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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
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Posted to alt.rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.music.makers.trumpet
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Is there anything that comes in a brush-on or at least spread-on form that
will take spots of oxidization/red rot crud off brass without eating the brass itself and does most of the work for you, sort the way Tarn-X works on silver? I'm giving an old trumpet a going over and want to reduce some of the tedium in resurrecting the sheen of the metal before lacquering it. Also, what sort of surface preparation is recommended before lacquering? Please no "take it to a repair shop" answers, the whole point is to be a DIY project. Thanks for all shared wisdom. |
#2
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Bar Keepers Friend
http://www.barkeepersfriend.com/products.htm "Doc" wrote in message ink.net... Is there anything that comes in a brush-on or at least spread-on form that will take spots of oxidization/red rot crud off brass without eating the brass itself and does most of the work for you, sort the way Tarn-X works on silver? I'm giving an old trumpet a going over and want to reduce some of the tedium in resurrecting the sheen of the metal before lacquering it. Also, what sort of surface preparation is recommended before lacquering? Please no "take it to a repair shop" answers, the whole point is to be a DIY project. Thanks for all shared wisdom. |
#3
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Posted to alt.rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.music.makers.trumpet
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Doc wrote:
Is there anything that comes in a brush-on or at least spread-on form that will take spots of oxidization/red rot crud off brass without eating the brass itself and does most of the work for you, sort the way Tarn-X works on silver? I'm giving an old trumpet a going over and want to reduce some of the tedium in resurrecting the sheen of the metal before lacquering it. Also, what sort of surface preparation is recommended before lacquering? Please no "take it to a repair shop" answers, the whole point is to be a DIY project. Thanks for all shared wisdom. Sailors have been cleaning brass in the US Navy for many years with vinegar and salt. It works very well. I also recommend Brasso, which does require a bit of labor, but it works well too. However, it has to be really really clean before lacquering, so if you use something like Brasso then you will need to clean it perhaps with acetone to remove all residues. GWE |
#4
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Posted to alt.rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.music.makers.trumpet
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stay away from tarn-x at all costs. on anything. i would try brasso.
"Grant Erwin" wrote in message ... Doc wrote: Is there anything that comes in a brush-on or at least spread-on form that will take spots of oxidization/red rot crud off brass without eating the brass itself and does most of the work for you, sort the way Tarn-X works on silver? I'm giving an old trumpet a going over and want to reduce some of the tedium in resurrecting the sheen of the metal before lacquering it. Also, what sort of surface preparation is recommended before lacquering? Please no "take it to a repair shop" answers, the whole point is to be a DIY project. Thanks for all shared wisdom. Sailors have been cleaning brass in the US Navy for many years with vinegar and salt. It works very well. I also recommend Brasso, which does require a bit of labor, but it works well too. However, it has to be really really clean before lacquering, so if you use something like Brasso then you will need to clean it perhaps with acetone to remove all residues. GWE |
#5
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On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 21:03:07 GMT, "Doc"
wrote: Is there anything that comes in a brush-on or at least spread-on form that will take spots of oxidization/red rot crud off brass without eating the brass itself No - Pink spots on brass are the brass dezincifying to leave copper behind. You have to shift these mechanically with something abrasive, so as to cut through the dezincified layer. This can leave sizable "ulcers" behind. I don't know of any way to replace the zinc chemically. As it's presumably a trumpet, I'd be very wary of going overboard with abrasives. Better pinkish spots thatn divots. A light job with a fine Garryflex, 3M abrasive pad, or even Brasso is about the limit. Don't use salt and vinegar. It's a powerful cleaner, but the corrosion problems afterwards aren't worth the trouble, |
#6
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Posted to alt.rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.music.makers.trumpet
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![]() "JoeGuy" wrote in message . .. stay away from tarn-x at all costs. on anything. i would try brasso. Tarn-X isn't made for brass, but was looking for something that basically does the same thing, knocks down most of the oxidation by itself without having to scrub. Besides the labor factor, there are some pits that are going to have to be gotten into chemically, hitting them with any kind of a cloth/polish or wet/dry paper just goes over the top of the pits. Plus, I really don't want to totally disassemble the horn to get every surface, if I can avoid it. |
#7
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Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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I cleaned a HUGE chandelier one time that was all brass and was as
nasty as could be...I started with brasso, then tried vinegar, lemon juice, salt, yes it all worked but it was amazingly slow........I got desperate. I grabbed a can of Easy Off oven cleaner and tried it in a spot..It foamed fizzled and when I sprayed it off with water it was clean and relatively shiney......Hmm, off to the grocery store and bought 2 or 3 cans of Jiff Oven cleaner......sprayed that fixture and left it set for a bit, s[rayed it off, and it was as clean as could be......with just a slight hint of a shine. Brasso then was a relatively quick and easy option to restore luster without a lot of hand rubbing...... -- \\\|/// ( @ @ ) -----------oOOo(_)oOOo--------------- oooO ---------( )----Oooo---------------- \ ( ( ) \_) ) / (_/ The original frugal ponder! Koi-ahoi mates.... |
