Maybe this isn't the right group, but I can't find the right one, so
appologies in advance if this is OT.

I'm trying to build some Leyden jars
http://chem.ch.huji.ac.il/~eugeniik/instruments/archaic/leyden_jars.htm .

A Leyden Jar is basically an insulating container (glass, plastic) with a
thin coating of a metal conductor on the inside and the outside.

Normally, you apply a metal foil both inside and outside the container.

But... I want to build these inside wine bottles, so I can't reach in and
apply a coating by hand.

I've thought about metallic paint - thinning it and swishing it around.
Something like this: http://www.lessemf.com/292.html . I've though
about electroplating, but that doesn't seem practical.

To prevent sparking, the coating needs to stop about 1/3 of the way from
the top of the jar.

Any suggestions for coating the inside of a container with a conductive
film, without actually reaching in? Oh, and this is being done on a
shoe-string budget, so expensive solutions are out....

TIA,

--Kamus

"Kamus of Kadizhar" wrote in message
news
Maybe this isn't the right group, but I can't find the right one, so
appologies in advance if this is OT.

I'm trying to build some Leyden jars
http://chem.ch.huji.ac.il/~eugeniik/instruments/archaic/leyden_jars.htm
..

A Leyden Jar is basically an insulating container (glass, plastic) with a
thin coating of a metal conductor on the inside and the outside.

Normally, you apply a metal foil both inside and outside the container.

But... I want to build these inside wine bottles, so I can't reach in and
apply a coating by hand.

I've thought about metallic paint - thinning it and swishing it around.
Something like this: http://www.lessemf.com/292.html . I've though
about electroplating, but that doesn't seem practical.

To prevent sparking, the coating needs to stop about 1/3 of the way from
the top of the jar.

Any suggestions for coating the inside of a container with a conductive
film, without actually reaching in? Oh, and this is being done on a
shoe-string budget, so expensive solutions are out....

Why not just cut the tops off the bottles to make jars? Spray-on conductive
paint is available for coating plastic, I think it contains nickel
particles. You might be able to adapt an aerosol can to spray inside the
bottles.

Leon
--
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

You offered a reference which states that the classic Leyden jar used a
liquid inner "plate" with a connecting wire dangling into it.

Do you have a weight limit or some other requirement which makes you
need to use a conducting film rather than just filling the wine bottles
with water, and maybe some salt in the water for good measure?

But, if you really need to use a coating, then Google up "Aquadag". It's
a black conductive coating which can be painted on glass. IIRC the
outsides of some CRT envelopes used to be covered with the stuff. It
felt like it might of had a lot of carbon powder in it. You could
probably pour it in and out of your wine bottles to get what you want.

Good Luck,

Jeff
--

Jeff Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"If you can smile when things are going wrong, you've thought of someone
to blame it on."


Kamus of Kadizhar wrote:
Maybe this isn't the right group, but I can't find the right one, so
appologies in advance if this is OT.

I'm trying to build some Leyden jars
http://chem.ch.huji.ac.il/~eugeniik/instruments/archaic/leyden_jars.htm .

A Leyden Jar is basically an insulating container (glass, plastic) with a
thin coating of a metal conductor on the inside and the outside.

Normally, you apply a metal foil both inside and outside the container.

But... I want to build these inside wine bottles, so I can't reach in and
apply a coating by hand.

I've thought about metallic paint - thinning it and swishing it around.
Something like this: http://www.lessemf.com/292.html . I've though
about electroplating, but that doesn't seem practical.

To prevent sparking, the coating needs to stop about 1/3 of the way from
the top of the jar.

Any suggestions for coating the inside of a container with a conductive
film, without actually reaching in? Oh, and this is being done on a
shoe-string budget, so expensive solutions are out....

TIA,

--Kamus

In article ,
Kamus of Kadizhar wrote:

Maybe this isn't the right group, but I can't find the right one, so
appologies in advance if this is OT.

I'm trying to build some Leyden jars
http://chem.ch.huji.ac.il/~eugeniik/instruments/archaic/leyden_jars.htm .

A Leyden Jar is basically an insulating container (glass, plastic) with a
thin coating of a metal conductor on the inside and the outside.

When you get right down to where the rubber meets the road, a Leyden Jar
is a primitive, but quite effective, medium-high value capacitor.

