Railroad rails
 

'Edison' batteries are a common, and old, form of 'wet cell'. Yes, they
are rechargeable.

I suppose (not sure) the name came about due to their invention (?) or
use by Thomas Edison. They were common in many laboratories around the
turn of the last century. They are still very much 'around' if you know
where to look. They do have some good properties, and survive in special
applications today. They're great for 'UPS' use, and similar fixed
applications where the size and weight of the cell 'bank' are not much
of an issue.

So far we've heard of RR signal use, hospital use, and phone company
use, all presumably to provide some form of back up power.

The less expensive, more rugged, and smaller lead-acid cells supplanted
them for general, and especially portable, use sometime around the
1930's, if not before.

Dan Mitchell
==========

Don Bruder wrote:

In article ,
"Daniel A. Mitchell" wrote:

Sounds like an 'Edison' battery. These are a Nickel-Iron battery,

Hmmm... that's a new one on me. And sounds interesting, to say the least.

have
virtually unlimited life (50 years is common), and don't care much what
charge state they are in

The incredible-sounding life on them could make up for the drawbacks you
mention, it sounds like. Since your hospital uses them to power a UPS, I
presume they're rechargable?

The drawback is inefficiency and bulk. They
typically do have clear glass cells, and look like weird big bottles.

Time for me to go googling and see what I can come up with on the
beasts. I can't imagine them being all that difficult to make, if only
as a "dog catches car" concept. (As in "Hey! Wow, I caught it! Ummm...
Now that I've got it, what do I do with it?" :) )

--
Don Bruder - - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004.
I respond to Email as quick as humanly possible. If you Email me and get no
response, see http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html Short
form: I'm trashing EVERYTHING that doesn't contain a password in the subject.

Railroad rails
 

Spehro Pefhany wrote:

Speaking of railways, ever seen the batteries they use in railway
equipment? One glass container, lots of plates.

Never seen it. No dividers?

What on earth would they want only 1 or 2 volts for? That's hardly
enough to work a relay or light.

Railroad rails
 

The phone company did not use Edison batteries.In 40 years in the trade
and across this country they were always lead-acid batteries.Same for
hospitals.Every 7-15 years they were supposed to be changed out.Edison
batteries were nickel.iron in an alkaline solution.Edison batteries last
longer but did not have a high current output compared to lead-acid.

Railroad rails
 

On Fri, 2 Apr 2004 17:34:55 -0500 (EST), (ED ROGERS)
wrote:

The phone company did not use Edison batteries.In 40 years in the trade
and across this country they were always lead-acid batteries.Same for
hospitals.Every 7-15 years they were supposed to be changed out.Edison
batteries were nickel.iron in an alkaline solution.Edison batteries last
longer but did not have a high current output compared to lead-acid.
I remember a bunch of batteries that had "EDISON" printed on them.
These were either glass or plastic cases. I suspect glass. They were
at a friends house in the workshop. They all had little balls in 'em
to show the specific gravity of the electrolyte. I was told these were
lead acid batteries that were changed out from the local phone
company. Were these actually nickel iron?

Railroad rails
 

On Fri, 2 Apr 2004 17:34:55 -0500 (EST), (ED ROGERS) wrote:
The phone company did not use Edison batteries.In 40 years in the trade
and across this country they were always lead-acid batteries.Same for
hospitals.Every 7-15 years they were supposed to be changed out.Edison
batteries were nickel.iron in an alkaline solution.Edison batteries last
longer but did not have a high current output compared to lead-acid.

Then explain to me why the ones I have bear tags marked "Property of
the Bell System".

And trust me, I know the difference between an Edison cell and lead-acid
cells. These are large (approx 40 pounds) glass cased cells with a KOH
electrolyte. When fully charged, they have a surface potential of 1.71 volts.
When a load is applied, that rapidly drops to 1.16 volts and remains about
1 volt until they reach full discharge, at which time the voltage drops rapidly
to 0.6 volts.