#8
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Posted to alt.rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.music.makers.trumpet
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![]() "Doc" wrote in message ink.net... "JoeGuy" wrote in message . .. stay away from tarn-x at all costs. on anything. i would try brasso. Tarn-X isn't made for brass, but was looking for something that basically does the same thing, knocks down most of the oxidation by itself without having to scrub. Besides the labor factor, there are some pits that are going to have to be gotten into chemically, hitting them with any kind of a cloth/polish or wet/dry paper just goes over the top of the pits. Plus, I really don't want to totally disassemble the horn to get every surface, if I can avoid it. They advertise some kind of soap/detergent/cleaner on TV right now. (saw the add during the last couple of days) In the ad, they put a dirty penny half into the goop, and it comes out clean and shiny (no scrubbing) watch for that ad, and get that goop. I have a horn I need to clean the same way, but mine is an old antique Conn with engraving on it. An expert told me to be careful of cleaning it. If I buff it off, (she said) the engraving might come off with it, and then the horn would be worth much less. So I need to do the same thing. But I have to first get the old lacquer off, and this probably means using paint remover or some such real strong stuff...... |
#9
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Posted to alt.rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.music.makers.trumpet
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![]() "Doc" wrote in message ink.net... Is there anything that comes in a brush-on or at least spread-on form that will take spots of oxidization/red rot crud off brass without eating the brass itself and does most of the work for you, sort the way Tarn-X works on silver? I'm giving an old trumpet a going over and want to reduce some of the tedium in resurrecting the sheen of the metal before lacquering it. Also, what sort of surface preparation is recommended before lacquering? Please no "take it to a repair shop" answers, the whole point is to be a DIY project. Thanks for all shared wisdom. Ok, if the red rot is on the leadpipe you might as well replace it.. just the leadpipe that is. Most often you will find the inside is eaten away before the outside. Red rot is caused by your Brass turning back into Copper. Saying that, you can see it can't be polished away. All you are doing is polishing the copper not removing it, most of the time it runs all the way through. Live with it if it isn't leaking yet and put a patch on it if it is. If you are DETERMINED to polish this, try brasso and wash the instrument with alcohol before lacquering. BTW.. get a Ferrees catalogue and they will sell you a really nice clear lacquer, they are on the web. LLB (horn builder) |
#10
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Posted to alt.rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.music.makers.trumpet
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In article . net,
"Doc" wrote: Is there anything that comes in a brush-on or at least spread-on form that will take spots of oxidization/red rot crud off brass without eating the brass itself and does most of the work for you, sort the way Tarn-X works on silver? I'm giving an old trumpet a going over and want to reduce some of the tedium in resurrecting the sheen of the metal before lacquering it. Are you quite sure you want to lacquer it? I know a number of trumpet players who have de-lacquered their horns (the better off ones then silver-plate, but the rest claim that simply getting the lacquer off makes for better sound, while the silver is an appearance thing only). I looked into having a trombone stripped and plated, and it was about as much as a new trombone...and probably makes less difference than with a trumpet (lower pitches). -- Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by |
#11
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I wonder how a large vibratory tumbler with ground corncob & brasso would
work. Of course you'd need access to such a machine. Use for deburring parts. Or,, a muslin wheel & tripoli compound, on the exterior surfaces a big wheel would cover alot of ground , and a dremel in the tight spots. Tony "Doc" wrote in message ink.net... Is there anything that comes in a brush-on or at least spread-on form that will take spots of oxidization/red rot crud off brass without eating the brass itself and does most of the work for you, sort the way Tarn-X works on silver? I'm giving an old trumpet a going over and want to reduce some of the tedium in resurrecting the sheen of the metal before lacquering it. Also, what sort of surface preparation is recommended before lacquering? Please no "take it to a repair shop" answers, the whole point is to be a DIY project. Thanks for all shared wisdom. |
#12
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Sailors have been cleaning brass in the US Navy for many years with
vinegar and salt. It works very well. I also recommend Brasso, which does require a bit of labor, but it works well too. To the list: I was a sailor, never used vinegar and salt though. First cutter I was on everyone used Brasso. Second one was a Nevr Dull ship. I like the Nevr Dull a little better. It is a cotton waste impregnated with corrosion eating gook and leaves an oily film that protects the brass a bit from salt. Both Brasso and Nevr Dull will erode brass, especially fine details like engraving. I use Nevr Dull on my horns, but not often. Mainly I use a polishing cloth from the instrument shop. good luck jn |
#13
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Posted to alt.rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.music.makers.trumpet
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![]() "Grant Erwin" wrote in message ... Sailors have been cleaning brass in the US Navy for many years with vinegar and salt. It works very well. I also recommend Brasso, which does require a bit of labor, but it works well too. Is the salt strictly there as an abrasive or does it have some effect chemically? |
#14
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Posted to alt.rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.music.makers.trumpet
