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Update on machinist trainee
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Update on machinist trainee
This is the number commonly quoted. It's very much
in line with my experiences. That must be related to overhead involved in dealing with unions, I don't know because I've never had to deal with unions. I know my own experience, including owning my own network engineering and software dev firm for 12+ years, our burden rates were about 30% and that included a full benefits package (vac, sick leave, insurance), 401K match, employers share of FICA, unemployment cost and loss of productivity for the few slackers we occasionally ended up with. I suppose if I divided all of my other overhead per employee it would be closer to 60%. The consulting firms and supply chain/distribution firms I've worked for in the past 8 years all ran with about a 30% burden rate as well. It's interesting that your experience is so different. Tillman |
Update on machinist trainee
In article ,
"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote: Harold, please inform me about exactly which jobs are providing that elusive "unearned money." I've been searching for those for years. All the stories I hear along these lines seem to indicate that shortly after the trainee thinks he has one, he gets fired out the door. Jim Not referring to just machinists, Jim. Workpeople in general. Do you feel a kid in high school, lacking skills of any kind, is worth over $7 hr to serve burgers? I don't. Do you think a UPS driver is worth $28 hr? I don't. These, amongst many others, are the people that are making it more expensive for all of us to live. They generally have no credentials that make them worth their pay-----and can easily be replaced with anyone off the street. You want more pay----get an education, so you have something to sell. You don't want to go to school, or maybe you can't? Then learn a trade and get good at it. Make yourself into something that can't be replaced by anyone off the street. Only then are you worth more than minimum wage, which, in this state (Washington) is totally unreasonably high. Harold This reminds me of an article I read about Walmart vs. Costco. Walmart pays low wages. Period. As a result employees have low loyalty and a high turnover rate and Walmart spends a ton of money replacing them. OTOH, Costco will give their employees raises over time, so thier turnover rate is far lower. In the end it works out about even and per employee both spend roughly the same amount--just in different areas. But Walmart gets stuck with a bunch of rookies all the time. Could be that UPS has chosen the Costco model with their drivers. The drivers certainly have some valuable skills, such as knowledge of the area's roads, which would take time to replace. Beyond that, IIRC UPS drivers are hired internally, so an employee that becomes a driver has already demonstrated the ability to show up to work reliably. -- B.B. --I am not a goat! thegoat4 at airmail dot net |
Update on machinist trainee
On Fri, 11 Nov 2005 16:19:42 GMT, Ecnerwal
wrote: In article , Eric R Snow wrote: She worked for me as a temp a couple years ago. She was a hard worker, always on time, and not afraid to use her intelligence. Sounds like _she_ might make a good machinist trainee... Yeah, I already asked her. ERS |
Update on machinist trainee
On Wed, 09 Nov 2005 16:01:15 GMT, the renowned "Tom Gardner"
wrote: "Spehro Pefhany" wrote in message I hear outsourcing to China and India is popular. I don't have a market for foreign stuff other than chip brushes and the Stainless Steel toothbrushes, neither of which is made in the US anymore. 75% of my stuff goes into the food service trade now. Stainless toothbrushes, eh? Well, what you can do is change the packaging. First you need a nice big waving US flag for the background, then in BIG letters OHIO BRUSH, perhaps with an outline of the Buckeye state. Then you need a photo of a satisfied-looking white guy holding the product. The markings "made in China" should be on the back and in the legal minimum point size. I know some guys in Ukraine who can put the graphics together (probably using pirated Adobe software). If you bristle (hahah) at the idea, just think you'll probably be getting the finished product at the same price as the raw materials, no more hassles with production workers, and you'll be able to buy a shiny new Lexus with the improved bottom line. You could also try to change the system, but you know d*** well we'll both be long dead before that happens. Best regards, Spehro Pefhany -- "it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com |
Update on machinist trainee
In article .com, tillius
says... This is the number commonly quoted. It's very much in line with my experiences. That must be related to overhead involved in dealing with unions, Ah, no. Let's just say that my experience is derived from a lifetime working in R&D, and the rule that employee's cost is about twice what they get paid is based on decidedly NON-union companies. One of them being one of the most famous non-union companies. They have a 'one breath' rule. If you are a manager, you are allowed to take ONE breath before picking up the phone and calling your manager, if you ever hear anyone you manage talking about unionizing. Jim -- ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
Update on machinist trainee
jim rozen wrote:
In article .com, tillius says... This is the number commonly quoted. It's very much in line with my experiences. That must be related to overhead involved in dealing with unions, Ah, no. Let's just say that my experience is derived from a lifetime working in R&D, and the rule that employee's cost is about twice what they get paid is based on decidedly NON-union companies. One of them being one of the most famous non-union companies. They have a 'one breath' rule. If you are a manager, you are allowed to take ONE breath before picking up the phone and calling your manager, if you ever hear anyone you manage talking about unionizing. I'd also wonder where with that lifetime we're talking about. Employee overhead in the 70's and 80's might have been considerably lower than present, given the increases in health care and OSHA compliance. Assuming, of course, that the employer pays most of the increases and is diligent about following OSHA regulations. |
Update on machinist trainee
On Fri, 11 Nov 2005 17:06:14 GMT, Gunner
wrote: On 10 Nov 2005 10:59:09 -0800, wrote: Pete C. wrote: Minimum wage laws are nothing more than politicians buying votes. Any minimum wage increase results in a year or so of phony bubble in the apparent standard of living while the market forces via inflation re-balance the economy so that the net result is exactly the same work to standard of living balance as before. The numbers go up in both the wage and then cost of living, but the ratio remains the same. It sounds like what you are really pointing out, without realizing it, is that our economy can only function by exploiting some fraction of the workforce: ie, paying them less than the cost of living. A hint...some jobs are NOT worth the cost of living. They are entry level jobs. They are perfect for part timers, those with other incomes or only wishing to make a few bucks on the side. There is no intent to "exploit the masses", but its a fact of life..that working at a drive up window is not a career you can raise a family on. And you are a moron if you try. Nor will the wage of that particular job ever be enough to raise a family on. Door greeter at Walmart..oh yes indeed..now there is a career you can depend on to allow you to send your kids to college. Not even tips. Yes, but you have the opportunity to gather with the rest of the staff a half hour before opening time for a little inspirational pep talk, then participate in the awe inspiring WALLMART YELL! Gerry :-)} London, Canada |
Update on machinist trainee
I'd also wonder where with that lifetime we're
talking about. Employee overhead in the 70's and 80's might have been considerably lower than present, given the increases in health care and OSHA compliance. My experience is much more recent, mostly from the mid-90's through the present. The company I'm with now has a burden rate of 30%, and they have very good benefits (after 6 mos. of employment, the employee's health insurance cost is $30/month single, $60/month family). This company is in the warehouse/distribution logistics industry. Prior to here I was with a major technology and professional services consulting firm and the cost models I built for managed service practices used a 31% burden rate. In the Pharmaceutical sector, where I built a lot of managed resource models for companies like J&J, Wyeth Ayerst, and Aventis (late 90's), the burden rates ranged between 29% and 34%. Tillman |
Update on machinist trainee
Andy Asberry wrote:
On Wed, 09 Nov 2005 23:29:59 GMT, "Pete C." wrote: Andy Asberry wrote: On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 20:39:56 GMT, "Tom Gardner" wrote: I feel for you Eric! In the Cleveland inner city, my track record is a dismal 1 in 10 for keeping employees. The work ethic today has forced me to close my entire wood shop, except for one shaper, and outsource all my other blocks. The more I paid in wages, the sooner their "comfort level" was reached and the more time they missed. I'm just too old to fight it anymore I admire your whole philosophy to clone some knowledge. If you learn some more tricks to handle tardy and absent employees...PLEASE let me know! My method to reduce Monday sickness. Pay day is Friday for the previous week. Checks are cut on Monday. If you work Monday, you can pick up your check. If not, it goes in the afternoon mail to be delivered Thursday or Friday. At first, I thought it might only move the absences to Friday but it hasn't worked out that way. Checks? Geez, I've been on direct deposit for the past decade. Even my expense "checks" are direct deposit. Pete C. Not all banks accept direct deposits from other banks. I would love it but you can't expect an employee to change banks as a condition of employment. Really? I work for a large bank for a long time had my pay direct deposited to my account at a different bank. When I setup the direct deposit I don't recall any limitations as to the institutions it could be direct deposited to, even credit unions. Pete C. |
Update on machinist trainee
tillius wrote:
If they were to treat their machines like they want to treat their employees (like garbage), then as soon as their $75,000 machine breaks down a.k.a. is late to work, they will have to throw it out and get a new one. Can't tolerate any late to works, regardless of the excuse, no working on repairing the machine, just throw it out and get a new one... Well, I guess if that $75,000 machine was continually breaking down and causing missed deadlines on a regular basis, the negative impact it would have on the bottom line, in repair costs, lost production, and lost jobs because of missed deadlines would soon make it a liability deserving to be dumped (or sold at a loss, which is more akin to what happens when an employee is let go. Since most employers don't fire the chronically tardy, they just lay them off. It costs that company to do that, in increased unemployment insurance taxes, and in the investment to find and train a replacement. Tillman The post I replied to referenced an employer with a two strikes and you're out rule, which is a far cry from firing the chronically tardy. Pete C. |