Any suggestions for coating the inside of a container with a conductive
film, without actually reaching in? Oh, and this is being done on a
shoe-string budget, so expensive solutions are out....

Too easy:
Make yourself a saturated salt solution (Water, plus as much plain old
table salt as can be disolved in it) and fill the bottle to the desired
level. Sal****er is a good conductor - at least as good as, sometimes
better than, any foil you might apply. Now wrap your bottle in tinfoil,
as smoothly as possible. Push a metal stud of some sort (Brass would
probably be best, longevity-wise, but just about anything will do in the
short term) long enough to make contact with the salt water inside the
bottle through a rubber stopper, and put the stopper in the bottle. If
you're looking to parallel them, pack a few of them together in a box of
some sort lined with tinfoil, and "bus-bar" the stopper terminals
together. The end of the bus bar is one terminal, the tinfoil on the
bottom of the box is your other terminal.

Pretty standard design for low-dollar tesla coils, which need *BIG* caps.

Note: It's *MUCH* easier to tune bottles that don't taper - Tapered
bottles can get screwy when trying to tune them to a specific value
(which is done by raising/lowering the level of sla****er inside them.
The taper really messes with accuracy)

--
Don Bruder - - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004.
I respond to Email as quick as humanly possible. If you Email me and get no
response, see http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html Short
form: I'm trashing EVERYTHING that doesn't contain a password in the subject.

On Fri, 28 May 2004 15:04:19 +0100, Leon Heller wrote:

Why not just cut the tops off the bottles to make jars? Spray-on conductive
paint is available for coating plastic, I think it contains nickel
particles. You might be able to adapt an aerosol can to spray inside the
bottles.

Well, I want the look of the wine bottles with the long necks. If
it was easy, anyone could do it.... :-)

--Kamus

In article ,
Jeff Wisnia wrote:

You offered a reference which states that the classic Leyden jar used a
liquid inner "plate" with a connecting wire dangling into it.

Do you have a weight limit or some other requirement which makes you
need to use a conducting film rather than just filling the wine bottles
with water, and maybe some salt in the water for good measure?

But, if you really need to use a coating, then Google up "Aquadag". It's
a black conductive coating which can be painted on glass. IIRC the

You must not have noticed the "shoestring budget" statement - Aquadag is
expensive with a capital !EXPENSIVE! in anything short of traincar-load
lots. Last time I looked (several years ago, admittedly) 60+ bucks for a
half-pint jar was the going rate. When I asked what was in it to make it
so expensive, the response was "We don't want to mess around with
hobby-level buyers, so we try to discourage them by pricing it high in
small quantities. For industrial users buying multi-hundred-gallon lots,
it's quite cheap."

--
Don Bruder - - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004.
I respond to Email as quick as humanly possible. If you Email me and get no
response, see http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html Short
form: I'm trashing EVERYTHING that doesn't contain a password in the subject.

On Fri, 28 May 2004 10:15:42 -0400, Jeff Wisnia wrote:

You offered a reference which states that the classic Leyden jar used a
liquid inner "plate" with a connecting wire dangling into it.

Do you have a weight limit or some other requirement which makes you
need to use a conducting film rather than just filling the wine bottles
with water, and maybe some salt in the water for good measure?

I thought about that, but I couldn't find any more about the "liquid".
I thought about salt water too... It would be kind of cool. Of course,
figure these things will be charged up to maybe 100KV so the thought of
salt water doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy.... But at worst it will
knock me on my butt....

But, if you really need to use a coating, then Google up "Aquadag". It's
a black conductive coating which can be painted on glass. IIRC the
outsides of some CRT envelopes used to be covered with the stuff. It
felt like it might of had a lot of carbon powder in it. You could
probably pour it in and out of your wine bottles to get what you want.

Cool, thanks.

--Kamus

Don Bruder wrote in
:

You must not have noticed the "shoestring budget" statement - Aquadag is
expensive with a capital !EXPENSIVE! in anything short of traincar-load
lots. Last time I looked (several years ago, admittedly) 60+ bucks for a
half-pint jar was the going rate.

It's the cheapest commercial product I know of -- 2 pounds for under $40:
http://www.macbicnj.com/glsblwequip/18820.htm
All the other paints are metallic colloids, and the same $40 will only get
you a few ounces of paint.