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![]() "Tony" wrote in message ... I wonder how a large vibratory tumbler with ground corncob & brasso would work. Of course you'd need access to such a machine. Use for deburring parts. Or,, a muslin wheel & tripoli compound, on the exterior surfaces a big wheel would cover alot of ground , and a dremel in the tight spots. The problem is getting into the little pitted spots. Even a dremel isn't going to do the job. I need something that will do the cleaning chemically. |
#15
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On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 07:37:00 GMT, "Doc"
wrote: Is the salt strictly there as an abrasive or does it have some effect chemically? Both. It's quite a powerful cleaner, but you have to make sure it's well neutralised afterwards or you'll see copper chlorides appearing (pale green, sometimes looks a bit like mouldy fruit). _Never_ use salt and vinegar on cuprous alloys that are either even slightly porous (most castings) or valuable bronzes. The risk then is that you set off "bronze disease", a self-perpetuating form of chloride corrosion. Once this starts it's a real pig to stop it (and the chemistry to do so is a little hard to find and toxic). Never trust the military's advice on cleaning things. They have unlimited pools of labour and many approved techniques are there as a deliberate make-work policy. Lots of these techniques work fine, but only if they're re-done daily. Most civilians want something that gets clean, then stays that way. |
#16
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Posted to alt.rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.music.makers.trumpet
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![]() "Andy Dingley" wrote in message ... On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 07:37:00 GMT, "Doc" wrote: Is the salt strictly there as an abrasive or does it have some effect chemically? Both. It's quite a powerful cleaner, but you have to make sure it's well neutralised afterwards or you'll see copper chlorides appearing (pale green, sometimes looks a bit like mouldy fruit). _Never_ use salt and vinegar on cuprous alloys that are either even slightly porous (most castings) or valuable bronzes. The risk then is that you set off "bronze disease", a self-perpetuating form of chloride corrosion. Once this starts it's a real pig to stop it (and the chemistry to do so is a little hard to find and toxic). But even tap water contains some chlorine, so I doubt if using salt and vinegar on a horn would cause any harm, provided you wash it off well when you are done. As a matter of fact, it goes without saying that no matter what you use, you should wash the horn well when you are finished. |
#17
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Andy Dingley wrote:
As it's presumably a trumpet, I'd be very wary of going overboard with abrasives. Better pinkish spots thatn divots. A light job with a fine Garryflex, 3M abrasive pad, or even Brasso is about the limit. Ouch on the abrasive pad. Unless you plan on making a matte finish imitation of one of Dave Monette's instruments. (Great businessman - instead of laborious buffing, just rough everything up with a scotch brite pad and change 10 times as much for the results). That major reason for taking the instrument for professional chemical cleaning, degreasing, and laquering is not that you can't get your hands on the chemicals, but that it's silly to do so and then have to dispose of total-immersion quanitites for a single use... in the shop it sits there and gets used over and over and over again. |
#18
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I got a really cool polish rag from UMI. Not a major fan of UMI but they
made a pretty nice chemically treated cloth. I use it on my horn and ANYTHING silver around the house. Works great and it's very easy to use. Jon Trimble wrote in message oups.com... Andy Dingley wrote: As it's presumably a trumpet, I'd be very wary of going overboard with abrasives. Better pinkish spots thatn divots. A light job with a fine Garryflex, 3M abrasive pad, or even Brasso is about the limit. Ouch on the abrasive pad. Unless you plan on making a matte finish imitation of one of Dave Monette's instruments. (Great businessman - instead of laborious buffing, just rough everything up with a scotch brite pad and change 10 times as much for the results). That major reason for taking the instrument for professional chemical cleaning, degreasing, and laquering is not that you can't get your hands on the chemicals, but that it's silly to do so and then have to dispose of total-immersion quanitites for a single use... in the shop it sits there and gets used over and over and over again. |
#19
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Posted to alt.rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.music.makers.trumpet
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Doc wrote:
Or,, a muslin wheel & tripoli compound, on the exterior surfaces a big wheel would cover alot of ground , and a dremel in the tight spots. The problem is getting into the little pitted spots. Even a dremel isn't going to do the job. I need something that will do the cleaning chemically. You can't clean away the little pitted spots because it isn't contamination, but missing zinc that is the problem. For just general work in close quarters around the braces, you "rag" with cotton tape, or for small detals, flat shoelaces. A novice trying to buff a trumpet is likely to have it caught by the wheel and flung across the room and smashed... there's just too many things that can snag. |
#20
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Posted to alt.rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.music.makers.trumpet