Update on machinist trainee
The post I replied to referenced an employer with a two strikes and
you're out rule, which is a far cry from firing the chronically tardy. Acknowledged and agreed that 2 strikes and your out probably cost the employer more in loss production from disgruntled employees with issues they NEEDED to take care of and couldn't for fear of losing their job.! Tillman |
Update on machinist trainee
On Fri, 11 Nov 2005 10:15:33 -0800, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote: "Gunner" wrote in message .. . On 10 Nov 2005 10:59:09 -0800, wrote: Pete C. wrote: Minimum wage laws are nothing more than politicians buying votes. Any minimum wage increase results in a year or so of phony bubble in the apparent standard of living while the market forces via inflation re-balance the economy so that the net result is exactly the same work to standard of living balance as before. The numbers go up in both the wage and then cost of living, but the ratio remains the same. It sounds like what you are really pointing out, without realizing it, is that our economy can only function by exploiting some fraction of the workforce: ie, paying them less than the cost of living. A hint...some jobs are NOT worth the cost of living. They are entry level jobs. They are perfect for part timers, those with other incomes or only wishing to make a few bucks on the side. There is no intent to "exploit the masses", but its a fact of life..that working at a drive up window is not a career you can raise a family on. And you are a moron if you try. Nor will the wage of that particular job ever be enough to raise a family on. Door greeter at Walmart..oh yes indeed..now there is a career you can depend on to allow you to send your kids to college. Not even tips. If that's true, we'll have a problem as soon as the various games we play to deny it catch up with us. The only game being played, is that of the Socialists who think/trumpet that all jobs should provide a living wage. Gunner What Gunner said! It's absurd to assume that just because you're willing to work that you deserve respectable pay. What message is that sending society? Show up with no qualifications and the world will take care of you? You want respectable pay, get an education, or learn a trade. Pull yourself up off the bottom, so you have value. How about sending this message instead: Don't prepare yourself to make a living, and you'll end up living under a bridge somewhere, and no one gives a damn if you do. Unearned money should never be made available to those that *won't* do for themselves----never. Harold But Harold...it might hurt their self esteem if they actually have to know something or to work hard at becoming skilled at some trade that does pay a living wage. Personally..I think if anyone wants to be a brain surgeon, and can afford that nifty set of scrubs...they should go for the gusto. Gunner "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
Update on machinist trainee
"Gunner Asch" wrote in message ... On Fri, 11 Nov 2005 10:15:33 -0800, "Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote: "Gunner" wrote in message .. . On 10 Nov 2005 10:59:09 -0800, wrote: Pete C. wrote: Minimum wage laws are nothing more than politicians buying votes. Any minimum wage increase results in a year or so of phony bubble in the apparent standard of living while the market forces via inflation re-balance the economy so that the net result is exactly the same work to standard of living balance as before. The numbers go up in both the wage and then cost of living, but the ratio remains the same. It sounds like what you are really pointing out, without realizing it, is that our economy can only function by exploiting some fraction of the workforce: ie, paying them less than the cost of living. A hint...some jobs are NOT worth the cost of living. They are entry level jobs. They are perfect for part timers, those with other incomes or only wishing to make a few bucks on the side. There is no intent to "exploit the masses", but its a fact of life..that working at a drive up window is not a career you can raise a family on. And you are a moron if you try. Nor will the wage of that particular job ever be enough to raise a family on. Door greeter at Walmart..oh yes indeed..now there is a career you can depend on to allow you to send your kids to college. Not even tips. If that's true, we'll have a problem as soon as the various games we play to deny it catch up with us. The only game being played, is that of the Socialists who think/trumpet that all jobs should provide a living wage. Gunner What Gunner said! It's absurd to assume that just because you're willing to work that you deserve respectable pay. What message is that sending society? Show up with no qualifications and the world will take care of you? You want respectable pay, get an education, or learn a trade. Pull yourself up off the bottom, so you have value. How about sending this message instead: Don't prepare yourself to make a living, and you'll end up living under a bridge somewhere, and no one gives a damn if you do. Unearned money should never be made available to those that *won't* do for themselves----never. Harold But Harold...it might hurt their self esteem if they actually have to know something or to work hard at becoming skilled at some trade that does pay a living wage. Chuckle! Yeah, that would be stretching things, wouldn't it. And we wonder what's wrong with society! What the hell became of personal pride? H |
Update on machinist trainee
What the hell became of personal pride?
