I am a newbie to soldering. I have a pencil tip popular mechanics
soldering iron. I cant get the wire hot enough to melt my solder. Am I
doing something wrong/ Do I need another soldering iron? WHat would you
recomment for the thicker wire such as the starter wires?

I am soldering wires for a remote starter I am trying to add to my 96
chevy truck

Thanks!

"stryped" wrote in message
oups.com...
I am a newbie to soldering. I have a pencil tip popular mechanics
soldering iron. I cant get the wire hot enough to melt my solder. Am I
doing something wrong/ Do I need another soldering iron? WHat would you
recomment for the thicker wire such as the starter wires?

I am soldering wires for a remote starter I am trying to add to my 96
chevy truck

Thanks!

A pencil tip soldering iron is barely adequate for 18 gauge wire. For
starter wires the correct crimps and eyelets are the way to go. If you can't
find the right cables pre-made, try a battery distributor or truck-body
shop, they can crimp the proper ends on heavier wire for you.
I just bought a ground strap for my skid steer, last season I was screwing
around with replacing terminals in the snow, which I finally realized was a
waste of time.

On 26 Dec 2005 19:35:36 -0800, the renowned "stryped"
wrote:

I am a newbie to soldering. I have a pencil tip popular mechanics
soldering iron. I cant get the wire hot enough to melt my solder. Am I
doing something wrong/ Do I need another soldering iron? WHat would you
recomment for the thicker wire such as the starter wires?

I am soldering wires for a remote starter I am trying to add to my 96
chevy truck

Thanks!

How many watts is it? What do you mean "starter wire"- you're just
working with AWG16 or whatever control wires, right?

BTW, I hope you're using electronic solder (preferably 63/37 SnPb
alloy with an activated rosin flux.

If you're trying to use 50/50 plumber's solder, it's not going to work
very well, and the acid flux they use destroys electrical connections.
If so, clean everything off really well and start again with the right
solder.

I think the commercial installers usually use crimp joints only. You
can get overpriced crappily made crimp joiners and lugs at Rat shack,
as I did last year at this time when I wanted to install a new CD/MP3
player in my car. ;-)


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

On 26 Dec 2005 19:35:36 -0800, "stryped" wrote:

I am a newbie to soldering. I have a pencil tip popular mechanics
soldering iron. I cant get the wire hot enough to melt my solder. Am I
doing something wrong/ Do I need another soldering iron? WHat would you
recomment for the thicker wire such as the starter wires?

I am soldering wires for a remote starter I am trying to add to my 96
chevy truck

Thanks!

Don't solder underhood connections- either the solder joint will fail,
or the insulation (tape) will.
Use good quality crimp connectors- your local parts jobber will have
them- and don't cheap out on the crimping tool. I've repaired a few
electrical nightmares because the installer used cheap connectors or
his crimping tool did not fully pinch the connector.

NAPA Belden connectors aren't bad and they used to sell a good
crimping tool.

-Carl

On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 04:20:22 GMT, Carl Byrns
wrote:

On 26 Dec 2005 19:35:36 -0800, "stryped" wrote:

I am a newbie to soldering. I have a pencil tip popular mechanics
soldering iron. I cant get the wire hot enough to melt my solder. Am I
doing something wrong/ Do I need another soldering iron? WHat would you
recomment for the thicker wire such as the starter wires?

I am soldering wires for a remote starter I am trying to add to my 96
chevy truck

Thanks!

Don't solder underhood connections- either the solder joint will fail,
or the insulation (tape) will.
Use good quality crimp connectors- your local parts jobber will have
them- and don't cheap out on the crimping tool. I've repaired a few
electrical nightmares because the installer used cheap connectors or
his crimping tool did not fully pinch the connector.

NAPA Belden connectors aren't bad and they used to sell a good
crimping tool.

-Carl
And if you MUST solder, make sure you have a hot heavy iron to do the
job QUICKLY. You do not want to heat the wire "upstream" of the joint
, wicking solder into the cable, because vibration will then cause the
wire to fracture. Any soldered terminal must be supported - at the
very least a sleave of heat-shrink tubing extending half an inch or so
past the joint.
I often crimp, then solder the end of the cable into the terminal end
(not the cable end of the terminal) with a good hot iron and resin
core solder. Done properly, no solder wicks past the crimp and the
insulation does not get heated excessively.

For battery/starter cables I like a good, solid hex crimp - or at
minimum a good solid staked connection - but have been known to solder
on occaision. Again, a hot heavy iron (or a torch) is required to get
the joint hot enough before the heat runs up the cable.

On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 04:20:22 GMT, Carl Byrns
wrote:

On 26 Dec 2005 19:35:36 -0800, "stryped" wrote:

I am a newbie to soldering. I have a pencil tip popular mechanics
soldering iron. I cant get the wire hot enough to melt my solder. Am I
doing something wrong/ Do I need another soldering iron? WHat would you
recomment for the thicker wire such as the starter wires?

I am soldering wires for a remote starter I am trying to add to my 96
chevy truck

Thanks!

