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Colchester gear: $800!!!!!!
Awl--
My buddy's 13x40 Clausing-Colchester wore itself out, needed a gear in the front carriage power feed ditty. Yeah, Clausing wants $800 for one gear, about 3.5" diam, 54 tooth. Goodgawd.... Dare I say it--but another gigantic PV?? Fortunately, my buddy makes gears, so this wasn't the biggest deal in the world--he could make 40 for $800! How he did it is pretty neat. Not having any cast iron to match the gear material, he bought an oversized gear from a local power place, turned off the teeth, redid the ID, and cut the teeth. Ackshooly not hard iffin yer familiar w/ gear cutting indexers, at least for non-exotic stuff. Pretty tricky, otherwise. Can also do them in a 4th axis in a VMC, much more straightforward. But for people not set up to cut gears, that is one whopping bill--never mind the labor involved in the tear-down/rebuild, etc. All this sorta makes me nervous about running my machines.... ---------------------------- Mr. P.V.'d formerly Droll Troll |
Cincinnati Milacron wanted $6600 for 2 gears to do metric threading on
my Cincinnati Tray-Top lathe. And only $20 for the metric plate for the QC box. Vince P.S. I still can not to metric threading Proctologically Violated©® wrote: Awl-- My buddy's 13x40 Clausing-Colchester wore itself out, needed a gear in the front carriage power feed ditty. Yeah, Clausing wants $800 for one gear, about 3.5" diam, 54 tooth. Goodgawd.... Dare I say it--but another gigantic PV?? Fortunately, my buddy makes gears, so this wasn't the biggest deal in the world--he could make 40 for $800! How he did it is pretty neat. Not having any cast iron to match the gear material, he bought an oversized gear from a local power place, turned off the teeth, redid the ID, and cut the teeth. Ackshooly not hard iffin yer familiar w/ gear cutting indexers, at least for non-exotic stuff. Pretty tricky, otherwise. Can also do them in a 4th axis in a VMC, much more straightforward. But for people not set up to cut gears, that is one whopping bill--never mind the labor involved in the tear-down/rebuild, etc. All this sorta makes me nervous about running my machines.... ---------------------------- Mr. P.V.'d formerly Droll Troll |
A ratio of 80/63 is SO close to 1.27 it is within .015 percent.
If you want to do the ratio with other gears, you nead a 20, 21 and 4 to 3 tooth combination of gears for compound gearing. You might be able to find a 21 tooth gear cheaper than a 127 tooth gear. The others needed for the 80/63 ratio should be common, or will factor out once you look at your quick change gear ratios. IOW if you already have a 21 tooth gear, you might easily be able to make up a gear train that will do the metric threads you want. I didn't spoon feed the exact combination of gears to use, since I don't know which threads you are shooting for, or how you lathe is set up, or what gears you own. But I did toss out an idea about how to do metric threading without needing a 127 tooth gear. Another combination that is not as close, uses a 47/37 ratio. That combination comes out within .027% but does not factor out to smaller gears than a 47 tooth. Pete |
"Vince Iorio" wrote in message ... Cincinnati Milacron wanted $6600 for 2 gears to do metric threading on my Cincinnati Tray-Top lathe. And only $20 for the metric plate for the QC box. Vince Do you have a mill? Index head or rotary table? If so, what's preventing you from making the gears you need for the Tray-Top?? Using a similar gear as a template, hand grind a HSS toolbit with the proper tooth form and have at it. The gears can be generated a tooth at a time, with a fly cutter. It's slow, but a very rewarding experience. You could make the gear(s) from free machining brass if necessary, then invest in the $20 metric plate for the box. You likely understand that your tool would represent a tooth, and it would form the mating sides of the teeth in the gear you'd generate. The tool would, therefore, look like a gear tooth as viewed from the side. A little tough to hand grind, but very possible to do. Been there, done that. Didn't get the T shirt, though. Harold |
On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 17:06:28 -0400, "Proctologically Violated©®"
wrote: Awl-- My buddy's 13x40 Clausing-Colchester wore itself out, needed a gear in the front carriage power feed ditty. Yeah, Clausing wants $800 for one gear, about 3.5" diam, 54 tooth. Goodgawd.... Dare I say it--but another gigantic PV?? Fortunately, my buddy makes gears, so this wasn't the biggest deal in the world--he could make 40 for $800! How he did it is pretty neat. Not having any cast iron to match the gear material, he bought an oversized gear from a local power place, turned off the teeth, redid the ID, and cut the teeth. Ackshooly not hard iffin yer familiar w/ gear cutting indexers, at least for non-exotic stuff. Pretty tricky, otherwise. Can also do them in a 4th axis in a VMC, much more straightforward. But for people not set up to cut gears, that is one whopping bill--never mind the labor involved in the tear-down/rebuild, etc. All this sorta makes me nervous about running my machines.... ---------------------------- Mr. P.V.'d formerly Droll Troll For $800, Id sell him another identical lathe. With a good gear. Gunner "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
"Gunner Asch" wrote in message ... For $800, Id sell him another identical lathe. With a good gear. Gunner Somebody should point this out to the rapists at Clausing...... Jeff |
On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 12:39:12 -0400, "Never_Enough_Tools"
wrote: "Gunner Asch" wrote in message .. . For $800, Id sell him another identical lathe. With a good gear. Gunner Somebody should point this out to the rapists at Clausing...... Jeff I dont think they have such in stock, but manufacture them as they are ordered. Doing them one at a time reallllllly adds to the cost. Gunner "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
"Gunner Asch" wrote in message ... On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 12:39:12 -0400, "Never_Enough_Tools" wrote: "Gunner Asch" wrote in message .. . For $800, Id sell him another identical lathe. With a good gear. Gunner Somebody should point this out to the rapists at Clausing...... Jeff I dont think they have such in stock, but manufacture them as they are ordered. Doing them one at a time reallllllly adds to the cost. Gunner "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner That's right. I've got a 5310 Clausing lathe that was made in 1956. I was pleasantly surprised to see how many parts of it were still in stock with the Clausing people. Yes, they're expensive. Big time. I also have made attempts to try and find new old stock parts for a Panhead Harley that was made in '56 too. Nearly nothing out there and what is available is marked up at a much higher ratio than the Clausing parts. I'm just glad the Clausing people are making an attempt to stay in business and help people keep these fine old lathes running. I would imagine if they didn't charge so much for them, they'd fold. Just my .02. Garrett Fulton |
Correct...they make the part as the requests come in.
