Is there anything that comes in a brush-on or at least spread-on form that
will take spots of oxidization/red rot crud off brass without eating the
brass itself and does most of the work for you, sort the way Tarn-X works on
silver? I'm giving an old trumpet a going over and want to reduce some of
the tedium in resurrecting the sheen of the metal before lacquering it.

Also, what sort of surface preparation is recommended before lacquering?
Please no "take it to a repair shop" answers, the whole point is to be a DIY
project.

Thanks for all shared wisdom.

Bar Keepers Friend

http://www.barkeepersfriend.com/products.htm

"Doc" wrote in message
ink.net...
Is there anything that comes in a brush-on or at least spread-on form that
will take spots of oxidization/red rot crud off brass without eating the
brass itself and does most of the work for you, sort the way Tarn-X works
on
silver? I'm giving an old trumpet a going over and want to reduce some of
the tedium in resurrecting the sheen of the metal before lacquering it.

Also, what sort of surface preparation is recommended before lacquering?
Please no "take it to a repair shop" answers, the whole point is to be a
DIY
project.

Thanks for all shared wisdom.

Doc wrote:

Is there anything that comes in a brush-on or at least spread-on form that
will take spots of oxidization/red rot crud off brass without eating the
brass itself and does most of the work for you, sort the way Tarn-X works on
silver? I'm giving an old trumpet a going over and want to reduce some of
the tedium in resurrecting the sheen of the metal before lacquering it.

Also, what sort of surface preparation is recommended before lacquering?
Please no "take it to a repair shop" answers, the whole point is to be a DIY
project.

Thanks for all shared wisdom.

Sailors have been cleaning brass in the US Navy for many years with vinegar and
salt. It works very well. I also recommend Brasso, which does require a bit of
labor, but it works well too.

However, it has to be really really clean before lacquering, so if you use
something like Brasso then you will need to clean it perhaps with acetone to
remove all residues.

GWE

stay away from tarn-x at all costs. on anything. i would try brasso.

"Grant Erwin" wrote in message
...
Doc wrote:

Is there anything that comes in a brush-on or at least spread-on form
that
will take spots of oxidization/red rot crud off brass without eating the
brass itself and does most of the work for you, sort the way Tarn-X works
on
silver? I'm giving an old trumpet a going over and want to reduce some of
the tedium in resurrecting the sheen of the metal before lacquering it.

Also, what sort of surface preparation is recommended before lacquering?
Please no "take it to a repair shop" answers, the whole point is to be a
DIY
project.

Thanks for all shared wisdom.

Sailors have been cleaning brass in the US Navy for many years with
vinegar and salt. It works very well. I also recommend Brasso, which does
require a bit of labor, but it works well too.

However, it has to be really really clean before lacquering, so if you use
something like Brasso then you will need to clean it perhaps with acetone
to remove all residues.

GWE

"JoeGuy" wrote in message
. ..
stay away from tarn-x at all costs. on anything. i would try brasso.

Tarn-X isn't made for brass, but was looking for something that basically
does the same thing, knocks down most of the oxidation by itself without
having to scrub. Besides the labor factor, there are some pits that are
going to have to be gotten into chemically, hitting them with any kind of a
cloth/polish or wet/dry paper just goes over the top of the pits. Plus, I
really don't want to totally disassemble the horn to get every surface, if I
can avoid it.

"Doc" wrote in message
ink.net...

"JoeGuy" wrote in message
. ..
stay away from tarn-x at all costs. on anything. i would try brasso.

Tarn-X isn't made for brass, but was looking for something that basically
does the same thing, knocks down most of the oxidation by itself without
having to scrub. Besides the labor factor, there are some pits that are
going to have to be gotten into chemically, hitting them with any kind of
a
cloth/polish or wet/dry paper just goes over the top of the pits. Plus, I
really don't want to totally disassemble the horn to get every surface, if
I
can avoid it.


They advertise some kind of soap/detergent/cleaner on TV right now. (saw the
add during the last couple of days) In the ad, they put a dirty penny half
into the goop, and it comes out clean and shiny (no scrubbing) watch for
that ad, and get that goop. I have a horn I need to clean the same way, but
mine is an old antique Conn with engraving on it. An expert told me to be
careful of cleaning it. If I buff it off, (she said) the engraving might
come off with it, and then the horn would be worth much less. So I need to
do the same thing. But I have to first get the old lacquer off, and this
probably means using paint remover or some such real strong stuff......

no, it's not made for brass. but; i sure don't recomend it for silverplate
either. i'm not sure how it works on 100% silver; but- don't try tarn-x on
silverplated instruments. also- it's my experience that any raw brass will
tarnish quickly- no matter how well polished; unless it is laquered. live
and learn; i always say...


