On Thu, 20 May 2004 19:49:55 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

I don't want to live in a community full of incompetent
self-protectors.

Anyone who purchases a weapon and doesn't get trained on it is
a fool. But he's an armed fool and he just may save your butt
some day. Y'know, when (not if) anarchy strikes your area.

You're paranoid.

I would rather live in a community where even the
cops don't need guns.

All of us would, but that very probably isn't going to happen
for any of us on this globe in this lifetime. C'est la vie.
(C'est la guerre?)

It has been that way in England for decades.

I do not consider myself
competent to handle a handgun in a face-to-face shoot out. That's
police work, and a good number of cops aren't all that skilled at it
either.

You would rather die than defend yourself in that situation?

I would rather not be in that situation.

None of us would, and that's a fact. But given the choice, wouldn't
you -want- a choice?

What advice do cops give bank clerks and convenience store owners?
Do they advise starting a shootout or just handing over the money?

Remember what the situation
is... the US is country where there are all kinds of handguns already
in the posession of people who damn well shouldn't have them.

Ditto for the UK.

No. It has only been lately that ANY UK cops have had to carry guns,
and most still don't.

The criminals in all countries shouldn't have
weapons of any sort, but they all do.

No they ALL don't.

I don't want to see my county become that way, Most times when i read
in the local papers of an armed robbery, the criminal was armed with a
sporting rifle. You want him to have a nice concealable handgun
instead?

You really should read more facts about guns, John. Your country
already outranks the US in % of victims.

According to NRA statistics?

To me the idea that every individual can be his own armed guard is
scary. People can become homicidally violent for all sorts of reasons,
and reach for the nearest weapon-- a knife, a baseball bat, a broken
bottle. That's bad enough.

Criminals will do what criminals do and will use whatever means
to accomplish it. They'll have illegal guns/knives/weapons no matter
what,

So why facilitate their violence?

Oy vay! Criminals will find sticks/bars/rocks on the ground
when they want to be violent. Are you going to outlaw them, too?

Escalation of the hardware is better?

so why remove everyone else's chance to defend themselves in
their own homes?

Because their defence is incompetent and dangerous, and their
defensive weapon loot to arm the criminal.

Please, oh please, tell me how many weapons criminals took out
of defenders' hands in the past decade. (According to Kleck's
"Armed: New Perspectives on Gun Control",

Which may or may not be fiction. I'm all too aware that both sides in
this issue have plenty of motivation to lie.

Who are YOU to say that I shouldn't be able to?

When your bullets fired in self defence start coming through my walls.

Um, how many holes are there now?

My neighbors don't have guns.

Homicidally bent people will get guns whether or not they're legal.

Not on the spur of the moment they won't.

Homicidally bent people (your term) will find other ways to
do their damage.

Less efficient ways.

Look at the stats.

No. That's why, as I told Gunner, I'm giving up this debate. Both
sides of the issue are calling the other's stats bogus. Probably
they're both right. I have neither the time nor the inclination to
find out which. All I know is that it's safer where I am than it is
ten miles south of here.

I owed it to myself to find out the truth. If you don't want
to know it, so be it.

You know a source of the truth? An UNBIASED source?

But in case you do, read a variety of
books and sources. Talk to the local police,

They'll recommend that I shoot it out with any armed robbers
I encounter?

Becuse there are too many men with guns! Every defensive gun you add
is potentialy a criminal's gun, from misuse, theft or incompetent
defence.

So let's put the -criminals- out of action, not defensive weapons.

Not possible. Especially as long as drugs remain illegal.

The reason I dare you to actually read the stats is that the truth
will knock you off that gun control pedestal you're on.

Whose "truth"? Do you know of any sources of UNBIASED truth?

Read a few and make your choice from their presentations and
reviews of their books by other sources (confirmations.)

From what I see posted in here, that hasn't resolved the issue.

If you don't
like those, go find more sources and confirm them with others. But
try to keep an open mind. I did and was shocked to find out that
nearly everything I knew about guns/crime was misled.

That statement sounds curiously like similar ones I've heard from
Creationists.

I promise that I'm absolutely NOT born-again and I'll avoid religious
discussion here on the metal group. But religious folks aren't
open-minded or even slightly confirmable, are they? Wouldn't you
feel better knowing the answer to your questions?

OK. Name me a police agency that advocates self-defence with a handgun
against armed robbery. That advises convenience store owners to shoot
it out for instance.