Not sure how to ask this without it sounding "spammish" so I'll just ask and
if you don't like it, please ignore it. I'm a regular lurker here and post
from time to time. Those who know me can probably validate my post as being
legit if they choose to do so. Regardless, I'm posting this to a total of
four forums only. Three public and one private. Here are the public
forums:

alt.machines.cnc
rec.crafts.metalworking
rec.woodworking

I would like to try and identify new keyword terms for our web sites. The
search terms I'm looking for need to contain two to three words that we feel
are useable and not already identified by us. A stray four word term might
be appropriate too.

I would also like to get measurements from a number of milling and drilling
machines so that we can have them on hand if a customer calls with the same
machine. If you have an extremely common CNC machine that would not differ
from customer to customer, we may consider that useful as well.

What I'm offering:

Search terms... We review the list you provide and decide which are good
for us. Then you give me an address and I send you a check. Period.
Seeing as we have been working on search terms and words for a few years,
there is a good chance that most of what people identify will be covered by
us already... But if you give me something that we can use, you get $20 per
search term. We have three products that this will apply to. If you
contact me, I'll tell you more.

Drilling and other machines... You give me a list of the machines you have
in your shop, I will reply back with which ones I would like measured and
what I need. I'll provide a drawing or two via fax or e-mail so that you
know what to look for. You walk over with a micrometer and a caliper and
write stuff down. You reply back and I send you a check. $25 per drill
press or other machine identified and measured.

You can e-mail me privately (the return address here works) or you can call
me.

Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
(908) 542-0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com

V8013-R

On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 15:25:00 GMT, Joe AutoDrill wrote:

I would like to try and identify new keyword terms for our web sites. The
search terms I'm looking for need to contain two to three words that we feel
are useable and not already identified by us. A stray four word term might
be appropriate too.

Best advice I can give, is to google for the stuff you're selling, see
who comes up on the front page, and see what their keywords are.
Incorporate the ones that honestly describe your site's content into
yours. Google changes how they rank sites frequently, but that'll tell
you what's working today. Keywords are only a part of it, and there's a
whole science/art/black magic to getting higher google ratings, but
that's a good start for the keywords.

Did you ever get a chance to try that Norwegian brown cheese, Joe?

Best advice I can give, is to google for the stuff you're selling, see
who comes up on the front page, and see what their keywords are.
Incorporate the ones that honestly describe your site's content into
yours. Google changes how they rank sites frequently, but that'll tell
you what's working today. Keywords are only a part of it, and there's a
whole science/art/black magic to getting higher google ratings, but
that's a good start for the keywords.

Exactly the reason I'm asking for others' thoughts. What I would type in
may be different from what you would type in when looking for the same
product.

Did you ever get a chance to try that Norwegian brown cheese, Joe?

No. Got too busy here to even think about looking for it.
--


Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
(908) 542-0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com

V8013-R

Dave is right--there is a whole voodoo culture behind these rankings.

Rankings have to do not just w/ keywords, but how/w whom you are linked, and
the content/# pages of your site, etc. In a sense, the site is kind of
graded/evaluated for *quality* by (some)search engines, and, if I've
understood correctly, also *penalized* for rankiing strategies they view as
deceptive!

I used to belong to a web developers forum, and wouldn't you know I forgot
the name/url. But I've been meaning to get back, cuz these people *live and
die* for rankings. Apparently they can get fired or lose accounts if
rankings fall, etc.
Anyway, when I find it again, I'll shoot it to you, I think you'll find it
useful.

Also, different search engines have different ways of ranking sites. Fwiu,
they try and keep their ranking strategies somewhat secret, as full
knowledge would then give web developers ways to manipulate them. But there
seems to be general knowledge about what's going on, at least in these
forums.

Altho google seems to be able to identify commonly mis-spelled words in
searches, I would take whatever search terms have been chosen, and use
multiple spellings as well. Must be about 50 mis-spellings of "pneumatic".