Kamus of Kadizhar wrote:

On Fri, 28 May 2004 10:15:42 -0400, Jeff Wisnia wrote:



You offered a reference which states that the classic Leyden jar used a
liquid inner "plate" with a connecting wire dangling into it.

Do you have a weight limit or some other requirement which makes you
need to use a conducting film rather than just filling the wine bottles
with water, and maybe some salt in the water for good measure?



I thought about that, but I couldn't find any more about the "liquid".
I thought about salt water too... It would be kind of cool. Of course,
figure these things will be charged up to maybe 100KV so the thought of
salt water doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy.... But at worst it will
knock me on my butt....



But, if you really need to use a coating, then Google up "Aquadag". It's
a black conductive coating which can be painted on glass. IIRC the
outsides of some CRT envelopes used to be covered with the stuff. It
felt like it might of had a lot of carbon powder in it. You could
probably pour it in and out of your wine bottles to get what you want.



Cool, thanks.

--Kamus


Look up info on silver plating mirrors, more specifically "Breshams
solution " and correct my spelling
as I know that is not spelled correctly.

Bill K7NOM

On Fri, 28 May 2004 14:50:21 +0000, Don Bruder wrote:

You must not have noticed the "shoestring budget" statement - Aquadag is
expensive with a capital !EXPENSIVE! in anything short of traincar-load
lots. Last time I looked (several years ago, admittedly) 60+ bucks for a
half-pint jar was the going rate. When I asked what was in it to make it
so expensive, the response was "We don't want to mess around with
hobby-level buyers, so we try to discourage them by pricing it high in
small quantities. For industrial users buying multi-hundred-gallon lots,
it's quite cheap."

Actually, I found it for $40/2#; not quite cheap but certainly in line
with other conductive paints I've found.
http://www.macbicnj.com/glsblwequip/18820.htm

I'm not really too hot to trot on the $900/ 1/2 oz. price for gold paint....

--Kamus

Take a look at the Repair paint they use on rear window defroster in
your car. its a conductive paint, so it could be thinned and applied to
the inside of the bottles. should be available at most auto part store.
http://www.growinglifestyle.com/article/s0/a670635.html

Kamus of Kadizhar wrote:
Maybe this isn't the right group, but I can't find the right one, so
appologies in advance if this is OT.

I'm trying to build some Leyden jars
http://chem.ch.huji.ac.il/~eugeniik/instruments/archaic/leyden_jars.htm .

A Leyden Jar is basically an insulating container (glass, plastic) with a
thin coating of a metal conductor on the inside and the outside.

Normally, you apply a metal foil both inside and outside the container.

But... I want to build these inside wine bottles, so I can't reach in and
apply a coating by hand.

I've thought about metallic paint - thinning it and swishing it around.
Something like this: http://www.lessemf.com/292.html . I've though
about electroplating, but that doesn't seem practical.

To prevent sparking, the coating needs to stop about 1/3 of the way from
the top of the jar.

Any suggestions for coating the inside of a container with a conductive
film, without actually reaching in? Oh, and this is being done on a
shoe-string budget, so expensive solutions are out....

TIA,

--Kamus

--
James P Crombie
Slemon Park, PEI
Canada
Machinist - 3D Cad Design - Amateur Astronomer

http://www.jamescrombie.com

In article ,
Kamus of Kadizhar wrote:

I've thought about metallic paint - thinning it and swishing it around.
Something like this: http://www.lessemf.com/292.html . I've though
about electroplating, but that doesn't seem practical.

Most conductive paints will not be at all cheap.

Given your desire for cheapness, I'd suggest that you just use foil and
"ship in a bottle" tooling (grab some coathangers and start bending).
Shove a slug of foil in, and then squish it out onto the walls with long
tools from the neck.

--
Cats, Coffee, Chocolate...vices to live by

Jeff Wisnia wrote:
You offered a reference which states that the classic Leyden jar used a
liquid inner "plate" with a connecting wire dangling into it.

Do you have a weight limit or some other requirement which makes you
need to use a conducting film rather than just filling the wine bottles
with water, and maybe some salt in the water for good measure?

But, if you really need to use a coating, then Google up "Aquadag". It's
a black conductive coating which can be painted on glass. IIRC the
outsides of some CRT envelopes used to be covered with the stuff. It
felt like it might of had a lot of carbon powder in it. You could
probably pour it in and out of your wine bottles to get what you want.