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![]() wrote in message ps.com... Doc wrote: Or,, a muslin wheel & tripoli compound, on the exterior surfaces a big wheel would cover alot of ground , and a dremel in the tight spots. The problem is getting into the little pitted spots. Even a dremel isn't going to do the job. I need something that will do the cleaning chemically. You can't clean away the little pitted spots because it isn't contamination, but missing zinc that is the problem. For just general work in close quarters around the braces, you "rag" with cotton tape, or for small detals, flat shoelaces. A novice trying to buff a trumpet is likely to have it caught by the wheel and flung across the room and smashed... there's just too many things that can snag. Yes....The way to prevent this is to use a very low power tool. One tool that I like for this purpose is a draftsman's automatic eraser. These are getting pretty scarce, because most draftsmen today use computers, and no longer draw on paper taped to a drafting board. But if you find one of these things, pick it up, because it can be a very useful tool. It had three "fingers" that wrapped around a long eraser tube that might be 5 or 6 inches long. As the eraser was used up, you could spread the fingers and feed it more eraser. When you turned it on, it spun the eraser around at fairly low RPM, so you could press it against your pencil drawing and erase a part of it. You can make it's fingers grip a pad of cloth, or felt, or steel wool, and use it to polish or burnish, or grind away at something valuable such as jewelry or wood, or a trumpet without worrying about it being flung across the room and destroyed, and yet, it would do the job a lot easier than pure elbow grease...... |
#21
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no, it's not made for brass. but; i sure don't recomend it for silverplate
either. i'm not sure how it works on 100% silver; but- don't try tarn-x on silverplated instruments. also- it's my experience that any raw brass will tarnish quickly- no matter how well polished; unless it is laquered. live and learn; i always say... "Doc" wrote in message ink.net... "JoeGuy" wrote in message . .. stay away from tarn-x at all costs. on anything. i would try brasso. Tarn-X isn't made for brass, but was looking for something that basically does the same thing, knocks down most of the oxidation by itself without having to scrub. Besides the labor factor, there are some pits that are going to have to be gotten into chemically, hitting them with any kind of a cloth/polish or wet/dry paper just goes over the top of the pits. Plus, I really don't want to totally disassemble the horn to get every surface, if I can avoid it. |
#22
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Posted to alt.rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.music.makers.trumpet
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![]() i think cleaning a belt buckle is much different than an antique horn. IMHO; i would use brasso; but, not until i am ready to have the horn relaquered; as it will tarnish quickly. this is what seperates the two schools of thought. while some of the guys like raw brass; i feel , it is very difficult to maintain. if you are trying to restore an antique horn- don't polish it up until you are ready to have it restored. or els- be prepared to polish it every week... "William Graham" wrote in message ... "Andy Dingley" wrote in message ... On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 07:37:00 GMT, "Doc" wrote: Is the salt strictly there as an abrasive or does it have some effect chemically? Both. It's quite a powerful cleaner, but you have to make sure it's well neutralised afterwards or you'll see copper chlorides appearing (pale green, sometimes looks a bit like mouldy fruit). _Never_ use salt and vinegar on cuprous alloys that are either even slightly porous (most castings) or valuable bronzes. The risk then is that you set off "bronze disease", a self-perpetuating form of chloride corrosion. Once this starts it's a real pig to stop it (and the chemistry to do so is a little hard to find and toxic). But even tap water contains some chlorine, so I doubt if using salt and vinegar on a horn would cause any harm, provided you wash it off well when you are done. As a matter of fact, it goes without saying that no matter what you use, you should wash the horn well when you are finished. |
#23
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On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 21:55:10 -0500, "JoeGuy"
wrote: no, it's not made for brass. but; i sure don't recomend it for silverplate either. i'm not sure how it works on 100% silver; but- don't try tarn-x on silverplated instruments. also- it's my experience that any raw brass will tarnish quickly- no matter how well polished; unless it is laquered. live and learn; i always say... "Doc" wrote in message link.net... "JoeGuy" wrote in message . .. stay away from tarn-x at all costs. on anything. i would try brasso. Tarn-X isn't made for brass, but was looking for something that basically does the same thing, knocks down most of the oxidation by itself without having to scrub. Besides the labor factor, there are some pits that are going to have to be gotten into chemically, hitting them with any kind of a cloth/polish or wet/dry paper just goes over the top of the pits. Plus, I really don't want to totally disassemble the horn to get every surface, if I can avoid it. Try buttermilk?? |
#24
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William Graham wrote:
A novice trying to buff a trumpet is likely to have it caught by the wheel and flung across the room and smashed... there's just too many things that can snag. Yes....The way to prevent this is to use a very low power tool. One tool that I like for this purpose is a draftsman's automatic eraser. and yet, it would do the job a lot easier than pure elbow grease...... I have one of those, and disagree. Ragging (sawing motion with a long strip of cloth) properly performed two handed as a whole body action with the instrument mounted on a good bell stand is going to be a lot more effective than that wimpy little motor. Put it this way - you can generate a fair fraction of a horsepower, but that little eraser motor will stall out by the time you apply any meaningfull buffing pressure. Brass instrument manufacture predates buffing wheels by a few hundred years, and while some cleanup of the unbent bell could be and some times was done with that part on a lathe, ragging is a time honored process. |
#25