Don't solder underhood connections- either the solder joint will fail,
or the insulation (tape) will.
Use good quality crimp connectors- your local parts jobber will have
them- and don't cheap out on the crimping tool. I've repaired a few
electrical nightmares because the installer used cheap connectors or
his crimping tool did not fully pinch the connector.

NAPA Belden connectors aren't bad and they used to sell a good
crimping tool.

-Carl

Cark - may I respectfully disagree - don't solder if you don't know
how, that seems OK, but "don't solder underhood connections" is not
correct - most cars from the teens to now have soldered underhood
connections somewhere, though with the environmental problems of lead
you are seeing less solder in the very newest cars. There is nothing
wrong with a properly done solder splice covered with heat shrink, I
have never had one fail. And, yes, you can make inproper crimp
connections, I've seen plenty of them - in fact it's easier to make a
bad crimp connection than a bad solder connection because it's much
harder to inspect a crimp.
Bill

www.wbnoble.com

to contact me, do not reply to this message,
instead correct this address and use it

will iam_ b_ No ble at msn daught com

Cark - may I respectfully disagree - don't solder if you don't know
how, that seems OK, but "don't solder underhood connections" is not
correct - most cars from the teens to now have soldered underhood
connections somewhere, though with the environmental problems of lead
you are seeing less solder in the very newest cars. There is nothing
wrong with a properly done solder splice covered with heat shrink, I
have never had one fail.

Most people don't know how to solder and insulate wires for an extreme
environment such as the underhood area of a car. Soldering -like
welding- is a skill that has to be learned, whereas crimping is a
no-brainer.
Clare has the right of it and I also solder terminal-end crimp
connectors (especially those in high heat or vibration areas). I never
solder butt splices.
Heat shrink tubing is good stuff, but it can't correct a poor solder
joint- I've seen stray strands sticking out of shrink tubing- that
will cause all sorts of flaky failures.

And, yes, you can make improper crimp
connections, I've seen plenty of them - in fact it's easier to make a
bad crimp connection than a bad solder connection because it's much
harder to inspect a crimp.
Bill

I disagree- a good crimp connection can be tested by simply tugging on
it- if it's mechanically strong, it'll be OK electrically. A soldered
pair of wires can hide all kinds of problems and yet look good.

The OP is attempting to solder-connect the wires from a remote-start
kit into the vehicle wiring harness- undoubtedly tapping into critical
circuits. He is attempting to do this using a little pencil iron,
which is most definitely the wrong tool for the job. I believe his
chance for success is much better with crimps.

-Carl

stryped wrote:

I am a newbie to soldering.

We all know, stryped.


I have a pencil tip popular mechanics soldering iron. I cant get the wire
hot enough to melt my solder. Am I doing something wrong/ Do I need
another soldering iron? WHat would you recomment for the thicker wire such
as the starter wires?

Are you sure that you are holding the iron on the right side?


I am soldering wires for a remote starter I am trying to add to my 96
chevy truck

What scale is it?


Nick
--
Motor Modelle // Engine Models
http://www.motor-manufaktur.de
DIY-DRO - YADRO - Eigenbau-Digitalanzeige

On 26 Dec 2005 19:35:36 -0800, "stryped" wrote:

I am a newbie to soldering. I have a pencil tip popular mechanics
soldering iron. I cant get the wire hot enough to melt my solder. Am I
doing something wrong/ Do I need another soldering iron? WHat would you
recomment for the thicker wire such as the starter wires?

I am soldering wires for a remote starter I am trying to add to my 96
chevy truck

Thanks!

a pencil iron for starter wires? Aint going to happen.

Get a nice big Weller 250 watt gun, remove the loop tip, hold the two
prongs against the wire joint and pull the trigger all the way back.

Apply solder when ready.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

Also, your soldering iron isn't big enough for the job. It is intended
for light electronics work. It takes more wattage, or a propane torch
to get battery cables hot enough.
Bugs

Carl Byrns wrote:

Cark - may I respectfully disagree - don't solder if you don't know
how, that seems OK, but "don't solder underhood connections" is not
correct - most cars from the teens to now have soldered underhood
connections somewhere, though with the environmental problems of lead
you are seeing less solder in the very newest cars. There is nothing
wrong with a properly done solder splice covered with heat shrink, I
have never had one fail.

Most people don't know how to solder and insulate wires for an extreme
environment such as the underhood area of a car. Soldering -like
welding- is a skill that has to be learned, whereas crimping is a
no-brainer.

Crimping is *not* a no-brainer. I have seen many many bad crimp
connections. Successful crimping requires the brains to use a quality
crimping tool, adjust it properly, prep the wires properly, insert the
wires properly and finally inspect the resulting connection properly.

Clare has the right of it and I also solder terminal-end crimp
connectors (especially those in high heat or vibration areas). I never
solder butt splices.

The big issue under hood is really moisture, and corrosive moisture at
that. Whether the connection is crimped, soldered or crimped and
soldered, it needs to be environmentally sealed to protect it from
corrosion.

Heat shrink tubing is good stuff, but it can't correct a poor solder
joint- I've seen stray strands sticking out of shrink tubing- that
will cause all sorts of flaky failures.

For under hood use, the version of heat shrink with the meltable sealer
liner is good stuff.