Interesting timing. Two nights ago I was reading
an old book on vacuum tube design. There was a
great description of how the aquadag coating was
applied. The CRT already had the phosphor applied
so it was held upright and the aquadag was syphoned
in and out so as not to contact to phosphor. There
was also hot air and suction applied so that the
water in the aquadag would not condense on the
phosphor.

They mentioned that the aquadag formula was graphite,
ball milled for 48 hours mixed 1:2 with water.

Kamus of Kadizhar wrote:

I'm trying to build some Leyden jars

(Snip)

Powdered toner from your laser printer mixed with glue to form your
own brand of conductive paste?

Here is a lifetime supply of conductive ink precursor for U$0.99

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...2928 459&rd=1

--Winston

Winston wrote:

Kamus of Kadizhar wrote:

I'm trying to build some Leyden jars


(Snip)

Powdered toner from your laser printer mixed with glue to form your
own brand of conductive paste?

Here is a lifetime supply of conductive ink precursor for U$0.99

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...2928 459&rd=1

Can you show me that toner is conductive?

Since the toner is applied electrostatically, I'd assume
that it's an insulator.

About six months ago I made a couple of Leyden jars using the latex based
conductive paint, Cupro-Cote from Less EMF. I picked it because I was
making the jars from acrylic tubing. Anyway, the paint worked perfectly.
It seems to me it would be easy to coat the inside of a wine bottle with
conductive paint by simply pouring in a sufficient amount and tilting the
bottle while rotating it to coat as needed. You could accelerate drying by
rigging up a low pressure(aquarium air pump) air supply through a small
plastic tube to establish a continuous supply of dry air to the bottle
interior. You can also coat the exterior of the bottles to make the other
plate: the paint I used is surprisingly tough.

Randy

"Kamus of Kadizhar" wrote in message
news
Maybe this isn't the right group, but I can't find the right one, so
appologies in advance if this is OT.

I'm trying to build some Leyden jars
http://chem.ch.huji.ac.il/~eugeniik/instruments/archaic/leyden_jars.htm
..

A Leyden Jar is basically an insulating container (glass, plastic) with a
thin coating of a metal conductor on the inside and the outside.

Normally, you apply a metal foil both inside and outside the container.

But... I want to build these inside wine bottles, so I can't reach in and
apply a coating by hand.

I've thought about metallic paint - thinning it and swishing it around.
Something like this: http://www.lessemf.com/292.html . I've though
about electroplating, but that doesn't seem practical.

To prevent sparking, the coating needs to stop about 1/3 of the way from
the top of the jar.

Any suggestions for coating the inside of a container with a conductive
film, without actually reaching in? Oh, and this is being done on a
shoe-string budget, so expensive solutions are out....

TIA,

--Kamus

On Fri, 28 May 2004 15:44:09 GMT, Ecnerwal
wrote:

In article ,
Kamus of Kadizhar wrote:

I've thought about metallic paint - thinning it and swishing it around.
Something like this: http://www.lessemf.com/292.html . I've though
about electroplating, but that doesn't seem practical.

Most conductive paints will not be at all cheap.

Given your desire for cheapness, I'd suggest that you just use foil and
"ship in a bottle" tooling (grab some coathangers and start bending).
Shove a slug of foil in, and then squish it out onto the walls with long
tools from the neck.



could you use a balloon inside the jar to tighten up the foil?

Put some gravel or scrap carbide tooling in a bottle and spin it in your
lathe for a
long while.

Mix up linseed oil and bronzing powder (aluminum powder) pour it in. Spin
in lathe for an even coat. Pour out excess. Cure some. Pour in bronzing
powder and coat more.

On the outside you could probably do the same or switch to the spray-on
zinc-epoxy mix (99% Pure Zinc, or so says the spray can) from Eastwood.

What about doing a copper plating with a strong copper sulfate solution?
How does that chemistry work?

Sees to me powdered nickel can be diffusion bonded into glass. You might
be able to rough up the glass, add nickel powder and put in a ceramic kiln
to get a nice bond.

What about spray transfer systems used for aluminizing steel? Fill up the
bottle with stainless swarf, heat it up, add a charge and blast it. Do it
on
a turntable for even coating.

