Hello, rcm.

Here are some related and inter-related terms, with some having pages
defining them.

I have found these terms to be in limited use, and useful:

John (Johnny, Janos) Von Neumann: Hungarian mathematician, author of
"Theory of Self-Reproducing Automata", which established an existence
proof for self-reproduction with an example cellular automaton having
28 states.
http://ei.cs.vt.edu/~history/VonNeumann.html

Von Neumann machine: Either the shared program/variable memory model of
linear RAM for a computer, or a self-reproducing machine, the first
sense in much greater use than the second. Writing a self-reproducing
program in the shared program/variable model machine is the one of the
first famous computer hacks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann_machine

Von Neumann probe: A self-reproducing interplanetary probe.
http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclo...mannprobe.html

Grey goo: Unlimited reproduction of a self-reproducing technology,
consuming all available raw material and energy, producing nothing of
value.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gray_goo

Autoproductive (factory, machine, or tool set): Capable of
self-reproduction with the assistance of an operator, and so not a
source of grey goo. http://www.crnano.org/crnglossary.htm Also,
http://www.msubillings.edu/bplank/AN...SURREALISM.htm

Auxilioproductive: A refinement of the word "autoproductive" proposed
by Freitas and Kyle in "Kinematic Self-Replicating Machines," implying
more clearly that an *operator* is required. An example of blacksmith's
tools is given there.
http://www.molecularassembler.com/KSRM/5.1.9.J.htm

Machine tool: A machine that removes material selectively, usually from
a metal workpiece, producing a feature or part, which can be a useful
finished object, a component of another machine, or a part of a machine
tool
http://www-me.mit.edu/Lectures/Machi...s/outline.html

Production: The manufacture of objects or materials.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/production

Mass production: The manufacture of useful objects using
interchangeable parts which do not need to be modified to fit the final
application; they need only to be assembled.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_production

Reproduction: Usually reserved for use in biology, the steps of reverse
engineering, producing, assembling, and finishing, as of an antique
table or replacement part no longer available from a failed
manufacturing concern or distributors.

Self-reproduction: Usually reserved for biology, the steps of reverse
engineering, producing, assembling, and finishing a machine tool or
array of machine tools.

Closu Regarding self-reproducing kinematic machines, either matter,
energy, or information closure; the ability to manufacture all that is
needed for self-reproduction.

--------------

My own small contribution to the field, the FrankenMill, is mentioned
in "Kinematic Self-Replicating Machines" and achieved partial matter
closure.

At least one part, the rotary table support, had an additional use as a
self-reproducing drill jig used for reproducing the configuration of
cheap cast iron components (drill press, cross vise, collet indexer,
and lathe chuck) that made up the machine. The machine has been
productive. I built a replacement part for my dentist's denture
grinding fixture with the FrankeMill. More than half the machine
survives to this day. One copy was sold.

Some ideas about making measureable progress towards the goal of full
matter closure in a machine tool with zero energy and information
closure, and avoiding the grey goo problem are presented in a recent
thread here in rec.crafts.metalworking titled "Finally,
Nomenclature...."

http://users.aol.com/DGoncz/FrankenMill.jpg

http://users.aol.com/DGoncz/FrankenMill2.jpg

http://users.aol.com/DGoncz/FrankenMill4.jpg

ftp://users.aol.com/DGoncz

Metrics for matter closure of machine tools are presented there.

Doug Goncz
Replikon Research
Falls Church, VA 22044-0394

wrote:
Hello, rcm.

snip...

Von Neumann machine: Either the shared program/variable memory model of
linear RAM for a computer, or a self-reproducing machine, the first
sense in much greater use than the second. Writing a self-reproducing
program in the shared program/variable model machine is the one of the
first famous computer hacks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann_machine

This is definitely one of the poorer articles
in Wikipedia. I'd not read anything authoritative
into it. The overwhelming meaning of a "Von
Neumann machine" is simply a processor that can
mix instructions and data in the same memory.
And that's the overwhelming type of computer
in existance today.

On Tue, 21 Feb 2006 13:11:13 -0800, Jim Stewart wrote:

This is definitely one of the poorer articles
in Wikipedia. I'd not read anything authoritative
into it. The overwhelming meaning of a "Von
Neumann machine" is simply a processor that can
mix instructions and data in the same memory.
And that's the overwhelming type of computer
in existance today.

You do know that you can go in and fix it, right?

Dave Hinz wrote:

On Tue, 21 Feb 2006 13:11:13 -0800, Jim Stewart wrote:


This is definitely one of the poorer articles
in Wikipedia. I'd not read anything authoritative
into it. The overwhelming meaning of a "Von
Neumann machine" is simply a processor that can
mix instructions and data in the same memory.
And that's the overwhelming type of computer
in existance today.


You do know that you can go in and fix it, right?