Severely injurred by enslavement through socialist entitlement programs, injurred, but not dead. Tillman |
Update on machinist trainee
Harold and Susan Vordos wrote: It's absurd to assume that just because you're willing to work that you deserve respectable pay. What message is that sending society? Ahhhh... work hard, live well? Just a thought ;-) No offense, but I think it's time to come off of your condescending high horse. Hope this helps. Electron Harold |
Update on machinist trainee
"mr electron" wrote in message oups.com... Harold and Susan Vordos wrote: It's absurd to assume that just because you're willing to work that you deserve respectable pay. What message is that sending society? Ahhhh... work hard, live well? Just a thought ;-) No offense, but I think it's time to come off of your condescending high horse. Hope this helps. Electron Harold Most folks that think they are worth unearned money feel the same way. You one of them? There's nothing condescending about my attitude ----- in fact, it's one that more should assume. We're living in a society that hasn't a clue about *value*. You don't think so? Explain to me in terms that I can understand why it is that virtually all of our industries have left for greener pastures. You can debate all day long the concept that they are greedy, but the truth is if we want to have jobs in this country, we must compete in a world market. Demanding more pay when your employer is giving serious consideration to sending his orders for widgets to a different country, where he can obtain them without putting up with whining employees that see themselves as hard put upon because the boss expects them to actually show up and be productive is a good way to accelerate the process, and who can blame them? I can't speak for you, but when I was employed (I worked for myself for years, because I wasn't pleased with the inequities of employers) I worked my ass off for the boss. He got everything from me that he bargained for. I showed up, did my day's work, and there was no concern about anything else but that. Expecting that today appears to be unreasonable. I don't like people that think they can ride free on society. Maybe you haven't figured it out yet-------but it's true----there is no free lunch. Harold |
Update on machinist trainee
In article , Harold and Susan Vordos says...
There's nothing condescending about my attitude ----- in fact, it's one that more should assume. We're living in a society that hasn't a clue about *value*. You don't think so? Explain to me in terms that I can understand why it is that virtually all of our industries have left for greener pastures. Ah, I think Ed has already done that. The reason is that the labor costs in china are 1/20th that of the US. Basically it's a free market, and companies want to take advantage of that 1/20th number. This is why GM is now building all of its engines in china. The only way that american workers are going to learn a lesson about "value" is by having all their wages divided by 20. What this means is that your retirement and SS benefits are now likewise divided by 20. Once that happens, then you too will appreciate "value." Harold, you keep insisting that something needs to be done to teach workers a lesson - or at least that's what it sounds like. Vindictive or not, I cannot seem exactly what kind of even or law will do this. Short of writing letters to all the US companies, the gist of which would be "you're paying folks too much," what else could you do? Jim -- ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
Update on machinist trainee
jim rozen wrote:
This is why GM is now building all of its engines in china. I beg your pardon? Kevin Gallimore ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
Update on machinist trainee
On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 01:29:39 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote: Andy Asberry wrote: On Wed, 09 Nov 2005 23:29:59 GMT, "Pete C." wrote: Andy Asberry wrote: On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 20:39:56 GMT, "Tom Gardner" wrote: I feel for you Eric! In the Cleveland inner city, my track record is a dismal 1 in 10 for keeping employees. The work ethic today has forced me to close my entire wood shop, except for one shaper, and outsource all my other blocks. The more I paid in wages, the sooner their "comfort level" was reached and the more time they missed. I'm just too old to fight it anymore I admire your whole philosophy to clone some knowledge. If you learn some more tricks to handle tardy and absent employees...PLEASE let me know! My method to reduce Monday sickness. Pay day is Friday for the previous week. Checks are cut on Monday. If you work Monday, you can pick up your check. If not, it goes in the afternoon mail to be delivered Thursday or Friday. At first, I thought it might only move the absences to Friday but it hasn't worked out that way. Checks? Geez, I've been on direct deposit for the past decade. Even my expense "checks" are direct deposit. Pete C. Not all banks accept direct deposits from other banks. I would love it but you can't expect an employee to change banks as a condition of employment. Really? I work for a large bank for a long time had my pay direct deposited to my account at a different bank. When I setup the direct deposit I don't recall any limitations as to the institutions it could be direct deposited to, even credit unions. Pete C. IIRC, Wells Fargo won't transfer to any other bank. |
Update on machinist trainee
On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 12:22:17 -0800, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote: "Gunner Asch" wrote in message .. . On Fri, 11 Nov 2005 10:15:33 -0800, "Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote: "Gunner" wrote in message .. . On 10 Nov 2005 10:59:09 -0800, wrote: Pete C. wrote: Minimum wage laws are nothing more than politicians buying votes. Any minimum wage increase results in a year or so of phony bubble in the apparent standard of living while the market forces via inflation re-balance the economy so that the net result is exactly the same work to standard of living balance as before. The numbers go up in both the wage and then cost of living, but the ratio remains the same. It sounds like what you are really pointing out, without realizing it, is that our economy can only function by exploiting some fraction of the workforce: ie, paying them less than the cost of living. A hint...some jobs are NOT worth the cost of living. They are entry level jobs. They are perfect for part timers, those with other incomes or only wishing to make a few bucks on the side. There is no intent to "exploit the masses", but its a fact of life..that working at a drive up window is not a career you can raise a family on. And you are a moron if you try. Nor will the wage of that particular job ever be enough to raise a family on. Door greeter at Walmart..oh yes indeed..now there is a career you can depend on to allow you to send your kids to college. Not even tips. If that's