"Kamus of Kadizhar" wrote in message
news
Maybe this isn't the right group, but I can't find the right one, so
appologies in advance if this is OT.

I'm trying to build some Leyden jars
http://chem.ch.huji.ac.il/~eugeniik/instruments/archaic/leyden_jars.htm
..

A Leyden Jar is basically an insulating container (glass, plastic) with a
thin coating of a metal conductor on the inside and the outside.

Normally, you apply a metal foil both inside and outside the container.

But... I want to build these inside wine bottles, so I can't reach in and
apply a coating by hand.

I've thought about metallic paint - thinning it and swishing it around.
Something like this: http://www.lessemf.com/292.html . I've though
about electroplating, but that doesn't seem practical.

To prevent sparking, the coating needs to stop about 1/3 of the way from
the top of the jar.

Any suggestions for coating the inside of a container with a conductive
film, without actually reaching in? Oh, and this is being done on a
shoe-string budget, so expensive solutions are out....

TIA,

--Kamus

Jim Stewart wrote:
Jeff Wisnia wrote:

You offered a reference which states that the classic Leyden jar used
a liquid inner "plate" with a connecting wire dangling into it.

Do you have a weight limit or some other requirement which makes you
need to use a conducting film rather than just filling the wine
bottles with water, and maybe some salt in the water for good measure?

But, if you really need to use a coating, then Google up "Aquadag".
It's a black conductive coating which can be painted on glass. IIRC
the outsides of some CRT envelopes used to be covered with the stuff.
It felt like it might of had a lot of carbon powder in it. You could
probably pour it in and out of your wine bottles to get what you want.


Interesting timing. Two nights ago I was reading
an old book on vacuum tube design. There was a
great description of how the aquadag coating was
applied. The CRT already had the phosphor applied
so it was held upright and the aquadag was syphoned
in and out so as not to contact to phosphor. There
was also hot air and suction applied so that the
water in the aquadag would not condense on the
phosphor.

They mentioned that the aquadag formula was graphite,
ball milled for 48 hours mixed 1:2 with water.



Yes, and after I finished posting I remembered that some CRTs are damn
good Leyden jars too!

I nearly lost my after school job as a TV repair guy in the 50s 'cause I
dropped a good sized B&W CRT which zapped me when I picked it up to take
it to the truck. (Glass all over the place....)

I'd forgotten to discharge it after I disconnected the anode lead before
taking it out of a customer's TV console cabinet. G

IIRC sometimes that charge in the CRTs would "come back" enough to bite
you even though you'd shorted it out once. (Dielectric absorption?)

Jeff

--
Jeff Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"My luck is so bad that if I bought a cemetery, people would stop dying."

In article ,
Ecnerwal wrote:
In article ,
Kamus of Kadizhar wrote:

I've thought about metallic paint - thinning it and swishing it around.
Something like this: http://www.lessemf.com/292.html . I've though
about electroplating, but that doesn't seem practical.

Most conductive paints will not be at all cheap.


Would cold galvanizing paint work? I assume that to impart the corrosion
inhibiting properties (actually more like a scrificial anode) it would need
to be conductive.

-- Joe

--
Joseph M. Krzeszewski Mechanical Engineering and stuff
Jack of All Trades, Master of None... Yet

"Jim Stewart" wrote: (clip) They mentioned that the aquadag formula was
graphite, ball milled for 48 hours mixed 1:2 with water.
^^^^^^^^^^^^
If that's all it is, you ought to be able to make your own using a rock
tumbler. But, my question is, how would you connect to it?

If the Aquadag is just a dried soot film, could you create the same thing by
poking around inside the wine bottle with a lighted taper (candle)?

In article ,
Jeff Wisnia wrote:


Yes, and after I finished posting I remembered that some CRTs are damn
good Leyden jars too!

I nearly lost my after school job as a TV repair guy in the 50s 'cause I
dropped a good sized B&W CRT which zapped me when I picked it up to take
it to the truck. (Glass all over the place....)

I'd forgotten to discharge it after I disconnected the anode lead before
taking it out of a customer's TV console cabinet. G

IIRC sometimes that charge in the CRTs would "come back" enough to bite
you even though you'd shorted it out once. (Dielectric absorption?)

Dunno about dielectric absorption - I'd put it down to "less than
complete discharge".

