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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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Railroad rails
How were rails made in the 1800's?Were they cast or did they have
rolling mills back then using steam or hydropower? |
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Railroad rails
In article , ED ROGERS
wrote: How were rails made in the 1800's?Were they cast or did they have rolling mills back then using steam or hydropower? Rolling mills have been around a loooooong time. The wheels for the trains started off as cast, but later were drop-forged. |
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"Ernie Leimkuhler" wrote in message
... In article , ED ROGERS wrote: How were rails made in the 1800's?Were they cast or did they have rolling mills back then using steam or hydropower? Rolling mills have been around a loooooong time. The wheels for the trains started off as cast, but later were drop-forged. Rolling mills have been around since the mid-1700s, in England. I think the first ones in the US were built late in the century. Some of the early ones in England were steam-powered. What they rolled, though, was "puddled" iron, a late version of wrought iron. Railroad rails were made of wrought iron until the 1860s, at which time they began to switch to steel. By 1880, the making of iron rails had nearly ceased. Ed Huntress |
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Railroad rails
One of the problems of the "strap rails" was the rail coming off the wood
and coming up into the car as it was going down the rail, this killed and hurt many. |
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Railroad rails
Ernie Leimkuhler wrote:
In article , ED ROGERS wrote: How were rails made in the 1800's?Were they cast or did they have rolling mills back then using steam or hydropower? Rolling mills have been around a loooooong time. The wheels for the trains started off as cast, but later were drop-forged. I have a book ("What Steel Shall I Use?") from 1940 or so that lists then-current railroad technology as a cast wheel hub with a steel tire shrunk on. At some point I'm sure they went to all-steel, but I don't know when. --------------------------------------- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com |
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These were called: "Snakeheads"! And, yes, they were NASTY!
Dan Mitchell ========== Wayne wrote: One of the problems of the "strap rails" was the rail coming off the wood and coming up into the car as it was going down the rail, this killed and hurt many. |
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There was a period when wood and even paper cored wheels were used. The
paper wheels were a large disk of thick compressed paper, with an attached bushing for the axle, and an outer steel tire. Some of these had a ring of visible bolts to attach the paper disk to a flange on the axle. Advantages included quieter operation, and some resiliency. The cast iron wheels frequently had a spiral-ribbed back surface to assist in heat radiation (from braking), and to reduce overall weight. Due to many failures of the cast iron wheels, all steel ones were eventually required. Most such wheels are one piece, pressed on their axles, but some of the larger ones, especially on locomotives, have replaceable steel 'tires' at their rims. Such tires were the norm on steam locos, but rare on today's Diesels. Dan Mitchell ========== Tim Wescott wrote: Ernie Leimkuhler wrote: In article , ED ROGERS wrote: How were rails made in the 1800's?Were they cast or did they have rolling mills back then using steam or hydropower? Rolling mills have been around a loooooong time. The wheels for the trains started off as cast, but later were drop-forged. I have a book ("What Steel Shall I Use?") from 1940 or so that lists then-current railroad technology as a cast wheel hub with a steel tire shrunk on. At some point I'm sure they went to all-steel, but I don't know when. --------------------------------------- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com |
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Thanks gentlemen for your replies.I didn't know the power source for the
rolling mill and how it was capable, with the technology of the day,in exerting the high pressures to form the rail.Did they use hydraulics to get the pressure applied? |
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Railroad rails
ED ROGERS wrote:
Thanks gentlemen for your replies.I didn't know the power source for the rolling mill and how it was capable, with the technology of the day,in exerting the high pressures to form the rail.Did they use hydraulics to get the pressure applied? Rolling mills produce product by rolling it through progressively reduced grooves in opposing rolls at fixed centres. After each pass the material is shifted to the next reduction groove. As the rolls are reversible there is minimal lost time. The reduction steps are biggest at the beginning due to the heat of the material, reducing towards the finishing stages. Tom Tom |
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Railroad rails
No hydraulics used in any of the mills. The old mills used screw