And, yes, you can make improper crimp
connections, I've seen plenty of them - in fact it's easier to make a
bad crimp connection than a bad solder connection because it's much
harder to inspect a crimp.
Bill

I disagree- a good crimp connection can be tested by simply tugging on
it- if it's mechanically strong, it'll be OK electrically. A soldered
pair of wires can hide all kinds of problems and yet look good.

Bill is correct, just because you can test a crimp connection to be
mechanically strong does not insure that it is electrically good or will
be reliable. If the wires were not prepped properly you can get a nice
mechanically strong crimp over the wires insulation and have a very poor
electrical connection that can quickly become intermittent.

A soldered connection can be quite readily inspected *if* you know what
you are looking for. A good soldered connection should have a relatively
shiny surface, have no sharp strands of wire sticking out, show an even
"wetting" flow on the wires at the periphery of the solder and show
minimal wicking of the solder past the immediate connection area and
little or no melting of the wires insulation.


The OP is attempting to solder-connect the wires from a remote-start
kit into the vehicle wiring harness- undoubtedly tapping into critical
circuits. He is attempting to do this using a little pencil iron,
which is most definitely the wrong tool for the job. I believe his
chance for success is much better with crimps.

-Carl

Two more issues with your last comments.

First is that nearly all crimp type connectors are not taps. Tapping
with crimp type connectors will generally require cutting the existing
wire and having multiple wires in a single crimp opening. Both of these
conditions can produce problems, though certainly less than those
hideous IDC type tap connectors.

The second issue is your comment about the pencil iron which is
misleading. It does seem that the OP is trying to use an under powered
pencil iron which will not work well for the application, however this
is not true of all pencil irons. A quality high wattage, temperature
controlled pencil iron such as one of the Weller units will have more
than enough capacity for soldering the 18-12 gauge wires likely to be
encountered in this application.

Pete C.

I am "taping" into the starter wires under the dash at the key. (Not
crimping two wires together.) I think it is 16 or 14 guage wire.
ATP* wrote:
"stryped" wrote in message
oups.com...
I am a newbie to soldering. I have a pencil tip popular mechanics
soldering iron. I cant get the wire hot enough to melt my solder. Am I
doing something wrong/ Do I need another soldering iron? WHat would you
recomment for the thicker wire such as the starter wires?

I am soldering wires for a remote starter I am trying to add to my 96
chevy truck

Thanks!

A pencil tip soldering iron is barely adequate for 18 gauge wire. For
starter wires the correct crimps and eyelets are the way to go. If you can't
find the right cables pre-made, try a battery distributor or truck-body
shop, they can crimp the proper ends on heavier wire for you.
I just bought a ground strap for my skid steer, last season I was screwing
around with replacing terminals in the snow, which I finally realized was a
waste of time.

Bugs wrote:

It takes more wattage, or a propane torch
to get battery cables hot enough.

That's the right tip for stryped!
"Solder the cable under the dash-board with a propane torch." ;-)))


Nick
--
Motor Modelle // Engine Models
http://www.motor-manufaktur.de
DIY-DRO - YADRO - Eigenbau-Digitalanzeige

On 27 Dec 2005 05:29:46 -0800, the renowned "stryped"
wrote:

I am "taping" into the starter wires under the dash at the key. (Not
crimping two wires together.) I think it is 16 or 14 guage wire.
ATP* wrote:

If you get the insulation displacement crimp doodad that allows you to
"tap" into the wires, you won't need to either solder or "tape" the
joint.

Have a look at the photos he
http://www.installer.com/parts/

See the 'T' taps, the crimp-on wire caps, and the usual insulated
spade connectors. Note that you want to have 'hot' wires on insulated
connectors if you go with pluggable connectors so that a loose wire
doesn't short to ground and blow a fuse or circuit breaker.

BTW, I don't have any knowledge of this particular supplier.



Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

"stryped" wrote in message
oups.com...
I am a newbie to soldering. I have a pencil tip popular mechanics
soldering iron. I cant get the wire hot enough to melt my solder. Am I
doing something wrong/ Do I need another soldering iron? WHat would you
recomment for the thicker wire such as the starter wires?

I am soldering wires for a remote starter I am trying to add to my 96
chevy truck

Thanks!


Try keeping the tip of your soldering iron coated with fresh solder. This
helps transfer the heat to the wires.

"Spehro Pefhany" wrote in message
...
On 27 Dec 2005 05:29:46 -0800, the renowned "stryped"
wrote:

I am "taping" into the starter wires under the dash at the key.
(Not
crimping two wires together.) I think it is 16 or 14 guage wire.
ATP* wrote:

If you get the insulation displacement crimp doodad that allows you
to
"tap" into the wires, you won't need to either solder or "tape" the
joint.

Have a look at the photos he
http://www.installer.com/parts/

See the 'T' taps, the crimp-on wire caps, and the usual insulated
spade connectors. Note that you want to have 'hot' wires on
insulated
connectors if you go with pluggable connectors so that a loose wire
doesn't short to ground and blow a fuse or circuit breaker.

BTW, I don't have any knowledge of this particular supplier.