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![]() wrote in message oups.com... William Graham wrote: A novice trying to buff a trumpet is likely to have it caught by the wheel and flung across the room and smashed... there's just too many things that can snag. Yes....The way to prevent this is to use a very low power tool. One tool that I like for this purpose is a draftsman's automatic eraser. and yet, it would do the job a lot easier than pure elbow grease...... I have one of those, and disagree. Ragging (sawing motion with a long strip of cloth) properly performed two handed as a whole body action with the instrument mounted on a good bell stand is going to be a lot more effective than that wimpy little motor. Put it this way - you can generate a fair fraction of a horsepower, but that little eraser motor will stall out by the time you apply any meaningfull buffing pressure. Brass instrument manufacture predates buffing wheels by a few hundred years, and while some cleanup of the unbent bell could be and some times was done with that part on a lathe, ragging is a time honored process. Yes. - I do both. I use the rotary eraser tool when I am working near a port, or inside the valve casing. I also pull felt cloth's soaked in alcohol through the tubing......Anything you can get away with works for me, and I'm always looking for something new..... |
#26
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On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 21:50:33 -0800, "William Graham"
wrote: wrote in message roups.com... William Graham wrote: A novice trying to buff a trumpet is likely to have it caught by the wheel and flung across the room and smashed... there's just too many things that can snag. Yes....The way to prevent this is to use a very low power tool. One tool that I like for this purpose is a draftsman's automatic eraser. and yet, it would do the job a lot easier than pure elbow grease...... I have one of those, and disagree. Ragging (sawing motion with a long strip of cloth) properly performed two handed as a whole body action with the instrument mounted on a good bell stand is going to be a lot more effective than that wimpy little motor. Put it this way - you can generate a fair fraction of a horsepower, but that little eraser motor will stall out by the time you apply any meaningfull buffing pressure. Brass instrument manufacture predates buffing wheels by a few hundred years, and while some cleanup of the unbent bell could be and some times was done with that part on a lathe, ragging is a time honored process. Yes. - I do both. I use the rotary eraser tool when I am working near a port, or inside the valve casing. I also pull felt cloth's soaked in alcohol through the tubing......Anything you can get away with works for me, and I'm always looking for something new..... So now I have a use for those repairable units donated from the "Technical Data Centre" (read: Drafting office) some fifteen years ago! Gerry :-)} London, Canada |
#27
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Liberty Polish. Does exactly what your asking for - works just like
Tarn-X for brass. It's non-abrasive with a very slight ammonia smell. It's an absolutely must-have if you own/make anything of uncoated brass. I occasionally turn solid brass candle holders as gifts. I leave them uncoated, but include a small glass jar of the stuff in the box. Here's where I get it: http://www.rejuvenation.com/relatedproducts/polish.html (no affiliation, it's just close to my house, the guy at the counter suggested it, and it worked the way he said) - Bruce "Doc" wrote in ink.net: Is there anything that comes in a brush-on or at least spread-on form that will take spots of oxidization/red rot crud off brass without eating the brass itself and does most of the work for you, sort the way Tarn-X works on silver? I'm giving an old trumpet a going over and want to reduce some of the tedium in resurrecting the sheen of the metal before lacquering it. Also, what sort of surface preparation is recommended before lacquering? Please no "take it to a repair shop" answers, the whole point is to be a DIY project. Thanks for all shared wisdom. |
#28
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hand held drill
cotton wheel can of paint polishing compound LIGHT pressure on teh drill. If the polishing compound doesn't get it, try Buffing compound or rubbing compound. They are more abrasive. Clean off very well and dry it off, the spray a LIGHT coat of clear lacquer over it. Test in an inconspicuous place first. Mark (power tools are your friend) Dunning "Doc" wrote in message ink.net... Is there anything that comes in a brush-on or at least spread-on form that will take spots of oxidization/red rot crud off brass without eating the brass itself and does most of the work for you, sort the way Tarn-X works on silver? I'm giving an old trumpet a going over and want to reduce some of the tedium in resurrecting the sheen of the metal before lacquering it. Also, what sort of surface preparation is recommended before lacquering? Please no "take it to a repair shop" answers, the whole point is to be a DIY project. Thanks for all shared wisdom. ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
#29
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Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Liberty is good stuff. I bought some at a better price at
http://www.hescoinc.com/. (search "Liberty" to find it) LL On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 11:01:44 -0600, Bruce Spainhower wrote: Liberty Polish. Does exactly what your asking for - works just like Tarn-X for brass. It's non-abrasive with a very slight ammonia smell. It's an absolutely must-have if you own/make anything of uncoated brass. I occasionally turn solid brass candle holders as gifts. I leave them uncoated, but include a small glass jar of the stuff in the box. Here's where I get it: http://www.rejuvenation.com/relatedproducts/polish.html (no affiliation, it's just close to my house, the guy at the counter suggested it, and it worked the way he said) - Bruce "Doc" wrote in link.net: Is there anything that comes in a brush-on or at least spread-on form that will take spots of oxidization/red rot crud off brass without eating the brass itself and does most of the work for you, sort the way Tarn-X works on silver? I'm giving an old trumpet a going over and want to reduce some of the tedium in resurrecting the sheen of the metal before lacquering it. Also, what sort of surface preparation is recommended before lacquering? Please no "take it to a repair shop" answers, the whole point is to be a DIY project. Thanks for all shared wisdom. |
#30
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Posted to alt.rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.music.makers.trumpet
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On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 09:56:13 -0800, "William Graham"
