While the survivors of Katrina are worrying about hour to hour
survival, most have forgotten that the next mortgage payment is due
soon.

I am interested in hearing your thoughts on this subject...and consider
if it had been your home/business.

TMT

====

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050901/...y_dc&printer=1

New bankruptcy law a problem for Katrina victims By Jonathan Stempel
Thu Sep 1, 6:41 PM ET

Hurricane Katrina is expected to cause a spurt of bankruptcy filings by
storm victims -- and sweeping changes in U.S. bankruptcy laws may leave
them even more strapped than they otherwise might be.

The Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act, which
takes effect October 17, includes a slew of rules and restrictions
intended to curb abuse. These are expected to make it harder for
individuals to file to keep creditors away, and more difficult for
businesses to reorganize.

But the law wasn't directed at people who file because of catastrophes
such as Katrina, in which people lost homes, businesses and perhaps
months of regular paychecks. Katrina has caused widespread devastation
in Louisiana and Mississippi and left New Orleans, population 462,269,
virtually uninhabitable.

"People who are seriously affected by this hurricane are not going to
be able to file bankruptcy by October 17," said Henry Sommer, co-editor
of "Collier on Bankruptcy," a leading reference work. "They have more
pressing things in their lives, like survival."

Michigan's John Conyers, the ranking Democrat on the U.S. House of
Representatives' Judiciary Committee, and three other House members
pledged to soon introduce legislation to provide flexibility for
victims of natural disasters in bankruptcy.

Conyers' aides said legislation may be introduced next week, but aides
to House Republicans said the law doesn't need amending because it only
cracks down on abuse. Aides to Sen. Russ Feingold (news, bio, voting
record), a Wisconsin Democrat, said he might try to postpone the
October 17 implementation date.

COURTS CLOSE

For now, New Orleans' federal bankruptcy court is closed indefinitely,
and referring emergency filers to the bankruptcy court in Baton Rouge,
which is Louisiana's state capital. Courthouses in Alexandria, Lake
Charles, Monroe, Opelousas and Shreveport are also taking emergency
filings.

But there may be a reprieve soon.

A spokesman for the Administrative Office of the U.S. Courts said
officials there are asking Congress to let federal district and
bankruptcy courts in New Orleans move temporarily, perhaps to Baton
Rouge or Shreveport.

Bill Gates, deputy in charge of the Alexandria office, said there is a
"very good likelihood" that by late next week a satellite bankruptcy
court office will open in Baton Rouge.

"Once they get that opened, they'll essentially be running as close to
normal as possible," said Gates.

Courthouses also remain closed in Jackson, Mississippi and Mobile,
Alabama.

LENDERS TAKE STEPS

Under the new bankruptcy law, individuals who file will face extra
paperwork and costs, and many will be subject to a "means test" that
will force them to pay off at least some debts. Businesses will face
new time limits that could force them to make key business decisions
before they're ready.

Some lenders are trying to accommodate Katrina victims already. Ford
Motor Co.'s finance arm on Thursday said it will let customers defer
three loan payments, up from the two it offered on Tuesday. And banks
such as Wachovia Corp. are relaxing some fees and providing loan
assistance.

"Banks have a lot of experience dealing with debtors in difficulty
because of natural disasters," said Wayne Abernathy, an executive
policy director at the American Bankers Association. "The first focus
will be on making sure people can meet their immediate financial
needs."

Still, Lynn LoPucki, a bankruptcy law professor at the University of
California at Los Angeles, said it's hard for debtors to get
individualized attention in an event of Katrina's magnitude. "There are
simply too many," he said.

Sorry about forgetting the OT on the title on this particular post...I
had tried to post this several times earlier with the OT in the title
but Google is having problems.

TMT

I wonder about flood insurance...flood is not normally covered.

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
ups.com...
Sorry about forgetting the OT on the title on this particular post...I
had tried to post this several times earlier with the OT in the title
but Google is having problems.

TMT

According to the reports I have read less than half of ALL structures
in New Orleans have flood insurance.

Flood insurance is also usually limited to a small amount of the total
cost of the structure....insurance companies are in the game to win.

Most rebuilding will have to be financed out of the pocket of the owner
of the home or business...that is if they do rebuild.