Many manufacturers of remote starters (and the people who install
them) specifically warn against using insulation displacement
connectors. The suggested method for a T tap is to cut the insulation
away , separate the wire strand in the middle, insert the second wire,
wrap around the wire being tapped and then itself, and tape then tie
wrap.

I guess some installers do solder, I suspect the majority don't.

On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 13:16:01 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

Carl Byrns wrote:

Bill is correct, just because you can test a crimp connection to be
mechanically strong does not insure that it is electrically good or will
be reliable. If the wires were not prepped properly you can get a nice
mechanically strong crimp over the wires insulation and have a very poor
electrical connection that can quickly become intermittent.

No, you can't. The common PFE insulation is too slippery for a crimp
connector to grip- a good, strong tug and the wire will slip out.

A soldered connection can be quite readily inspected *if* you know what
you are looking for.

A skill that takes time to develop and has to be learned by example.
Soldering is a skill- I took a half semester course in it (patterned
after the US Army course- great stuff) and it's easy to make OK solder
joints, but tougher to make really good ones.

Two more issues with your last comments.

First is that nearly all crimp type connectors are not taps. Tapping
with crimp type connectors will generally require cutting the existing
wire and having multiple wires in a single crimp opening. Both of these
conditions can produce problems, though certainly less than those
hideous IDC type tap connectors.

The second issue is your comment about the pencil iron which is
misleading. It does seem that the OP is trying to use an under powered
pencil iron which will not work well for the application, however this
is not true of all pencil irons.

See, this is why I left RCM- too many posters who don't read things
thoroughly before responding.
Clare and I have both earned our living repairing cars- I have (and
I'm certain Clare has) made thousands of crimp connections- I've worn
out at least ten crimpers- and each of those crimps was critical. Too
many failures and its good-bye employment. I never had one fail after
it left the shop (had a few fail the tug test- that's why I did it).

My comments on the soldering iron stands- it is too small for the job.
Without sounding like a smartass, judging by his tool choice the OP
doesn't know a lot about soldering the heavier gauge wires used in
automotive service. *His* chance for success is much better with
crimps- he probably lacks the skill/experience to successfully solder
and QC such connections.

Have you looked under the dashboard of a 1996 Chevy pickup? We have a
similar model at work and it's a real rats nest- not an ideal
soldering environment if only because the chances for damaging other
parts of the harness with the hot iron.

-Carl

Carl Byrns wrote:

On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 13:16:01 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

Carl Byrns wrote:

Bill is correct, just because you can test a crimp connection to be
mechanically strong does not insure that it is electrically good or will
be reliable. If the wires were not prepped properly you can get a nice
mechanically strong crimp over the wires insulation and have a very poor
electrical connection that can quickly become intermittent.

No, you can't. The common PFE insulation is too slippery for a crimp
connector to grip- a good, strong tug and the wire will slip out.

There are other insulation types that are quite soft which a crimp
connector will readily grip.


A soldered connection can be quite readily inspected *if* you know what
you are looking for.

A skill that takes time to develop and has to be learned by example.
Soldering is a skill- I took a half semester course in it (patterned
after the US Army course- great stuff) and it's easy to make OK solder
joints, but tougher to make really good ones.

Indeed, I didn't say that it didn't. I did say and still do say that
good crimp connections are not a no-brainer either.


Two more issues with your last comments.

First is that nearly all crimp type connectors are not taps. Tapping
with crimp type connectors will generally require cutting the existing
wire and having multiple wires in a single crimp opening. Both of these
conditions can produce problems, though certainly less than those
hideous IDC type tap connectors.

The second issue is your comment about the pencil iron which is
misleading. It does seem that the OP is trying to use an under powered
pencil iron which will not work well for the application, however this
is not true of all pencil irons.

See, this is why I left RCM- too many posters who don't read things
thoroughly before responding.
Clare and I have both earned our living repairing cars- I have (and
I'm certain Clare has) made thousands of crimp connections- I've worn
out at least ten crimpers- and each of those crimps was critical. Too
many failures and its good-bye employment. I never had one fail after
it left the shop (had a few fail the tug test- that's why I did it).

How does that address the issues of cutting the wire to be "tapped" or
the need to have more than one wire in a single crimp opening or an
additional connector? I've not seen any three way crimp connectors other
than one that consists of three ring terminals riveted together. Unless
you order a box of those obscure connectors you either have a barrel
type connector with one wire in one end and two in the other, which will
most likely put one end outside of it's specified gauge range, or you
will have to insert a connector adding at least one potential problem
mating point given the prevalence of low grade 1/4" QC connectors with
abysmal contact pressure.


My comments on the soldering iron stands- it is too small for the job.
Without sounding like a smartass, judging by his tool choice the OP
doesn't know a lot about soldering the heavier gauge wires used in
automotive service. *His* chance for success is much better with
crimps- he probably lacks the skill/experience to successfully solder
and QC such connections.

I agree with the OPs likelihood of success, but disagree on the
soldering iron. My Weller soldering station with the 24V 48W temperature
controlled "pencil iron" is more than capable of soldering 12 ga wires.


Have you looked under the dashboard of a 1996 Chevy pickup? We have a
similar model at work and it's a real rats nest- not an ideal
soldering environment if only because the chances for damaging other
parts of the harness with the hot iron.