wrote: But even tap water contains some chlorine, so I doubt if using salt and vinegar on a horn would cause any harm, Chlorine, not chlorides. Straight out of the tap my (city) tap water tastes like bleach, but there isn't much ionic chloride content in it. Tap water generally can't have much chloride in it because that would render it undrinkable at even a low level - and it doesn't even have the antibacterial effect that chlorinating it does. |
#31
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Posted to alt.rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.music.makers.trumpet
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![]() "Andy Dingley" wrote in message ... On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 09:56:13 -0800, "William Graham" wrote: But even tap water contains some chlorine, so I doubt if using salt and vinegar on a horn would cause any harm, Chlorine, not chlorides. Straight out of the tap my (city) tap water tastes like bleach, but there isn't much ionic chloride content in it. Tap water generally can't have much chloride in it because that would render it undrinkable at even a low level - and it doesn't even have the antibacterial effect that chlorinating it does. Well, I don't really know how they, "chlorinate" water. Do they bubble chlorine gas through it, or do they use some salt containing chlorine? I know that when you chlorinate a swimming pool, you add some powder that you buy in a pool store. - I assumed it was some salt that dissolved in the water, and that chlorine ions would be the result. When you wash your horn with soapy water, you sure are adding ions to the water.....Sodium ions, and probably hydroxide ions, too. but the secret is in washing your horn off with copious amounts of tap water when you are done. Then, it really doesn't matter what was in the water when you cleaned it.....It all comes off in the wash anyway. They say your saliva is acidic, and that washing your horn in soapy water is good for getting the acidic saliva off of it......In general, I doubt that anything you clean it with is going to hurt it, as long as you wash it off afterward. I wonder what they use when they, "chem clean" a horn? do they give it an acid bath? And why isn't whatever chemical they use available for the home mechanic to use? I should be able to chem clean my horn at home in a plastic tub, shouldn't I? |
#32
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Posted to alt.rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.music.makers.trumpet
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Large gas tanks of Chlorine. It is easy to add that way.
Done that way at Swimming pools. Adding it via salts only causes water hardening issues. The salt would have to be broken down and then what happens. Adding HCL gives you bubbling H2 gas. CL gas is the best route. Martin Eastburn @ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net NRA LOH & Endowment Member NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder William Graham wrote: "Andy Dingley" wrote in message ... On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 09:56:13 -0800, "William Graham" wrote: But even tap water contains some chlorine, so I doubt if using salt and vinegar on a horn would cause any harm, Chlorine, not chlorides. Straight out of the tap my (city) tap water tastes like bleach, but there isn't much ionic chloride content in it. Tap water generally can't have much chloride in it because that would render it undrinkable at even a low level - and it doesn't even have the antibacterial effect that chlorinating it does. Well, I don't really know how they, "chlorinate" water. Do they bubble chlorine gas through it, or do they use some salt containing chlorine? I know that when you chlorinate a swimming pool, you add some powder that you buy in a pool store. - I assumed it was some salt that dissolved in the water, and that chlorine ions would be the result. When you wash your horn with soapy water, you sure are adding ions to the water.....Sodium ions, and probably hydroxide ions, too. but the secret is in washing your horn off with copious amounts of tap water when you are done. Then, it really doesn't matter what was in the water when you cleaned it.....It all comes off in the wash anyway. They say your saliva is acidic, and that washing your horn in soapy water is good for getting the acidic saliva off of it......In general, I doubt that anything you clean it with is going to hurt it, as long as you wash it off afterward. I wonder what they use when they, "chem clean" a horn? do they give it an acid bath? And why isn't whatever chemical they use available for the home mechanic to use? I should be able to chem clean my horn at home in a plastic tub, shouldn't I? ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
#33
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Posted to alt.rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.crafts.metalworking
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Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
Large gas tanks of Chlorine. It is easy to add that way. Done that way at Swimming pools. Adding it via salts only causes water hardening issues. The salt would have to be broken down and then what happens. Adding HCL gives you bubbling H2 gas. CL gas is the best route. Martin Eastburn OT: Pool chlorine crystals are typically sodium hypochlorite, a convenient carrier of chlorine. Actual chlorine gas is extremely corrosive and irritating so is not something to tinker with. As for drinking water, what is probably tasted as "chlorine" might actually be chloroform - the chlorine ions in water gradually transform into chloroform over time. It can take weeks for the water to get to your house from the water treatment plant. If your city gives you a regular water quality report, see if it lists a chloroform percentage. Mine doesn't. It likely varies by distance from the treatment facility anyways. Chloroform is nasty stuff too, but chlorine is necessary to prevent other even worse stuff from growing instead. Also water that is left sitting out will absorb carbon dioxide from the air which also alters the taste and chemical properties. Bottom line is, if your water tastes bad and/or you are concerned about the quality, install a good filter or use a distillation purifier. ![]() |
#34
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Posted to alt.rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.music.makers.trumpet
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It is GAS - been that way for many years. Done that way in swimming pools (city types/university...)