"Doc" wrote in message
ink.net...

"JoeGuy" wrote in message
. ..
stay away from tarn-x at all costs. on anything. i would try brasso.

Tarn-X isn't made for brass, but was looking for something that basically
does the same thing, knocks down most of the oxidation by itself without
having to scrub. Besides the labor factor, there are some pits that are
going to have to be gotten into chemically, hitting them with any kind of
a
cloth/polish or wet/dry paper just goes over the top of the pits. Plus, I
really don't want to totally disassemble the horn to get every surface, if
I
can avoid it.

On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 21:55:10 -0500, "JoeGuy"
wrote:

no, it's not made for brass. but; i sure don't recomend it for silverplate
either. i'm not sure how it works on 100% silver; but- don't try tarn-x on
silverplated instruments. also- it's my experience that any raw brass will
tarnish quickly- no matter how well polished; unless it is laquered. live
and learn; i always say...


"Doc" wrote in message
link.net...

"JoeGuy" wrote in message
. ..
stay away from tarn-x at all costs. on anything. i would try brasso.

Tarn-X isn't made for brass, but was looking for something that basically
does the same thing, knocks down most of the oxidation by itself without
having to scrub. Besides the labor factor, there are some pits that are
going to have to be gotten into chemically, hitting them with any kind of
a
cloth/polish or wet/dry paper just goes over the top of the pits. Plus, I
really don't want to totally disassemble the horn to get every surface, if
I
can avoid it.


Try buttermilk??

Sailors have been cleaning brass in the US Navy for many years with
vinegar and
salt. It works very well. I also recommend Brasso, which does require a
bit of
labor, but it works well too.

To the list:

I was a sailor, never used vinegar and salt though. First cutter I was
on everyone used Brasso. Second one was a Nevr Dull ship. I like the
Nevr Dull a little better. It is a cotton waste impregnated with
corrosion eating gook and leaves an oily film that protects the brass a
bit from salt. Both Brasso and Nevr Dull will erode brass, especially
fine details like engraving.

I use Nevr Dull on my horns, but not often. Mainly I use a polishing
cloth from the instrument shop.

good luck

jn

"Grant Erwin" wrote in message
...

Sailors have been cleaning brass in the US Navy for many years with
vinegar and
salt. It works very well. I also recommend Brasso, which does require a
bit of
labor, but it works well too.

Is the salt strictly there as an abrasive or does it have some effect
chemically?

On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 07:37:00 GMT, "Doc"
wrote:

Is the salt strictly there as an abrasive or does it have some effect
chemically?

Both. It's quite a powerful cleaner, but you have to make sure it's
well neutralised afterwards or you'll see copper chlorides appearing
(pale green, sometimes looks a bit like mouldy fruit).

_Never_ use salt and vinegar on cuprous alloys that are either even
slightly porous (most castings) or valuable bronzes. The risk then is
that you set off "bronze disease", a self-perpetuating form of chloride
corrosion. Once this starts it's a real pig to stop it (and the
chemistry to do so is a little hard to find and toxic).


Never trust the military's advice on cleaning things. They have
unlimited pools of labour and many approved techniques are there as a
deliberate make-work policy. Lots of these techniques work fine, but
only if they're re-done daily. Most civilians want something that gets
clean, then stays that way.

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 07:37:00 GMT, "Doc"
wrote:

Is the salt strictly there as an abrasive or does it have some effect
chemically?

Both. It's quite a powerful cleaner, but you have to make sure it's
well neutralised afterwards or you'll see copper chlorides appearing
(pale green, sometimes looks a bit like mouldy fruit).

_Never_ use salt and vinegar on cuprous alloys that are either even
slightly porous (most castings) or valuable bronzes. The risk then is
that you set off "bronze disease", a self-perpetuating form of chloride
corrosion. Once this starts it's a real pig to stop it (and the
chemistry to do so is a little hard to find and toxic).

But even tap water contains some chlorine, so I doubt if using salt and
vinegar on a horn would cause any harm, provided you wash it off well when
you are done. As a matter of fact, it goes without saying that no matter
what you use, you should wash the horn well when you are finished.

i think cleaning a belt buckle is much different than an antique horn. IMHO;
i would use brasso; but, not until i am ready to have the horn relaquered;
as it will tarnish quickly. this is what seperates the two schools of
thought. while some of the guys like raw brass; i feel , it is very
difficult to maintain. if you are trying to restore an antique horn- don't
polish it up until you are ready to have it restored. or els- be prepared to
polish it every week...


"William Graham" wrote in message
...