-Carl

1996 Chevy pickup, no, 1997 Chevy pickup, yes many times. I expect that
I'd have better success with my soldering iron given the fact that it
requires far less operating clearance than a good crimp tool. 26+ years
of soldering experience probably help as well.

Pete C.

"stryped" wrote: (clip) I cant get the wire hot enough to melt my solder.
(clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Your soldering "iron" is probably a little small for the job. Sometimes you
can cheat a little by feeding solder into the contact area between the tip
and the wire. As the solder melts, it improves the heat transfer to the
wire, and eventually tins it. Be careful not to trust the joint unless you
actually see the solder wet the surfaces you are joining. This is an area
where beginners often make cold solder joints, which cause trouble later.

Some of you seem to think the OP is trying to solder his battery cable with
a pencil iron. He's installing a remote starter switch, with connections
under the dash, to the terminals on his ignition switch. It might not be
easy for a beginner, but it's possible.

BTW, auto wiring at the switch will have eithr screw connectors, or spade
connectors. Soldering may not be necessary at all. You can buy spade
connectors with multiple terminals.

"Leo Lichtman" wrote in message
news
Some of you seem to think the OP is trying to solder his battery
cable with
a pencil iron. He's installing a remote starter switch, with
connections
under the dash, to the terminals on his ignition switch. It might
not be
easy for a beginner, but it's possible.

BTW, auto wiring at the switch will have eithr screw connectors, or
spade
connectors. Soldering may not be necessary at all. You can buy
spade
connectors with multiple terminals.


Screw or spade connectors?

I suspect it's been a while since you've looked under the dash at a
modern vehicle wiring harness..

On 26 Dec 2005 19:35:36 -0800, "stryped" wrote:

I am a newbie to soldering. I have a pencil tip popular mechanics
soldering iron. I cant get the wire hot enough to melt my solder. Am I
doing something wrong/ Do I need another soldering iron? WHat would you
recomment for the thicker wire such as the starter wires?

I am soldering wires for a remote starter I am trying to add to my 96
chevy truck

Thanks!


These are the best I've seen for your application.
http://www.posi-lock.com/

Available at
any good parts house

DE

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Rick wrote:

Many manufacturers of remote starters (and the people who install
them) specifically warn against using insulation displacement
connectors. The suggested method for a T tap is to cut the insulation
away , separate the wire strand in the middle, insert the second wire,
wrap around the wire being tapped and then itself, and tape then tie
wrap.

I guess some installers do solder, I suspect the majority don't.

I don't doubt you at all that some installers say that but it would make
an absolutely terrible joint, almost completely useless without solder.

I.D. connectors can make a long-term reliable joint when properly sized
and applied.

For the OP's situation I'd go with Spehro's suggestions, just be certain
to get the right size and crimp it correctly - ask if you don't know how.

Fred R
________________
Drop TROU to email.

"stryped" wrote in message
ups.com...
I am "taping" into the starter wires under the dash at the key. (Not
crimping two wires together.) I think it is 16 or 14 guage wire.

OK. My advice is don't screw with your harness. You may be cursing that
remote starter when you're out in the remote and can't start your vehicle!
That said, there are many different size soldering irons with different
capacities. As someone else suggested, wet solder on the tip will help. It
is also critical that the iron section is held tightly with the screws at
the end of the gun. When they are just slightly loose, little heat transfer
occurs. Make sure the wire is hot enough to melt the solder, as opposed to
dropping hot solder on cold wires.


ATP* wrote:
"stryped" wrote in message
oups.com...
I am a newbie to soldering. I have a pencil tip popular mechanics
soldering iron. I cant get the wire hot enough to melt my solder. Am I
doing something wrong/ Do I need another soldering iron? WHat would you
recomment for the thicker wire such as the starter wires?

I am soldering wires for a remote starter I am trying to add to my 96
chevy truck

Thanks!

A pencil tip soldering iron is barely adequate for 18 gauge wire. For
starter wires the correct crimps and eyelets are the way to go. If you
can't
find the right cables pre-made, try a battery distributor or truck-body
shop, they can crimp the proper ends on heavier wire for you.
I just bought a ground strap for my skid steer, last season I was
screwing
around with replacing terminals in the snow, which I finally realized was
a
waste of time.

On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 23:07:26 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
wrote:

On 26 Dec 2005 19:35:36 -0800, the renowned "stryped"
wrote:

I am a newbie to soldering. I have a pencil tip popular mechanics
soldering iron. I cant get the wire hot enough to melt my solder. Am I
doing something wrong/ Do I need another soldering iron? WHat would you
recomment for the thicker wire such as the starter wires?

I am soldering wires for a remote starter I am trying to add to my 96
chevy truck

Thanks!

How many watts is it? What do you mean "starter wire"- you're just
working with AWG16 or whatever control wires, right?

BTW, I hope you're using electronic solder (preferably 63/37 SnPb
alloy with an activated rosin flux.

If you're trying to use 50/50 plumber's solder, it's not going to work
very well, and the acid flux they use destroys electrical connections.
If so, clean everything off really well and start again with the right
solder.