If you ran the business, would you do it any differently? As you pointed out, at least they are supporting it. Have you tried to find a part for an older Asian lathe...good luck, you will need it. Actually this brings up a subject that I seldom see addressed. As more and more of our manufacturing goes elsewhere, the subject of supporting our manufacturing infrastructure as it gets older and wears out is going to get very interesting and expensive. We see in the manual machines that HSMers try to support by parting out old machines...well, there are just so many old machines and many of them are being shipped to China as scrap to be melted down. No company wants to carry parts inventory and many parts are such that they cannot be made one at a time. I think it will accelerate the decline of our ability to build anything. TMT |
I think I would see if I could have got a stock gear that was a little
thicker and had a smaller hole but had the correct diameter and pitch. -- Roger Shoaf If knowledge is power, and power corrupts, what does this say about the Congress? "Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in message ... Awl-- My buddy's 13x40 Clausing-Colchester wore itself out, needed a gear in the front carriage power feed ditty. Yeah, Clausing wants $800 for one gear, about 3.5" diam, 54 tooth. Goodgawd.... Dare I say it--but another gigantic PV?? Fortunately, my buddy makes gears, so this wasn't the biggest deal in the world--he could make 40 for $800! How he did it is pretty neat. Not having any cast iron to match the gear material, he bought an oversized gear from a local power place, turned off the teeth, redid the ID, and cut the teeth. Ackshooly not hard iffin yer familiar w/ gear cutting indexers, at least for non-exotic stuff. Pretty tricky, otherwise. Can also do them in a 4th axis in a VMC, much more straightforward. But for people not set up to cut gears, that is one whopping bill--never mind the labor involved in the tear-down/rebuild, etc. All this sorta makes me nervous about running my machines.... ---------------------------- Mr. P.V.'d formerly Droll Troll |
"Rewarding experience" is not the phrase I'd use--"sorta inneresting big
pita" might be more apt. But goddamm, $6600 takes the cake!! wow.... If Vince wants to sleuth this out himself, I'm sure the good people here would be a big help. If he'd rather my buddy make him a gear (or anyone else) on the cheap, email me and I'll set it up. You'll need to provide accurate dimensions/tolerances, or a print, or a sample--or, in some cases, a piece of a sample. g. Rather than grinding a tool bit, you're better off buying a gear cutter, with the right profile. But you'll need the gear indexer ditty on your BP, which is not cheap, either. Ahm no 'spert, but Boston Gear is the MSC of this sort of stuff. Sounds like the makings of a half-decent bidniss, making ones-ies/two-sies of busted gears for older machines. ---------------------------- Mr. P.V.'d formerly Droll Troll "Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message ... "Vince Iorio" wrote in message ... Cincinnati Milacron wanted $6600 for 2 gears to do metric threading on my Cincinnati Tray-Top lathe. And only $20 for the metric plate for the QC box. Vince Do you have a mill? Index head or rotary table? If so, what's preventing you from making the gears you need for the Tray-Top?? Using a similar gear as a template, hand grind a HSS toolbit with the proper tooth form and have at it. The gears can be generated a tooth at a time, with a fly cutter. It's slow, but a very rewarding experience. You could make the gear(s) from free machining brass if necessary, then invest in the $20 metric plate for the box. You likely understand that your tool would represent a tooth, and it would form the mating sides of the teeth in the gear you'd generate. The tool would, therefore, look like a gear tooth as viewed from the side. A little tough to hand grind, but very possible to do. Been there, done that. Didn't get the T shirt, though. Harold |
On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 20:52:01 -0400, "Proctologically Violated©®"
wrote: "Rewarding experience" is not the phrase I'd use--"sorta inneresting big pita" might be more apt. But goddamm, $6600 takes the cake!! wow.... If Vince wants to sleuth this out himself, I'm sure the good people here would be a big help. If he'd rather my buddy make him a gear (or anyone else) on the cheap, email me and I'll set it up. You'll need to provide accurate dimensions/tolerances, or a print, or a sample--or, in some cases, a piece of a sample. g. Rather than grinding a tool bit, you're better off buying a gear cutter, with the right profile. But you'll need the gear indexer ditty on your BP, which is not cheap, either. Ahm no 'spert, but Boston Gear is the MSC of this sort of stuff. Sounds like the makings of a half-decent bidniss, making ones-ies/two-sies of busted gears for older machines. ---------------------------- Start off with brass replacementss for all those zinc/Zemac gears from 109 and Atlas lathes that have been rotting away. GUnner Mr. P.V.'d formerly Droll Troll "Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message ... "Vince Iorio" wrote in message ... Cincinnati Milacron wanted $6600 for 2 gears to do metric threading on my Cincinnati Tray-Top lathe. And only $20 for the metric plate for the QC box. Vince Do you have a mill? Index head or rotary table? If so, what's preventing you from making the gears you need for the Tray-Top?? Using a similar gear as a template, hand grind a HSS toolbit with the proper tooth form and have at it. The gears can be generated a tooth at a time, with a fly cutter. It's slow, but a very rewarding experience. You could make the gear(s) from free machining brass if necessary, then invest in the $20 metric plate for the box. You likely understand that your tool would represent a tooth, and it would form the mating sides of the teeth in the gear you'd generate. The tool would, therefore, look like a gear tooth as viewed from the side. A little tough to hand grind, but very possible to do. Been there, done that. Didn't get the T shirt, though. Harold "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
Proctologically Violated©® wrote:
Sounds like the makings of a half-decent bidniss, making ones-ies/two-sies of busted gears for older machines. I'm starting to think along these lines. Haven't been able to find brush holders for a huge old B&D 1/2" drill, so I drew it up in CAD and am programming it now. Think I'll make a dozen sets and see if anyone else can use some. From one-off to short runs, there's probably some money to be made keeping good old tools from being recycled into cheapo new trinket tools... Jon |
Proctologically Violated©® wrote:
"Rewarding experience" is not the phrase I'd use--"sorta inneresting big pita" might be more apt. But goddamm, $6600 takes the cake!! wow.... If Vince wants to sleuth this out himself, I'm sure the good people here would be a big help. If he'd rather my buddy make him a gear (or anyone else) on the cheap, email me and I'll set it up. You'll need to provide accurate dimensions/tolerances, or a print, or a sample--or, in some cases, a piece of a sample. g. Rather than grinding a tool bit, you're better off buying a gear cutter, with the right profile. But you'll need the gear indexer ditty on your BP, which is not cheap, either. Ahm no 'spert, but Boston Gear is the MSC of this sort of stuff. Sounds like the makings of a half-decent bidniss, making ones-ies/two-sies of busted gears for older machines. ---------------------------- Mr. P.V.'d formerly Droll Troll "Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message ... I don't know how much they quote for this work, but are either EDM or waterjet practical for making onesie/ twosies gears? David |
David R. Birch wrote:
Proctologically Violated©® wrote: "Rewarding experience" is not the phrase I'd use--"sorta inneresting big pita" might be more apt. But goddamm, $6600 takes the cake!! wow.... If Vince wants to sleuth this out himself, I'm sure the good people here would be a big help. If he'd rather my buddy make him a gear (or anyone else) on the cheap, email me and I'll set it up. You'll need to provide accurate dimensions/tolerances, or a print, or a sample--or, in some cases, a piece of a sample. g. Rather than grinding a tool bit, you're better off buying a gear cutter, with the right profile. But you'll need the gear indexer ditty on your BP, which is not cheap, either. Ahm no 'spert, but Boston Gear is the MSC of this sort of stuff. Sounds like the makings of a half-decent bidniss, making ones-ies/two-sies of busted gears for older machines. ---------------------------- Mr. P.V.'d formerly Droll Troll "Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message ... I don't know how much they quote for this work, but are either EDM or waterjet practical for making onesie/ twosies gears? From what I've seen of waterjet machines, I doubt they'd be accurate enough. Although they're much more accurate than oxyacetylene, the jet diverges as it passes through the material, so you end up with a sloping edge. This was a few years ago, though - they might be better now. Chris |
David R. Birch wrote:
Proctologically Violated©® wrote: "Rewarding experience" is not the phrase I'd use--"sorta inneresting big pita" might be more apt. But goddamm, $6600 takes the cake!! wow.... If Vince wants to sleuth this out himself, I'm sure the good people here would be a big help. If he'd rather my buddy make him a gear (or anyone else) on the cheap, email me and I'll set it up. You'll need to provide accurate dimensions/tolerances, or a print, or a sample--or, in some cases, a piece of a sample. g. Rather than grinding a tool bit, you're better off buying a gear cutter, with the right profile. But you'll need the gear indexer ditty on your BP, which is not cheap, either. Ahm no 'spert, but Boston Gear is the MSC of this sort of stuff. Sounds like the makings of a half-decent bidniss, making ones-ies/two-sies of busted gears for older machines. ---------------------------- Mr. P.V.'d formerly Droll Troll "Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message ... I don't know how much they quote for this work, but are either EDM or waterjet practical for making onesie/ twosies gears? From what I've seen of waterjet machines, I doubt they'd be accurate enough. Although they're much more accurate than oxyacetylene, the jet diverges as it passes through the material, so you end up with a sloping edge. This was a few years ago, though - they might be better now. Chris |
Seems like waterjet would be ideal for short runs of gears since they
are basically flat. Here's a crazy idea... How about cutting the change gears from phenolic using a laser. Would they be tough enough? On modern CNC equipment would they just make a single gear when one is ordered or run a batch of say, 6, and save the rest for future orders? Not much material in a gear so they wouldn't take up much space to store in case another order came in next week. I would never make just one of anything if making more only used another 3 bucks worth of material and 10 bucks labor. |
"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in message ... snip--- Rather than grinding a tool bit, you're better off buying a gear cutter, with the right profile. All depends on how damned cheap you are. I'm so tight fisted I squeak when I walk. :-) You're right, of course, but not everyone wants to invest in task specific tooling. This is an easy way out. I'm one of those lucky *******s that can hand grind toolbits that work. Not too long ago I hand ground one for a spur gear--inspecting it with my trusty comparator. It was symmetrical within a thou----which pleased me no end. Gear turned out fine, although the idea sucked, so the entire project was for no good reason. Doing things like hand grinding difficult forms is what keeps your skills up. I've always taken great pride in my ability. Harold |
"daniel peterman" wrote in message ... Seems like waterjet would be ideal for short runs of gears since they are basically flat. Here's a crazy idea... How about cutting the change gears from phenolic using a laser. Would they be tough enough? On modern CNC equipment would they just make a single gear when one is ordered or run a batch of say, 6, and save the rest for future orders? Not much material in a gear so they wouldn't take up much space to store in case another order came in next week. I would never make just one of anything if making more only used another 3 bucks worth of material and 10 bucks labor. Linen based phenolic has been used for gears-----often when one must be sacrificial, so, yes, the idea would work. Don't have a clue if they could be cut by laser, though. Harold |
Tight-fisted and/or broke-assed!! dammmmm....
