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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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10hp RPC runs Airco Mig just hunky dory
Ive got a mint Airco PhaseArc 350 mig welder, which is a 3phase
machine so havent been able to run it here at the homestead. When I had the warehouse, I was able to use it down there because there was 3ph. Hating to have machines taking up space that I cant use, I decided to see if it would run off my current 5hp RPC. To make a long story short..It wouldnt. (PRC is Rotary Phase Converter btw), which is basicly nothing more than a 3ph motor spun up to speed in some fashion, and then it will run on single phase 220, and it generates the 3rd leg all by itself, allowing you to hook up 3 phase industrial type equipment to it. I had a brand new Marathon Elect 10hp 3450rpm motor kicking around so I decided to breadboard it up into a bigger RPC and see if it would run the Airco. Getting it up to speed was the problem, as I couldnt spin it fast enough with a rope wrapped around the shaft, so micky moused up a 1/2hp 110vt 3450 moter, pulley and flat belt to spin the big motors shaft directly, before applying single phase power to it. Which worked just fine. God that big 10hp motor is loud when it runs....I could hear it 200 yrs away, Of course..bolting it to a pair of I beams, then sitting loose on the top of my welding bench turned the bench into a sounding board....aaaaack!! Anyways...plugging the Airco mig into the impromptu RPC. I found the motor itself was idaling at about 18 amps on each input leg, and the output legs generate 240, 2399, and 233 volts across the output legs, with the manufactured leg provideing 233 volts. With the Airco turned on, simply ideling, current went up to about 22 amps per leg, and here is the funny part...at 25 volts, burning .45 DualSheild, with 150 amps indicated on the welder, total current draw only went up to 28 amps, raising the voltage to its top 35 volts...far far into the OH **** spray transfer mode, only raised the total amps to 35 with an indicated 250 amps of weld current. Chuckle..burning that hot was like using a spray gun, the weld looked like it was composed of nothing but tiny ball bearings, and had absolutly no simularity to a weld at all. It was a sponge. So, I showed that I can run a decent sized 3 phase industrial type machine on single phase power, which in this case was the spare electric dryer outlet, fused at 40 amps, run into a 50' 6/3 extension cord out to the welding area (which is on its own 60 amp circuit), by making up a simply rpc. I think however..Ill start looking for a 1725 rpm 10hp motor , as the noise and the air from the fan itself is like a hurricane, at 3450 rpm Gunner "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
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On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 18:31:24 GMT, Gunner Asch
wrote: (snip) So, I showed that I can run a decent sized 3 phase industrial type machine on single phase power, which in this case was the spare electric dryer outlet, fused at 40 amps, run into a 50' 6/3 extension cord out to the welding area (which is on its own 60 amp circuit), by making up a simply rpc. Cool! Does it seem to run any smoother than a comparably-sized single-phase machine -- as perhaps your Dan MIG? |
#3
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On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 16:35:00 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote: On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 18:31:24 GMT, Gunner Asch wrote: (snip) So, I showed that I can run a decent sized 3 phase industrial type machine on single phase power, which in this case was the spare electric dryer outlet, fused at 40 amps, run into a 50' 6/3 extension cord out to the welding area (which is on its own 60 amp circuit), by making up a simply rpc. Cool! Does it seem to run any smoother than a comparably-sized single-phase machine -- as perhaps your Dan MIG? Lord yes. Down at the 18-22 volt range..its like welding with light. Hardly any sound other than a faint hiss/crackle. I was wondering if I was getting any penetration at all, and sectioned a couple welds. Nice and deep with 75/25 gas. Ill have to try this with Co2 next. Gunner "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
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On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 04:58:54 GMT, Gunner Asch
wrote: On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 16:35:00 -0500, Don Foreman wrote: On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 18:31:24 GMT, Gunner Asch wrote: Does it seem to run any smoother than a comparably-sized single-phase machine -- as perhaps your Dan MIG? Lord yes. Down at the 18-22 volt range..its like welding with light. Hardly any sound other than a faint hiss/crackle. I was wondering if I was getting any penetration at all, and sectioned a couple welds. Nice and deep with 75/25 gas. Ill have to try this with Co2 next. Gunner Sweet! Good thing I'm yonder distant. If I tried it I'd surely want one like it. I'll stoicly mush on with what I have, shrug, sigh...oh poor me... |