I think the commercial installers usually use crimp joints only. You
can get overpriced crappily made crimp joiners and lugs at Rat shack,
as I did last year at this time when I wanted to install a new CD/MP3
player in my car. ;-)


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

A good crimp is better than a good solder joint. A bad crimp is
trouble waiting to happen. Crimping heavy wire well requires a
ratchet crimper or something that is used with a big hammer. The
hammer-operated crimpers aren't expensive but I don't know where to
tell you to look.

To solder wire that heavy, you'll need a bigger iron, like a 150 watt
soldering gun. A pencil iron won't hack it. This will:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=42685

As Spehro sez, be sure to use rosin core "electronic" solder. Scrape
or sand the wires bright before trying to solder them.

In article , Carl Byrns says...

My comments on the soldering iron stands- it is too small for the job.
Without sounding like a smartass, judging by his tool choice the OP
doesn't know a lot about soldering the heavier gauge wires used in
automotive service. *His* chance for success is much better with
crimps- he probably lacks the skill/experience to successfully solder
and QC such connections.

While I never use crimps for automotive applications (my approach
is solder and heat-shrink) I have to admit that your comments in this
particular thread are probably spot-on.

Honestly though if he cannot solder wires like that, his success
rate with crimp joints will be a good deal below yours, I bet.

Jim


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please reply to:
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Rick wrote:

"Leo Lichtman" wrote in message
news
Some of you seem to think the OP is trying to solder his battery
cable with
a pencil iron. He's installing a remote starter switch, with
connections
under the dash, to the terminals on his ignition switch. It might
not be
easy for a beginner, but it's possible.

BTW, auto wiring at the switch will have eithr screw connectors, or
spade
connectors. Soldering may not be necessary at all. You can buy
spade
connectors with multiple terminals.

Screw or spade connectors?

I suspect it's been a while since you've looked under the dash at a
modern vehicle wiring harness..

Indeed. Most everything these days has an integral connector, often the
sealed weather-pak variety.

Pete C.

DE wrote:

On 26 Dec 2005 19:35:36 -0800, "stryped" wrote:

I am a newbie to soldering. I have a pencil tip popular mechanics
soldering iron. I cant get the wire hot enough to melt my solder. Am I
doing something wrong/ Do I need another soldering iron? WHat would you
recomment for the thicker wire such as the starter wires?

I am soldering wires for a remote starter I am trying to add to my 96
chevy truck

Thanks!

These are the best I've seen for your application.
http://www.posi-lock.com/

Available at
any good parts house

DE

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
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Nifty, I hadn't seen the posi-tap version before. I expect that this
would be the OPs best option, particularly since it does not require
handling a hot soldering iron or wrestling a bulky crimper up under the
dash.

Pete C.

On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 07:46:37 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, Carl
Byrns quickly quoth:


Cark - may I respectfully disagree - don't solder if you don't know
how, that seems OK, but "don't solder underhood connections" is not
correct - most cars from the teens to now have soldered underhood
connections somewhere, though with the environmental problems of lead
you are seeing less solder in the very newest cars. There is nothing
wrong with a properly done solder splice covered with heat shrink, I
have never had one fail.

Most people don't know how to solder and insulate wires for an extreme
environment such as the underhood area of a car. Soldering -like
welding- is a skill that has to be learned, whereas crimping is a
no-brainer.

"Bullpuckey, Carl." I respectfully disagreed.
Crimping is as much an art (especially with a cheap crimping tool)
as soldering or welding.


Clare has the right of it and I also solder terminal-end crimp
connectors (especially those in high heat or vibration areas). I never
solder butt splices.

Ditto to both. Quick, hot joints are the Tao of soldering.


Heat shrink tubing is good stuff, but it can't correct a poor solder
joint- I've seen stray strands sticking out of shrink tubing- that
will cause all sorts of flaky failures.

No kidding. I can't believe some of the electrical work I've seen
on equipment and vehicles. Unreal stuff.


The OP is attempting to solder-connect the wires from a remote-start
kit into the vehicle wiring harness- undoubtedly tapping into critical
circuits. He is attempting to do this using a little pencil iron,
which is most definitely the wrong tool for the job. I believe his
chance for success is much better with crimps.

Although I agree that a too-small iron is the wrong tool,
I much prefer a solder joint to a crimp, and often soldered
crimped joints as well (with a pistol-grip Weller gun and rosin
core solder) though I never soldered a battery cable. I probably
would have used the o/a torch for that. I cleaned the flux off
so it wouldn't have any chance of reacting in the joint, too.

When I was wrenching for a living, I did a lot of of underdash
work for the body shop, replacing dashboards galore, repairing and
replacing harnesses, even building entire new harnesses when a new
one wasn't available. None of my soldered work ever came back in the
5 years I worked there, before hurting my back.


----------------------------------------------------------------
* Blessed are those who can * Humorous T-shirts Online
* laugh at themselves, for they * Comprehensive Website Dev.
* shall never cease to be amused * http://www.diversify.com
----------------------------------------------------------------

On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 08:28:10 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, Gunner
Asch quickly quoth:

On 26 Dec 2005 19:35:36 -0800, "stryped" wrote:

I am a newbie to soldering. I have a pencil tip popular mechanics
soldering iron. I cant get the wire hot enough to melt my solder. Am I
doing something wrong/ Do I need another soldering iron? WHat would you
recomment for the thicker wire such as the starter wires?