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 07:37:00 GMT, "Doc"
wrote:

Is the salt strictly there as an abrasive or does it have some effect
chemically?

Both. It's quite a powerful cleaner, but you have to make sure it's
well neutralised afterwards or you'll see copper chlorides appearing
(pale green, sometimes looks a bit like mouldy fruit).

_Never_ use salt and vinegar on cuprous alloys that are either even
slightly porous (most castings) or valuable bronzes. The risk then is
that you set off "bronze disease", a self-perpetuating form of chloride
corrosion. Once this starts it's a real pig to stop it (and the
chemistry to do so is a little hard to find and toxic).

But even tap water contains some chlorine, so I doubt if using salt and
vinegar on a horn would cause any harm, provided you wash it off well when
you are done. As a matter of fact, it goes without saying that no matter
what you use, you should wash the horn well when you are finished.

On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 09:56:13 -0800, "William Graham"
wrote:

But even tap water contains some chlorine, so I doubt if using salt and
vinegar on a horn would cause any harm,

Chlorine, not chlorides. Straight out of the tap my (city) tap water
tastes like bleach, but there isn't much ionic chloride content in it.
Tap water generally can't have much chloride in it because that would
render it undrinkable at even a low level - and it doesn't even have
the antibacterial effect that chlorinating it does.

On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 21:03:07 GMT, "Doc"
wrote:

Is there anything that comes in a brush-on or at least spread-on form that
will take spots of oxidization/red rot crud off brass without eating the
brass itself

No - Pink spots on brass are the brass dezincifying to leave copper
behind. You have to shift these mechanically with something abrasive, so
as to cut through the dezincified layer. This can leave sizable "ulcers"
behind. I don't know of any way to replace the zinc chemically.

As it's presumably a trumpet, I'd be very wary of going overboard with
abrasives. Better pinkish spots thatn divots. A light job with a fine
Garryflex, 3M abrasive pad, or even Brasso is about the limit.

Don't use salt and vinegar. It's a powerful cleaner, but the corrosion
problems afterwards aren't worth the trouble,

Andy Dingley wrote:

As it's presumably a trumpet, I'd be very wary of going overboard with
abrasives. Better pinkish spots thatn divots. A light job with a fine
Garryflex, 3M abrasive pad, or even Brasso is about the limit.

Ouch on the abrasive pad. Unless you plan on making a matte finish
imitation of one of Dave Monette's instruments. (Great businessman -
instead of laborious buffing, just rough everything up with a scotch
brite pad and change 10 times as much for the results).

That major reason for taking the instrument for professional chemical
cleaning, degreasing, and laquering is not that you can't get your
hands on the chemicals, but that it's silly to do so and then have to
dispose of total-immersion quanitites for a single use... in the shop
it sits there and gets used over and over and over again.

I got a really cool polish rag from UMI. Not a major fan of UMI but they
made a pretty nice chemically treated cloth. I use it on my horn and
ANYTHING silver around the house. Works great and it's very easy to use.

Jon Trimble


wrote in message
oups.com...
Andy Dingley wrote:

As it's presumably a trumpet, I'd be very wary of going overboard with
abrasives. Better pinkish spots thatn divots. A light job with a fine
Garryflex, 3M abrasive pad, or even Brasso is about the limit.

Ouch on the abrasive pad. Unless you plan on making a matte finish
imitation of one of Dave Monette's instruments. (Great businessman -
instead of laborious buffing, just rough everything up with a scotch
brite pad and change 10 times as much for the results).

That major reason for taking the instrument for professional chemical
cleaning, degreasing, and laquering is not that you can't get your
hands on the chemicals, but that it's silly to do so and then have to
dispose of total-immersion quanitites for a single use... in the shop
it sits there and gets used over and over and over again.

I cleaned a HUGE chandelier one time that was all brass and was as
nasty as could be...I started with brasso, then tried vinegar, lemon
juice, salt, yes it all worked but it was amazingly slow........I got
desperate. I grabbed a can of Easy Off oven cleaner and tried it in a
spot..It foamed fizzled and when I sprayed it off with water it was
clean and relatively shiney......Hmm, off to the grocery store and
bought 2 or 3 cans of Jiff Oven cleaner......sprayed that fixture and
left it set for a bit, s[rayed it off, and it was as clean as could
be......with just a slight hint of a shine. Brasso then was a
relatively quick and easy option to restore luster without a lot of
hand rubbing......
--
\\\|///
( @ @ )
-----------oOOo(_)oOOo---------------


oooO
---------( )----Oooo----------------
\ ( ( )
\_) ) /
(_/
The original frugal ponder! Koi-ahoi mates....