I predict that many areas will not be rebuilt. If one looks at other
areas of national disasters, seldom do you see a complete rebuild.
Which brings up the question..."Where will all these people relocate to
permanently...across the street from you and me?"

That is if they have any money left.

TMT

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
oups.com...
According to the reports I have read less than half of ALL structures
in New Orleans have flood insurance.

Flood insurance is also usually limited to a small amount of the total
cost of the structure....insurance companies are in the game to win.

Most rebuilding will have to be financed out of the pocket of the owner
of the home or business...that is if they do rebuild.

I predict that many areas will not be rebuilt. If one looks at other
areas of national disasters, seldom do you see a complete rebuild.
Which brings up the question..."Where will all these people relocate to
permanently...across the street from you and me?"

That is if they have any money left.

TMT


We could sure use some new cuisine eateries in Cleveland, so I hope those
that come here can cook!

Too_Many_Tools wrote:

I predict that many areas will not be rebuilt. If one looks at other
areas of national disasters, seldom do you see a complete rebuild.

You're probably right on there. And, this has me thinking. Anyone read
up on the New Madrid Fault? If that fault ripped off a 8.0, it could
make Katrina look like a party. Might not cover as much area, but much
heavier damage.

Jon

You are quite right about the insurance unless the building is worth less
than the guidelines. I know commercial is 250,000. Flood insurance has lots
of exclusions like it does not cover garages unless they are finished out
and enclosed. It does not cover any room or equipment that has a tank for
holding water. Even though I had to carry flood insurance on a carwash it
did not cover any damage due to the exclusions.

Roy


"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
oups.com...
According to the reports I have read less than half of ALL structures
in New Orleans have flood insurance.

Flood insurance is also usually limited to a small amount of the total
cost of the structure....insurance companies are in the game to win.

Most rebuilding will have to be financed out of the pocket of the owner
of the home or business...that is if they do rebuild.

I predict that many areas will not be rebuilt. If one looks at other
areas of national disasters, seldom do you see a complete rebuild.
Which brings up the question..."Where will all these people relocate to
permanently...across the street from you and me?"

That is if they have any money left.

TMT

In New Orleans all properties had to have flood insurance it they had a
mortgage. the whole city was a flood zone, most likely most of the coast was
too.

Roy


"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...
I wonder about flood insurance...flood is not normally covered.

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
ups.com...
Sorry about forgetting the OT on the title on this particular post...I
had tried to post this several times earlier with the OT in the title
but Google is having problems.

TMT

As I said before, I have read an article this week on the subject of
insurance liability in New Orleans and the article noted that less than
40% of the structures had any flood coverage.

I know from experience that flood insurance is very limited at the
best...insurance companies know that it is a losing game and plan for
it.

I understand what you mean about the mortgage holder wanting to have
coverage on a covered property but when no one will insure it or
underinsure it the owner is still liable for the loss.

TMT

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
oups.com...
As I said before, I have read an article this week on the subject of
insurance liability in New Orleans and the article noted that less than
40% of the structures had any flood coverage.

I know from experience that flood insurance is very limited at the
best...insurance companies know that it is a losing game and plan for
it.

I understand what you mean about the mortgage holder wanting to have
coverage on a covered property but when no one will insure it or
underinsure it the owner is still liable for the loss.

TMT

i heard 1 in 4 has flood insurance. private companies don't offer flood
insurance, which is only offered through a federal plan. private companies
may take the premiums, but they get passed on to the fed plan.

Tom Gardner wrote:
I wonder about flood insurance...flood is not normally covered.


What do you mean by "not normally". Of course you're covered, ...if you
buy it. The same is true in California. You don't have to buy
earthquake insurance, but if you do, you're covered.

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

In article ,
Abrasha wrote:

Tom Gardner wrote:
I wonder about flood insurance...flood is not normally covered.


What do you mean by "not normally". Of course you're covered, ...if you
buy it. The same is true in California. You don't have to buy
earthquake insurance, but if you do, you're covered.

Assuming you can buy insert calamity insurance at all, that is...

--
Don Bruder - - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004.
Short form: I'm trashing EVERY E-mail that doesn't contain a password in the
subject unless it comes from a "whitelisted" (pre-approved by me) address.
See http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html for full details.

On Sun, 04 Sep 2005 01:35:35 GMT, Don Bruder wrote:

In article ,
Abrasha wrote:

Tom Gardner wrote:
I wonder about flood insurance...flood is not normally covered.