A guy I know, who don't throw money away, says his "cost of doing web
business" is about $600/mo, just to take care of stuff like this. He is
more than smart enough to do it himself, but he opts to pay for some kind of
service, etc. I think google also takes $$ directly, for whatever whatever,
which affects rankings.

In that forum I frequented, I believe they spoke highly of listings in
directories as well, esp. for specialty stuff such as yours. Thomas
Register was the biggie, but there are others. Sleuthing them down is proly
an art, as well.

Yeah, Joe, we work for *free*, around here!
--
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll
"Joe AutoDrill" wrote in message
newsKqEf.5994$J81.3966@trndny01...
Best advice I can give, is to google for the stuff you're selling, see
who comes up on the front page, and see what their keywords are.
Incorporate the ones that honestly describe your site's content into
yours. Google changes how they rank sites frequently, but that'll tell
you what's working today. Keywords are only a part of it, and there's a
whole science/art/black magic to getting higher google ratings, but
that's a good start for the keywords.

Exactly the reason I'm asking for others' thoughts. What I would type in
may be different from what you would type in when looking for the same
product.

Did you ever get a chance to try that Norwegian brown cheese, Joe?

No. Got too busy here to even think about looking for it.
--


Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
(908) 542-0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com

V8013-R

On Thu, 2 Feb 2006 12:20:36 -0500, Proctologically Violated©® wrote:
Dave is right--there is a whole voodoo culture behind these rankings.

Rankings have to do not just w/ keywords, but how/w whom you are linked, and
the content/# pages of your site, etc. In a sense, the site is kind of
graded/evaluated for *quality* by (some)search engines, and, if I've
understood correctly, also *penalized* for rankiing strategies they view as
deceptive!

Right. That's why it's important that the keywords don't get spammy,
google knows that trick and ranks accordingly.

I used to belong to a web developers forum, and wouldn't you know I forgot
the name/url. But I've been meaning to get back, cuz these people *live and
die* for rankings. Apparently they can get fired or lose accounts if
rankings fall, etc.

Oh yeah. Gotta be on the first page of results, near the top of course.
It's unfair but it's true - who clicks through to the eighth page to
read something? If I get too many hits, I add a search term and re-spin
the search. I'm sure I'm not alone.

Anyway, when I find it again, I'll shoot it to you, I think you'll find it
useful.

Also, different search engines have different ways of ranking sites.

Sure, but really, what's the point of optimising for anything other than
google?

A guy I know, who don't throw money away, says his "cost of doing web
business" is about $600/mo, just to take care of stuff like this. He is
more than smart enough to do it himself, but he opts to pay for some kind of
service, etc. I think google also takes $$ directly, for whatever whatever,
which affects rankings.

google's adwords program might also be a good fit for Joe's business.
That way you're a sponsored link rather than just another match buried
deep down below.

Yeah, Joe, we work for *free*, around here!

Well, for friends & family, I consult for (good) beer. For others,
well, I know this guy who can help you out

On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 17:47:16 GMT, Ignoramus25402 wrote:

1) browse through your web logs and find all searches (references to
search engines) and see what people search for

That's a good point. Joe, do you have access to your webserver logs?
If so, do you know someone who can do some slice & dice analysis of
those logs to get that info (hint-hint - yes, you do)

Then, once you identified possible keywords, you can think about how
to attract people looking for them.

Getting intel on what your site's visitors are doing is always helpful,
yes. If you want help, advice, or direct webfile analysis, let me know.

Hey Ig,

I don't recall your ever mentioning you have an algebra site! Great site!!
Awesome stat thingy, as well.
But, apropos of the Shop Math thread, I saw no explicit category for trig.

Looks like a real labor of love. Do you do it all yourself?
According to your stat engine, you get a *tremendous* # of hits.

But here's a Q:
It seems your site is mostly a free service. Why would someone then want to
go to some of the paid services?