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On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 01:26:08 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote: On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 04:58:54 GMT, Gunner Asch wrote: On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 16:35:00 -0500, Don Foreman wrote: On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 18:31:24 GMT, Gunner Asch wrote: Does it seem to run any smoother than a comparably-sized single-phase machine -- as perhaps your Dan MIG? Lord yes. Down at the 18-22 volt range..its like welding with light. Hardly any sound other than a faint hiss/crackle. I was wondering if I was getting any penetration at all, and sectioned a couple welds. Nice and deep with 75/25 gas. Ill have to try this with Co2 next. Gunner Sweet! Good thing I'm yonder distant. If I tried it I'd surely want one like it. I'll stoicly mush on with what I have, shrug, sigh...oh poor me... ROAD TRIP!!!!!!!!!! For you and Wayne Cook both. Gunner, from the middle of his stacks of Stuff. "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
#6
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Roadtrip for Gunner - driving a big semi - filled with racks of goodies... :-)
IF only the lottery would deliver... Martin Martin Eastburn @ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net NRA LOH, NRA Life NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder Gunner Asch wrote: On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 01:26:08 -0500, Don Foreman wrote: On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 04:58:54 GMT, Gunner Asch wrote: On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 16:35:00 -0500, Don Foreman wrote: On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 18:31:24 GMT, Gunner Asch wrote: Does it seem to run any smoother than a comparably-sized single-phase machine -- as perhaps your Dan MIG? Lord yes. Down at the 18-22 volt range..its like welding with light. Hardly any sound other than a faint hiss/crackle. I was wondering if I was getting any penetration at all, and sectioned a couple welds. Nice and deep with 75/25 gas. Ill have to try this with Co2 next. Gunner Sweet! Good thing I'm yonder distant. If I tried it I'd surely want one like it. I'll stoicly mush on with what I have, shrug, sigh...oh poor me... ROAD TRIP!!!!!!!!!! For you and Wayne Cook both. Gunner, from the middle of his stacks of Stuff. "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
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Gunner Asch wrote:
I had a brand new Marathon Elect 10hp 3450rpm motor kicking around so I decided to breadboard it up into a bigger RPC and see if it would run the Airco. Getting it up to speed was the problem, as I couldnt spin it fast enough with a rope wrapped around the shaft, so micky moused up a 1/2hp 110vt 3450 moter, pulley and flat belt to spin the big motors shaft directly, before applying single phase power to it. Which worked just fine. God that big 10hp motor is loud when it runs....I could hear it 200 yrs away, Of course..bolting it to a pair of I beams, then sitting loose on the top of my welding bench turned the bench into a sounding board....aaaaack!! I bet if you worked on it you could get that idler to run a lot quieter. Make the feet *right* so nothing is twisted, nothing is loose, everything's just solid and no teeny warps. Then rubber-mount the whole bidness. I bet that would knock off at least 15 dB right there. A little enclosure would help a lot too. GWE |
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On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 14:59:35 -0700, Grant Erwin
wrote: Gunner Asch wrote: I had a brand new Marathon Elect 10hp 3450rpm motor kicking around so I decided to breadboard it up into a bigger RPC and see if it would run the Airco. Getting it up to speed was the problem, as I couldnt spin it fast enough with a rope wrapped around the shaft, so micky moused up a 1/2hp 110vt 3450 moter, pulley and flat belt to spin the big motors shaft directly, before applying single phase power to it. Which worked just fine. God that big 10hp motor is loud when it runs....I could hear it 200 yrs away, Of course..bolting it to a pair of I beams, then sitting loose on the top of my welding bench turned the bench into a sounding board....aaaaack!! I bet if you worked on it you could get that idler to run a lot quieter. Make the feet *right* so nothing is twisted, nothing is loose, everything's just solid and no teeny warps. Then rubber-mount the whole bidness. I bet that would knock off at least 15 dB right there. A little enclosure would help a lot too. GWE I think you could isolate vibration OK, but a 3450 RPM fan makes a hell of a racket that would be more of a challenge. It could be done with an acoustic enclosure, but I bet it'd be a lot easier (especially for Gunner) to scrounge up a 1725 RPM motor. |
#9
