I broke the last one my father made, and he died four years ago. I
never watched him do this, so I'm clueless. I've got most of his tools
but really miss his 40+ years of experience.

What are the methods/tools/procedures needed to make a piloted
counterbore out of a standard HSS twist drill?

The pilot will be for a 4-40 clearance hole (.106") and the counterbore
for a 4-40 buttonhead torx screw (approx .210" or 7/32").

Google was no help, or I didn't use the right key words.

--
Here's some of my work:
http://www.franksknives.com

Frank J Warner wrote:
I broke the last one my father made, and he died four years ago. I
never watched him do this, so I'm clueless. I've got most of his tools
but really miss his 40+ years of experience.

What are the methods/tools/procedures needed to make a piloted
counterbore out of a standard HSS twist drill?

The pilot will be for a 4-40 clearance hole (.106") and the counterbore
for a 4-40 buttonhead torx screw (approx .210" or 7/32").

Google was no help, or I didn't use the right key words.


They can be bought. Or, do you really want to make it yourself?
Randy

"Frank J Warner" wrote in message
news:210520060941588936%warnerf@veriSPAMMERSDIEzon .net...
I broke the last one my father made, and he died four years ago. I
never watched him do this, so I'm clueless. I've got most of his tools
but really miss his 40+ years of experience.

What are the methods/tools/procedures needed to make a piloted
counterbore out of a standard HSS twist drill?

The pilot will be for a 4-40 clearance hole (.106") and the counterbore
for a 4-40 buttonhead torx screw (approx .210" or 7/32").

Google was no help, or I didn't use the right key words.

The way I make them if I don't have the size I need is to chuck the
appropriate drill in the lathe and grind the pilot to size with the tool
post grinder. Then I take it out and hand grind the flutes to sharpen it.

Glenn

In article , Glenn wrote:

"Frank J Warner" wrote in message
news:210520060941588936%warnerf@veriSPAMMERSDIEzon .net...
I broke the last one my father made, and he died four years ago. I
never watched him do this, so I'm clueless. I've got most of his tools
but really miss his 40+ years of experience.

What are the methods/tools/procedures needed to make a piloted
counterbore out of a standard HSS twist drill?

The pilot will be for a 4-40 clearance hole (.106") and the counterbore
for a 4-40 buttonhead torx screw (approx .210" or 7/32").

Google was no help, or I didn't use the right key words.

The way I make them if I don't have the size I need is to chuck the
appropriate drill in the lathe and grind the pilot to size with the tool
post grinder. Then I take it out and hand grind the flutes to sharpen it.

Glenn

I knew it involved the tool post grinder, my least favorite tool. Oh
well, I guess i'll mount it up and see what happens.

-Frank

--
Here's some of my work:
http://www.franksknives.com

Frank J Warner wrote:

I knew it involved the tool post grinder, my least favorite tool. Oh
well, I guess i'll mount it up and see what happens.

-Frank

--
Here's some of my work:
http://www.franksknives.com

Doesn't have to. Got dril rod? turn the profile and sizes you need,
file the teeth to shape and harden. A touchup with a stone or a diamond
file and you are in business.

Cheers
Trevor Jones

Frank,
Yes, you can mount a tool post grinder and make one, but it is a waste of
valuable time. Purchase a set of counterbores with changable pilots. They
are available on ebay and should be in everyones toolbox just for occasions
like this.
Steve

"Frank J Warner" wrote in message
news:210520060941588936%warnerf@veriSPAMMERSDIEzon .net...
I broke the last one my father made, and he died four years ago. I
never watched him do this, so I'm clueless. I've got most of his tools
but really miss his 40+ years of experience.

What are the methods/tools/procedures needed to make a piloted
counterbore out of a standard HSS twist drill?

The pilot will be for a 4-40 clearance hole (.106") and the counterbore
for a 4-40 buttonhead torx screw (approx .210" or 7/32").

Google was no help, or I didn't use the right key words.

--
Here's some of my work:
http://www.franksknives.com

"Frank J Warner" wrote in message
news:210520060941588936%warnerf@veriSPAMMERSDIEzon .net...
snnip-

What are the methods/tools/procedures needed to make a piloted
counterbore out of a standard HSS twist drill?


Piloted counterbores are a huge PITA because of chips getting caught between
the pilot and hole. It's a problem even with the replaceable pilot types,
which break even easier than they one piece types you spoke of.