What do you mean by "not normally". Of course you're covered, ...if you
buy it. The same is true in California. You don't have to buy
earthquake insurance, but if you do, you're covered.

Assuming you can buy insert calamity insurance at all, that is...

Im not sure its even possible to purchase earthquake insurance in
California any more.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

I was flooded one year, tried to buy flood insurance, and was told I
am not able to purchase it in my area as its not a flood plain.Its
government backed and to be able to buy it one must actuyally live in
an area that is designated a flood plain.


On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 18:23:23 -0700, Abrasha
wrote:

===Tom Gardner wrote:
=== I wonder about flood insurance...flood is not normally covered.
===
===
===What do you mean by "not normally". Of course you're covered, ...if you
===buy it. The same is true in California. You don't have to buy
===earthquake insurance, but if you do, you're covered.
===
===Abrasha
===http://www.abrasha.com


==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!
"The original frugal ponder"
~~~~ }((((o ~~~~~~ }{{{{o ~~~~~~~ }(((((o

On Sun, 04 Sep 2005 03:05:14 GMT, (Roy) wrote:
On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 18:23:23 -0700, Abrasha
wrote:

Tom Gardner wrote:

I wonder about flood insurance...flood is not normally covered.

What do you mean by "not normally". Of course you're covered, ...if you
buy it. The same is true in California. You don't have to buy
earthquake insurance, but if you do, you're covered.

Abrasha

Someone said Earthquake coverage is not available anymore - sure it
is, we have it. But like any disaster insurance policy ever issued,
they put a moratorium on all new policy sales right after a disaster
that might cause claims, and when you buy the policy there is a (30
day?) waiting period before it takes effect. And they have a right to
send out an inspector before the policy goes into effect.

Because there are always those fools who wait to buy before the
"Storm Of The Century" shows up on the news. And those looking to
commit insurance fraud by buying /after/ the disaster and then
claiming the damages - Sorry, but insurance is not retroactive.

I was flooded one year, tried to buy flood insurance, and was told I
am not able to purchase it in my area as its not a flood plain.Its
government backed and to be able to buy it one must actuyally live in
an area that is designated a flood plain.

Makes sense to me that they won't sell you Flood Insurance with no
flooding source nearby - Why should I buy Elephant Stampede Insurance
if I don't live in Africa? On the 100 Trillion-to-one chance that a
whole herd escapes from the Los Angeles Zoo, and travels all the way
across the valley (a good 20 miles) just to wipe out my house? ;-P

See answer above - if there's zero chance of your house flooding
from natural means, why would you buy the insurance? Flood insurance
is meant for a river rising out of it's banks and sending a foot of
water into the property that you have no way of controlling.

If your house floods because you did not build the foundation high
enough above grade, or because you do not have proper drainage slope
away from the house, or because the roof leaks, those are all things
under your immediate control that you need to remediate. Those are
not an Act Of God, just poor planning.

Now if you think the Government has it wrong and there really is a
chance your area can flood through natural causes, you can appeal to
have them review their flood plain maps - I am sure your neighbors
will be /SO/ appreciative if you suddenly complicate their lives like
that, and add another insurance bill to their load.

(So appreciative that you might want to buy Lynch Mob Insurance
first - but be sure to wait for it to go into effect first...) :-0

-- Bruce --

--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

Hell probably the best thing they can do is not worry about it, if
their insurance does not cover flood, which in the case of NO is just
that.........but perhaps living under the protection of a dike
system, may in fact allow them to have a flood rider in their
policy.....However if not insured, and mortgage due, on property under
water, what are they gonna lkoose, they lost it all anyhow.......and
they sure as hell are not gonna be hassled by a bill collector
knocking on their door or constantly calling them........

==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!
"The original frugal ponder"
~~~~ }((((o ~~~~~~ }{{{{o ~~~~~~~ }(((((o

As I said before, 60% of the structures in New Orleans have no flood
insurance.

According to FEMA when a structure is exposed to flood waters for 48
hours it is unsalavagable.

Then the local zoning/building laws will require it to be razed before
rebuilding is allowed.

Almost every wooden structure that is flooded in New Orleans will be
torn down.

If they default on the loan, the new law allows creditors to go after
almost all assets that the home owner still has.

I would assume that to include any future housing that they might be
able to own.