I got two banks of 48 cells each from the phone company (free for the
hauling) when they were remodeling and upgrading an old central office.

Advantages of Edison cells, very long life, virtually no out gassing when
charging, no corrosive acid fumes, very flat discharge curve, no toxic
cadmium or lead. Life is not affected by state of charge, ie you can float
them at about 1 volt per cell indefinitely, or let them sit fully discharged
for years.

Disadvantages, high self-discharge rate, low voltage per cell, and low
current capacity for their size.

The big grabbers for UPS use are no out gassing, so you can safely
keep them indoors without elaborate venting arrangements, and the
flat discharge curve. That makes them very suitable for floating across
the mains when feeding a full time UPS, or for supplying "battery" voltage
in a phone application. The high self-discharge characteristic is moot in
those services since they're always on charge except during power
failures.

The low voltage per cell, and the relatively low energy density mean that
you need a good bit of room to keep them, though. They occupy one
whole wall of my attached garage, 3 high on a (heavy) wooden rack I
built for them.

The two sets of cells were combined to produce the 96 volts my UPS
wants. I modified the lead-acid charger the UPS originally used. It is
basically just a stiffly regulated DC supply with high current limiting.
By keeping the set voltage below the full charge voltage of the Edison
cells, I avoid destructive over-charging. I sacrifice a bit of capacity that
way, but this is a *huge* battery bank, and I can afford to do that to
produce a "no worries" system.

I don't know how old these cells are, any date codes were long ago
obliterated. But since they measure good, I expect they'll last the
rest of my lifetime the way I'm using them. That sure beats replacing
banks of sealed lead-acid batteries every 2 or 3 years as I was doing
before. The price was right too.

Gary

Railroad rails
 

On Fri, 02 Apr 2004 15:29:19 -0800, Eric R Snow
wrote:
On Fri, 2 Apr 2004 17:34:55 -0500 (EST), (ED ROGERS)
wrote:

The phone company did not use Edison batteries.In 40 years in the trade
and across this country they were always lead-acid batteries.Same for
hospitals.Every 7-15 years they were supposed to be changed out.Edison
batteries were nickel.iron in an alkaline solution.Edison batteries last
longer but did not have a high current output compared to lead-acid.

I remember a bunch of batteries that had "EDISON" printed on them.
These were either glass or plastic cases. I suspect glass. They were
at a friends house in the workshop. They all had little balls in 'em
to show the specific gravity of the electrolyte. I was told these were
lead acid batteries that were changed out from the local phone
company. Were these actually nickel iron?

Most phone company batteries are lead-calcium acid type tank cells,
in clear plastic tanks. Like a /big/ deep-cycle marine battery. 20 to
30 year service life if treated well.

Popular size for GTE was 26 cells at 4200 AH (23 cells in service
for -50V nominal on float, and 3 end cells), and between three and six
strings in parallel depending on the size of the switchroom. Main
busses are four 4" x 1/4" copper busbars in parallel. You can do some
serious welding with those busbars if you screw up...

-- Bruce --

--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

Railroad rails
 

In the 50's, my dad brought home two telephone battery cases - They were
a good 3x3x4' - half inch glass - one molded item. We used them for
salt water fish in our little fish store.

They didn't rust!

Martin
Eric R Snow wrote:

On Fri, 2 Apr 2004 17:34:55 -0500 (EST), (ED ROGERS)
wrote:


The phone company did not use Edison batteries.In 40 years in the trade
and across this country they were always lead-acid batteries.Same for
hospitals.Every 7-15 years they were supposed to be changed out.Edison
batteries were nickel.iron in an alkaline solution.Edison batteries last
longer but did not have a high current output compared to lead-acid.

I remember a bunch of batteries that had "EDISON" printed on them.
These were either glass or plastic cases. I suspect glass. They were
at a friends house in the workshop. They all had little balls in 'em
to show the specific gravity of the electrolyte. I was told these were
lead acid batteries that were changed out from the local phone
company. Were these actually nickel iron?