jacks, mostly manually cranked to lower the rollers. Roller stands were run off a line shaft using massive mechanical clutches, then fed to a gear reduction to drive the rollers. Each stand in a series of roller stands has to run faster than the last since the metal has been squeezed smaller and longer. A big issue in running the mill is to make sure the each roller stand is adjusted to match the speed of the next roller down the line. Any mismatch and you get bulging or pulling. As an aside, take a look at the profiles for the various "I" beam and channel iron stock. Example: an 8" I beam of any weight has the same inside flange to flange dimension as all of the 8" channel products. They had one size of roller to roll the channel, adjusted the rest of the machine to make the web thicker but not the flange thicker. The result is that the heavier beams are not very ecomincal for their strength. Too much metal in the web, not enough in the flange. But that was somewhat ok since most of those beams where rivited into larger beams with the ubiquous cross hatch straps seen on old bridgres. That put the metal on the outside of the shape where it needs to be for max strength to weight ratio. One more thing to mull over: the size of beams has increased over the years. The largest beam listed in my 13th edition Machinery Handbook from 1946 is 120 pound per foot in a 24" beam. Modern mills will do triple that per foot. Bigger equipment. ED ROGERS wrote: Thanks gentlemen for your replies.I didn't know the power source for the rolling mill and how it was capable, with the technology of the day,in exerting the high pressures to form the rail.Did they use hydraulics to get the pressure applied? |
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If you would like to see one of the engines that powered rolling mills at
the turn of the century, take a look at www.todengine.org . There are only two rolling mill steam engines in existence in the U.S., one of which we have here in Youngstown and the other is preserved in Pittsburgh. BTW, William Tod Co. started building rolling mill engines in the 1850s. Rick "ED ROGERS" wrote in message ... How were rails made in the 1800's?Were they cast or did they have rolling mills back then using steam or hydropower? |
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I got to see an old rolling mill, still in use, in 1977. Bethelehem
Steel in Bethlehem PA was still using a steam powered mill to roll I-beams. It was interesting, but kind of a bad sign that they were still using anything that old in production, it should have been in a museum. (Fortunately, I did not work for them long). They said that this mill had rolled the beams for the skyscrapers in New York, as I remember it they were referring to around 1900. This particular mill had been updated with electrical adjustment of the thickness, and electrical controls, but the rollers were still powered by steam. Rolling mills have been around for a long time. I am pretty sure that they would have been steam powered in the 1800s, you need some speed to roll metal before it cools. Also, steam is more readily reversible than water power, and normally the metal goes through the mill several times to reach the final dimension, so reversible is good. Richard ------------------- ED ROGERS wrote: How were rails made in the 1800's?Were they cast or did they have rolling mills back then using steam or hydropower? |
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In my county, rails made by Carnegie Steel Corporation in the 1890s are still in use. Pre-1936 rails are usually removed, not because they are necessarily defective, but because their salvage value is greater than post-1936 (Controlled Cooled) rails, for use in making razor blades. |
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Richard,
The mill you are referring to was the Grey wide flange beam mill. It was powered by three William Tod Company steam engines, built in 1906. The plant last operated in 1995 and the mill including the last remaining engine was to be preserved for an industrial museum, however when Bethlehem declared bankruptcy there was not enough money to buy the engine and mill and it was scrapped a few months ago. Rick "Richard Ferguson" wrote in message ... I got to see an old rolling mill, still in use, in 1977. Bethelehem Steel in Bethlehem PA was still using a steam powered mill to roll I-beams. It was interesting, but kind of a bad sign that they were still using anything that old in production, it should have been in a museum. (Fortunately, I did not work for them long). They said that this mill had rolled the beams for the skyscrapers in New York, as I remember it they were referring to around 1900. This particular mill had been updated with electrical adjustment of the thickness, and electrical controls, but the rollers were still powered by steam. Rolling mills have been around for a long time. I am pretty sure that they would have been steam powered in the 1800s, you need some speed to roll metal before it cools. Also, steam is more readily reversible than water power, and normally the metal goes through the mill several times to reach the final dimension, so reversible is good. Richard ------------------- ED ROGERS wrote: How were rails made in the 1800's?Were they cast or did they have rolling mills back then using steam or hydropower? |