Why don't you put your site url in your sig?
And mebbe give yourself a new name, like the Quadratic King, or mebbe even
Binomially Violated....
--
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll
"Ignoramus25402" wrote in message
...
On 2 Feb 2006 18:32:17 GMT, Dave Hinz wrote:
On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 17:47:16 GMT, Ignoramus25402
wrote:

1) browse through your web logs and find all searches (references to
search engines) and see what people search for

That's a good point. Joe, do you have access to your webserver logs?
If so, do you know someone who can do some slice & dice analysis of
those logs to get that info (hint-hint - yes, you do)

There are also nice web server log analysis tools such as analog. I
use it to display statistics of my own site. It can be found at
www.analog.cx, IIRC.

See example of its use

http://www.algebra.com/misc/analog/analog.html

and its "search query report"

http://www.algebra.com/misc/analog/analog.html#searchq

Then, once you identified possible keywords, you can think about how
to attract people looking for them.

Getting intel on what your site's visitors are doing is always helpful,
yes. If you want help, advice, or direct webfile analysis, let me know.

That's great that you can help him.

i

"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in message
...
Dave is right--there is a whole voodoo culture behind these rankings.

Voodoo... Great. I'll call a priest.

Rankings have to do not just w/ keywords, but how/w whom you are linked,
and the content/# pages of your site, etc. In a sense, the site is kind
of graded/evaluated for *quality* by (some)search engines, and, if I've
understood correctly, also *penalized* for rankiing strategies they view
as deceptive!

Agreed! It is becoming increasily difficult to figure out the formula
too... But then again, that's why I'm asking for info.

I used to belong to a web developers forum, and wouldn't you know I forgot
the name/url. But I've been meaning to get back, cuz these people *live
and die* for rankings. Apparently they can get fired or lose accounts if
rankings fall, etc.
Anyway, when I find it again, I'll shoot it to you, I think you'll find it
useful.

I've worked with about a half dozen site "promoters" ranging from the
fly-by-night folks to large firms charging a few thousand dollars. Know
what I leanred? They don't do it as well as our staff here... Why? They
don't know the business I am in. They know how to promote a generic web
site, but ours is so specific that they usually mess things up.

Also, different search engines have different ways of ranking sites. Fwiu,
they try and keep their ranking strategies somewhat secret, as full
knowledge would then give web developers ways to manipulate them. But
there seems to be general knowledge about what's going on, at least in
these forums.

I'd love to lurk in a forum like that just to see what I could learn...

CLIP

A guy I know, who don't throw money away, says his "cost of doing web
business" is about $600/mo, just to take care of stuff like this. He is
more than smart enough to do it himself, but he opts to pay for some kind
of service, etc. I think google also takes $$ directly, for whatever
whatever, which affects rankings.

I've considered farming it out... But I may just hire a part-time guy to do
the work for me. Like I said, the outside firms and people I've dealt with
have not impressed me. Maybe it is because I'm a bit of a perfectionist on
this stuff... Or because our sites already rank high and they can't get us
higher... Not sure.

In that forum I frequented, I believe they spoke highly of listings in
directories as well, esp. for specialty stuff such as yours. Thomas
Register was the biggie, but there are others. Sleuthing them down is
proly an art, as well.

LOL. No comment except to say that they are correct.

Yeah, Joe, we work for *free*, around here!

You should work for food... I know this little Italian restaurant around
the corner that... well... You get the point.

Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
(908) 542-0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com

V8013-R

Joe, your question is perfectly legitimate, but you may find better
luck asking in alt.internet.search-engines. There you have search
engine optimization pros giving free advice, if you ask nicely and
clearly.


I'm optimized out the wazoo in a number of ways.

The issue that you have is an issue of search engine optimization: how
to identify "keywords" of interest to your potential buyers, and how
to make sure that your potential buyers find your site when they look
for these keywords.


Exactly.

2) add a search box to your site to let your visitors search, and see
what they are looking for.

Tell me how to see what they type into that search box...

Then, once you identified possible keywords, you can think about how
to attract people looking for them.