My in-ability to grind **** is almost equally impressive--in a perverse way, I could be proud of it as well, as it makes the fact that I get anything done at all somewhat of a miracle. :) :( Quick Q on tool grinding, in particular lathe bits: Is a Dremel an instrumental part of bit grinding? I've seen some nice bits with chip breakers, grooves, reliefs, that look like they could not have been done on a standard wheel, but I've never actually seen anyone make these. Also, I've seen custom lathe bits so perfect, no grind marks, it looks like they couldn't have been done by hand. EDM? some other way? We inherited a box-ful of these, and it's almost a shame to now scuzzy them up with our primitive alterations. ---------------------------- Mr. P.V.'d formerly Droll Troll "Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message ... "Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in message ... snip--- Rather than grinding a tool bit, you're better off buying a gear cutter, with the right profile. All depends on how damned cheap you are. I'm so tight fisted I squeak when I walk. :-) You're right, of course, but not everyone wants to invest in task specific tooling. This is an easy way out. I'm one of those lucky *******s that can hand grind toolbits that work. Not too long ago I hand ground one for a spur gear--inspecting it with my trusty comparator. It was symmetrical within a thou----which pleased me no end. Gear turned out fine, although the idea sucked, so the entire project was for no good reason. Doing things like hand grinding difficult forms is what keeps your skills up. I've always taken great pride in my ability. Harold |
"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in message ... Tight-fisted and/or broke-assed!! dammmmm.... My in-ability to grind **** is almost equally impressive--in a perverse way, I could be proud of it as well, as it makes the fact that I get anything done at all somewhat of a miracle. :) :( Quick Q on tool grinding, in particular lathe bits: Is a Dremel an instrumental part of bit grinding? In my opinion, *only* for chip breakers, and not often even then. One good place would be for a compound cutting tool, where the chip breaker changes angles. One uses serious grinding wheels and masters their application to be successful in hand grinding toolbits. Anything less simply cheats you of the learning curve--which, for some--can be really frustrating. As a result, the do anything and everything to avoid going through it. Some even resort to running carbide when it's not justified. Damned shame! I've seen some nice bits with chip breakers, grooves, reliefs, that look like they could not have been done on a standard wheel, but I've never actually seen anyone make these. I hand grind chip breakers on a pedestal grinder that is chest height, with no tool rest. The wheel becomes your reference point, so it's important that it runs dead true. For chip breakers, you use the corner(s) of the wheel, which are slightly radiused, smaller than the desired radius of the chip breaker. You control rake angle by manipulating the tool as it relates to the wheel. The side of the wheel is used for straight portions of the chip breaker. The correct tool form is ground, then the chip breaker is carefully ground to the cutting edge. It's truly an art form, one that I cherish. Such tools can also be ground using a cutter grinder, but it takes more time to make the setups than it does to do them offhand. Also, I've seen custom lathe bits so perfect, no grind marks, it looks like they couldn't have been done by hand. EDM? some other way? When I was actively machining and ground tools on a regular basis (I've never operated CNC machines and have always used HSS in conjunction with carbide--including brazed tools, not just inserts), my tools looked like that. With my years away from the machines and my advanced years, coupled with poorer eyesight and poorer reflexes, I'm not convinced I'm as good as I used to be, but I can still do it. It's not hard to grind each face without chopping it up once you get used to it, and you abandon the crazy concept of a tool rest. They're truly a PITA, although it's hard to make others understand that. We inherited a box-ful of these, and it's almost a shame to now scuzzy them up with our primitive alterations. Look at them carefully and try to emulate the grinds. It's not really hard, you just have to be serious about doing it. Keep your wheel well dressed and square, without bounce, and apply the tool such that it floats on the wheel face. Don't try to remove a lot at a time, give the wheel time to grind, which, in turn, gives you time to direct it as it relates to the wheel. You can do it. Harold |
Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:
"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in message ... snip--- Rather than grinding a tool bit, you're better off buying a gear cutter, with the right profile. All depends on how damned cheap you are. I'm so tight fisted I squeak when I walk. :-) You're right, of course, but not everyone wants to invest in task specific tooling. This is an easy way out. I'm one of those lucky *******s that can hand grind toolbits that work. Not too long ago I hand ground one for a spur gear--inspecting it with my trusty comparator. It was symmetrical within a thou----which pleased me no end. Gear turned out fine, although the idea sucked, so the entire project was for no good reason. Doing things like hand grinding difficult forms is what keeps your skills up. I've always taken great pride in my ability. Harold A person need not be cheap to tackle this . Being held up for ransom is reason enough for me to tackle some things . That and a stubborn streak I can rely on to get me to the end of the tough jobs . Never cut a gear but I sure would be learning before handing that amount over , yikes . Ken Cutt |