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On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 17:30:23 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote: On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 14:59:35 -0700, Grant Erwin wrote: Gunner Asch wrote: I had a brand new Marathon Elect 10hp 3450rpm motor kicking around so I decided to breadboard it up into a bigger RPC and see if it would run the Airco. Getting it up to speed was the problem, as I couldnt spin it fast enough with a rope wrapped around the shaft, so micky moused up a 1/2hp 110vt 3450 moter, pulley and flat belt to spin the big motors shaft directly, before applying single phase power to it. Which worked just fine. God that big 10hp motor is loud when it runs....I could hear it 200 yrs away, Of course..bolting it to a pair of I beams, then sitting loose on the top of my welding bench turned the bench into a sounding board....aaaaack!! I bet if you worked on it you could get that idler to run a lot quieter. Make the feet *right* so nothing is twisted, nothing is loose, everything's just solid and no teeny warps. Then rubber-mount the whole bidness. I bet that would knock off at least 15 dB right there. A little enclosure would help a lot too. GWE I think you could isolate vibration OK, but a 3450 RPM fan makes a hell of a racket that would be more of a challenge. It could be done with an acoustic enclosure, but I bet it'd be a lot easier (especially for Gunner) to scrounge up a 1725 RPM motor. Ayup..it really heavy on fan noise. The wind coming off the fan can be felt at over 20 feet. It was so strong, I had to put up a wind shield so it wouldnt keep blowing my sheilding gas away...10 feet away. Gunner "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
#10
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On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 14:59:35 -0700, Grant Erwin
wrote: Gunner Asch wrote: I had a brand new Marathon Elect 10hp 3450rpm motor kicking around so I decided to breadboard it up into a bigger RPC and see if it would run the Airco. Getting it up to speed was the problem, as I couldnt spin it fast enough with a rope wrapped around the shaft, so micky moused up a 1/2hp 110vt 3450 moter, pulley and flat belt to spin the big motors shaft directly, before applying single phase power to it. Which worked just fine. God that big 10hp motor is loud when it runs....I could hear it 200 yrs away, Of course..bolting it to a pair of I beams, then sitting loose on the top of my welding bench turned the bench into a sounding board....aaaaack!! I bet if you worked on it you could get that idler to run a lot quieter. Make the feet *right* so nothing is twisted, nothing is loose, everything's just solid and no teeny warps. Then rubber-mount the whole bidness. I bet that would knock off at least 15 dB right there. A little enclosure would help a lot too. GWE Im planning on building this into a "unit", Electrical subpanel, etc. Ive got a Clausing 1501 15x48 lathe I havent been able to do much with, as it has a 7.5hp motor on it, which the 5hp will start..but it doesnt like it very much, least of all starting it in high gear. I simply stuck this together in the most expedious fashion, just to see if it would run the welder well enough to bother going any further. LOL...since I let out the magic smoke on the commercial RPC..my shop has been running on a 5hp motor sitting in the dirt in the middle of the shop with a dryer cord feeding it and a chunk of 12/4 running to the distro panal. Rope start and plug it in quick before the motor slows down. But it worked for an expedient. Gunner "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
#11
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On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 14:59:35 -0700, Grant Erwin
wrote: Gunner Asch wrote: I had a brand new Marathon Elect 10hp 3450rpm motor kicking around so I decided to breadboard it up into a bigger RPC and see if it would run the Airco. Getting it up to speed was the problem, as I couldnt spin it fast enough with a rope wrapped around the shaft, so micky moused up a 1/2hp 110vt 3450 moter, pulley and flat belt to spin the big motors shaft directly, before applying single phase power to it. Which worked just fine. God that big 10hp motor is loud when it runs....I could hear it 200 yrs away, Of course..bolting it to a pair of I beams, then sitting loose on the top of my welding bench turned the bench into a sounding board....aaaaack!! I bet if you worked on it you could get that idler to run a lot quieter. Make the feet *right* so nothing is twisted, nothing is loose, everything's just solid and no teeny warps. Then rubber-mount the whole bidness. I bet that would knock off at least 15 dB right there. A little enclosure would help a lot too. GWE Is there any advantage of one rpm motor or the other? Does the slip stream angle of the dangle hodendragon perform better than the lowslide undertow of the invictus bordergary? G Gunner "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
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On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 05:26:19 GMT, Gunner Asch
wrote: Is there any advantage of one rpm motor or the other? Does the slip stream angle of the dangle hodendragon perform better than the lowslide undertow of the invictus bordergary? Don't patronize us experts, asshole! G From what I've read, it makes little difference. There is some opinion that lower speed motors work better as idlers though I've no idea why that might be so. They're sure as hell less noisy. I still don't fully understand how an RPC really works. Fitch admits that he doesn't either though I've no doubt that he could if he wanted to bad enough. We found some academic papers that purported to analyze them but the math swamp was way thicker than we've had the ambition to journey thru so far. Jerry did some very interesting research with good instrumentation and a shop-made eddy-current brake that worked really well, had some findings contrary to "informed opinion". Oh well! His apparati are now dismantled and up for grabs for the quick, dumpster-destined otherwise. |