My pappy learned about how CRT's can sneak up on you - The hard way! He,
the electrically-illiterate member of the family, was ripping the guts
out of an early 1970's vintage 25 inch console TV so he could salvage
some of the rather pretty wood that made up the top and sides for a
project he was working on. This TV hadn't been plugged in, let alone
turned on (it didn't even have a power cord attached to it - that had
been gone for as long as the thing had been sitting in the garage) in at
least 5 years that we knew of for sure, and perhaps longer. When he
yanked the anode lead so he could pull the main chassis out of the box,
things got impressive, quick. Ever see a 6'2", 270+ pound man fly
without wings? I did... And he wasn't happy when he hit the wall and
sorta slid down it like something out of a Warner Brothers cartoon. The
"lightning bolt" that I saw jump from the anode connection on the tube
to his wrist looked like it was as thick as my thumb, and made a
"CRACK!" that could've easily been mistaken for a .22 rifle being fired.
He ended up with a small burn on his wrist where it had bit him, and one
helluva headache from smacking his gourd against the wall when he landed.

--
Don Bruder - - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004.
I respond to Email as quick as humanly possible. If you Email me and get no
response, see http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html Short
form: I'm trashing EVERYTHING that doesn't contain a password in the subject.

"Don Bruder" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Kamus of Kadizhar wrote:

Maybe this isn't the right group, but I can't find the right one, so
appologies in advance if this is OT.

I'm trying to build some Leyden jars
http://chem.ch.huji.ac.il/~eugeniik/instruments/archaic/leyden_jars.htm .

A Leyden Jar is basically an insulating container (glass, plastic) with a
thin coating of a metal conductor on the inside and the outside.

When you get right down to where the rubber meets the road, a Leyden Jar
is a primitive, but quite effective, medium-high value capacitor.

Any suggestions for coating the inside of a container with a conductive
film, without actually reaching in? Oh, and this is being done on a
shoe-string budget, so expensive solutions are out....

Too easy:
Make yourself a saturated salt solution (Water, plus as much plain old
table salt as can be disolved in it) and fill the bottle to the desired
level. Sal****er is a good conductor - at least as good as, sometimes
better than, any foil you might apply.

Could you fill the bottle with brass wool, swarf, or some other low density
metal and get pretty much the same effect as if it were full of a conductive
liquid but with less weight, no spilling and no evaporation?

The guy who suggested foil and a balloon...amazing! Wait...are those
Mylar balloons conductive?

Vaughn

Hey Kamus,

Try using just plain old aluminum foil. Do a strip on the outside
first. Then insert the largest strip you can feed into the neck, with
a braided copper wire glued/fastened/soldered on it and then "power
up". Each time you do, the piece inside will PLASTER itself in place.
WHAM!! Just keep adding strips outside and in until you've covered
the whole thing, then apply some sort of sticky to keep it in place.
A "plain" condom or a kids toy balloon that is long and skinny can be
inserted and then blown up and sealed off to hold the pieces in place,
but I doubt you will need it. Or fill it with melted wax. Just
seeing it happen is a good "Wow!!" for students. I've done it with
50KV neon sign transformers, and had no "arc-over", but be careful!!

Take care.

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.

ps...On mine, the 50KV was the PRIMARY of a BIG Tesla coil. 1000 turn
primary and 5000 turn secondary. Now THAT makes a Jacobs Ladder
really work!! Shades of Frankensteins birth.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
On Fri, 28 May 2004 08:55:44 -0400, Kamus of Kadizhar
wrote:

Maybe this isn't the right group, but I can't find the right one, so
appologies in advance if this is OT.

I'm trying to build some Leyden jars
http://chem.ch.huji.ac.il/~eugeniik/instruments/archaic/leyden_jars.htm .

A Leyden Jar is basically an insulating container (glass, plastic) with a
thin coating of a metal conductor on the inside and the outside.

Normally, you apply a metal foil both inside and outside the container.

But... I want to build these inside wine bottles, so I can't reach in and
apply a coating by hand.

I've thought about metallic paint - thinning it and swishing it around.
Something like this: http://www.lessemf.com/292.html . I've though
about electroplating, but that doesn't seem practical.

To prevent sparking, the coating needs to stop about 1/3 of the way from
the top of the jar.