Sure do. I've done work on several articles.
This particular one would take a lot of time
and resources to do right and I'm not up to it.

--I see you mentioned "grey goo" but you left out "blue goo"; those
are the nano-gendarmes that will (hypothetically) round up the grey goo.
Heh.

--
"Steamboat Ed" Haas : Living on the fringes of
Hacking the Trailing Edge! : most good bell curves...
http://www.nmpproducts.com/intro.htm
---Decks a-wash in a sea of words---

steamer wrote:
--I see you mentioned "grey goo" but you left out "blue goo"; those
are the nano-gendarmes that will (hypothetically) round up the grey goo.
Heh.

Jah! Mussen Sie *nicht* dem Kleinemachinestadtpolizei vergessen!

Doug

Jim Stewart wrote:
wrote:
Hello, rcm.

snip...

Von Neumann machine: Either the shared program/variable memory model of
linear RAM for a computer, or a self-reproducing machine, the first
sense in much greater use than the second. Writing a self-reproducing
program in the shared program/variable model machine is the one of the
first famous computer hacks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann_machine

This is definitely one of the poorer articles
in Wikipedia. I'd not read anything authoritative
into it. The overwhelming meaning of a "Von
Neumann machine" is simply a processor that can
mix instructions and data in the same memory.
And that's the overwhelming type of computer
in existance today.

I'm not overwhelmed by Jim's argument.

http://www.rattlesnake.com/notions/s..._machines.html

http://www.csupomona.edu/~hnriley/www/VonN.html

Can anyone, including Jim, suggest a term for the nomenclature list to
use to describe a self-reproducing kinematic machine? I think "Clanking
Replicator" is too obvious and that we should continue to pay homage to
Johhny by using this term to describe *either* of his two (I say)
related inventions. "Clanking Replicator" is an onomotopoeic
self-defining term.

One way of thinking about the Von Neumann architecture is to think of
it as the computer architecture option that allows rather than
disallows self-modifying code, or executable data, which are intimately
related to self-reproduction.

It also is the option allowing source code, compiler, and object code
to be in the same bank of memory. Overwhelmingly, this is done with
file handling these days. A LISP machine might be a counterexample to
that statement, but who uses, or rather how many people use LISP these
days? I *like* LISP, by the way....

Doug

wrote:
Jim Stewart wrote:

wrote:

Hello, rcm.

snip...


Von Neumann machine: Either the shared program/variable memory model of
linear RAM for a computer, or a self-reproducing machine, the first
sense in much greater use than the second. Writing a self-reproducing
program in the shared program/variable model machine is the one of the
first famous computer hacks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann_machine

This is definitely one of the poorer articles
in Wikipedia. I'd not read anything authoritative
into it. The overwhelming meaning of a "Von
Neumann machine" is simply a processor that can
mix instructions and data in the same memory.
And that's the overwhelming type of computer
in existance today.


I'm not overwhelmed by Jim's argument.

http://www.rattlesnake.com/notions/s..._machines.html

http://www.csupomona.edu/~hnriley/www/VonN.html

Can anyone, including Jim, suggest a term for the nomenclature list to
use to describe a self-reproducing kinematic machine? I think "Clanking
Replicator" is too obvious and that we should continue to pay homage to
Johhny by using this term to describe *either* of his two (I say)
related inventions. "Clanking Replicator" is an onomotopoeic
self-defining term.

One way of thinking about the Von Neumann architecture is to think of
it as the computer architecture option that allows rather than
disallows self-modifying code, or executable data, which are intimately
related to self-reproduction.

By using a level of indirection, pretty much
any computer architecture can perform the
equivilent of self-modifying code. Assume that
your machine is a Harvard architecture with
separate code and data. Further assume that
your program can't modify it's code. Ok, well
there's still nothing to keep you from writing
a virtual machine that executes virtual machine
code out of the data space. Then, of course,
you can write self-modifying code.

So I just don't get the nexus between Von Neumann
architecture and self-modifying-replicating
machines.

Personally, I have no problem with your term
of "self-reproducing kinematic machine".

It also is the option allowing source code, compiler, and object code
to be in the same bank of memory. Overwhelmingly, this is done with
file handling these days. A LISP machine might be a counterexample to
that statement, but who uses, or rather how many people use LISP these
days? I *like* LISP, by the way....

Doug

Jim has (indirectly) suggested "self-reproducing kinematic machine" to
replace "Von Neumann machine" and as the acronym KSRM is in use for
"kinematic self-reproducing machine", I will use that in the future.

KSRM = Von Neumann machine (of the kinematic type) = clanking
replicator.

Perhaps in writing directed to the X audience I can use the Y
expression:

X Y
Mechanical Engineering KSRM
Physics Von Neumann machine
General/Popular Clanking Replicator

Doug Goncz
Replikon Research
Falls Church, VA 22044-0394