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Railroad rails
Again thanks for your input.I was amazed at the degree of the machine
technology for that time.To top it off the rails don't have" MADE IN CHINA" on them.(I hope) |
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Railroad rails
When we talk about rolling mills, keep in mind that Bessemer did not produce
steel until 1855. Prior to that, the Iron-Carbon-Silicon chemistry was a mystery. "Gary Coffman" wrote in message ... On Tue, 30 Mar 2004 17:15:35 -0500 (EST), (ED ROGERS) wrote: Again thanks for your input.I was amazed at the degree of the machine technology for that time.To top it off the rails don't have" MADE IN CHINA" on them.(I hope) Rolling mills (though not railroad rail rolling mills) have been around since at least the second century AD. The ancients were as smart as we are. We've found ancient machines, instruments, even batteries, that rival anything from the industrial age. But in ancient times the technology didn't spread far beyond the shops of its inventors. What's changed in the last two centuries are the economic and political systems which allow us to organize to exploit technology on much larger scales. Capitalism, and the limited liability corporation, upward mobility, relative freedom, etc have allowed us to harness the native cleverness and greed of human beings on a much larger scale than has ever been possible before. Gary |
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Railroad rails
On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 05:17:46 GMT, "Alan Black" wrote:
When we talk about rolling mills, keep in mind that Bessemer did not produce steel until 1855. Prior to that, the Iron-Carbon-Silicon chemistry was a mystery. It wasn't a mystery, but the Bessemer process, soon followed by the open hearth process, made steel cheap to produce in mass quantities. Prior to these processes being put into place, steel was made by the crucible process and by carburization of wrought iron (blister steel). Those methods were not cheap, nor well adapted to mass production, but they were capable of producing excellent steel long before Bessemer made it cheap. Prior to cheap mass produced steel, rolling mills rolled wrought iron. (Much of the iron age depended on wrought iron as the primary form of malleable iron.) Gary |
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Railroad rails
Gary Coffman wrote: Rolling mills (though not railroad rail rolling mills) have been around since at least the second century AD. The ancients were as smart as we are. We've found ancient machines, instruments, even batteries, that rival anything from the industrial age. But in ancient times the technology didn't spread far beyond the shops of its inventors. Batteries? Care to expand on that statement? (Assuming you are talking about something earlier than Leydan jars.) Joe |
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Railroad rails
Hi, Related Info. I needed an anvil for jewelery making. Decided to
cut short piece from railroad rail with chop saw. That rail was classic definition of "work hardened". I really beat up a 14 inch chop saw blade to cut through the rail. Darrell |
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Railroad rails
The 'head' (top) of a railroad rail is normally hardened for wear
resistance. The 'web' (vertical piece) and 'base' (bottom) are usually NOT hardened, for resiliency. A rail is a little like a bandsaw blade, hard on one edge and soft on the other. And, yes, age and 'work hardening' can alter things. Remember that a rail in service is being continually re-'rolled' every time a train passes over it. The railroads are currently playing a 'game' of increasing car weight (axle loading) at the expense of rail life, trying to find the optimum overall cost efficiency. Rails don't last as long as they used to due to the overloading. A typical 4-axle freight car used to weigh 50 tons, then 70 tons, then 100 tons, and now up to 125 tons. The rails pay the price, and some railroads have backed off on the 125 ton cars. Another cause of rail failure is 'hammering' as the cars passed over the rail joints. Rails used to be 39 feet long. Now 1200 ft lengths are common. LOTS fewer joints to cause problems. Dan Mitchell ========== Darrell Coble wrote: Hi, Related Info. I needed an anvil for jewelery making. Decided to cut short piece from railroad rail with chop saw. That rail was classic definition of "work hardened". I really beat up a 14 inch chop saw blade to cut through the rail. Darrell |
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On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 09:40:11 -0500, Joe wrote:
Batteries? Care to expand on that statement? (Assuming you are talking about something earlier than Leydan jars.) A Leyden jar is a capacitor. What I'm talking about are primary cells. Archeologists have found a six cell battery in the Middle East that is 3,000 years old. The suspected use was for electroplating coinage, ie counterfeiting, by some Ye Olde Tyme Alchemist. Through the years, the goal of thousands and thousands of secretive alchemists was to turn lead into gold. This old boy may have figured out how, at least well enough to run a scam. Gary |
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Railroad rails
In article , Gary Coffman says...