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On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 01:51:22 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote: On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 05:26:19 GMT, Gunner Asch wrote: Is there any advantage of one rpm motor or the other? Does the slip stream angle of the dangle hodendragon perform better than the lowslide undertow of the invictus bordergary? Don't patronize us experts, asshole! G From what I've read, it makes little difference. There is some opinion that lower speed motors work better as idlers though I've no idea why that might be so. They're sure as hell less noisy. I still don't fully understand how an RPC really works. Fitch admits that he doesn't either though I've no doubt that he could if he wanted to bad enough. We found some academic papers that purported to analyze them but the math swamp was way thicker than we've had the ambition to journey thru so far. Jerry did some very interesting research with good instrumentation and a shop-made eddy-current brake that worked really well, had some findings contrary to "informed opinion". Oh well! His apparati are now dismantled and up for grabs for the quick, dumpster-destined otherwise. Ill have to hunt around for a 17xx motor I think. It will be easier to set up and while welding really isnt a Zen thing exactly...it would be far more pleasent when not doing it next to a running GE Turbofan. Gunner "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
#14
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In article , Gunner Asch says...
... so micky moused up a 1/2hp 110vt 3450 moter, pulley and flat belt to spin the big motors shaft directly, before applying single phase power to it. That's a terrible idea, it'll never work. :^) Anyways...plugging the Airco mig into the impromptu RPC. I found the motor itself was idaling at about 18 amps on each input leg, and the output legs generate 240, 2399, and 233 volts across the output legs, with the manufactured leg provideing 233 volts. Hmm. Not sure about the 2.3 kV leg there.... With the Airco turned on, simply ideling, current went up to about 22 amps per leg, and here is the funny part...at 25 volts, burning .45 DualSheild, with 150 amps indicated on the welder, total current draw only went up to 28 amps, raising the voltage to its top 35 volts...far far into the OH **** spray transfer mode, only raised the total amps to 35 with an indicated 250 amps of weld current. One thing you have to realize is that the amperage you are measuring on the legs (probably via an amp-clamp meter, right?) is mostly reactive power when you are not loading the idler. When you load it by welding, the power factor is coming closer to one, which means it's spinning your meter more. The idea is that the amp clamp does a poor job of showing the real power draw, because the unloaded condition has such a low power factor. The good news is, the 18 amps you measure with it unloaded is mostly reactive current. You are probably drawing something like 500 watts total when it's not loaded, if my stone age converter is a guide. Jim -- ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
#15
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On 12 Sep 2005 16:36:58 -0700, jim rozen
wrote: In article , Gunner Asch says... ... so micky moused up a 1/2hp 110vt 3450 moter, pulley and flat belt to spin the big motors shaft directly, before applying single phase power to it. That's a terrible idea, it'll never work. :^) Anyways...plugging the Airco mig into the impromptu RPC. I found the motor itself was idaling at about 18 amps on each input leg, and the output legs generate 240, 2399, and 233 volts across the output legs, with the manufactured leg provideing 233 volts. Hmm. Not sure about the 2.3 kV leg there.... Cold fusion I think. Or sunspots. Or even a typo. Blush. With the Airco turned on, simply ideling, current went up to about 22 amps per leg, and here is the funny part...at 25 volts, burning .45 DualSheild, with 150 amps indicated on the welder, total current draw only went up to 28 amps, raising the voltage to its top 35 volts...far far into the OH **** spray transfer mode, only raised the total amps to 35 with an indicated 250 amps of weld current. One thing you have to realize is that the amperage you are measuring on the legs (probably via an amp-clamp meter, right?) is mostly reactive power when you are not loading the idler. When you load it by welding, the power factor is coming closer to one, which means it's spinning your meter more. The idea is that the amp clamp does a poor job of showing the real power draw, because the unloaded condition has such a low power factor. The good news is, the 18 amps you measure with it unloaded is mostly reactive current. You are probably drawing something like 500 watts total when it's not loaded, if my stone age converter is a guide. Jim Cool!! I try to follow the various RPC threads...but when it starts geting into the reactive/inductive techno stuff...my eyes glaze. Im a screw driver type. Shrug Gunner "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