"Ken Cutt" wrote in message ... Harold and Susan Vordos wrote: "Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in message ... snip--- Rather than grinding a tool bit, you're better off buying a gear cutter, with the right profile. All depends on how damned cheap you are. I'm so tight fisted I squeak when I walk. :-) You're right, of course, but not everyone wants to invest in task specific tooling. This is an easy way out. I'm one of those lucky *******s that can hand grind toolbits that work. Not too long ago I hand ground one for a spur gear--inspecting it with my trusty comparator. It was symmetrical within a thou----which pleased me no end. Gear turned out fine, although the idea sucked, so the entire project was for no good reason. Doing things like hand grinding difficult forms is what keeps your skills up. I've always taken great pride in my ability. Harold A person need not be cheap to tackle this . Being held up for ransom is reason enough for me to tackle some things . That and a stubborn streak I can rely on to get me to the end of the tough jobs . Never cut a gear but I sure would be learning before handing that amount over , yikes . Ken Cutt Yep! I agree fully. I'm not fond of being screwed and often do things for myself instead of reaching for my wallet. It's worse than just the money in some instances, too. Poor workmanship and unreliable people that don't follow through. I know I can trust myself, although I may be slower than tar on a cold day when doing things I've never done before. Still, I get it done. Cutting a spur gear is no big deal--indexing is probably the most difficult part. The last one I made I was fortunate in that I could do it with an indexing head. That's not always the case. Harold |
Harold and Susan Vordos wrote: "Vince Iorio" wrote in message ... Cincinnati Milacron wanted $6600 for 2 gears to do metric threading on my Cincinnati Tray-Top lathe. And only $20 for the metric plate for the QC box. Vince Do you have a mill? Yes Index head or rotary table? Yes If so, what's preventing you from making the gears you need for the Tray-Top?? Time I am of the mind set that I can do almost anything in my shop, but I am always a little short on time. Using a similar gear as a template, hand grind a HSS toolbit with the proper tooth form and have at it. The gears can be generated a tooth at a time, with a fly cutter. It's slow, but a very rewarding experience. You could make the gear(s) from free machining brass if necessary, then invest in the $20 metric plate for the box. You likely understand that your tool would represent a tooth, and it would form the mating sides of the teeth in the gear you'd generate. The tool would, therefore, look like a gear tooth as viewed from the side. A little tough to hand grind, but very possible to do. Been there, done that. Didn't get the T shirt, though. Harold |
I wanted to do metric threading to do a "free" job for a friend. I do
have plans to make the two gears one day, but first I need to make a 127 hole indexing plate for my dividing head. And I might even have to make a raiser block for the indexing head). Has anyone ever noticed that one simple project is actually a series of increasing difficult ones? Vince Proctologically Violated©® wrote: "Rewarding experience" is not the phrase I'd use--"sorta inneresting big pita" might be more apt. But goddamm, $6600 takes the cake!! wow.... If Vince wants to sleuth this out himself, I'm sure the good people here would be a big help. If he'd rather my buddy make him a gear (or anyone else) on the cheap, email me and I'll set it up. You'll need to provide accurate dimensions/tolerances, or a print, or a sample--or, in some cases, a piece of a sample. g. Rather than grinding a tool bit, you're better off buying a gear cutter, with the right profile. But you'll need the gear indexer ditty on your BP, which is not cheap, either. Ahm no 'spert, but Boston Gear is the MSC of this sort of stuff. Sounds like the makings of a half-decent bidniss, making ones-ies/two-sies of busted gears for older machines. ---------------------------- Mr. P.V.'d formerly Droll Troll "Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message ... "Vince Iorio" wrote in message ... Cincinnati Milacron wanted $6600 for 2 gears to do metric threading on my Cincinnati Tray-Top lathe. And only $20 for the metric plate for the QC box. Vince Do you have a mill? Index head or rotary table? If so, what's preventing you from making the gears you need for the Tray-Top?? Using a similar gear as a template, hand grind a HSS toolbit with the proper tooth form and have at it. The gears can be generated a tooth at a time, with a fly cutter. It's slow, but a very rewarding experience. You could make the gear(s) from free machining brass if necessary, then invest in the $20 metric plate for the box. You likely understand that your tool would represent a tooth, and it would form the mating sides of the teeth in the gear you'd generate. The tool would, therefore, look like a gear tooth as viewed from the side. A little tough to hand grind, but very possible to do. Been there, done that. Didn't get the T shirt, though. Harold |
Another good reason in my opinion is to learn the skills to do a gear.