ars.) A Leyden jar is a capacitor. What I'm talking about are primary cells. Archeologists have found a six cell battery in the Middle East that is 3,000 years old. The suspected use was for electroplating coinage, ie counterfeiting, by some Ye Olde Tyme Alchemist. The generally accepted use of those old cells was for electroplating jewlery. There always *was* one born every minute! Jim ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
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Railroad rails
There is a belief that the Ark of the Covenant used primitive electric
cells to shock anyone touching it.The wrath of Jahweh. |
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Railroad rails
ED ROGERS wrote:
There is a belief that the Ark of the Covenant used primitive electric cells to shock anyone touching it.The wrath of Jahweh. Sounds reasonable, but... Galvanic cells only produce about 1 volt. It'd take an awful lot of them to shock someone. |
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On Thu, 01 Apr 2004 00:04:24 -0500, the renowned Gary Coffman
wrote: On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 22:43:09 -0500 (EST), (ED ROGERS) wrote: There is a belief that the Ark of the Covenant used primitive electric cells to shock anyone touching it.The wrath of Jahweh. People believe all sorts of things, but is there any *evidence*? It'd take a pretty hefty stack of cells to produce a shock to someone just touching the ark, or an electric fence charger/ Tesla coil. Maybe they had the latter too? Possible? Maybe. Unlikely? Damn straight! Gary These days you could just snap 25 or 50 9V batteries together, but I suppose those folks had more time on their hands and could stack up metal plates and put them in a jar with electrolyte. shrug Best regards, Spehro Pefhany -- "it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com |
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Gary Coffman wrote:
On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 22:43:09 -0500 (EST), (ED ROGERS) wrote: There is a belief that the Ark of the Covenant used primitive electric cells to shock anyone touching it.The wrath of Jahweh. People believe all sorts of things, but is there any *evidence*? It'd take a pretty hefty stack of cells to produce a shock to someone just touching the ark, or an electric fence charger/ Tesla coil. Maybe they had the latter too? Possible? Maybe. Unlikely? Damn straight! That's a dry country, they had rock floors, and wore a lot of wool. Seems they should be very familiar with getting zapped. |
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Spehro Pefhany wrote:
These days you could just snap 25 or 50 9V batteries together, but I suppose those folks had more time on their hands and could stack up metal plates and put them in a jar with electrolyte. shrug "jars" Plural. More plates in one jar give current. |
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Offbreed wrote:
Spehro Pefhany wrote: These days you could just snap 25 or 50 9V batteries together, but I suppose those folks had more time on their hands and could stack up metal plates and put them in a jar with electrolyte. shrug "jars" Plural. More plates in one jar give current. Nope, depends on how they're connected - plates in series give more voltage, in parallel, more current... |
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On Thu, 01 Apr 2004 16:01:01 -0600, Bob Robinson wrote:
Offbreed wrote: Spehro Pefhany wrote: These days you could just snap 25 or 50 9V batteries together, but I suppose those folks had more time on their hands and could stack up metal plates and put them in a jar with electrolyte. shrug "jars" Plural. More plates in one jar give current. Nope, depends on how they're connected - plates in series give more voltage, in parallel, more current... Every anode in a common electrolyte bath is connected with every cathode *through the electrolyte*. If you draw this out, you'll see that if you tried to create muliple series connected cells in a single common electrolyte, only the end plates would be active in the external circuit, the others are effectively shorted out by being strapped together in anode-cathode pairs in between. That's why there are dividers to isolate the electrolyte between the cells in a car battery, otherwise it would only output 2 volts instead of 12 volts, and would get very hot because all the intermediate anode-cathode pairs are dead shorted by straps. Because there *are* dividers (think of them as creating individual jars), the cells aren't in a common electrolyte, and each cell series adds with the others because the straps are between the anode of one cell and the cathode of a *different* cell. The battery is thus not internally shorted, and gives us 12 volts. Gary |
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Railroad rails
Bob Robinson wrote:
Offbreed wrote: Spehro Pefhany wrote: These days you could just snap 25 or 50 9V batteries together, but I suppose those folks had more time on their hands and could stack up metal plates and put them in a jar with electrolyte. shrug "jars" Plural. More plates in one jar give current. Nope, depends on how they're connected - plates in series give more voltage, in parallel, more current... In series in _one_ jar (one cell) and the ones in the middle are going to short out. Try drawing it and seeing how the current flow will go. Take a look at a car battery. Each cell is seperate from the others. |
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Railroad rails