#16
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According to Gunner Asch :
On 12 Sep 2005 16:36:58 -0700, jim rozen wrote: [ ... ] The good news is, the 18 amps you measure with it unloaded is mostly reactive current. You are probably drawing something like 500 watts total when it's not loaded, if my stone age converter is a guide. Jim Cool!! I try to follow the various RPC threads...but when it starts geting into the reactive/inductive techno stuff...my eyes glaze. Im a screw driver type. Shrug You can reduce that unloaded current (as seen on your clamp-on meter) by hooking a power factor compensation capacitor across the line terminals at the input to your RPC. They need to be AC run caps, not motor starting caps (just as tuning caps need to be). Just start the idler up, measure the current in one of the legs (both should be the same, unless you've got a leakage path to ground somewhere), hook in a capacitor, re-measure, add more and repeat until your current starts going back up. At that point, remove the last capacitor. I would guess that you should prepare to go up in perhaps 20-50 uF steps for the size of RPC which you are talking about. Remember -- the clamp-on meter needs to be between the breaker and the caps, not between the caps and the motor. This will reduce the current seen by your wires and your circuit breakers. It won't have much effect on your power meter -- unless you are on a demand-metered service, in which case you would not be needing a RPC, as you would already have three phase. Enjoy, DoN. -- Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
#17
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"Gunner Asch" wrote in message ... Ive got a mint Airco PhaseArc 350 mig welder, which is a 3phase machine so havent been able to run it here at the homestead. When I had the warehouse, I was able to use it down there because there was 3ph. Hating to have machines taking up space that I cant use, I decided to see if it would run off my current 5hp RPC. To make a long story short..It wouldnt. (PRC is Rotary Phase Converter btw), which is basicly nothing more than a 3ph motor spun up to speed in some fashion, and then it will run on single phase 220, and it generates the 3rd leg all by itself, allowing you to hook up 3 phase industrial type equipment to it. I had a brand new Marathon Elect 10hp 3450rpm motor kicking around so I decided to breadboard it up into a bigger RPC and see if it would run the Airco. Getting it up to speed was the problem, as I couldnt spin it fast enough with a rope wrapped around the shaft, so micky moused up a 1/2hp 110vt 3450 moter, pulley and flat belt to spin the big motors shaft directly, before applying single phase power to it. Which worked just fine. God that big 10hp motor is loud when it runs....I could hear it 200 yrs away, Of course..bolting it to a pair of I beams, then sitting loose on the top of my welding bench turned the bench into a sounding board....aaaaack!! Anyways...plugging the Airco mig into the impromptu RPC. I found the motor itself was idaling at about 18 amps on each input leg, and the output legs generate 240, 2399, and 233 volts across the output legs, with the manufactured leg provideing 233 volts. With the Airco turned on, simply ideling, current went up to about 22 amps per leg, and here is the funny part...at 25 volts, burning .45 DualSheild, with 150 amps indicated on the welder, total current draw only went up to 28 amps, raising the voltage to its top 35 volts...far far into the OH **** spray transfer mode, only raised the total amps to 35 with an indicated 250 amps of weld current. Chuckle..burning that hot was like using a spray gun, the weld looked like it was composed of nothing but tiny ball bearings, and had absolutly no simularity to a weld at all. It was a sponge. So, I showed that I can run a decent sized 3 phase industrial type machine on single phase power, which in this case was the spare electric dryer outlet, fused at 40 amps, run into a 50' 6/3 extension cord out to the welding area (which is on its own 60 amp circuit), by making up a simply rpc. I think however..Ill start looking for a 1725 rpm 10hp motor , as the noise and the air from the fan itself is like a hurricane, at 3450 rpm Gunner I passed up a real nice older airco tig welder because I wasn't sure if I could run it with my rotary phase converter. I have a miller double roller wire feed unit that would have fit on it perfect. Next time I won't let it get away. Richard W. |
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On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 17:43:52 -0700, "Richard W."
wrote: I passed up a real nice older airco tig welder because I wasn't sure if I could run it with my rotary phase converter. I have a miller double roller wire feed unit that would have fit on it perfect. Next time I won't let it get away. Old copper-iron (not inverter type) TIG machines draw significantly more current (at given amperage rating) than MIG machines do. I think you'd need at least 20 HP worth of idler to run a TIG at 250 amps. |
#19
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On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 17:43:52 -0700, "Richard W."