true, we'll have a problem as soon as the various games we play to deny it catch up with us. The only game being played, is that of the Socialists who think/trumpet that all jobs should provide a living wage. Gunner What Gunner said! It's absurd to assume that just because you're willing to work that you deserve respectable pay. What message is that sending society? Show up with no qualifications and the world will take care of you? You want respectable pay, get an education, or learn a trade. Pull yourself up off the bottom, so you have value. How about sending this message instead: Don't prepare yourself to make a living, and you'll end up living under a bridge somewhere, and no one gives a damn if you do. Unearned money should never be made available to those that *won't* do for themselves----never. Harold But Harold...it might hurt their self esteem if they actually have to know something or to work hard at becoming skilled at some trade that does pay a living wage. Chuckle! Yeah, that would be stretching things, wouldn't it. And we wonder what's wrong with society! What the hell became of personal pride? H Personal pride...hummm doesnt that mean wearing the jersey of their favorite sports team? Or having the latest greatest SUV eating a hole in their income? Or a new pair of Nike's? All external things you can buy...none of which has anything to do with their internal worth...which..all to often..isnt much. Gunner "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
Update on machinist trainee
On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 17:57:07 -0800, with neither quill nor qualm,
"Harold and Susan Vordos" quickly quoth: "mr electron" wrote in message roups.com... Harold and Susan Vordos wrote: It's absurd to assume that just because you're willing to work that you deserve respectable pay. What message is that sending society? Ahhhh... work hard, live well? Just a thought ;-) No offense, but I think it's time to come off of your condescending high horse. Most folks that think they are worth unearned money feel the same way. You one of them? There's nothing condescending about my attitude ----- in fact, it's one that more should assume. We're living in a society that hasn't a clue about *value*. You don't think so? Explain to me in terms that I can understand why it is that virtually all of our industries have left for greener pastures. You can debate all day long the concept that they are greedy, but the truth is if we want to have jobs in this country, we must compete in a world market. Demanding more pay when your employer is giving serious consideration to sending his orders for widgets to a different country, where he can obtain them without putting up with whining employees that see themselves as hard put upon because the boss expects them to actually show up and be productive is a good way to accelerate the process, and who can blame them? Hear, hear! But the demands are actually more pay, fewer hours, free health care to abuse, and a better working environment than the gods themselves have. I just love Union thinking, don't you? Where this leads are top-paid stevedore jobs with the Maf^H^H^HUnions since all the industry has gone offshore and beaucoup megatons of imports have to be handled. I can't speak for you, but when I was employed (I worked for myself for years, because I wasn't pleased with the inequities of employers) I worked my ass off for the boss. He got everything from me that he bargained for. I showed up, did my day's work, and there was no concern about anything else but that. Expecting that today appears to be unreasonable. Yeah, I don't understand the lack of work ethic that I see today. Why do so many people have NO pride whatsoever in their work? Has the pursuit of a greenback become the sole drive now? What a way to live. Feh! I don't like people that think they can ride free on society. Maybe you haven't figured it out yet-------but it's true----there is no free lunch. Hence Heinlein's famous acronym, TANSTAAFL (There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch) -- From time to time, we have been tempted to believe that society has become too complex to be managed by self-rule, that government by an elite group is superior to government for, by, and of the people. But if no one among us is capable of governing himself, then who among us has the capacity to govern someone else? All of us together, in and out of government, must bear the burden. The solutions we seek must be equitable, with no one group singled out to pay a higher price. -President Ronald Reagan First Inaugural Address Tuesday, January 20, 1981 |
Update on machinist trainee
But if no one among us is capable of governing himself, then who
among us has the capacity to govern someone else? Why, the Democrats, of course. They've not been happy since the radical Republicans took their slaves away, and have worked ever since to restore slavery. They're succeeding too, through the socialist entitlement programs that breed dependancy on the socialist elitists, in enslaving a large portion of our population. Tillman |
Update on machinist trainee
In article . com,
"tillius" wrote: But if no one among us is capable of governing himself, then who among us has the capacity to govern someone else? Why, the Democrats, of course. They've not been happy since the radical Republicans took their slaves away, and have worked ever since to restore slavery. They're succeeding too, through the socialist entitlement programs that breed dependancy on the socialist elitists, in enslaving a large portion of our population. Tillman Until that post you were almost not crazy. -- B.B. --I am not a goat! thegoat4 at airmail dot net |
Update on machinist trainee
Until that post you were almost not crazy
You don't think the socialist entitlement programs create a dependancy by destroying personal initiative? Take a tour of any of the socialist countries in Europe and ask the taxi driver why he doesn't do something else. (this is the job the government says I have to do). Why he doesn't go and get his own taxi. (the government owns the all the taxis). Look at those countries and see who has the freedoms we enjoy in this country. It's the elitists who run the government. You don't think people like John Kerry, Bill Clinton, Howard Dean, Ted Kennedy and Hillary Clinton are the same as those elitists? They have one goal. One purpose. To gain and/or maintain their power. How do they do that? By keeping their constituents dependent upon the entitlements THEY can hand out. If that wasn't so, surely they would have designed these programs to really HELP those in need. The fact is, they're not designed that way and they don't work that way. Turn a blind eye to the slavery that these people in need have been sold into is you wish. Unless you're one of the elistists, if you just sit by, buy their lies, and let them get away with it, you'll end up one of the slaves as well. Tillman |
Update on machinist trainee
On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 18:17:23 -0600, "B.B."