Home pools put in a salt and naturally Martin Eastburn @ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net NRA LOH & Endowment Member NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder William Graham wrote: "Andy Dingley" wrote in message ... On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 09:56:13 -0800, "William Graham" wrote: But even tap water contains some chlorine, so I doubt if using salt and vinegar on a horn would cause any harm, Chlorine, not chlorides. Straight out of the tap my (city) tap water tastes like bleach, but there isn't much ionic chloride content in it. Tap water generally can't have much chloride in it because that would render it undrinkable at even a low level - and it doesn't even have the antibacterial effect that chlorinating it does. Well, I don't really know how they, "chlorinate" water. Do they bubble chlorine gas through it, or do they use some salt containing chlorine? I know that when you chlorinate a swimming pool, you add some powder that you buy in a pool store. - I assumed it was some salt that dissolved in the water, and that chlorine ions would be the result. When you wash your horn with soapy water, you sure are adding ions to the water.....Sodium ions, and probably hydroxide ions, too. but the secret is in washing your horn off with copious amounts of tap water when you are done. Then, it really doesn't matter what was in the water when you cleaned it.....It all comes off in the wash anyway. They say your saliva is acidic, and that washing your horn in soapy water is good for getting the acidic saliva off of it......In general, I doubt that anything you clean it with is going to hurt it, as long as you wash it off afterward. I wonder what they use when they, "chem clean" a horn? do they give it an acid bath? And why isn't whatever chemical they use available for the home mechanic to use? I should be able to chem clean my horn at home in a plastic tub, shouldn't I? ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
#35
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Posted to alt.rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.music.makers.trumpet
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Due to safety and security concerns, many municipal systems are now
converting to a solid form of chlorine. Martin H. Eastburn wrote: It is GAS - been that way for many years. Done that way in swimming pools (city types/university...) Home pools put in a salt and naturally Martin Eastburn @ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net NRA LOH & Endowment Member NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder William Graham wrote: "Andy Dingley" wrote in message ... On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 09:56:13 -0800, "William Graham" wrote: But even tap water contains some chlorine, so I doubt if using salt and vinegar on a horn would cause any harm, Chlorine, not chlorides. Straight out of the tap my (city) tap water tastes like bleach, but there isn't much ionic chloride content in it. Tap water generally can't have much chloride in it because that would render it undrinkable at even a low level - and it doesn't even have the antibacterial effect that chlorinating it does. Well, I don't really know how they, "chlorinate" water. Do they bubble chlorine gas through it, or do they use some salt containing chlorine? I know that when you chlorinate a swimming pool, you add some powder that you buy in a pool store. - I assumed it was some salt that dissolved in the water, and that chlorine ions would be the result. When you wash your horn with soapy water, you sure are adding ions to the water.....Sodium ions, and probably hydroxide ions, too. but the secret is in washing your horn off with copious amounts of tap water when you are done. Then, it really doesn't matter what was in the water when you cleaned it.....It all comes off in the wash anyway. They say your saliva is acidic, and that washing your horn in soapy water is good for getting the acidic saliva off of it......In general, I doubt that anything you clean it with is going to hurt it, as long as you wash it off afterward. I wonder what they use when they, "chem clean" a horn? do they give it an acid bath? And why isn't whatever chemical they use available for the home mechanic to use? I should be able to chem clean my horn at home in a plastic tub, shouldn't I? ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
#36
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Posted to alt.rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.music.makers.trumpet
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Aremick wrote:
Due to safety and security concerns, many municipal systems are now converting to a solid form of chlorine. At any reasonable temperatures and pressures Chlorine is a GAS. (period) Now they may be using some COMPOUND of Chlorine (that means it is bound up with some other element /s) BUT it is NOT a solid form of Chlorine. pickey pickey. ...lew... |
#37
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Posted to alt.rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.music.makers.trumpet
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![]() "Lew Hartswick" wrote in message nk.net... Aremick wrote: Due to safety and security concerns, many municipal systems are now converting to a solid form of chlorine. At any reasonable temperatures and pressures Chlorine is a GAS. (period) Now they may be using some COMPOUND of Chlorine (that means it is bound up with some other element /s) BUT it is NOT a solid form of Chlorine. pickey pickey. ...lew... The question is, what is Chlorine gas dissolved in water? Is it ionized, like it would be if you added salt to water. (salt is sodium chloride, so it has chlorine atoms in it) Or, does the dissolved chlorine gas remain in gaseous form, so upon heating the water, it would bubble back out? And what do they do when they add chlorine to drinking water to kill the bacteria at the water purification plant? Do they put some chlorine salt that ionizes in the water, or do they just dissolve chlorine gas in it, so that it dissipates out of the water after some period of time? |
#38
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Yes, definitely a solid form.