wrote: "Gunner Asch" wrote in message .. . Ive got a mint Airco PhaseArc 350 mig welder, which is a 3phase machine so havent been able to run it here at the homestead. When I had the warehouse, I was able to use it down there because there was 3ph. Hating to have machines taking up space that I cant use, I decided to see if it would run off my current 5hp RPC. To make a long story short..It wouldnt. (PRC is Rotary Phase Converter btw), which is basicly nothing more than a 3ph motor spun up to speed in some fashion, and then it will run on single phase 220, and it generates the 3rd leg all by itself, allowing you to hook up 3 phase industrial type equipment to it. I had a brand new Marathon Elect 10hp 3450rpm motor kicking around so I decided to breadboard it up into a bigger RPC and see if it would run the Airco. Getting it up to speed was the problem, as I couldnt spin it fast enough with a rope wrapped around the shaft, so micky moused up a 1/2hp 110vt 3450 moter, pulley and flat belt to spin the big motors shaft directly, before applying single phase power to it. Which worked just fine. God that big 10hp motor is loud when it runs....I could hear it 200 yrs away, Of course..bolting it to a pair of I beams, then sitting loose on the top of my welding bench turned the bench into a sounding board....aaaaack!! Anyways...plugging the Airco mig into the impromptu RPC. I found the motor itself was idaling at about 18 amps on each input leg, and the output legs generate 240, 2399, and 233 volts across the output legs, with the manufactured leg provideing 233 volts. With the Airco turned on, simply ideling, current went up to about 22 amps per leg, and here is the funny part...at 25 volts, burning .45 DualSheild, with 150 amps indicated on the welder, total current draw only went up to 28 amps, raising the voltage to its top 35 volts...far far into the OH **** spray transfer mode, only raised the total amps to 35 with an indicated 250 amps of weld current. Chuckle..burning that hot was like using a spray gun, the weld looked like it was composed of nothing but tiny ball bearings, and had absolutly no simularity to a weld at all. It was a sponge. So, I showed that I can run a decent sized 3 phase industrial type machine on single phase power, which in this case was the spare electric dryer outlet, fused at 40 amps, run into a 50' 6/3 extension cord out to the welding area (which is on its own 60 amp circuit), by making up a simply rpc. I think however..Ill start looking for a 1725 rpm 10hp motor , as the noise and the air from the fan itself is like a hurricane, at 3450 rpm Gunner I passed up a real nice older airco tig welder because I wasn't sure if I could run it with my rotary phase converter. I have a miller double roller wire feed unit that would have fit on it perfect. Next time I won't let it get away. Richard W. Thats why I posted it to both rcm and the welding one. The subject has been a pretty regular one on RCM..but I figure some of the welding folks may have been new to the idea. 10hp should be big enough to run a fair sized TIG or stick welder. Hummmmm maybe someone will come take the Hobart Cybertig 2 off my hands now. Good machine, 700 amps top end of programable DC Stuff. Includes a plasma torch and gas console. Needs a pedal though. 10pin hobart. Best offer. Central California, on a cart with flat tires. G But it does run and well. Cheap..really cheap. Gunner "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
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On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 05:13:07 GMT, Gunner Asch
wrote: On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 17:43:52 -0700, "Richard W." wrote: I passed up a real nice older airco tig welder because I wasn't sure if I could run it with my rotary phase converter. I have a miller double roller wire feed unit that would have fit on it perfect. Next time I won't let it get away. Richard W. Thats why I posted it to both rcm and the welding one. The subject has been a pretty regular one on RCM..but I figure some of the welding folks may have been new to the idea. 10hp should be big enough to run a fair sized TIG or stick welder. Hummmmm maybe someone will come take the Hobart Cybertig 2 off my hands now. Good machine, 700 amps top end of programable DC Stuff. Includes a plasma torch and gas console. Needs a pedal though. 10pin hobart. Best offer. Central California, on a cart with flat tires. G But it does run and well. Cheap..really cheap. Damn. Gunner when are you going to get that matter transporter working. If I had a way of getting it here I would take that Cybertig. Wayne Cook Shamrock, TX http://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm |
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When working for SLB we always kept our fingers that the labs were working