--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

Railroad rails
 

My brother in law's father worked for Edison battery into the 1970's in
NJ and he made lead acid batteries.It also screwed up his mind from lead
poisoning at the end of his life.

Railroad rails
 

I worked for both GTE&Western Electric and the ones I put in were about
5 foot high and close to a ton in weight.The lead-calcium came later
on.When I first started they were black hard rubber lead-acid.Have seen
guys mess up and vaporize a wrench and get their hands burnt.Sometimes
it left a copper like plating on the back of their hands.This happens
when you get careless after doing many installs and take short-cuts.You
live and learn.

Railroad rails
 

Sorry, but I saw huge racks of Edison batteries in use in the local
phone systems ca. 1950.

And one, at least, of the local major hospitals STILL uses Edison
batteries for it's main power back up (UPS) system ... a whole room full
of them. They are bulky and relatively inefficient, but FAR more
reliable and lower maintenance than lead-acid batteries. If space is not
a big issue they are still a good choice, especialy where reliability is
a MAJOR issue.

Dan Mitchell
==========

ED ROGERS wrote:

The phone company did not use Edison batteries.In 40 years in the trade
and across this country they were always lead-acid batteries.Same for
hospitals.Every 7-15 years they were supposed to be changed out.Edison
batteries were nickel.iron in an alkaline solution.Edison batteries last
longer but did not have a high current output compared to lead-acid.

Railroad rails
 

With the 'Edison' imbossed in the glass cases, it's HIGHLY likely they
were 'Edison' Ni-Fe batteries!

However, lead acid calls can also use glass cases, but that's a real rarity.

Dan Mitchell
==========

Eric R Snow wrote:

On Fri, 2 Apr 2004 17:34:55 -0500 (EST), (ED ROGERS)
wrote:

The phone company did not use Edison batteries.In 40 years in the trade
and across this country they were always lead-acid batteries.Same for
hospitals.Every 7-15 years they were supposed to be changed out.Edison
batteries were nickel.iron in an alkaline solution.Edison batteries last
longer but did not have a high current output compared to lead-acid.
I remember a bunch of batteries that had "EDISON" printed on them.
These were either glass or plastic cases. I suspect glass. They were
at a friends house in the workshop. They all had little balls in 'em
to show the specific gravity of the electrolyte. I was told these were
lead acid batteries that were changed out from the local phone
company. Were these actually nickel iron?

Railroad rails
 

Offbreed wrote in message ...
ED ROGERS wrote:

There is a belief that the Ark of the Covenant used primitive electric
cells to shock anyone touching it.The wrath of Jahweh.


Sounds reasonable, but...

Galvanic cells only produce about 1 volt. It'd take an awful lot of
them to shock someone.




For what it's worth, some think the ark was actually a capacitor. I
can remember reading an article somewhere about a group of students at
an engineering school (University of Pennsylvania possibly) that built
a replica of the ark using the dimensions given in the bible, and they
found that it was capable of holding a lethal charge. The article went
on to say that it was later disassembled because it was considered
dangerous. Of course, this brings up the question of how the ancients
charged it and what they would have used it for.
Mike

Railroad rails
 

On 6 Apr 2004 14:19:39 -0700, (MikeM) wrote:
ED ROGERS wrote:

There is a belief that the Ark of the Covenant used primitive electric
cells to shock anyone touching it.The wrath of Jahweh.


For what it's worth, some think the ark was actually a capacitor. I
can remember reading an article somewhere about a group of students at
an engineering school (University of Pennsylvania possibly) that built
a replica of the ark using the dimensions given in the bible, and they
found that it was capable of holding a lethal charge. The article went
on to say that it was later disassembled because it was considered
dangerous. Of course, this brings up the question of how the ancients
charged it and what they would have used it for.
Mike

Cats, lots of cats.

Gary