On Thu, 01 Apr 2004 19:22:40 -0800, the renowned Offbreed
wrote: Bob Robinson wrote: Offbreed wrote: Spehro Pefhany wrote: These days you could just snap 25 or 50 9V batteries together, but I suppose those folks had more time on their hands and could stack up metal plates and put them in a jar with electrolyte. shrug "jars" Plural. More plates in one jar give current. Nope, depends on how they're connected - plates in series give more voltage, in parallel, more current... In series in _one_ jar (one cell) and the ones in the middle are going to short out. Try drawing it and seeing how the current flow will go. Speaking of railways, ever seen the batteries they use in railway equipment? One glass container, lots of plates. Best regards, Spehro Pefhany -- "it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com |
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Gary Coffman wrote:
On Thu, 01 Apr 2004 16:01:01 -0600, Bob Robinson wrote: Offbreed wrote: Spehro Pefhany wrote: These days you could just snap 25 or 50 9V batteries together, but I suppose those folks had more time on their hands and could stack up metal plates and put them in a jar with electrolyte. shrug "jars" Plural. More plates in one jar give current. Nope, depends on how they're connected - plates in series give more voltage, in parallel, more current... Every anode in a common electrolyte bath is connected with every cathode *through the electrolyte*. If you draw this out, you'll see that if you tried to create muliple series connected cells in a single common electrolyte, only the end plates would be active in the external circuit, the others are effectively shorted out by being strapped together in anode-cathode pairs in between. That's why there are dividers to isolate the electrolyte between the cells in a car battery, otherwise it would only output 2 volts instead of 12 volts, and would get very hot because all the intermediate anode-cathode pairs are dead shorted by straps. Because there *are* dividers (think of them as creating individual jars), the cells aren't in a common electrolyte, and each cell series adds with the others because the straps are between the anode of one cell and the cathode of a *different* cell. The battery is thus not internally shorted, and gives us 12 volts. Gary You're right, of course. Rather than a "jar" I was thinking of the car battery arrangement, with the electrolyte/plate sets separated into cells. Sorry about that... Bob |
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Railroad rails
Sounds like an 'Edison' battery. These are a Nickel-Iron battery, have
virtually unlimited life (50 years is common), and don't care much what charge state they are in The drawback is inefficiency and bulk. They typically do have clear glass cells, and look like weird big bottles. One of our local hospitals uses them for their HUGE 'UPS' system ... a whole ROOMFULL of them. Dan Mitchell ========== Spehro Pefhany wrote: On Thu, 01 Apr 2004 19:22:40 -0800, the renowned Offbreed wrote: Bob Robinson wrote: Offbreed wrote: Spehro Pefhany wrote: These days you could just snap 25 or 50 9V batteries together, but I suppose those folks had more time on their hands and could stack up metal plates and put them in a jar with electrolyte. shrug "jars" Plural. More plates in one jar give current. Nope, depends on how they're connected - plates in series give more voltage, in parallel, more current... In series in _one_ jar (one cell) and the ones in the middle are going to short out. Try drawing it and seeing how the current flow will go. Speaking of railways, ever seen the batteries they use in railway equipment? One glass container, lots of plates. Best regards, Spehro Pefhany -- "it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com |
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On Fri, 02 Apr 2004 10:28:13 -0500, "Daniel A. Mitchell" wrote:
Sounds like an 'Edison' battery. These are a Nickel-Iron battery, have virtually unlimited life (50 years is common), and don't care much what charge state they are in The drawback is inefficiency and bulk. They typically do have clear glass cells, and look like weird big bottles. One of our local hospitals uses them for their HUGE 'UPS' system ... a whole ROOMFULL of them. I use them for my UPS too. Got them from the phone company. Gary |
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In article ,
"Daniel A. Mitchell" wrote: Sounds like an 'Edison' battery. These are a Nickel-Iron battery, Hmmm... that's a new one on me. And sounds interesting, to say the least. have virtually unlimited life (50 years is common), and don't care much what charge state they are in The incredible-sounding life on them could make up for the drawbacks you mention, it sounds like. Since your hospital uses them to power a UPS, I presume they're rechargable? The drawback is inefficiency and bulk. They typically do have clear glass cells, and look like weird big bottles. Time for me to go googling and see what I can come up with on the beasts. I can't imagine them being all that difficult to make, if only as a "dog catches car" concept. (As in "Hey! Wow, I caught it! Ummm... Now that I've got it, what do I do with it?" ) -- Don Bruder - - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004. I respond to Email as quick as humanly possible. If you Email me and get no response, see http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html Short form: I'm trashing EVERYTHING that doesn't contain a password in the subject. |
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