on a transport to beam us here and there. Flying for 14 or 16 hours at a time was a real pain simply to fix a head to think a way and fix a problem.. then fly back. Customer support first class for them, back of the plane for us. :-) The other want - was a hit man - but that was easier but never happened either! Martin Martin Eastburn @ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net NRA LOH, NRA Life NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder Wayne Cook wrote: On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 05:13:07 GMT, Gunner Asch wrote: On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 17:43:52 -0700, "Richard W." wrote: I passed up a real nice older airco tig welder because I wasn't sure if I could run it with my rotary phase converter. I have a miller double roller wire feed unit that would have fit on it perfect. Next time I won't let it get away. Richard W. Thats why I posted it to both rcm and the welding one. The subject has been a pretty regular one on RCM..but I figure some of the welding folks may have been new to the idea. 10hp should be big enough to run a fair sized TIG or stick welder. Hummmmm maybe someone will come take the Hobart Cybertig 2 off my hands now. Good machine, 700 amps top end of programable DC Stuff. Includes a plasma torch and gas console. Needs a pedal though. 10pin hobart. Best offer. Central California, on a cart with flat tires. G But it does run and well. Cheap..really cheap. Damn. Gunner when are you going to get that matter transporter working. If I had a way of getting it here I would take that Cybertig. Wayne Cook Shamrock, TX http://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
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On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 08:18:36 -0500, Wayne Cook
wrote: On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 05:13:07 GMT, Gunner Asch wrote: On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 17:43:52 -0700, "Richard W." wrote: I passed up a real nice older airco tig welder because I wasn't sure if I could run it with my rotary phase converter. I have a miller double roller wire feed unit that would have fit on it perfect. Next time I won't let it get away. Richard W. Thats why I posted it to both rcm and the welding one. The subject has been a pretty regular one on RCM..but I figure some of the welding folks may have been new to the idea. 10hp should be big enough to run a fair sized TIG or stick welder. Hummmmm maybe someone will come take the Hobart Cybertig 2 off my hands now. Good machine, 700 amps top end of programable DC Stuff. Includes a plasma torch and gas console. Needs a pedal though. 10pin hobart. Best offer. Central California, on a cart with flat tires. G But it does run and well. Cheap..really cheap. Damn. Gunner when are you going to get that matter transporter working. If I had a way of getting it here I would take that Cybertig. Wayne Cook Shamrock, TX http://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm ROAD TRIP!!!!!!! Its not all that far to Bakersfield from Texas. You could use a little down time. Let the missus drive while you play the harmonica and watch the world passing your windsheild. Gunner "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
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On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 03:05:16 GMT, Gunner Asch
wrote: On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 08:18:36 -0500, Wayne Cook wrote: On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 05:13:07 GMT, Gunner Asch wrote: On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 17:43:52 -0700, "Richard W." wrote: Hummmmm maybe someone will come take the Hobart Cybertig 2 off my hands now. Good machine, 700 amps top end of programable DC Stuff. Includes a plasma torch and gas console. Needs a pedal though. 10pin hobart. Best offer. Central California, on a cart with flat tires. G But it does run and well. Cheap..really cheap. Damn. Gunner when are you going to get that matter transporter working. If I had a way of getting it here I would take that Cybertig. Wayne Cook Shamrock, TX http://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm ROAD TRIP!!!!!!! Its not all that far to Bakersfield from Texas. You could use a little down time. Let the missus drive while you play the harmonica and watch the world passing your windsheild. There's the rub. She can't drive. Thus I'm forced to do all the driving and I can't stand to drive. It just about kills me to make the drive to Albuquerque every year to see my mother for Christmas or Thanksgiving. Wayne Cook Shamrock, TX http://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm |
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"Gunner Asch" wrote in message ... With the Airco turned on, simply ideling, current went up to about 22 amps per leg, and here is the funny part...at 25 volts, burning .45 DualSheild, with 150 amps indicated on the welder, total current draw only went up to 28 amps, raising the voltage to its top 35 volts...far far into the OH **** spray transfer mode, only raised the total amps to 35 with an indicated 250 amps of weld current. Chuckle..burning that hot was like using a spray gun, the weld looked like it was composed of nothing but tiny ball bearings, and had absolutly no simularity to a weld at all. It was a sponge. I'm not sure what you're describing here. A sponge sounds like porosity. In regular spray transfer without Dual Shield, the weld looks like nice, shiny, molten metal- kind of like the stuff the cop was made out of in Terminator. You can put a lot of metal on fast which can lead to gorilla welds if you're not careful. |