I am soldering wires for a remote starter I am trying to add to my 96
chevy truck

Thanks!

a pencil iron for starter wires? Aint going to happen.

Get a nice big Weller 250 watt gun, remove the loop tip, hold the two
prongs against the wire joint and pull the trigger all the way back.

Apply solder when ready.

I firmly disagree x2.

First, I doubt that even a large Weller gun would do the trick.
A small propane/butane or o/a torch would be a much better tool.

Second, I've never seen a tap into starter cables. They use relays
or solenoids as is done properly on Fords (and some Chryslers.)

At this point, I'm pretty sure the OP is trolling. I don't see his
posts unless someone quotes him.


----------------------------------------------------------------
* Blessed are those who can * Humorous T-shirts Online
* laugh at themselves, for they * Comprehensive Website Dev.
* shall never cease to be amused * http://www.diversify.com
----------------------------------------------------------------

On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 19:42:14 GMT, the renowned Ignoramus7428
wrote:


Gentlemen, I am confused a little bit. The OP is installing a remote
starter kit.

These kits allow the user to start his vehicle from some distance.

They basically add one more way to turn the vehicle on (by radio
signal), besides the old fashioned ignition key.

As such, they deal with mo more amps than ignition key does. It should
not be very many amps -- all that is needed is to engage the starter
solenoid, and maybe even less if another relay is involved somewhere.

I would be surprised to see very thick wires there.

The wires that I saw in related areas of my pickup were no more than
perhaps 14 gauge.

Am I completely off base here?

i

Nope.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

On 27 Dec 2005 03:42:34 -0800, "Bugs" wrote:

Also, your soldering iron isn't big enough for the job. It is intended
for light electronics work. It takes more wattage, or a propane torch
to get battery cables hot enough.
Bugs

Want to borrow my 100W American Beauty "pencil" iron? Complete with
ladder-clamp holder. (Though I might have a 120W element in it, I
don't remember which box I grabbed when it puked the factory heater.)

Spent many a long night strapping DTA's with that bugger. Got into
the very dying tail end of AE Steppers, doing last-minute adds and
changes at the same time we were building GTD-5's to replace them.

-- Bruce --

--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

On 27 Dec 2005 05:29:46 -0800, "stryped" wrote:

I am "taping" into the starter wires under the dash at the key. (Not
crimping two wires together.) I think it is 16 or 14 guage wire.


In that case..use a wire tap the proper way.


ATP* wrote:
"stryped" wrote in message
oups.com...
I am a newbie to soldering. I have a pencil tip popular mechanics
soldering iron. I cant get the wire hot enough to melt my solder. Am I
doing something wrong/ Do I need another soldering iron? WHat would you
recomment for the thicker wire such as the starter wires?

I am soldering wires for a remote starter I am trying to add to my 96
chevy truck

Thanks!

A pencil tip soldering iron is barely adequate for 18 gauge wire. For
starter wires the correct crimps and eyelets are the way to go. If you can't
find the right cables pre-made, try a battery distributor or truck-body
shop, they can crimp the proper ends on heavier wire for you.
I just bought a ground strap for my skid steer, last season I was screwing
around with replacing terminals in the snow, which I finally realized was a
waste of time.

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 11:32:51 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 08:28:10 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, Gunner
Asch quickly quoth:

On 26 Dec 2005 19:35:36 -0800, "stryped" wrote:

I am a newbie to soldering. I have a pencil tip popular mechanics
soldering iron. I cant get the wire hot enough to melt my solder. Am I
doing something wrong/ Do I need another soldering iron? WHat would you
recomment for the thicker wire such as the starter wires?

I am soldering wires for a remote starter I am trying to add to my 96
chevy truck

Thanks!

a pencil iron for starter wires? Aint going to happen.

Get a nice big Weller 250 watt gun, remove the loop tip, hold the two
prongs against the wire joint and pull the trigger all the way back.

Apply solder when ready.

I firmly disagree x2.

First, I doubt that even a large Weller gun would do the trick.
A small propane/butane or o/a torch would be a much better tool.

Second, I've never seen a tap into starter cables. They use relays
or solenoids as is done properly on Fords (and some Chryslers.)

At this point, I'm pretty sure the OP is trolling. I don't see his
posts unless someone quotes him.

Shrug.

Gunner, who has soldered main power cables from the battery with a
Weller 250 in just such a fashion, quite sucessfully.

Okie engineering is an art form.


"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 11:32:51 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:


I firmly disagree x2.

First, I doubt that even a large Weller gun would do the trick.
A small propane/butane or o/a torch would be a much better tool.

Second, I've never seen a tap into starter cables. They use relays
or solenoids as is done properly on Fords (and some Chryslers.)

At this point, I'm pretty sure the OP is trolling. I don't see his
posts unless someone quotes him.

Torch only works if you have a soldering tip on it; otherwise it
burns the flux.

It's rather amazing what those big Wellers can do. 8 gage wire is no
problem at all.