Unless you're involved in some serious (high volume) production, you don't
need the pilot. Working as a tool maker for years, I *never* used
counterbores with pilots. If you'll start with the typical drill size that
you desire, you can start your counterbore with a twist drill, drilling deep
enough for the full diameter to pilot a flat bottom drill, which you use to
take the counterbore to depth. It requires a change of tool for each hole,
but the benefit is that you never break tools because they handle chips far
better, cut faster, and in general do a better job. Not good for spot
facing, but otherwise superior to counterbores.

You can hand grind flat bottom drills easily--using nothing more than a
small square and a well dressed wheel on a pedestal (or bench) grinder.
Setting up a tool post grinder for such a job is a waste of time.

Harold

On Sun, 21 May 2006 12:05:50 -0700, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"Frank J Warner" wrote in message
news:210520060941588936%warnerf@veriSPAMMERSDIEzo n.net...
snnip-

What are the methods/tools/procedures needed to make a piloted
counterbore out of a standard HSS twist drill?


Piloted counterbores are a huge PITA because of chips getting caught between
the pilot and hole. It's a problem even with the replaceable pilot types,
which break even easier than they one piece types you spoke of.

Unless you're involved in some serious (high volume) production, you don't
need the pilot. Working as a tool maker for years, I *never* used
counterbores with pilots. If you'll start with the typical drill size that
you desire, you can start your counterbore with a twist drill, drilling deep
enough for the full diameter to pilot a flat bottom drill, which you use to
take the counterbore to depth. It requires a change of tool for each hole,
but the benefit is that you never break tools because they handle chips far
better, cut faster, and in general do a better job. Not good for spot
facing, but otherwise superior to counterbores.

You can hand grind flat bottom drills easily--using nothing more than a
small square and a well dressed wheel on a pedestal (or bench) grinder.
Setting up a tool post grinder for such a job is a waste of time.

Harold

If the pilot doesn't cut, the chips shouldn't be a problem. As a
toolmaker, you probably didn't use an ordinary drill press like a lot
of us do. I think pilots can help in that circumstance.

Pete Keillro

On Sun, 21 May 2006 10:16:25 -0700, Frank J Warner
wrote:

In article , Glenn wrote:

"Frank J Warner" wrote in message
news:210520060941588936%warnerf@veriSPAMMERSDIEzon .net...
I broke the last one my father made, and he died four years ago. I
never watched him do this, so I'm clueless. I've got most of his tools
but really miss his 40+ years of experience.

What are the methods/tools/procedures needed to make a piloted
counterbore out of a standard HSS twist drill?

The pilot will be for a 4-40 clearance hole (.106") and the counterbore
for a 4-40 buttonhead torx screw (approx .210" or 7/32").

Google was no help, or I didn't use the right key words.

The way I make them if I don't have the size I need is to chuck the
appropriate drill in the lathe and grind the pilot to size with the tool
post grinder. Then I take it out and hand grind the flutes to sharpen it.

Glenn

I knew it involved the tool post grinder, my least favorite tool. Oh
well, I guess i'll mount it up and see what happens.

-Frank

Or you can do like I do..and put it in the OD grinder, fire up that
14" wheel and grind it to the diameter you want

G

Gunner, getting a Cincy Cutter and Tool Grinder in a week or two.
Swapped for it.


"If thy pride is sorely vexed when others disparage your offering, be
as lamb's wool is to cold rain and the Gore-tex of Odin's raiment
is to gull**** in the gale, for thy angst shall vex them not at
all. Yea, they shall scorn thee all the more. Rejoice in
sharing what you have to share without expectation of adoration,
knowing that sharing your treasure does not diminish your treasure
but enriches it."

- Onni 1:33

"Pete Keillor" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 21 May 2006 12:05:50 -0700, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"Frank J Warner" wrote in message
news:210520060941588936%warnerf@veriSPAMMERSDIEzo n.net...
snnip-

What are the methods/tools/procedures needed to make a piloted
counterbore out of a standard HSS twist drill?


Piloted counterbores are a huge PITA because of chips getting caught
between
the pilot and hole. It's a problem even with the replaceable pilot
types,
which break even easier than they one piece types you spoke of.

Unless you're involved in some serious (high volume) production, you
don't
need the pilot. Working as a tool maker for years, I *never* used
counterbores with pilots. If you'll start with the typical drill size
that
you desire, you can start your counterbore with a twist drill, drilling
deep
enough for the full diameter to pilot a flat bottom drill, which you use
to
take the counterbore to depth. It requires a change of tool for each
hole,
but the benefit is that you never break tools because they handle chips
far
better, cut faster, and in general do a better job. Not good for spot
facing, but otherwise superior to counterbores.