u wrote: In article . com, "tillius" wrote: But if no one among us is capable of governing himself, then who among us has the capacity to govern someone else? Why, the Democrats, of course. They've not been happy since the radical Republicans took their slaves away, and have worked ever since to restore slavery. They're succeeding too, through the socialist entitlement programs that breed dependancy on the socialist elitists, in enslaving a large portion of our population. Tillman Until that post you were almost not crazy. Actually..if you look at the numbers of people who are dependant on Massa for their every bit of food, shelter and drink...Tillman is quite right. Gunner "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
Update on machinist trainee
tillius wrote:
Until that post you were almost not crazy You don't think the socialist entitlement programs create a dependancy by destroying personal initiative? Take a tour of any of the socialist countries in Europe and ask the taxi driver why he doesn't do something else. (this is the job the government says I have to do). Why he doesn't go and get his own taxi. (the government owns the all the taxis). Look at those countries and see who has the freedoms we enjoy in this country. It's the elitists who run the government. You don't think people like John Kerry, Bill Clinton, Howard Dean, Ted Kennedy and Hillary Clinton are the same as those elitists? They have one goal. One purpose. To gain and/or maintain their power. How do they do that? By keeping their constituents dependent upon the entitlements THEY can hand out. If that wasn't so, surely they would have designed these programs to really HELP those in need. The fact is, they're not designed that way and they don't work that way. Turn a blind eye to the slavery that these people in need have been sold into is you wish. Unless you're one of the elistists, if you just sit by, buy their lies, and let them get away with it, you'll end up one of the slaves as well. Tillman What a total crock of ****! I am not on the public dole. I have been - when the need was there. Otherwise I have pulled my weight and have paid my taxes so that others in need could be helped! Close to me are several people who are not able to cope with life without social assistance. Their needs are varied - from physical disabibities stemimng from work related injuries to physical and mental disabilities from birth. I would rather live in a society that takes care of these people than the dollar-first uncaring system that the USA exemplifies. In fact - taking care costs less in the long run than ignoring the problem! Any minor exploitation of this sort of system is just that - minor. Scammers sometimes get caught. So what? The good outdoes the possible bad. It is just a matter of administration - cheap at half the price. Anyone saying different is scamming for their own interests. The least of our society must have hope. Without that we do not have a society! We have a jungle. Regards. Ken. |
Update on machinist trainee
Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 18:17:23 -0600, "B.B." u wrote: In article . com, "tillius" wrote: But if no one among us is capable of governing himself, then who among us has the capacity to govern someone else? Why, the Democrats, of course. They've not been happy since the radical Republicans took their slaves away, and have worked ever since to restore slavery. They're succeeding too, through the socialist entitlement programs that breed dependancy on the socialist elitists, in enslaving a large portion of our population. Tillman Until that post you were almost not crazy. Actually..if you look at the numbers of people who are dependant on Massa for their every bit of food, shelter and drink...Tillman is quite right. Gunner No - He is not!! |
Update on machinist trainee
I am not on the public dole.
