened to the skilled workers who used to run
manufacturing, here and there in your country. Mowing lawns, low paid
low skill jobs to eke out a living after being made redundant. And
VERY ****ed with whats been done to their country. .Sure, you can go
out and buy new precision machinery, set up a factory again. But the
generational skills of trade, of attitude, of pride in workmanship
that were passed down from Master to Apprentice - I fear that they
have been lost. It would be very difficult to build up that skills
base again. And I fear that, long term, it will be to our cost. Thank
heavens people like Harold etc are computer literate and can pass on
some of those skills in this forum.

73

Wes KC8SPR

73 de VK3BFA Andrew.

Wes wrote:

wrote:


Got your knickers in a twist today?

Yep. Sorry, I put that badly - due to our small market, such a tool
grinder would be hundreds of dollars more - and I dont think such a
thing is even on the market here due to lack of demand. So, I freehand
grind my toolbits - would be so much easier if I had one of those
grinders....(envy, pure and simple, at the cheapness of tools in the
US)


I take it that Chinese imports have not found your country? With the change
over to cnc didn't that free up a lot of manual equipment?


The taxes on fuel in your country are helping to pay for your social support
systems. If you don't like it, change it via the political process.

Nope. We like it - subsidized medicine, decent health care -, the
ability to support "our friends the Americans" in their foreign
military adventures - you were the one complaining about the fuel cost
- maybe if your taxes were reduced, it would be at a level you thought
reasonable.


Oh, I wasn't complaining about the price of fuel. My little road muffin
gets 36mpg. If our EPA regs were not biased against diesels I'd like have a
small one similar to what is sold in your country. I drive 70 miles daily
for a work commute and have long ago given up driving a truck carrying
little for economy.



In no way did I expect the HF item to be equal to a baldor tool grinder but
when the display version is just plain horrible, I don't expect better out
of the sealed box.

Wow - did you expect the minimum wage shop assistant to be able to
tell if it was out of true? - probably didnt even know what it was
apart from reading the label on the box....and for the price, maybe it
did need some work. Whole groups are devoted to fixing the faults in
Chinese machine tools - American ingenuity will find a way, surely.


You are probably right. Likely not a person in the store that would / could
actually use some of this stuff. I think I'll apply ingenuity to building
something out of the junk box.


And yes, I do know I am lucky to live in the United States. I have had the
opportunity to live in parts of Europe and Asia along with visiting Canada
and Mexico and I'll take this country every time.

Wes

No worries - glad your happy with your country (as you should be), I
must have misread your post as a complaint about how things were not
working too well in this instance...


It was a bit depressing to see how much crap is sold to Americans w/o a clue
from that chain of stores. The flip side is that if China is still sending
stuff out like this then we still have a chance to save manufacturing here
in the states.

73

Wes KC8SPR




The Japanese stuff went through the same cycle in the fifties. People
all talked about the stuff like the Chinese stuff is talked about today.
The thing is though that a lot of the stuff is good, some of the stuff
is very good, and did I say inexpensive. You just have to check the
stuff out very carefuly before you buy it.


John

On Sat, 27 Oct 2007 06:22:58 -0700, wrote:

**** a Duck - you Yanks are totally up yourselves. Your complaining
the 149.50 tool grinder is not up to scratch.....JHC, what the **** do
you want for that? - do you expect a high precision industrial quality
instrument? - yeh, sure, if its a sale from the rust belt of US
manufacturing, else its totally worn out....wow, $16 for 200 miles in
gas cost - wish the rest of the world had it so cheap....

Mate, you well off, just too dumb to realise it.....


Andrew VK3BFA.
That's why we celebrate "thanksgiving".
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

Gerald Miller wrote:

On Sat, 27 Oct 2007 06:22:58 -0700, wrote:

**** a Duck - you Yanks are totally up yourselves. Your complaining
the 149.50 tool grinder is not up to scratch.....JHC, what the **** do
you want for that? - do you expect a high precision industrial quality
instrument? - yeh, sure, if its a sale from the rust belt of US
manufacturing, else its totally worn out....wow, $16 for 200 miles in
gas cost - wish the rest of the world had it so cheap....

Mate, you well off, just too dumb to realise it.....


Andrew VK3BFA.
That's why we celebrate "thanksgiving".
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

It's why WE celebrate the 4th of July.

jk