On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 17:20:41 -0600, with neither quill nor qualm, Don
Foreman quickly quoth:

On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 11:32:51 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:


I firmly disagree x2.

First, I doubt that even a large Weller gun would do the trick.
A small propane/butane or o/a torch would be a much better tool.

Second, I've never seen a tap into starter cables. They use relays
or solenoids as is done properly on Fords (and some Chryslers.)

At this point, I'm pretty sure the OP is trolling. I don't see his
posts unless someone quotes him.

Torch only works if you have a soldering tip on it; otherwise it
burns the flux.

Heat, apply flux, apply solder to already heated joint. Reapply
torch to area very briefly if necessary.


It's rather amazing what those big Wellers can do. 8 gage wire is no
problem at all.

Yabbut we're talking 4 or 6 gauge, aren't we? (Hold on a sec.)
OK, I just checked my guns and they're both Weller Juniors, 120v
@ 1.1A 60Hz. That's only 132 watts. I'm thinking of a different
gun that you guys are. Mea culpa. A 2x larger one probably would do
it.


------------------------------------------------------
I survived the D.C. Blizzard of 2000...from California.
----------------------------
http://www.diversify.com Comprehensive Website Development
--------------------------------------------------

On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 20:00:45 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 17:20:41 -0600, with neither quill nor qualm, Don
Foreman quickly quoth:

On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 11:32:51 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:


I firmly disagree x2.

First, I doubt that even a large Weller gun would do the trick.
A small propane/butane or o/a torch would be a much better tool.

Second, I've never seen a tap into starter cables. They use relays
or solenoids as is done properly on Fords (and some Chryslers.)

At this point, I'm pretty sure the OP is trolling. I don't see his
posts unless someone quotes him.

Torch only works if you have a soldering tip on it; otherwise it
burns the flux.

Heat, apply flux, apply solder to already heated joint. Reapply
torch to area very briefly if necessary.


It's rather amazing what those big Wellers can do. 8 gage wire is no
problem at all.

Yabbut we're talking 4 or 6 gauge, aren't we? (Hold on a sec.)
OK, I just checked my guns and they're both Weller Juniors, 120v
@ 1.1A 60Hz. That's only 132 watts. I'm thinking of a different
gun that you guys are. Mea culpa. A 2x larger one probably would do
it.

It definitely will -- and you're right, he's probably talking about
solenoid wire.

Those little butane pencil torches with soldering iron tips are
really handy for automotive wiring. They won't do the heavy stuff,
but they do up to #14 with no problem. I used to have a soldering
copper tip that fit on a Bernz-O-Matic torch but I haven't seen it
for years. It was great for heavy wire and light sheetmetal, like
little copper or brass shielding boxes for RF stuff and low-level
audio. I suppose it wouldn't be hard to make one.

In article ,
"Pete C." wrote:

[...]

Screw or spade connectors?

I suspect it's been a while since you've looked under the dash at a
modern vehicle wiring harness..

Indeed. Most everything these days has an integral connector, often the
sealed weather-pak variety.

Pete C.

Thus the lord gave us scotch locks. (: I had to repair a harness
that had been mauled by someone who obviously loved those things. I now
hate them with a passion.

--
B.B. --I am not a goat! thegoat4 at airmail dot net

On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 01:30:14 -0600, "B.B."
u wrote:
In article ,
"Pete C." wrote:

Screw or spade connectors?
I suspect it's been a while since you've looked under the dash at a
modern vehicle wiring harness..

Indeed. Most everything these days has an integral connector, often the
sealed weather-pak variety.

Thus the lord gave us scotch locks. (: I had to repair a harness
that had been mauled by someone who obviously loved those things. I now
hate them with a passion.

Scotchlok taps are good only for wires that are the right gauge, and
are NOT subject to movement or vibration and are NOT heavily loaded.
And are accessible in case they go bad - that's an important point...

Executive Industries used Scotchlok taps to build the wiring harness
extensions for their motorhomes. We went away for a camping weekend,
and found out on arrival we had one working taillight and that was it.

Insert the "Seven Dirty Words You Can't Say On TV" rant here

They wired that cap sitting on a table and then installed it.

I spent the whole f**king weekend squirmed up inside the very hot
rear fiberglass tail-cap "trunk" of the motorhome standing on stacked
milk crates, and changing out all the f**king open-circuit Scotchloks
feeding the tail lights and back marker lights for barrel crimps.

The really fun ones were over the bathroom window, which had a
fiberglass tunnel "dormer" out the back cap, and the triple-bar marker
lights were over the top of that - For a while I actually considered
removing the whole rear cap to get access - then realized what a pain
in the ass /that/ would be...

They are my 'last resort' splice, for obvious reasons.

-- Bruce --

--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

In article , Bruce L. Bergman
says...

They are my 'last resort' splice, for obvious reasons.

Those things stink. They're even worse than crimp splices.

If those wires had been soldered and correctly insulated they'd
last forever.

I've heard all kinds of stories about how soldered connections
get brittle or weak on vehicles. But all the ones I've
ever come across while helping folks by the roadside are
either crimp splices poorly made, wire nuts, or just twist-n-tape
connections.

Never seen a soldered splice be bad in the field. Just all the
other kinds.

Jim


--
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