You can hand grind flat bottom drills easily--using nothing more than a
small square and a well dressed wheel on a pedestal (or bench) grinder.
Setting up a tool post grinder for such a job is a waste of time.

Harold

If the pilot doesn't cut, the chips shouldn't be a problem. As a
toolmaker, you probably didn't use an ordinary drill press like a lot
of us do. I think pilots can help in that circumstance.

Pete Keillro

Hi Pete,

It has nothing to do with the pilot cutting. What happens is when you lift
the counterbore to clear the chips (an ongoing problem with counterbores bec
ause they have poor chip clearing capabilities), often times a small chip
partially enters the hole, is then picked up by the pilot as it returns to
the hole, resulting in seizing and twisting off of the pilot. I spent
considerable time using these things early on in my learning years, when I
was assigned to running drill presses. We used them for spot facing as well
as counterboring in a production environment. I don't like them and avoid
them like the plague. The home shop type can benefit greatly by not using
them, both in better success, and not investing in tools that have limited
use.

The method I proposed should have included the idea that you should clamp
your work piece. While it will work freehand, it's much better when the
part isn't free to move about.

Harold

On Sun, 21 May 2006 17:07:40 -0700, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"Pete Keillor" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 21 May 2006 12:05:50 -0700, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote:
snip
Hi Pete,

It has nothing to do with the pilot cutting. What happens is when you lift
the counterbore to clear the chips (an ongoing problem with counterbores bec
ause they have poor chip clearing capabilities), often times a small chip
partially enters the hole, is then picked up by the pilot as it returns to
the hole, resulting in seizing and twisting off of the pilot. I spent
considerable time using these things early on in my learning years, when I
was assigned to running drill presses. We used them for spot facing as well
as counterboring in a production environment. I don't like them and avoid
them like the plague. The home shop type can benefit greatly by not using
them, both in better success, and not investing in tools that have limited
use.

The method I proposed should have included the idea that you should clamp
your work piece. While it will work freehand, it's much better when the
part isn't free to move about.

Harold

Harold, I'll give it a try. Thanks.

Pete

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...


Unless you're involved in some serious (high volume) production, you don't
need the pilot. Working as a tool maker for years, I *never* used
counterbores with pilots.

Harold,

It's interesting that you mention this problem with chips and counterbores.
We make hundreds of counterbored holes on a set of dies so we always use
piloted counterbores.

I think the ideal technique is to make long stringy chips which ensure that
nothing gets caught under the lips of the counterbore or between the pilot
and the work. It's certainly one of those issues that puts the "skilled" in
"skilled trades."

The problem is particularly accented when c-boring deep holes. Because we
have to use one length of screw for all similar components in a die, it is
sometimes necessary to counterbore 300mm+ deep for an M16 screw. In this
case, using a standard and then flat-bottom drill is virtually a
requirement. Indeed the square edges of a counterbore make the tool
particularly badly suited to deep drilling as they fail reasonably quickly
compared to a 118º drill point, and they are difficult to resharpen. Once
those edges fail, the counterbore must be resharpened or discarded.

Regards,

Robin

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
snip-----

Gunner, getting a Cincy Cutter and Tool Grinder in a week or two.
Swapped for it.

With or without accessories? If it's without, you'll quickly come to
understand that you'll have nothing more than a heavy pedestal grinder that
eats floor space.

If it's with, and it turns up missing, I'll have a perfect alibi. . :-)

Harold

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

"Frank J Warner" wrote in message
news:210520060941588936%warnerf@veriSPAMMERSDIEzon .net...
snnip-

What are the methods/tools/procedures needed to make a piloted
counterbore out of a standard HSS twist drill?


Piloted counterbores are a huge PITA because of chips getting caught
between
the pilot and hole. It's a problem even with the replaceable pilot
types,
which break even easier than they one piece types you spoke of.

Unless you're involved in some serious (high volume) production, you don't
need the pilot. Working as a tool maker for years, I *never* used
counterbores with pilots. If you'll start with the typical drill size
that
you desire, you can start your counterbore with a twist drill, drilling
deep
enough for the full diameter to pilot a flat bottom drill, which you use
to
take the counterbore to depth. It requires a change of tool for each
hole,
but the benefit is that you never break tools because they handle chips
far
better, cut faster, and in general do a better job. Not good for spot
facing, but otherwise superior to counterbores.

You can hand grind flat bottom drills easily--using nothing more than a
small square and a well dressed wheel on a pedestal (or bench) grinder.
Setting up a tool post grinder for such a job is a waste of time.