When gas is used, it is diffused into the water. Much of it does diffuse out over time, which is why you want to let your tap water set before you put your goldfish into it (and yes, boiling does drive it out faster). Chloramine is what is usually used these days - it is the solid compound. Chloramine leaves the water much slower, which is why you buy chloramine removers from petco these days to do the job for you (probably the term "neutralizers" is more accurate). Less chloramine is used because it remains in the water better at the levels required for disinfectant. Minimal trumpet content: chloramine is probably less hard on your horns because of the lower concentration. But it probably depends on a lot of things, such as temperature, distance form the plant, etc.) And I would guess that neither is in high enough concentration to do any real harm (or we couldn't drink it)... Gaseous chlorine has been phased out because of hazards - both accidental and sabotage. It is toxic and flows into low spaces almost like water (it is heavier than air) and dissipates slowly. It also provides better overall water quality. A quote: "New Drinking Water Disinfectant for Mountain View Customers The San Francisco Public Utilities Commission (SFPUC) will convert its drinking water disinfectant from chlorine to chloramine in February of 2004. The purpose of the conversion is to meet stricter regulations and ensure high quality drinking water for water customers. The conversion will involve most water users in Mountain View. Disinfectants are used in drinking water to prevent the spread of germs and disease. Chloramine is a chemical compound composed of chlorine and ammonia. Chloramine will lower the level of disinfectant by-products and meet new, and more stringent State and Federal drinking water regulations. Most customers will not notice the change. Although people and animals can safely drink chloraminated water, water for special uses such as kidney dialysis, pond water for fish and amphibian pets, and water used by some business and industrial customers must have chloramine removed or neutralized. More information about preparing for the chloramine conversion is available by calling the Mountain View conversion information line at (650) 903-6543." (I do know a little about many things, just wish I know how to play the trumpet better. Oh yeah, Practice! That's it) William Graham wrote: "Lew Hartswick" wrote in message nk.net... Aremick wrote: Due to safety and security concerns, many municipal systems are now converting to a solid form of chlorine. At any reasonable temperatures and pressures Chlorine is a GAS. (period) Now they may be using some COMPOUND of Chlorine (that means it is bound up with some other element /s) BUT it is NOT a solid form of Chlorine. pickey pickey. ...lew... The question is, what is Chlorine gas dissolved in water? Is it ionized, like it would be if you added salt to water. (salt is sodium chloride, so it has chlorine atoms in it) Or, does the dissolved chlorine gas remain in gaseous form, so upon heating the water, it would bubble back out? And what do they do when they add chlorine to drinking water to kill the bacteria at the water purification plant? Do they put some chlorine salt that ionizes in the water, or do they just dissolve chlorine gas in it, so that it dissipates out of the water after some period of time? |
#39
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Posted to alt.rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.music.makers.trumpet
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Chlorine gas is WWI Mustard Gas. Very nasty stuff indeed.
Shipping and storing gas is more expensive (hasmat charges) (I get Hasmat on OX!). Theft of a tank can be real problems in the hands of evil people. Having a Chlorate of some sort - is almost like a bag of fertilizer. Easy to stack and isn't rapid acting as in an attack. Martin Martin Eastburn @ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net NRA LOH & Endowment Member NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder Lew Hartswick wrote: Aremick wrote: Due to safety and security concerns, many municipal systems are now converting to a solid form of chlorine. At any reasonable temperatures and pressures Chlorine is a GAS. (period) Now they may be using some COMPOUND of Chlorine (that means it is bound up with some other element /s) BUT it is NOT a solid form of Chlorine. pickey pickey. ...lew... ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
#40
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Chlorine gas forms with Water and makes HCL and O2 - Chlorine reacts with other
chemicals present. It takes some pool calcium and makes Ca2Cl or some form. And naturally dissolved gas. It is this gas we smell when we turn on the tap or get a whiff at the pool... Martin Martin Eastburn @ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net NRA LOH & Endowment Member NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder William Graham wrote: "Lew Hartswick" wrote in message nk.net... Aremick wrote: Due to safety and security concerns, many municipal systems are now converting to a solid form of chlorine. At any reasonable temperatures and pressures Chlorine is a GAS. (period) Now they may be using some COMPOUND of Chlorine (that means it is bound up with some other element /s) BUT it is NOT a solid form of Chlorine. pickey pickey. ...lew... The question is, what is Chlorine gas dissolved in water? Is it ionized, like it would be if you added salt to water. (salt is sodium chloride, so it has chlorine atoms in it) Or, does the dissolved chlorine gas remain in gaseous form, so upon heating the water, it would bubble back out? And what do they do when they add chlorine to drinking water to kill the bacteria at the water purification plant? Do they put some chlorine salt that ionizes in the water, or do they just dissolve chlorine gas in it, so that it dissipates out of the water after some period of time? ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
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