TMT

FYI....

Regulators Urge Banks to Provide Storm Aid By MARTIN CRUTSINGER, AP
Economics Writer
Thu Sep 1, 7:06 PM ET

Federal and state banking regulators on Thursday urged financial
institutions in areas affected by Hurricane Katrina to do what they
could to help customers with their banking needs.

The regulators suggested those actions could include waiving fees for
use of automated teller machines, increasing the daily withdrawal
limits on ATM machines and easing restrictions on cashing out-of-state
and non-customer checks.

In a joint statement, the regulators said that banks and other
financial institutions should "consider all reasonable and prudent
actions that could help meet the critical financial needs of their
customers and communities."

Among other possible actions the banking regulators suggested were
waiving overdraft fees for people whose paychecks have been
interrupted, allowing loan customers to defer or skip some payments and
waiving early-withdrawal penalties on time deposit accounts.

The regulators said that many financial institutions were already
implementing contingency plans including procedures for consumers to
have access to ATMs and the use of their debit cards.

Separately, the Internal Revenue Service announced that it had set up a
special toll-free telephone number for use by taxpayers affected by
Katrina who need help with tax matters. These people can call
1-866-562-5227.

The joint banking statement was issued by the Federal Reserve, the
Comptroller of the Currency, the Office of Thrift Supervision, the
Federal Deposit Insurance Corp., the Conference of State Bank
Supervisors and the National Credit Union Administration.

Mortgage-finance giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac announced earlier
this week that they are helping homeowners who are in difficult straits
in the hurricane-ravaged areas by allowing reduced or suspended
mortgage payments on a case-by-case basis.

imprison those that would profit from this disaster
cj


Too_Many_Tools wrote:

While the survivors of Katrina are worrying about hour to hour
survival, most have forgotten that the next mortgage payment is due
soon.

I am interested in hearing your thoughts on this subject...and consider
if it had been your home/business.

TMT

====

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050901/...y_dc&printer=1

New bankruptcy law a problem for Katrina victims By Jonathan Stempel
Thu Sep 1, 6:41 PM ET

Hurricane Katrina is expected to cause a spurt of bankruptcy filings by
storm victims -- and sweeping changes in U.S. bankruptcy laws may leave
them even more strapped than they otherwise might be.

The Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act, which
takes effect October 17, includes a slew of rules and restrictions
intended to curb abuse. These are expected to make it harder for
individuals to file to keep creditors away, and more difficult for
businesses to reorganize.

But the law wasn't directed at people who file because of catastrophes
such as Katrina, in which people lost homes, businesses and perhaps
months of regular paychecks. Katrina has caused widespread devastation
in Louisiana and Mississippi and left New Orleans, population 462,269,
virtually uninhabitable.

"People who are seriously affected by this hurricane are not going to
be able to file bankruptcy by October 17," said Henry Sommer, co-editor
of "Collier on Bankruptcy," a leading reference work. "They have more
pressing things in their lives, like survival."

Michigan's John Conyers, the ranking Democrat on the U.S. House of
Representatives' Judiciary Committee, and three other House members
pledged to soon introduce legislation to provide flexibility for
victims of natural disasters in bankruptcy.

Conyers' aides said legislation may be introduced next week, but aides
to House Republicans said the law doesn't need amending because it only
cracks down on abuse. Aides to Sen. Russ Feingold (news, bio, voting
record), a Wisconsin Democrat, said he might try to postpone the
October 17 implementation date.

COURTS CLOSE

For now, New Orleans' federal bankruptcy court is closed indefinitely,
and referring emergency filers to the bankruptcy court in Baton Rouge,
which is Louisiana's state capital. Courthouses in Alexandria, Lake
Charles, Monroe, Opelousas and Shreveport are also taking emergency
filings.

But there may be a reprieve soon.

A spokesman for the Administrative Office of the U.S. Courts said
officials there are asking Congress to let federal district and
bankruptcy courts in New Orleans move temporarily, perhaps to Baton
Rouge or Shreveport.

Bill Gates, deputy in charge of the Alexandria office, said there is a
"very good likelihood" that by late next week a satellite bankruptcy
court office will open in Baton Rouge.

"Once they get that opened, they'll essentially be running as close to
normal as possible," said Gates.

Courthouses also remain closed in Jackson, Mississippi and Mobile,
Alabama.