Harold

LOL He didn't ask if it was practical though A pilot hole of the correct
size followed by an end mill works well too. I have a pretty fair stock of
counterbores with pilots I picked up at Boeing Surplus. I frequently use
them without the pilot.
If I had to make a twist drill into a piloted counter bore that is how I
would do it (and have done it).

Glenn
Who obviously screwed up and addresed the question instead of the problem

"Glenn" wrote in message
...
snnip------

If I had to make a twist drill into a piloted counter bore that is how I
would do it (and have done it).

Don't get me wrong. I've done it that way, too. Are there options? You
have a cutter grinder, a cylindrical grinder, or you use a tool post
grinder. Problem isn't in how the tool is generated, it's the tool. There
are better ways to deal with the issue-----which was my point. If one is
truly counterboring, not spot facing, the pilot is trouble. Always has
been, and likely to be in the future.

Counterbores tend to have short flutes that are restrictive in the way of
disposing of chips. They work fairly well for a spot face, or a shallow
counterbore, but when you start pecking, the fun begins. Think of drilling
with a 4 flute end mill and you come pretty close to how a counterbore
behaves, only you have to toss in the pilot/bore problems.

Robin suggested that as long as long stringy chips are developed, you have
reasonable success. True, but when you interrupt the cut and pull out,
seems there's always that little chip that wants to find its way to the bore
and hang over the edge, assuring it gets bound up with the pilot. When
you're lucky, and maybe use an air hose between cuts, you can eliminate most
of the trouble, but it's faster to change drills and use a tool that
evacuates chips well and cuts faster instead. I'll stick to my hand
ground flat bottomed drills, thanks.

Harold

Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:
"Glenn" wrote in message
...
snnip------

If I had to make a twist drill into a piloted counter bore that is
how I would do it (and have done it).

Don't get me wrong. I've done it that way, too. Are there options?
You have a cutter grinder, a cylindrical grinder, or you use a tool
post grinder. Problem isn't in how the tool is generated, it's the
tool. There are better ways to deal with the issue-----which was my
point. If one is truly counterboring, not spot facing, the pilot is
trouble. Always has been, and likely to be in the future.

Counterbores tend to have short flutes that are restrictive in the
way of disposing of chips. They work fairly well for a spot face,
or a shallow counterbore, but when you start pecking, the fun begins.
Think of drilling with a 4 flute end mill and you come pretty close
to how a counterbore behaves, only you have to toss in the pilot/bore
problems.

Robin suggested that as long as long stringy chips are developed, you
have reasonable success. True, but when you interrupt the cut and
pull out, seems there's always that little chip that wants to find
its way to the bore and hang over the edge, assuring it gets bound up
with the pilot. When you're lucky, and maybe use an air hose
between cuts, you can eliminate most of the trouble, but it's faster
to change drills and use a tool that evacuates chips well and cuts
faster instead. I'll stick to my hand ground flat bottomed drills,
thanks.

Harold

T have never tried this (I will in the near future) but how about grinding a
flat (slightly less than the dfiameter - sort of like a 'D' bit) on the
pilot?
This should eliminate the 'chip' problem.

Ken.

--
Volunteer your idle computer time for cancer research
http//www.grid.org/download/gold/download.htm
Return address courtesy of Spammotel http://www.spammotel.com/

On Sun, 21 May 2006 21:27:40 -0700, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
snip-----

Gunner, getting a Cincy Cutter and Tool Grinder in a week or two.
Swapped for it.

With or without accessories? If it's without, you'll quickly come to
understand that you'll have nothing more than a heavy pedestal grinder that
eats floor space.

If it's with, and it turns up missing, I'll have a perfect alibi. . :-)

Harold

Supposedly with.. G

Im trading a Logan 14" missing the compound thats been sitting outside
all winter for it. But Ill have to see it first.

Gunner

"If thy pride is sorely vexed when others disparage your offering, be
as lamb's wool is to cold rain and the Gore-tex of Odin's raiment
is to gull**** in the gale, for thy angst shall vex them not at
all. Yea, they shall scorn thee all the more. Rejoice in
sharing what you have to share without expectation of adoration,
knowing that sharing your treasure does not diminish your treasure
but enriches it."

- Onni 1:33

"Ken Davey" wrote in message
...
snip---
T have never tried this (I will in the near future) but how about grinding
a
flat (slightly less than the dfiameter - sort of like a 'D' bit) on the
pilot?
This should eliminate the 'chip' problem.

Ken.