Any suggestions for coating the inside of a container with a conductive
film, without actually reaching in? Oh, and this is being done on a
shoe-string budget, so expensive solutions are out....

TIA,

--Kamus

Jim Stewart wrote:
Winston wrote:

Kamus of Kadizhar wrote:

(Snip)
Can you show me that toner is conductive?

Since the toner is applied electrostatically, I'd assume
that it's an insulator.

Good point, Jim.
I assumed that after application and fusing, the carbon particles
would come into contact and form a conductive coating.

Just now I probed an inkjet-printed black line on dry paper with my
ohmmeter. It showed about 3 Mohms/cm. I also probed a similar
line printed by a LaserJet 6MP. It reads about the same.

*Now* I assume that one could achieve a lower coating resistance
by increasing the coating thickness in all three dimensions.

It's a possibility anyway.

--Winston

Which reminds me..I scored some 4 or 5 small bottles of Colloidial
Graphite last week. They were packed in vermiculite then inside
plastic bags.

Whats this stuff used for and why the vermiculite?

Gunner

That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's
cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays
there.
- George Orwell

Winston wrote:

Kamus of Kadizhar wrote:

I'm trying to build some Leyden jars

(Snip)

Powdered toner from your laser printer mixed with glue to form your
own brand of conductive paste?

Here is a lifetime supply of conductive ink precursor for U$0.99

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...2928 459&rd=1

--Winston

DIDJA NOTICE THE $16.00 "shipping charge" !!!!--SNEAKY-for first time bidders

Gunner wrote:

Which reminds me..I scored some 4 or 5 small bottles of Colloidial
Graphite last week. They were packed in vermiculite then inside
plastic bags.

Whats this stuff used for and why the vermiculite?

Can you imagine the mess if it breaks open
in shipping? I guess the packaging can
absorb some of it.

Gunner

That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's
cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays
there.
- George Orwell

yuck wrote:

Think I might buzz down to the wood finishing shop & pickup some
powdered Al & Cu & try to make my own conductive paint.

Forget about Al. The oxide coating will defeat your purpose.
Conductive paint can be made with powdered Cu or Ag and graphite in a
suitable carrier.

Ted

Colloidial Graphite in Isapropanol (SP?) is about the only US Navy approved
thread lubricant in use today. Just don't get it on your fingers, it is
VERY difficult to wash off.

Shawn

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
Which reminds me..I scored some 4 or 5 small bottles of Colloidial
Graphite last week. They were packed in vermiculite then inside
plastic bags.

Whats this stuff used for and why the vermiculite?

Gunner

That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's
cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays
there.
- George Orwell

On Sat, 29 May 2004 13:22:35 -0400, "Shawn" shawn_75ATcomcastDOTnet
wrote:

Colloidial Graphite in Isapropanol (SP?) is about the only US Navy approved
thread lubricant in use today. Just don't get it on your fingers, it is
VERY difficult to wash off.

Shawn

Yup thats the stuff. This came from that motherboard manufactureing
plant that Im helping to clear out.

So, if I used a swab and put a lil bit behind a car door handle..it
would be hard for the operator to remove it from their fingers?

rusty mental gears creakinly turning)

Thanks!

Gunner


"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
Which reminds me..I scored some 4 or 5 small bottles of Colloidial
Graphite last week. They were packed in vermiculite then inside
plastic bags.

Whats this stuff used for and why the vermiculite?

Gunner

That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's
cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays
there.
- George Orwell


That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's
cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays
there.
- George Orwell

On Sat, 29 May 2004 18:27:11 GMT, Gunner wrote

So, if I used a swab and put a lil bit behind a car door handle..it
would be hard for the operator to remove it from their fingers?

Same as powdered pencil lead. Mix it with a dab of white heat sink
grease (as found at radio shack in little tubes). That stuff is
incredibly tenacious and resistant to both solvents and detergents.

jerry Wass wrote:


Winston wrote:

Kamus of Kadizhar wrote:

I'm trying to build some Leyden jars

(Snip)

Powdered toner from your laser printer mixed with glue to form your
own brand of conductive paste?

Here is a lifetime supply of conductive ink precursor for U$0.99

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...2928 459&rd=1
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=32803&item=3482928 459&rd=1


--Winston

DIDJA NOTICE THE $16.00 "shipping charge" !!!!--SNEAKY-for first time
bidders

Ooof! No, I didn't.