LENDERS TAKE STEPS

Under the new bankruptcy law, individuals who file will face extra
paperwork and costs, and many will be subject to a "means test" that
will force them to pay off at least some debts. Businesses will face
new time limits that could force them to make key business decisions
before they're ready.

Some lenders are trying to accommodate Katrina victims already. Ford
Motor Co.'s finance arm on Thursday said it will let customers defer
three loan payments, up from the two it offered on Tuesday. And banks
such as Wachovia Corp. are relaxing some fees and providing loan
assistance.

"Banks have a lot of experience dealing with debtors in difficulty
because of natural disasters," said Wayne Abernathy, an executive
policy director at the American Bankers Association. "The first focus
will be on making sure people can meet their immediate financial
needs."

Still, Lynn LoPucki, a bankruptcy law professor at the University of
California at Los Angeles, said it's hard for debtors to get
individualized attention in an event of Katrina's magnitude. "There are
simply too many," he said.

In a few months, please note the profits of the oil companies.

I'll hold the door to the jail open for them.

TMT

cj wrote:
imprison those that would profit from this disaster
cj

I'd be happy if they'd just re-imprison the inmates they let loose!

On 1 Sep 2005 19:03:47 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote:

Some lenders are trying to accommodate Katrina victims already. Ford
Motor Co.'s finance arm on Thursday said it will let customers defer
three loan payments, up from the two it offered on Tuesday.


Chuckle...I can see the repo companies bringing in all the new
cars..repoed by divers, cranes and barges.

The car companies are ****ed.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On 1 Sep 2005 19:03:47 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote:

Some lenders are trying to accommodate Katrina victims already. Ford
Motor Co.'s finance arm on Thursday said it will let customers defer
three loan payments, up from the two it offered on Tuesday.


Chuckle...I can see the repo companies bringing in all the new
cars..repoed by divers, cranes and barges.

The car companies are ****ed.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

I was required to have flood insurance when I lived in Southern CA. It was
about $120/month and did not cover the foundation...also had a $8k
deductable...

xman

How about earthquake insurance?

What we are seeing in New Orleans is a preview of what CA has in its
future when the Big One happens.

CA real estate will be as desirable as downtown New Orleans is
now....something to remember when rebuilding is considered.

TMT

And watch out for specials - e.g great prices on new looking cars and trucks.
That spent time under water, cleaned and fixed a little - (but is rusting itself to death.)
Martin
Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



Gunner wrote:
On 1 Sep 2005 19:03:47 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote:


Some lenders are trying to accommodate Katrina victims already. Ford
Motor Co.'s finance arm on Thursday said it will let customers defer
three loan payments, up from the two it offered on Tuesday.



Chuckle...I can see the repo companies bringing in all the new
cars..repoed by divers, cranes and barges.

The car companies are ****ed.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
And watch out for specials - e.g great prices on new looking cars
and trucks. That spent time under water, cleaned and fixed a little
(but is rusting itself to death.)

I thought the big problem wasn't necessarily the bodywork, but the
electricals...
--Glenn Lyford

I thought the big problem wasn't necessarily the bodywork, but the
electricals...

How about water in things like the transmission or transaxle?
or do they show up quickly?

I have seen the results of cars and trucks being underwater....the
problems never end.

Electrical systems develop problems for years, seals allow water in to
cause future problems, body work rusts from the inside out....it just
goes on and on and on.

Bear in mind that these vehicles from along the Gulf Coast will be
shipped thousands of miles to unsuspecting customers.

As someone has said, buy your used vehicles now since this blight will
be with the market for years as people sell their problem cars to
others.

TMT

Just think the bankruptcy laws just changed.

In the late 80's I lost everything due to getting hit by a car. Did not work
for two years was homeless for 8 months. After two years got my part of the
insurance settlement that was $7000. I am now doing quite well with a little
hard work, built and sold two carwashes.

Roy
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
oups.com...
While the survivors of Katrina are worrying about hour to hour
survival, most have forgotten that the next mortgage payment is due
soon.

I am interested in hearing your thoughts on this subject...and consider
if it had been your home/business.