You'd think so, but all it will do is encourage wedging. There's no way in
hell a chip will enjoy the ride without welding to the hole. Pilots are
trouble-although workable. The best scenario, if you're forced to use
anything with a pilot, is to keep things clean and lubricated. A blast of
air between pecks works pretty well, assuming you don't get a long string
type chip in the hole. Otherwise, working without a pilot with a rigid
setup is the way to go. It can be troublesome working like that when you
can't position your work precisely under the spindle. Counterbores with
pilots were made so work can be performed without that ability, relying on
the hole to locate the cutter. Same principle as tapping with a tapping
head.

Harold

Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:
"Ken Davey" wrote in message
...
snip---
T have never tried this (I will in the near future) but how about
grinding a flat (slightly less than the dfiameter - sort of like a
'D' bit) on the pilot?
This should eliminate the 'chip' problem.

Ken.

You'd think so, but all it will do is encourage wedging. There's no
way in hell a chip will enjoy the ride without welding to the hole.
Pilots are trouble-although workable. The best scenario, if you're
forced to use anything with a pilot, is to keep things clean and
lubricated. A blast of air between pecks works pretty well, assuming
you don't get a long string type chip in the hole. Otherwise,
working without a pilot with a rigid setup is the way to go. It can
be troublesome working like that when you can't position your work
precisely under the spindle. Counterbores with pilots were made so
work can be performed without that ability, relying on the hole to
locate the cutter. Same principle as tapping with a tapping head.

Harold

I have never seen a chip take a ride with a 'D' bit. The D shaped pilot
should sweep the hole of any debris.

Ken.
--
Volunteer your idle computer time for cancer research
http//www.grid.org/download/gold/download.htm
Return address courtesy of Spammotel http://www.spammotel.com/

On Mon, 22 May 2006 01:14:15 -0700, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"Glenn" wrote in message
...
snnip------

If I had to make a twist drill into a piloted counter bore that is how I
would do it (and have done it).

Don't get me wrong. I've done it that way, too. Are there options? You
have a cutter grinder, a cylindrical grinder, or you use a tool post
grinder. Problem isn't in how the tool is generated, it's the tool. There
are better ways to deal with the issue-----which was my point. If one is
truly counterboring, not spot facing, the pilot is trouble. Always has
been, and likely to be in the future.

Counterbores tend to have short flutes that are restrictive in the way of
disposing of chips. They work fairly well for a spot face, or a shallow
counterbore, but when you start pecking, the fun begins. Think of drilling
with a 4 flute end mill and you come pretty close to how a counterbore
behaves, only you have to toss in the pilot/bore problems.

Robin suggested that as long as long stringy chips are developed, you have
reasonable success. True, but when you interrupt the cut and pull out,
seems there's always that little chip that wants to find its way to the bore
and hang over the edge, assuring it gets bound up with the pilot. When
you're lucky, and maybe use an air hose between cuts, you can eliminate most
of the trouble, but it's faster to change drills and use a tool that
evacuates chips well and cuts faster instead. I'll stick to my hand
ground flat bottomed drills, thanks.

Harold



A piloted counterbore ground from a twist drill will have flutes that are as
good (or bad) at the original twist drill's were at disposing of chips. They
should normally be better since the chips will be smaller than those produced
in drilling.

If turning a twist drill into a flat bottomed drill it is worth while throwing
away most of the length to make the result stiffer and less prone to chatter.


Mark Rand
RTFM


Mark Rand
RTFM

"Mark Rand" wrote in message
...
snip-

A piloted counterbore ground from a twist drill will have flutes that are
as
good (or bad) at the original twist drill's were at disposing of chips.
They
should normally be better since the chips will be smaller than those
produced
in drilling.

The issue of chip control, or handling, is more or less a non-issue with
counterbores made from drills. Only if they were short, such that the
flute length was shorter than the desired depth, would it be troublesome.
That's very unlike the typical counterbore.

If turning a twist drill into a flat bottomed drill it is worth while
throwing
away most of the length to make the result stiffer and less prone to
chatter.

I have them in all lengths--often full length. Chatter isn't much of a
problem, although the short ones are quiet in operation, not always the case
with the long ones.

Keep in mind the fact that drills are tapered, so as you shorten the drill,
you also give up diameter. If you're working to a close fit, shortening the
drill can cause your counterbore to go undersized.

Harold

"Ken Davey" wrote in message
...
snip----

I have never seen a chip take a ride with a 'D' bit. The D shaped pilot
should sweep the hole of any debris.

Ken.

It's not the same thing. When you are in and out of a hole constantly, chips
often get caught up at the opening of the hole. That's when you get in
trouble. The chip can be greater than the size of the D, so it still gets
wedged. Been there, done that, got the T shirt. Pilots are
trouble------and you must work accordingly.

Harold