--Winston

After the alcohol has evaporated it's not as tenacious, but still a pain in
the but. Perhaps a cotton ball soaked in the stuff would give you enough
getaway time.

BTW this is some good quality stuff when used as a novelty ......or a thread
lubricant.

Shawn

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
So, if I used a swab and put a lil bit behind a car door handle..it
would be hard for the operator to remove it from their fingers?

rusty mental gears creakinly turning)

Thanks!

Gunner

you could always do it a different way.... fill the bottle with a conductive
media... lead shot springs to mind since that is how I first saw leyden jars
being made.
Given your need for the wine bottles, and the bnudget, you can probably
think of a conductive media which you can fill the bottles with

Des
"Kamus of Kadizhar" wrote in message
news
Maybe this isn't the right group, but I can't find the right one, so
appologies in advance if this is OT.

I'm trying to build some Leyden jars
http://chem.ch.huji.ac.il/~eugeniik/instruments/archaic/leyden_jars.htm
..

A Leyden Jar is basically an insulating container (glass, plastic) with a
thin coating of a metal conductor on the inside and the outside.

Normally, you apply a metal foil both inside and outside the container.

But... I want to build these inside wine bottles, so I can't reach in and
apply a coating by hand.

I've thought about metallic paint - thinning it and swishing it around.
Something like this: http://www.lessemf.com/292.html . I've though
about electroplating, but that doesn't seem practical.

To prevent sparking, the coating needs to stop about 1/3 of the way from
the top of the jar.

Any suggestions for coating the inside of a container with a conductive
film, without actually reaching in? Oh, and this is being done on a
shoe-string budget, so expensive solutions are out....

TIA,

--Kamus

Skip the jar completely. Get yourself some old glass windows, which people
are always throwing in the garbage. Clean the glass completely, and stack it
with aluminum foil. Will have ALOT more capacitance than a jar of the same
relative size.

You could have a very huge capacitor for the cost of 1 roll of aluminum foil
and 1 bottle of windex.

"Marvin" wrote in message news:qXJuc.21856$pt3.2362@attbi_s03...
You could have a very huge capacitor for the cost of 1 roll of
aluminum foil and 1 bottle of windex.

I've seen a webpage where someone did this, except with printing plates. He
got the plates a bit too close to the glass edge and it tended to arc over,
so watch out for that catch...

Tim

--
"I have misplaced my pants." - Homer Simpson | Electronics,
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --+ Metalcasting
and Games: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

In article ,
Jim Stewart wrote:
:Winston wrote:
:
: Kamus of Kadizhar wrote:
:
: I'm trying to build some Leyden jars
:
:
: (Snip)
:
: Powdered toner from your laser printer mixed with glue to form your
: own brand of conductive paste?
:
: Here is a lifetime supply of conductive ink precursor for U$0.99
:
: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...2928 459&rd=1
:
:Can you show me that toner is conductive?
:
:Since the toner is applied electrostatically, I'd assume
:that it's an insulator.

The individual toner particles have an insulating coating. Caswell
Plating (http://www.caswellplating.com) sells a "conductive powder" to
be used as surface preparation for electroplating non-conductive
plastic. I _suspect_ that this powder is nothing more than copier
toner. Their instructions tell you to wash off the protective coating
with acetone before applying. That coating is designed to melt in the
fuser section of the printer/copier, so you might be able to achieve a
satisfactory result just by heating the bottles after coating them. You
would need to coat the inside of the bottle with a thin layer of glue,
paint, or perhaps shellac or varnish so that enough powder would adhere
to the surface. Caswell recommends plumber's PVC pipe cement thinned
with acetone.

CAVEAT: I've never bought any of this powder from Caswell or actually
tried any of the above process, so this is all supposition on
my part.

--
Bob Nichols AT interaccess.com I am "rnichols"

wrap jars with foil, fill with water, add a little salt.

don't use window glass if you are making a tesla coil - it won't hold up
very well and it's lossy.

"Robert Nichols" wrote in
message ...
In article ,
Jim Stewart wrote:
:Winston wrote:
:
: Kamus of Kadizhar wrote:
:
: I'm trying to build some Leyden jars
:
:
: (Snip)
:
: Powdered toner from your laser printer mixed with glue to form your
: own brand of conductive paste?