I know how to get them to me if I know the terms, but I don't know the terms
for everyone, just me.

Some searches are easier to be on top of than others. For example, my
site algebra.com was in the top page for search for "****ing bitches"
for a while, because of some archived post titled "****ing
bitches". GO figure.

I'm surprised the porno sites didn't out rank you.


Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
(908) 542-0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com

V8013-R

On Thu, 2 Feb 2006 12:20:36 -0500, Proctologically Violated©®
wrote:
Dave is right--there is a whole voodoo culture behind these rankings.

Rankings have to do not just w/ keywords, but how/w whom you are linked,
and
the content/# pages of your site, etc. In a sense, the site is kind of
graded/evaluated for *quality* by (some)search engines, and, if I've
understood correctly, also *penalized* for rankiing strategies they view
as
deceptive!

Right. That's why it's important that the keywords don't get spammy,
google knows that trick and ranks accordingly.

I've never actually come across a web site that has been blacklisted by
them. They might change the rankings, but they don't actually "shut them
out" do they? I'm currently "overseeing" 13 sites and I'm sure with all the
experimenting that I do that I'd have been blacklisted somewhere along the
line.

Oh yeah. Gotta be on the first page of results, near the top of course.
It's unfair but it's true - who clicks through to the eighth page to
read something? If I get too many hits, I add a search term and re-spin
the search. I'm sure I'm not alone.

Bingo. Agreed.

Also, different search engines have different ways of ranking sites.

Sure, but really, what's the point of optimising for anything other than
google?

Yahoo is useful IMHO. MSN is a total waste of time and I'm not sure there
is a real search engine out there other than those... AltaVista is mostly
ignored and the rest are either small or specialized.

google's adwords program might also be a good fit for Joe's business.
That way you're a sponsored link rather than just another match buried
deep down below.

Works well... But you have to know the right terms. Thus my original post
for those terms. I know what "I" type in when looking for my product, but
what would Mr. or Mrs. Smith type in?

Yeah, Joe, we work for *free*, around here!

Well, for friends & family, I consult for (good) beer. For others,
well, I know this guy who can help you out

Did you see my post about the Italian place around the corner?
--


Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
(908) 542-0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com

V8013-R

1) browse through your web logs and find all searches (references to
search engines) and see what people search for

That's a good point. Joe, do you have access to your webserver logs?
If so, do you know someone who can do some slice & dice analysis of
those logs to get that info (hint-hint - yes, you do)

That tells me what people are using to find me... Not what people are using
when they don't find me... But it also tells me what terms are worth pay
for so I suppose it is a worthwhile effort.
--


Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
(908) 542-0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com

V8013-R

There are also nice web server log analysis tools such as analog. I
use it to display statistics of my own site. It can be found at
www.analog.cx, IIRC.

Are there tools to see what the stats are on someone else's site? That's
what I need. I want to attract people finding my competition when they
should be finding me. After all, I have a superior product, superior
servicer and better prices. I really believe that I do...

No other company out there is going to spend an hour customizing their unit
for an application at the prices I can offer. But... If the customer finds
"drill company X" instead of me, it doesn't matter.

Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
(908) 542-0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com

V8013-R

On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 21:43:58 GMT, Joe AutoDrill wrote:
On Thu, 2 Feb 2006 12:20:36 -0500, Proctologically Violated©®
wrote:
Dave is right--there is a whole voodoo culture behind these rankings.

Right. That's why it's important that the keywords don't get spammy,
google knows that trick and ranks accordingly.

I've never actually come across a web site that has been blacklisted by
them. They might change the rankings, but they don't actually "shut them
out" do they?

I doubt that they'd shut them out, no. But, down half a page is as good
as gone, innit?

I'm currently "overseeing" 13 sites and I'm sure with all the
experimenting that I do that I'd have been blacklisted somewhere along the
line.

Well, if you're adding porn terms to a tools site, probably. If you're
adding tooling terms, probably not. It's the gratuitous keyword
spamming that I'm sure they downgrade on.