It won't be the last one you will need if you work with machines. ;) TMT |
On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 09:37:24 -0400, Vince Iorio
wrote: I wanted to do metric threading to do a "free" job for a friend. I do have plans to make the two gears one day, but first I need to make a 127 hole indexing plate for my dividing head. And I might even have to make a raiser block for the indexing head). Has anyone ever noticed that one simple project is actually a series of increasing difficult ones? Vince Thats Cornells Law. Gunner Proctologically Violated©® wrote: "Rewarding experience" is not the phrase I'd use--"sorta inneresting big pita" might be more apt. But goddamm, $6600 takes the cake!! wow.... If Vince wants to sleuth this out himself, I'm sure the good people here would be a big help. If he'd rather my buddy make him a gear (or anyone else) on the cheap, email me and I'll set it up. You'll need to provide accurate dimensions/tolerances, or a print, or a sample--or, in some cases, a piece of a sample. g. Rather than grinding a tool bit, you're better off buying a gear cutter, with the right profile. But you'll need the gear indexer ditty on your BP, which is not cheap, either. Ahm no 'spert, but Boston Gear is the MSC of this sort of stuff. Sounds like the makings of a half-decent bidniss, making ones-ies/two-sies of busted gears for older machines. ---------------------------- Mr. P.V.'d formerly Droll Troll "Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message ... "Vince Iorio" wrote in message ... Cincinnati Milacron wanted $6600 for 2 gears to do metric threading on my Cincinnati Tray-Top lathe. And only $20 for the metric plate for the QC box. Vince Do you have a mill? Index head or rotary table? If so, what's preventing you from making the gears you need for the Tray-Top?? Using a similar gear as a template, hand grind a HSS toolbit with the proper tooth form and have at it. The gears can be generated a tooth at a time, with a fly cutter. It's slow, but a very rewarding experience. You could make the gear(s) from free machining brass if necessary, then invest in the $20 metric plate for the box. You likely understand that your tool would represent a tooth, and it would form the mating sides of the teeth in the gear you'd generate. The tool would, therefore, look like a gear tooth as viewed from the side. A little tough to hand grind, but very possible to do. Been there, done that. Didn't get the T shirt, though. Harold "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
"gfulton" wrote in message ... "Gunner Asch" wrote in message ... On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 12:39:12 -0400, "Never_Enough_Tools" wrote: "Gunner Asch" wrote in message .. . For $800, Id sell him another identical lathe. With a good gear. Gunner Somebody should point this out to the rapists at Clausing...... Jeff I dont think they have such in stock, but manufacture them as they are ordered. Doing them one at a time reallllllly adds to the cost. Gunner "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner That's right. I've got a 5310 Clausing lathe that was made in 1956. I was pleasantly surprised to see how many parts of it were still in stock with the Clausing people. Yes, they're expensive. Big time. I also have made attempts to try and find new old stock parts for a Panhead Harley that was made in '56 too. Nearly nothing out there and what is available is marked up at a much higher ratio than the Clausing parts. I'm just glad the Clausing people are making an attempt to stay in business and help people keep these fine old lathes running. I would imagine if they didn't charge so much for them, they'd fold. Just my .02. IME, a lot of the common wear parts are actually pretty reasonable from Clausing, but maybe that's because they sell enough of them to keep the cost down while still making a decent profit. They're manual proces are also pretty reasonable (=$25) and they will sometimes sell blueprints for parts that are no longer made. Mike |
On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 09:37:24 -0400, Vince Iorio wrote:
Has anyone ever noticed that one simple project is actually a series of increasing difficult ones? CTRS - Cascading Tool Requirement Syndrome. It's not as bad as RCTRS - Recursive Cascading Tool Requirement Syndrome, where tool "A" is needed to make tool "B", but tool "B" is needed to make the tool "A". |
"Vince Iorio" wrote in message ... Harold and Susan Vordos wrote: "Vince Iorio" wrote in message ... Cincinnati Milacron wanted $6600 for 2 gears to do metric threading on my Cincinnati Tray-Top lathe. And only $20 for the metric plate for the QC box. Vince Do you have a mill? Yes Index head or rotary table? Yes If so, what's preventing you from making the gears you need for the Tray-Top?? Time Understood! :-) And if you think it's slipping away quickly now, wait until you retire. Harold |
Yep! I agree fully. I'm not fond of being screwed and often do things for myself instead of reaching for my wallet. It's worse than just the money in some instances, too. Poor workmanship and unreliable people that don't follow through. I know I can trust myself, although I may be slower than tar on a cold day when doing things I've never done before. Still, I get it done. Cutting a spur gear is no big deal--indexing is probably the most difficult part. The last one I made I was fortunate in that I could do it with an indexing head. That's not always the case. Harold One other not insignificant bonus is what a person learns by tackling anything new . The knowledge has to have a value . That and the feeling that you beat the system , every small bit helps ;-) Ken Cutt |