TMT

====

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050901/...y_dc&printer=1

New bankruptcy law a problem for Katrina victims By Jonathan Stempel
Thu Sep 1, 6:41 PM ET

Hurricane Katrina is expected to cause a spurt of bankruptcy filings by
storm victims -- and sweeping changes in U.S. bankruptcy laws may leave
them even more strapped than they otherwise might be.

The Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act, which
takes effect October 17, includes a slew of rules and restrictions
intended to curb abuse. These are expected to make it harder for
individuals to file to keep creditors away, and more difficult for
businesses to reorganize.

But the law wasn't directed at people who file because of catastrophes
such as Katrina, in which people lost homes, businesses and perhaps
months of regular paychecks. Katrina has caused widespread devastation
in Louisiana and Mississippi and left New Orleans, population 462,269,
virtually uninhabitable.

"People who are seriously affected by this hurricane are not going to
be able to file bankruptcy by October 17," said Henry Sommer, co-editor
of "Collier on Bankruptcy," a leading reference work. "They have more
pressing things in their lives, like survival."

Michigan's John Conyers, the ranking Democrat on the U.S. House of
Representatives' Judiciary Committee, and three other House members
pledged to soon introduce legislation to provide flexibility for
victims of natural disasters in bankruptcy.

Conyers' aides said legislation may be introduced next week, but aides
to House Republicans said the law doesn't need amending because it only
cracks down on abuse. Aides to Sen. Russ Feingold (news, bio, voting
record), a Wisconsin Democrat, said he might try to postpone the
October 17 implementation date.

COURTS CLOSE

For now, New Orleans' federal bankruptcy court is closed indefinitely,
and referring emergency filers to the bankruptcy court in Baton Rouge,
which is Louisiana's state capital. Courthouses in Alexandria, Lake
Charles, Monroe, Opelousas and Shreveport are also taking emergency
filings.

But there may be a reprieve soon.

A spokesman for the Administrative Office of the U.S. Courts said
officials there are asking Congress to let federal district and
bankruptcy courts in New Orleans move temporarily, perhaps to Baton
Rouge or Shreveport.

Bill Gates, deputy in charge of the Alexandria office, said there is a
"very good likelihood" that by late next week a satellite bankruptcy
court office will open in Baton Rouge.

"Once they get that opened, they'll essentially be running as close to
normal as possible," said Gates.

Courthouses also remain closed in Jackson, Mississippi and Mobile,
Alabama.

LENDERS TAKE STEPS

Under the new bankruptcy law, individuals who file will face extra
paperwork and costs, and many will be subject to a "means test" that
will force them to pay off at least some debts. Businesses will face
new time limits that could force them to make key business decisions
before they're ready.

Some lenders are trying to accommodate Katrina victims already. Ford
Motor Co.'s finance arm on Thursday said it will let customers defer
three loan payments, up from the two it offered on Tuesday. And banks
such as Wachovia Corp. are relaxing some fees and providing loan
assistance.

"Banks have a lot of experience dealing with debtors in difficulty
because of natural disasters," said Wayne Abernathy, an executive
policy director at the American Bankers Association. "The first focus
will be on making sure people can meet their immediate financial
needs."

Still, Lynn LoPucki, a bankruptcy law professor at the University of
California at Los Angeles, said it's hard for debtors to get
individualized attention in an event of Katrina's magnitude. "There are
simply too many," he said.

In article .com,
Too_Many_Tools says...

While the survivors of Katrina are worrying about hour to hour
survival, most have forgotten that the next mortgage payment is due
soon.

Mortgage hell, I want to see what happens when it's time
for them to file their tax returns in November.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

You have identified the most serious threat to the U.S. as a
whole.

Most real property is not owned free and clear and the mortgages,
somewhere down the daisy chain of liability, will become the
obligations of the U.S. citizens through the "full faith and
credit" guarantee by the Federal government.

Additionally no one knows how many convoluted and arcane
financial "derivatives" exist and how these will interact. One
example is the coffee futures market. About ½ of all coffee
imported to the US came through New Orleans and much of the
existing U.S. stockpiles were located there. It is impossible to
tell, until you are notified of the losses, how much of your
401k, IRA, mutual funds, etc. were involved.

Huge number of new cars sold for zero down and 60 or 72 month
loans were located in the affected area. This will have a huge
impact on an already fragile GMIC/GMAC and its counterparts,
which securities/paper are already rated "high yield" (i.e. junk)

The general insurance and casualty companies will need vast
amounts of money to pay claims which means they will be required
to liquidate many of their holdings, possibly at fire sale
prices, with serious impact on the stock and bond markets.