I have been - when the need was there. Otherwise I have pulled my weight and have paid my taxes so that others in need could be helped! Close to me are several people who are not able to cope with life without social assistance. Their needs are varied - from physical disabibities stemimng from work related injuries to physical and mental disabilities from birth. I would rather live in a society that takes care of these people A safety net is far different from the expoitive welfare state that keeps people on the dole for life. I'm not talking about the physically or mentally disabled. I'm talking about those who have been injured by an education system that has been destroyed by the *feel good* educational policies of the democrat elitists. I'm talking about those who have been trapped in a system that penalizes them for attempting to climb out of the pit the socialists have trapped them in. Any minor exploitation of this sort of system is just that - minor. The exploitation is far from minor. The biggest exploitation, however, is the system exploiting those it makes dependent upon it for their very existence. The least of our society must have hope. Without that we do not have a society! What hope is there in waiting for the check to come in the mail so you can pay rent on the rathole you live in, getting foodstamps so you can buy less than nutritional junk? Hope is someone there to give you a helping hand, not to continue to pass the dependency on to the next generation, but to claim your independence and enjoy the freedom our founding fathers envisioned. Tillman |
Update on machinist trainee
On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 19:57:34 -0800, "Ken Davey"
wrote: tillius wrote: Until that post you were almost not crazy You don't think the socialist entitlement programs create a dependancy by destroying personal initiative? Take a tour of any of the socialist countries in Europe and ask the taxi driver why he doesn't do something else. (this is the job the government says I have to do). Why he doesn't go and get his own taxi. (the government owns the all the taxis). Look at those countries and see who has the freedoms we enjoy in this country. It's the elitists who run the government. You don't think people like John Kerry, Bill Clinton, Howard Dean, Ted Kennedy and Hillary Clinton are the same as those elitists? They have one goal. One purpose. To gain and/or maintain their power. How do they do that? By keeping their constituents dependent upon the entitlements THEY can hand out. If that wasn't so, surely they would have designed these programs to really HELP those in need. The fact is, they're not designed that way and they don't work that way. Turn a blind eye to the slavery that these people in need have been sold into is you wish. Unless you're one of the elistists, if you just sit by, buy their lies, and let them get away with it, you'll end up one of the slaves as well. Tillman What a total crock of ****! I am not on the public dole. I have been - when the need was there. Otherwise I have pulled my weight and have paid my taxes so that others in need could be helped! Close to me are several people who are not able to cope with life without social assistance. Their needs are varied - from physical disabibities stemimng from work related injuries to physical and mental disabilities from birth. I would rather live in a society that takes care of these people than the dollar-first uncaring system that the USA exemplifies. In fact - taking care costs less in the long run than ignoring the problem! Any minor exploitation of this sort of system is just that - minor. Scammers sometimes get caught. So what? The good outdoes the possible bad. It is just a matter of administration - cheap at half the price. Anyone saying different is scamming for their own interests. The least of our society must have hope. Without that we do not have a society! We have a jungle. Regards. Ken. New Orleans Gunner "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
Update on machinist trainee
On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 19:58:13 -0800, "Ken Davey"
wrote: Gunner Asch wrote: On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 18:17:23 -0600, "B.B." u wrote: In article . com, "tillius" wrote: But if no one among us is capable of governing himself, then who among us has the capacity to govern someone else? Why, the Democrats, of course. They've not been happy since the radical Republicans took their slaves away, and have worked ever since to restore slavery. They're succeeding too, through the socialist entitlement programs that breed dependancy on the socialist elitists, in enslaving a large portion of our population. Tillman Until that post you were almost not crazy. Actually..if you look at the numbers of people who are dependant on Massa for their every bit of food, shelter and drink...Tillman is quite right. Gunner No - He is not!! Yes - He is. Unfortunately. Gunner "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
Update on machinist trainee
For it to be a compelling defense you'll have to direct
me towards a more practical way to followup. Where's some information I can access from within the US (without spending a ton of money or requiring anything equally ludicrous) that shows me that Europe is run by elitists? France. I already know not to trust your assumptions because you guessed (incorrectly) several times that 100% employee overhead mentioned elsewhere is due to unions. I did clearly state, in those posts, that I was guessing it was due to unions, not that it was a fact. I based that on my own extensive experience over the past 20 years, and more specifically over the past 10 years. In addition, when the responses were provided that stated they were not union related overhead, I simply stated that I found that interesting. And you are certainly welcome to your opinion. Tillman |
Update on machinist trainee
snip
I did clearly state, in those posts, that I was guessing it was due to unions, not that it was a fact. I based that on my own extensive experience over the past 20 years, and more specifically over the past 10 years. In addition, when the responses were provided that stated they were not union related overhead, I simply stated that I found that interesting. snip A small troll --- Which leads to an interesting observation. Unions exist to improve the wages and working conditions of their members. Corporations exist to usefully employ and increase the capital entrusted to them by the stockholders. While neither group has been particularly successful when objectively assessed in the aggregate over the last 20 years, it appears the leaders of the Unions are doing a far better job for their stakeholder than corporate management is doing for theirs. The rate of increase in compensation for corporate management seems to have far outpaced that of the union leadership. Uncle George |
Update on machinist trainee
On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 22:11:22 -0600, "B.B."