Also, different search engines have different ways of ranking sites.

Sure, but really, what's the point of optimising for anything other than
google?

Yahoo is useful IMHO. MSN is a total waste of time and I'm not sure there
is a real search engine out there other than those... AltaVista is mostly
ignored and the rest are either small or specialized.

awstats, and maybe analog, will tell you which search engines people
came to you from and what terms they used.

google's adwords program might also be a good fit for Joe's business.
That way you're a sponsored link rather than just another match buried
deep down below.

Works well... But you have to know the right terms. Thus my original post
for those terms. I know what "I" type in when looking for my product, but
what would Mr. or Mrs. Smith type in?

Yeah, Joe, we work for *free*, around here!

Well, for friends & family, I consult for (good) beer. For others,
well, I know this guy who can help you out

Did you see my post about the Italian place around the corner?

Works for me

I've never actually come across a web site that has been blacklisted by
them. They might change the rankings, but they don't actually "shut them
out" do they?

I doubt that they'd shut them out, no. But, down half a page is as good
as gone, innit?

Depends on whether you are dominating the top half or not.

But... Yes. You are correct.

Well, if you're adding porn terms to a tools site, probably. If you're
adding tooling terms, probably not. It's the gratuitous keyword
spamming that I'm sure they downgrade on.

No porn terms on my site other than the accidental "drill" interpretation,
etc.

Works for me

Hey... If you're ever local, let me know. I'm always ready for a good
meal.
--


Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
(908) 542-0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com

V8013-R

Can you reply to me privately? I have a question to ask you off-board...

Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
(908) 542-0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com

V8013-R


"Ignoramus25402" wrote in message
...
Joe, your question is perfectly legitimate, but you may find better
luck asking in alt.internet.search-engines. There you have search
engine optimization pros giving free advice, if you ask nicely and
clearly.

The issue that you have is an issue of search engine optimization: how
to identify "keywords" of interest to your potential buyers, and how
to make sure that your potential buyers find your site when they look
for these keywords.

The first task is for yourself -- no onw knows your buyers besides
you. You can do a couple of tricks:

1) browse through your web logs and find all searches (references to
search engines) and see what people search for

2) add a search box to your site to let your visitors search, and see
what they are looking for.

These are nothing more than some clues, since you may not get users
who search for what you sell, but who do not get to your site.

Then, once you identified possible keywords, you can think about how
to attract people looking for them.

Again, alt.internet.search-engines would provide a lot of
guidance. Basically, search engines not only look at words on your
site, but also for what other sites that link to you mention when they
describe your site. Some websites are considered by search engines to
be more influential and some less so.

Some searches are easier to be on top of than others. For example, my
site algebra.com was in the top page for search for "****ing bitches"
for a while, because of some archived post titled "****ing
bitches". GO figure.

All in all, to get on top of some keyword searches, you need to get
influential people to link to you using those keywords. Not an easy
task.

There are also easy page optimization techniques that you can easily
read about by doing googlesearches.

There are also good forums on webmasterworld.com and seochat.com and other
places.


i

Ignoramus13782" wrote in message
... I emailed to
, I hope that it will work. Will be
happy to help.

Thank you. Of all days for me to be having e-mail problems, today is the
day... I'll get your message, but probably not until later in the day or
even early next week. My ISP is letting me send e-mail but not allowing me
to receive. Might be a response to that new virus / worm / thing.

Didn't want you to think I was ignoring you...

Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
(908) 542-0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com

V8013-R

To give this discussion a different opinion, I RARELY view the first
few pages of a search, Google or other search engines...too much fluff,
too little substance.

In my experience, the sites trying hard to rank first rarely are the
sites that have the best value for my dollar. I use the same logic when
finding leads for our business with expenditures in the millions.

The true value lies several pages deep in any search.

I also will note that any web site today that does not have a search
feature AND full technical data available ONLINE automatically loses
our business.

TMT