This situation is also likely to force to the surface just how
much of the reported corporate profits and assets consist of
IOUs, monopoly money and post-dated checks, and how much is real
"coin of the realm."


On 1 Sep 2005 19:03:47 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote:
While the survivors of Katrina are worrying about hour to hour
survival, most have forgotten that the next mortgage payment is due
soon.
I am interested in hearing your thoughts on this subject...and consider
if it had been your home/business.
snip

Just think of all of those maxed out credit card holders that now have
been dissapated. No forwarding address... no more address, no house

And these people shipped out, how are they supposed to get back?

On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 10:06:28 -0500, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

snip

The general insurance and casualty companies will need vast
amounts of money to pay claims which means they will be required
to liquidate many of their holdings, possibly at fire sale
prices, with serious impact on the stock and bond markets.

snip

I wouldn't mind betting that many of the insurance companies have re-insurance
contracts. There will be bankruptcies amongst the names of Lloyds of London.


Mark Rand
RTFM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/krwashbureau...cies&printer=1

New bankruptcy law imposes more burdens on Katrina survivors By Tony
Pugh, Knight Ridder Newspapers

WASHINGTON - Hurricane Katrina survivors whose finances are in shambles
may not qualify for federal bankruptcy protection once a new law with
tough eligibility restrictions takes effect Oct. 17.

And anyone who intends to file before the new standards take effect
must overcome other Katrina complications such as injuries, being moved
to out-of-state shelters, the loss of personal financial records and
the closure of the five federal courthouses in hurricane-ravaged areas
of Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama.

The Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention & Consumer Protection Act, which
President Bush signed into law April 20, allows only people who earn
less than their states' median income to file for Chapter 7 bankruptcy
protection, which lets them erase their debts after they forfeit their
assets. Those who earn more than the state median income and can repay
at least $6,000 over five years must file under a Chapter 13
bankruptcy-reorganization plan, which requires some repayment.

The law would force about 10 percent of debtors to seek Chapter 13 debt
relief instead of Chapter 7 protection, studies have found. As a
result, creditors would net an extra $1 billion to $4 billion in debt
repayments over a five-year period, according to similar studies.

The law also requires bankruptcy filers to submit more paperwork, such
as tax returns and paycheck stubs, and to get credit counseling - at
their own expense - within six months of applying. It bases a
petitioner's current income on the average amount earned for the six
months preceding the application.

Consumer advocates said that was unfair to hurricane victims who'd lost
their jobs. They said these and other new provisions of the law made a
bad situation worse for cash-strapped storm survivors.

The Consumer Federation of America and the National Association of
Consumer Bankruptcy Attorneys want Congress to pass a one-year waiver
of the new law's toughest provisions for victims whose financial
problems were caused or aggravated by Katrina or other natural
disasters.

The one-year period is important because most post-hurricane bankruptcy
filings occur many months after the storm. "Reality starts sinking in,"
said Bradford Botes, a board member of the National Association of
Consumer Bankruptcy Attorneys. "People can't make house payments.
People can't make car payments or they missed those payments for a
three- or four-month period and that's when foreclosures and
repossession actions are initiated."

Democrats in Congress are drafting the legislation. They hope for
bipartisan backing, but it's unclear whether Republican members, who
strongly supported the tougher bankruptcy legislation, will favor the
measure.

Advocates are optimistic. "I think you're going to see a serious effort
to include this provision either as a standalone bill or as relief
legislation," said Travis Plunkett, the legislative director of the
Consumer Federation of America.

The American Financial Services Association, which represents the
lending and credit card industry, opposes the waiver.

The new law already provides flexibility for bankruptcy filers to waive
new paperwork and other requirements if they can demonstrate and
document "special circumstances" to the court, said Lynne Strang, an
association spokeswoman.

"Clearly, the circumstances of many affected by Hurricane Katrina put
them in a position that they would be entitled to exceptions under the
law. We expect that the (bankruptcy) trustees and judges will easily
find that they qualify for special circumstances and provide them the
relief they need," Strang said.

The law contains exceptions for certain groups. For example, disabled
veterans and troops on active duty are excluded from the income means
test, Plunkett said. People who are in persistent vegetative states and
those who are deployed overseas are excluded from the credit-counseling
requirement, he said.