u wrote: anyone who hates Democrats (that would be Gunner) Actually...I dont hate Democrats. I have nothing but deep contempt for Liberals. Liberal Democrats. Joe Lieberman is a Democrat. But hardly a Liberal one. Id vote for him I think. Zell Miller as well. Chucky Schumer is a Liberal Democrat. Id bring new rope to his hanging, paying out of my own pocket. Id take out a loan for rope for KKKennedy and Pelosi. Big difference Gunner "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
Update on machinist trainee
In article .com,
"tillius" wrote: For it to be a compelling defense you'll have to direct me towards a more practical way to followup. Where's some information I can access from within the US (without spending a ton of money or requiring anything equally ludicrous) that shows me that Europe is run by elitists? France. That's what I was getting at. A comment like that just stirs up a lot of emotions both with and against you, but doesn't contain any information. How does "France," prove that Europe is run by elitists? I already know not to trust your assumptions because you guessed (incorrectly) several times that 100% employee overhead mentioned elsewhere is due to unions. I did clearly state, in those posts, that I was guessing it was due to unions, not that it was a fact. I based that on my own extensive experience over the past 20 years, and more specifically over the past 10 years. In addition, when the responses were provided that stated they were not union related overhead, I simply stated that I found that interesting. Obviously your own experience is not a suitable guide for making such assumptions, regardless of how many disclaimers you add to your comments. Did you base the above "France," response on your own extensive experience? If you were wrong once, how do you know you won't be wrong again? What will you change to prevent the mistake next time? And you are certainly welcome to your opinion. Tillman -- B.B. --I am not a goat! thegoat4 at airmail dot net |
Update on machinist trainee
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Update on machinist trainee
"jim rozen" wrote in message ... In article , Harold and Susan Vordos says... There's nothing condescending about my attitude ----- in fact, it's one that more should assume. We're living in a society that hasn't a clue about *value*. You don't think so? Explain to me in terms that I can understand why it is that virtually all of our industries have left for greener pastures. Ah, I think Ed has already done that. The reason is that the labor costs in china are 1/20th that of the US. Basically it's a free market, and companies want to take advantage of that 1/20th number. This is why GM is now building all of its engines in china. Are you sure about the GM engines, Jim? I've never heard that, but if it's true, it's all the more appalling. The only way that american workers are going to learn a lesson about "value" is by having all their wages divided by 20. What this means is that your retirement and SS benefits are now likewise divided by 20. Once that happens, then you too will appreciate "value." Harold, you keep insisting that something needs to be done to teach workers a lesson - or at least that's what it sounds like. Vindictive or not, I cannot seem exactly what kind of even or law will do this. Short of writing letters to all the US companies, the gist of which would be "you're paying folks too much," what else could you do? Jim I guess it's evident this issue bothers me a great deal. I realize it's a stretch, Jim, but something that we're going to face eventually---we're in a world economy. While I realize that Ed has explained it to his satisfaction, and don't challenge his credentials in any way, the harsh reality is we're losing the work--which likely would slow down if workers here paid more attention to their responsibilities and accepted reasonable wages, maybe in keeping with their production. We simply expect too much for our time---an example of which are the assembly people at Boeing that went on strike a couple months ago for more when they were already earning right at $60,000/yr. Where does it end? Yeah, I realize working for less doesn't set well with you---but is there another solution? We've been lead down the path that we're a "service society", so folks abandoned the skilled trades in droves, moving towards becoming service people, only to have that industry follow on the heels of manufacturing. Hell, the only service we're going to have left is jobs that can't be exported----delivery people, brick front store clerks, and other like people. That balance of us won't have employment and won't be able to afford the services offered by those that remain employed. Wouldn't it be better to have a lesser paying job than no job? It looks to me that's the way it's headed, although I sure hope not. I think you realize I don't feel I have a solution to the problem, but demanding more money for less effort is only adding fuel to the fire. I realize you're not fond of SS-----who in hell is? I didn't want to pay it, and --------remember-------I was self employed, so my cut was the whole magilla-----it was the largest tax I paid for years. It was taken from me without my permission---on the promise that I'd get it back when I was old. I am. Hope you can still find it in your heart to consider me a worthy person in spite of the fact I now draw the money. I've done my best to not be a drag on society----paid taxes, worked all my life without drawing any subsidies of any kind. I'm entitled to this one. Be well, Harold |
Update on machinist trainee
In article ,
"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote: \ I realize you're not fond of SS-----who in hell is? I didn't want to pay it, and --------remember-------I was self employed, so my cut was the whole magilla-----it was the largest tax I paid for years. It was taken from me without my permission---on the promise that I'd get it back when I was old. I am. Hope you can still find it in your heart to consider me a worthy person in spite of the fact I now draw the money. I've done my best to not be a drag on society----paid taxes, worked all my life without drawing any subsidies of any kind. I'm entitled to this one. I think you are doing a public service to drain money from the govt by any means posible. We need reform and that only comes in a crisis. When the system is so bankrupy that the president's paycheck bounces then and only then will we get reform. -- Free men own guns, slaves don't www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/ |
Update on machinist trainee
On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 01:46:21 -0800, Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:
"jim rozen" wrote in message ... In article , Harold and Susan Vordos says... This is why GM is now building all of its engines in china. Are you sure about the GM engines, Jim? I've never heard that, but if it's true, it's all the more appalling. Hi Harold, the reason you haven't heard that is because it isn't true. |
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