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On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 21:46:31 -0400, "ATP*" wrote:
"Gunner Asch" wrote in message .. . With the Airco turned on, simply ideling, current went up to about 22 amps per leg, and here is the funny part...at 25 volts, burning .45 DualSheild, with 150 amps indicated on the welder, total current draw only went up to 28 amps, raising the voltage to its top 35 volts...far far into the OH **** spray transfer mode, only raised the total amps to 35 with an indicated 250 amps of weld current. Chuckle..burning that hot was like using a spray gun, the weld looked like it was composed of nothing but tiny ball bearings, and had absolutly no simularity to a weld at all. It was a sponge. I'm not sure what you're describing here. A sponge sounds like porosity. In regular spray transfer without Dual Shield, the weld looks like nice, shiny, molten metal- kind of like the stuff the cop was made out of in Terminator. You can put a lot of metal on fast which can lead to gorilla welds if you're not careful. It layed out a bead of metal that looks nothing more than tiny ball bearings all piled up. I had the wire screaming through the nozzel at 35 volts. About 10' a second..chuckle..anything slower with that size wire and it would burn back in a heart beat. When I had enough fun with that, I turned it back down to normal and made some of the nicest beads with good penetration Ive ever done (which aint saying all that much..sigh) I burned up all the .035 copper coated that I had in that mad minute, and I had to stick on a roll of .035 dual shield...70s-3 IRRC. Now I got to brush off the flux..sigh. Gunner "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
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On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 18:31:24 GMT, Gunner Asch
wrote: I think however..Ill start looking for a 1725 rpm 10hp motor , as the noise and the air from the fan itself is like a hurricane, at 3450 rpm Check in with Jerry. |
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Gunner Asch wrote:
Ive got a mint Airco PhaseArc 350 mig welder, which is a 3phase machine so havent been able to run it here at the homestead. When I had the warehouse, I was able to use it down there because there was 3ph. Hating to have machines taking up space that I cant use, I decided to see if it would run off my current 5hp RPC. To make a long story short..It wouldnt. (PRC is Rotary Phase Converter btw), which is basicly nothing more than a 3ph motor spun up to speed in some fashion, and then it will run on single phase 220, and it generates the 3rd leg all by itself, allowing you to hook up 3 phase industrial type equipment to it. I had a brand new Marathon Elect 10hp 3450rpm motor kicking around so I decided to breadboard it up into a bigger RPC and see if it would run the Airco. Getting it up to speed was the problem, as I couldnt spin it fast enough with a rope wrapped around the shaft, so micky moused up a 1/2hp 110vt 3450 moter, pulley and flat belt to spin the big motors shaft directly, before applying single phase power to it. Which worked just fine. God that big 10hp motor is loud when it runs....I could hear it 200 yrs away, Of course..bolting it to a pair of I beams, then sitting loose on the top of my welding bench turned the bench into a sounding board....aaaaack!! Anyways...plugging the Airco mig into the impromptu RPC. I found the motor itself was idaling at about 18 amps on each input leg, and the output legs generate 240, 2399, and 233 volts across the output legs, with the manufactured leg provideing 233 volts. With the Airco turned on, simply ideling, current went up to about 22 amps per leg, and here is the funny part...at 25 volts, burning .45 DualSheild, with 150 amps indicated on the welder, total current draw only went up to 28 amps, raising the voltage to its top 35 volts...far far into the OH **** spray transfer mode, only raised the total amps to 35 with an indicated 250 amps of weld current. Chuckle..burning that hot was like using a spray gun, the weld looked like it was composed of nothing but tiny ball bearings, and had absolutly no simularity to a weld at all. It was a sponge. So, I showed that I can run a decent sized 3 phase industrial type machine on single phase power, which in this case was the spare electric dryer outlet, fused at 40 amps, run into a 50' 6/3 extension cord out to the welding area (which is on its own 60 amp circuit), by making up a simply rpc. I think however..Ill start looking for a 1725 rpm 10hp motor , as the noise and the air from the fan itself is like a hurricane, at 3450 rpm Gunner Cool. I'm a bit envious of that welder but I'll get over it someday, probably.. John "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
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Good job Gunner.
There has been alot of discussion as to whether or not one can use a RPC to do a 3 phase welder. Seems like it is welder specific with some setups working and others not. You've got the magic touch. ;) TMT |
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