"Ken Cutt" wrote in message ... Yep! I agree fully. I'm not fond of being screwed and often do things for myself instead of reaching for my wallet. It's worse than just the money in some instances, too. Poor workmanship and unreliable people that don't follow through. I know I can trust myself, although I may be slower than tar on a cold day when doing things I've never done before. Still, I get it done. Cutting a spur gear is no big deal--indexing is probably the most difficult part. The last one I made I was fortunate in that I could do it with an indexing head. That's not always the case. Harold One other not insignificant bonus is what a person learns by tackling anything new . The knowledge has to have a value . That and the feeling that you beat the system , every small bit helps ;-) Ken Cutt I couldn't have said it better. Tackling the difficult is something I always encourage. Think about running a lathe. Some folks are intimidated by hand grinding toolbits, so much so that they turn to insert carbide tooling in order to avoid the learning curve. Truly a sad thing, for they're cheating themselves from the one skill that's essential to machining, the ability to generate cutting tools, and to know when they aren't proper, and why. I can't think of one thing that will set a person free more than that ability, when manual machining is involved. I rarely allow myself to be in a position where I'm at the mercy of others. In order to live that life style, you must have incredible will power and confidence. I have both, and they've served me well. Too bad I didn't have the foresight to get an education, so they could have served me even better. sigh!~ Ah well, life has been good, and I can't complain. Harold |
Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:
snip Too bad I didn't have the foresight to get an education, so they could have served me even better. sigh!~ Ah well, life has been good, and I can't complain. Harold Harold, Though others got the assembly line style of education, I rather think you got just as good if not better and more practical, though seldom recognized as such, an education. You just assembled yours in smaller bites and spread it out over many more years. Never denigrate what has shown itself to be of value. Got mine the same way. George Vigneron |
snip
Fortunately, my buddy makes gears, so this wasn't the biggest deal in the world--he could make 40 for $800! snip In case anyone wants to try it, I suggest the book "gears and gear cutting" by ivan law. Good intro to involute and cycloid gears both inch and metric as well as how to cut. See: http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...434453-3523639 This is the UK amazon. You can buy in the US from Powells see http://www.powells.com/ or you might try the US amazon. also see http://www.alanstepney.info/page89.html item #17 I have had good luck using 6061 T6 aluminium and formica/micarta for change gears. This appears to be very light duty/intermitant use, esp. for the home shop machininst. |
There is another way to do this. there are several sets of gears
within the normal range of the dividing heads that will give a very close approximation of 1.27:1 which are close enough for reasonable length threads. I can dig this out if you are interested. On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 09:37:24 -0400, Vince Iorio wrote: I wanted to do metric threading to do a "free" job for a friend. I do have plans to make the two gears one day, but first I need to make a 127 hole indexing plate for my dividing head. And I might even have to make a raiser block for the indexing head). Has anyone ever noticed that one simple project is actually a series of increasing difficult ones? Vince Proctologically Violated©® wrote: "Rewarding experience" is not the phrase I'd use--"sorta inneresting big pita" might be more apt. But goddamm, $6600 takes the cake!! wow.... If Vince wants to sleuth this out himself, I'm sure the good people here would be a big help. If he'd rather my buddy make him a gear (or anyone else) on the cheap, email me and I'll set it up. You'll need to provide accurate dimensions/tolerances, or a print, or a sample--or, in some cases, a piece of a sample. g. Rather than grinding a tool bit, you're better off buying a gear cutter, with the right profile. But you'll need the gear indexer ditty on your BP, which is not cheap, either. Ahm no 'spert, but Boston Gear is the MSC of this sort of stuff. Sounds like the makings of a half-decent bidniss, making ones-ies/two-sies of busted gears for older machines. ---------------------------- Mr. P.V.'d formerly Droll Troll "Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message ... "Vince Iorio" wrote in message ... Cincinnati Milacron wanted $6600 for 2 gears to do metric threading on my Cincinnati Tray-Top lathe. And only $20 for the metric plate for the QC box. Vince Do you have a mill? Index head or rotary table? If so, what's preventing you from making the gears you need for the Tray-Top?? Using a similar gear as a template, hand grind a HSS toolbit with the proper tooth form and have at it. The gears can be generated a tooth at a time, with a fly cutter. It's slow, but a very rewarding experience. You could make the gear(s) from free machining brass if necessary, then invest in the $20 metric plate for the box. You likely understand that your tool would represent a tooth, and it would form the mating sides of the teeth in the gear you'd generate. The tool would, therefore, look like a gear tooth as viewed from the side. A little tough to hand grind, but very possible to do. Been there, done that. Didn't get the T shirt, though. Harold |
On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 23:44:49 -0400, "Proctologically Violated©®"
wrote: snip Also, I've seen custom lathe bits so perfect, no grind marks, it looks like they couldn't have been done by hand. EDM? some other way? We inherited a box-ful of these, and it's almost a shame to now scuzzy them up with our primitive alterations. snip see our website at http://www.mcduffee-associates.us Go to the craft maching section and look at the grinding fixtures we made for our baldor style grinder. For a super finish we use a fine grit disk on the disk sander with the same fixtures. We can put a mirror finish on the tools with a 220 grit disk. If you will get a blue nylon brisle abrasive brush and mount it in your drill press, you can do a fantastic job of honing the tool edges. Takes longer to set up than to do ten tools. Biggest advantage of using the fistures/gages is repeatability. Our first term students were able to get "line out" fit on even acme thread tools after a few tries. Don't have any pictures on the site but we used a 19.95 harbor freight pencil air grinder with the appropriate tools. Works real well for sharpening taps. For boring we found grinding "hook" in the tool was better than grinding half of the tool away to get it on center [of the boring bar]. |