"Victims of Katrina should receive the same exceptions," he added.

A new study by law professor Robert M. Lawless of the University of
Nevada Las Vegas evaluated bankruptcy filings after 18 U.S. hurricanes
and tropical storms that caused more than $1 billion in damage since
1980. Lawless found that in hurricane-affected states, bankruptcy
filings grew at 1{ times the rate in unaffected states - for three
straight years.

Lawless expects more filings after Katrina. "There's going to be more
bankruptcies, but they will show up in broader regions. This is so
unprecedented in the scope of the damage that these bankruptcies are
going to show up all over the United States," he said.

In article . com,
Too_Many_Tools says...

The law would force about 10 percent of debtors to seek Chapter 13 debt
relief instead of Chapter 7 protection, studies have found. As a
result, creditors would net an extra $1 billion to $4 billion in debt
repayments over a five-year period, according to similar studies.

You need to get over this. The banks have bought and paid for
their legislation, and it's been delivered by the present
administration, exactly as promised.

The politicos DON'T CARE how many folks will be wiped out by the
new changes in bankrupcy law - that's why they changed them in
the FIRST PLACE. They just want to make their contributors
(banks and credit card companies) happy. This is how US politics
works now and you just better get darn used to it.

Hurricanes? Who cares? Just send us the money. Oh, and you'll
be better off living in Texas anyway.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

I agree with your comments but one needs to know the enemy to be
prepared.

I think you need to consider this....the people of New Orleans today...
possibly you or I tomorrow.

FYI....the most common reason for bankruptcy is excessive medical
expenses. Over 40% of these medical related bankruptcies are people who
had medical insurance when their problems began. So how have you been
feeling lately?

You want to understand the new laws and how they will be applied...and
the survivors of Katrina will be the test subjects to see how they work
for the rest of us if it ever comes to that.

As for the survivors of Katrina living in Texas...don't be to sure.
That is just a way station till they are passed off to the next
location.

TMT

In article .com,
Too_Many_Tools says...


I agree with your comments but one needs to know the enemy to be
prepared.

I think you need to consider this....the people of New Orleans today...
possibly you or I tomorrow.

FYI....the most common reason for bankruptcy is excessive medical
expenses. Over 40% of these medical related bankruptcies are people who
had medical insurance when their problems began. So how have you been
feeling lately?

There's a related issue there - most families now require *two* incomes
to meet the expenses. So any *one* medical emergency not only saddles
the family with the hosptal bills but it also causes the second income
to go away.

In my case my wife's not working right now, so she could be put into
income-earning mode if need be. And I've deliberately kept our
house/vehicle situation in low-expense mode. No car payments, recently
re-fied our mortgage at the low point in the market.

The real question is, how much is heating oil gonna run this winter?
That single expense could bust the bank for a lot of familes.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

The word currently is that natural gas will be 70% higher this
winter...this is the most optimistic guess.

It is likely to be higher.

You might also want to insulate if you can find it...the prices have
gone up 25% and there are spot shortages now.

TMT

Too_Many_Tools wrote:

FYI....the most common reason for bankruptcy is excessive medical
expenses. Over 40% of these medical related bankruptcies are people who
had medical insurance when their problems began. So how have you been
feeling lately?

I've already decided if most any terminal disease hit me, I'd skip the
desperate and expensive attempts to string things out. I've also signed
papers and made it well known I want no heroic life support unless I'm
likely to recoup enough to walk out. Can't see leaving my wife and kids
with medical bills that would wipe out the life insurance or worse,
leave them buried in debt.

Jon

In article ,
Jon Anderson wrote:

Too_Many_Tools wrote:

FYI....the most common reason for bankruptcy is excessive medical
expenses. Over 40% of these medical related bankruptcies are people who
had medical insurance when their problems began. So how have you been
feeling lately?

I've already decided if most any terminal disease hit me, I'd skip the
desperate and expensive attempts to string things out. I've also signed
papers and made it well known I want no heroic life support unless I'm
likely to recoup enough to walk out. Can't see leaving my wife and kids
with medical bills that would wipe out the life insurance or worse,
leave them buried in debt.

Jon


IIRC, you will live longer without 'heroic' life support. And
statistically you will live 17 years longer than your doctor.

--
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