"Doc" wrote in message
ink.net...
Is there anything that comes in a brush-on or at least spread-on form that
will take spots of oxidization/red rot crud off brass without eating the
brass itself and does most of the work for you, sort the way Tarn-X works
on
silver? I'm giving an old trumpet a going over and want to reduce some of
the tedium in resurrecting the sheen of the metal before lacquering it.

Also, what sort of surface preparation is recommended before lacquering?
Please no "take it to a repair shop" answers, the whole point is to be a
DIY
project.

Thanks for all shared wisdom.

Ok, if the red rot is on the leadpipe you might as well replace it.. just
the leadpipe that is. Most often you will find the inside is eaten away
before the outside. Red rot is caused by your Brass turning back into
Copper. Saying that, you can see it can't be polished away. All you are
doing is polishing the copper not removing it, most of the time it runs all
the way through. Live with it if it isn't leaking yet and put a patch on it
if it is.
If you are DETERMINED to polish this, try brasso and wash the instrument
with alcohol before lacquering. BTW.. get a Ferrees catalogue and they will
sell you a really nice clear lacquer, they are on the web.

LLB (horn builder)

In article . net,
"Doc" wrote:

Is there anything that comes in a brush-on or at least spread-on form that
will take spots of oxidization/red rot crud off brass without eating the
brass itself and does most of the work for you, sort the way Tarn-X works on
silver? I'm giving an old trumpet a going over and want to reduce some of
the tedium in resurrecting the sheen of the metal before lacquering it.

Are you quite sure you want to lacquer it? I know a number of trumpet
players who have de-lacquered their horns (the better off ones then
silver-plate, but the rest claim that simply getting the lacquer off
makes for better sound, while the silver is an appearance thing only).

I looked into having a trombone stripped and plated, and it was about as
much as a new trombone...and probably makes less difference than with a
trumpet (lower pitches).

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

I wonder how a large vibratory tumbler with ground corncob & brasso would
work. Of course you'd need access to such a machine. Use for deburring
parts.

Or,, a muslin wheel & tripoli compound, on the exterior surfaces a big wheel
would cover alot of ground , and a dremel in the tight spots.

Tony

"Doc" wrote in message
ink.net...
Is there anything that comes in a brush-on or at least spread-on form that
will take spots of oxidization/red rot crud off brass without eating the
brass itself and does most of the work for you, sort the way Tarn-X works
on
silver? I'm giving an old trumpet a going over and want to reduce some of
the tedium in resurrecting the sheen of the metal before lacquering it.

Also, what sort of surface preparation is recommended before lacquering?
Please no "take it to a repair shop" answers, the whole point is to be a
DIY
project.

Thanks for all shared wisdom.

"Tony" wrote in message
...
I wonder how a large vibratory tumbler with ground corncob & brasso would
work. Of course you'd need access to such a machine. Use for deburring
parts.

Or,, a muslin wheel & tripoli compound, on the exterior surfaces a big
wheel
would cover alot of ground , and a dremel in the tight spots.

The problem is getting into the little pitted spots. Even a dremel isn't
going to do the job. I need something that will do the cleaning chemically.

Doc wrote:

Or,, a muslin wheel & tripoli compound, on the exterior surfaces a big
wheel
would cover alot of ground , and a dremel in the tight spots.

The problem is getting into the little pitted spots. Even a dremel isn't
going to do the job. I need something that will do the cleaning chemically.

You can't clean away the little pitted spots because it isn't
contamination, but missing zinc that is the problem.

For just general work in close quarters around the braces, you "rag"
with cotton tape, or for small detals, flat shoelaces.

A novice trying to buff a trumpet is likely to have it caught by the
wheel and flung across the room and smashed... there's just too many
things that can snag.

wrote in message
ps.com...
Doc wrote:

Or,, a muslin wheel & tripoli compound, on the exterior surfaces a big
wheel
would cover alot of ground , and a dremel in the tight spots.

The problem is getting into the little pitted spots. Even a dremel isn't
going to do the job. I need something that will do the cleaning
chemically.

You can't clean away the little pitted spots because it isn't
contamination, but missing zinc that is the problem.

For just general work in close quarters around the braces, you "rag"
with cotton tape, or for small detals, flat shoelaces.

A novice trying to buff a trumpet is likely to have it caught by the
wheel and flung across the room and smashed... there's just too many
things that can snag.