"George" wrote in message ... Harold and Susan Vordos wrote: snip Too bad I didn't have the foresight to get an education, so they could have served me even better. sigh!~ Ah well, life has been good, and I can't complain. Harold Harold, Though others got the assembly line style of education, I rather think you got just as good if not better and more practical, though seldom recognized as such, an education. You just assembled yours in smaller bites and spread it out over many more years. Never denigrate what has shown itself to be of value. Got mine the same way. George Vigneron George, True, I suppose. Problem is it's hard to sell the school of hard knocks to a prospective employer, very unlike conditions when I was a young lad. I started my machining career in a missile facility, in which several of the engineers had no degree, but could do the work. I'm of the opinion that such people would find it impossible to find employment in that capacity in today's environment. The place I feel I'm woefully lacking is in general education. I'm not well rounded, and I feel it shows. I was a bit of a mule as a kid, paying attention only to things that interested me. As a result, I've never learned the art of learning about things that may have an affect on my life, but I find boring. Politics, for one. Had I been "forced" to learn to learn, maybe I'd be better rounded. The forcing didn't work in my early school years--at which time I did nothing. I have no recollection of hauling books home. I was tested when I was in the 5th grade because the teacher felt I wasn't able to learn. The results were shocking----for I was found to be performing at a 9th grade level. I was lucky. I could pretty much sleep through my classes and still get passing grades (note I didn't say good grades). Only when I got into high school and could choose things that held my interest did I do good, and then only in the classes I chose. Truth be known, in my case, it's a personal problem that resulted in my poor education. I fault only myself, not the system. But then, as I said, life is good! :-) Harold |
"F. George McDuffee" wrote in message ... There is another way to do this. there are several sets of gears within the normal range of the dividing heads that will give a very close approximation of 1.27:1 which are close enough for reasonable length threads. I can dig this out if you are interested. While it may be "close", I'm of the opinion that such threads are a horrible compromise. Under loading, only a tiny proportion of the thread is in intimate contact, with the balance of them in clear air. If you horse the fastener, you get a cascading collapse of the thread, possibly leading to complete failure. I recommend against such threads if there's a load involved, or if failure can result in injury or damage. Harold |
Thanks for the offer, but I bought a DRO last year and making a 127 hole
plate will be easy with it. Well, almost easy, the automatic bolt hole function only goes up to 99 holes. I'll generate a table in excel and manual make the plate. I thought of making two rows so the holes are not two close together. Vince F. George McDuffee wrote: There is another way to do this. there are several sets of gears within the normal range of the dividing heads that will give a very close approximation of 1.27:1 which are close enough for reasonable length threads. I can dig this out if you are interested. On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 09:37:24 -0400, Vince Iorio wrote: I wanted to do metric threading to do a "free" job for a friend. I do have plans to make the two gears one day, but first I need to make a 127 hole indexing plate for my dividing head. And I might even have to make a raiser block for the indexing head). Has anyone ever noticed that one simple project is actually a series of increasing difficult ones? Vince Proctologically Violated©® wrote: "Rewarding experience" is not the phrase I'd use--"sorta inneresting big pita" might be more apt. But goddamm, $6600 takes the cake!! wow.... If Vince wants to sleuth this out himself, I'm sure the good people here would be a big help. If he'd rather my buddy make him a gear (or anyone else) on the cheap, email me and I'll set it up. You'll need to provide accurate dimensions/tolerances, or a print, or a sample--or, in some cases, a piece of a sample. g. Rather than grinding a tool bit, you're better off buying a gear cutter, with the right profile. But you'll need the gear indexer ditty on your BP, which is not cheap, either. Ahm no 'spert, but Boston Gear is the MSC of this sort of stuff. Sounds like the makings of a half-decent bidniss, making ones-ies/two-sies of busted gears for older machines. ---------------------------- Mr. P.V.'d formerly Droll Troll "Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message ... "Vince Iorio" wrote in message ... Cincinnati Milacron wanted $6600 for 2 gears to do metric threading on my Cincinnati Tray-Top lathe. And only $20 for the metric plate for the QC box. Vince Do you have a mill? Index head or rotary table? If so, what's preventing you from making the gears you need for the Tray-Top?? Using a similar gear as a template, hand grind a HSS toolbit with the proper tooth form and have at it. The gears can be generated a tooth at a time, with a fly cutter. It's slow, but a very rewarding experience. You could make the gear(s) from free machining brass if necessary, then invest in the $20 metric plate for the box. You likely understand that your tool would represent a tooth, and it would form the mating sides of the teeth in the gear you'd generate. The tool would, therefore, look like a gear tooth as viewed from the side. A little tough to hand grind, but very possible to do. Been there, done that. Didn't get the T shirt, though. Harold |
You may have an unexpected problem since 127 is an odd number and can not be
evenly divided into two circles. One circle will have a wide gap and the other will have two holes 360/127 degrees apart. It seems to me like the thing to do is just make the hole circle as large as possible. Don Young "Vince Iorio" wrote in message ... Thanks for the offer, but I bought a DRO last year and making a 127 hole plate will be easy with it. Well, almost easy, the automatic bolt hole function only goes up to 99 holes. I'll generate a table in excel and manual make the plate. I thought of making two rows so the holes are not two close together. Vince |
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