Yes....The way to prevent this is to use a very low power tool. One tool
that I like for this purpose is a draftsman's automatic eraser. These are
getting pretty scarce, because most draftsmen today use computers, and no
longer draw on paper taped to a drafting board. But if you find one of these
things, pick it up, because it can be a very useful tool. It had three
"fingers" that wrapped around a long eraser tube that might be 5 or 6 inches
long. As the eraser was used up, you could spread the fingers and feed it
more eraser. When you turned it on, it spun the eraser around at fairly low
RPM, so you could press it against your pencil drawing and erase a part of
it. You can make it's fingers grip a pad of cloth, or felt, or steel wool,
and use it to polish or burnish, or grind away at something valuable such as
jewelry or wood, or a trumpet without worrying about it being flung across
the room and destroyed, and yet, it would do the job a lot easier than pure
elbow grease......

William Graham wrote:

A novice trying to buff a trumpet is likely to have it caught by the
wheel and flung across the room and smashed... there's just too many
things that can snag.

Yes....The way to prevent this is to use a very low power tool. One tool
that I like for this purpose is a draftsman's automatic eraser.

and yet, it would do the job a lot easier than pure
elbow grease......

I have one of those, and disagree. Ragging (sawing motion with a long
strip of cloth) properly performed two handed as a whole body action
with the instrument mounted on a good bell stand is going to be a lot
more effective than that wimpy little motor. Put it this way - you can
generate a fair fraction of a horsepower, but that little eraser motor
will stall out by the time you apply any meaningfull buffing pressure.
Brass instrument manufacture predates buffing wheels by a few hundred
years, and while some cleanup of the unbent bell could be and some
times was done with that part on a lathe, ragging is a time honored
process.

Liberty Polish. Does exactly what your asking for - works just like
Tarn-X for brass. It's non-abrasive with a very slight ammonia smell.
It's an absolutely must-have if you own/make anything of uncoated brass.
I occasionally turn solid brass candle holders as gifts. I leave them
uncoated, but include a small glass jar of the stuff in the box.

Here's where I get it:
http://www.rejuvenation.com/relatedproducts/polish.html
(no affiliation, it's just close to my house, the guy at the counter
suggested it, and it worked the way he said)

- Bruce

"Doc" wrote in
ink.net:

Is there anything that comes in a brush-on or at least spread-on form
that will take spots of oxidization/red rot crud off brass without
eating the brass itself and does most of the work for you, sort the way
Tarn-X works on silver? I'm giving an old trumpet a going over and want
to reduce some of the tedium in resurrecting the sheen of the metal
before lacquering it.

Also, what sort of surface preparation is recommended before lacquering?
Please no "take it to a repair shop" answers, the whole point is to be a
DIY project.

Thanks for all shared wisdom.

Liberty is good stuff. I bought some at a better price at
http://www.hescoinc.com/. (search "Liberty" to find it)
LL


On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 11:01:44 -0600, Bruce Spainhower
wrote:

Liberty Polish. Does exactly what your asking for - works just like
Tarn-X for brass. It's non-abrasive with a very slight ammonia smell.
It's an absolutely must-have if you own/make anything of uncoated brass.
I occasionally turn solid brass candle holders as gifts. I leave them
uncoated, but include a small glass jar of the stuff in the box.

Here's where I get it:
http://www.rejuvenation.com/relatedproducts/polish.html
(no affiliation, it's just close to my house, the guy at the counter
suggested it, and it worked the way he said)

- Bruce

"Doc" wrote in
link.net:

Is there anything that comes in a brush-on or at least spread-on form
that will take spots of oxidization/red rot crud off brass without
eating the brass itself and does most of the work for you, sort the way
Tarn-X works on silver? I'm giving an old trumpet a going over and want
to reduce some of the tedium in resurrecting the sheen of the metal
before lacquering it.

Also, what sort of surface preparation is recommended before lacquering?
Please no "take it to a repair shop" answers, the whole point is to be a
DIY project.

Thanks for all shared wisdom.

hand held drill
cotton wheel
can of paint polishing compound
LIGHT pressure on teh drill.
If the polishing compound doesn't get it, try Buffing compound or rubbing
compound.
They are more abrasive.
Clean off very well and dry it off, the spray a LIGHT coat of clear lacquer
over it.

Test in an inconspicuous place first.

Mark (power tools are your friend) Dunning

"Doc" wrote in message
ink.net...
Is there anything that comes in a brush-on or at least spread-on form that
will take spots of oxidization/red rot crud off brass without eating the
brass itself and does most of the work for you, sort the way Tarn-X works
on
silver? I'm giving an old trumpet a going over and want to reduce some of
the tedium in resurrecting the sheen of the metal before lacquering it.

Also, what sort of surface preparation is recommended before lacquering?
Please no "take it to a repair shop" answers, the whole point is to be a
DIY
project.

Thanks for all shared wisdom.






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