I am making a big prop for halloween which I want to have a frame made of 1-1/2"
square tubing with 1/8" walls. I obtained the tubing and cut the correct
lengths on my grinding wheel chop saw, debured the ends and sanded the metal
clean where I wanted to weld. I used the only welder I have, a 230 amp (max) AC
stick welder. I have now learned I can't weld.

So...I want to take these parts somewhere and get them welded. I have them all
labeled, cut to length, sanded, and with diagrams showing how they fit together.
I estimate about 20 welds, all 90 degree joints.

What am I looking at cost wise to have this assembly welded up? Will shops take
metal that you have prepped and weld it or do they want to use their own metal?
I live just outside the Seattle area.

Thanks for any help,

Rick

"Rick" wrote in message
news:176me.5564$m%3.1285@trnddc02...
I am making a big prop for halloween which I want to have a frame made of
1-1/2" square tubing with 1/8" walls. I obtained the tubing and cut the
correct lengths on my grinding wheel chop saw, debured the ends and sanded
the metal clean where I wanted to weld. I used the only welder I have, a
230 amp (max) AC stick welder. I have now learned I can't weld.

So...I want to take these parts somewhere and get them welded.

Just out of curiosity, how is it that you have a welder, but don't know how
to use it? Halloween is still five months away: plenty of time for you to
learn how to stick weld. Why not take a class, find someone to teach you, or
simply buy a book and video and practice on your own?

- Michael

amp (max) AC stick welder. I have now learned I can't weld.

So...I want to take these parts somewhere and get them welded.

Just out of curiosity, how is it that you have a welder, but don't know how
to use it? Halloween is still five months away: plenty of time for you to
learn how to stick weld. Why not take a class, find someone to teach you, or
simply buy a book and video and practice on your own?

- Michael



That is just it, I don't have time to learn. This is going to be one of the
coolest halloween
props I have ever made (I want to keep it secret right now) and it is going to
take a lot of
my time doing machining on my mill and a lot of electronic work.

As an example of a prop I made last year, look at this haunted ouija board that
spells out
messaged programmed into it's microcontroller. It was a huge hit at our party,
and was just
one of the many props I made. I spend half the year getting ready for
halloween. :-)

www.skyko.com/halloween/ouija.wmv

A pic of the internals:

http://www.skyko.com/halloween/ouijaguts.jpg

Oh and also last year I hooked up a CO2 laser to my cnc mill and made these:

http://www.skyko.com/halloween/tombstones.jpg

Time to learn how to weld? lol, maybe in November! :-p

Thanks,

Rick

"Rick" wrote in message
news:cS6me.5566$m%3.4250@trnddc02...

That is just it, I don't have time to learn. This is going to be one of
the coolest halloween props I have ever made (I want to keep it secret
right now) and it is going to take a lot of my time doing machining on
my mill and a lot of electronic work.

As an example of a prop I made last year, look at this haunted ouija board
that spells out messaged programmed into it's microcontroller. It was a
huge hit at our party, and was just one of the many props I made. I spend
half the year getting ready for halloween. :-)

www.skyko.com/halloween/ouija.wmv

A pic of the internals:

http://www.skyko.com/halloween/ouijaguts.jpg

Oh and also last year I hooked up a CO2 laser to my cnc mill and made
these:

http://www.skyko.com/halloween/tombstones.jpg

Time to learn how to weld? lol, maybe in November! :-p


Anyone who has the money, tools, and time to make those kinds of toys must
have enough disposable income to buy a decent MIG welder. Get one and you'll
be laying down very nice beads within a day.

You can get a very nice factory reconditioned Hobart 135 Amp MIG welder from
Harbor Freight for just $380:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=55236

This is a great deal and will easily pay for itself in short time.

- Michael

On Sat, 28 May 2005 22:18:37 GMT, "Rick" wrote:

I am making a big prop for halloween which I want to have a frame made of 1-1/2"
square tubing with 1/8" walls. I obtained the tubing and cut the correct
lengths on my grinding wheel chop saw, debured the ends and sanded the metal
clean where I wanted to weld. I used the only welder I have, a 230 amp (max) AC
stick welder. I have now learned I can't weld.

So...I want to take these parts somewhere and get them welded. I have them all
labeled, cut to length, sanded, and with diagrams showing how they fit together.
I estimate about 20 welds, all 90 degree joints.

What am I looking at cost wise to have this assembly welded up? Will shops take
metal that you have prepped and weld it or do they want to use their own metal?
I live just outside the Seattle area.

Thanks for any help,

Rick

Everybody can weld, with the possible exception of Helen Keller. What
seems to be the problem?

Gunner

"Considering the events of recent years,
the world has a long way to go to regain
its credibility and reputation with the US."
unknown

"Rick" wrote in message
news:cS6me.5566$m%3.4250@trnddc02...
amp (max) AC stick welder. I have now learned I can't weld.

So...I want to take these parts somewhere and get them welded.

Just out of curiosity, how is it that you have a welder, but don't know
how
to use it? Halloween is still five months away: plenty of time for you to
learn how to stick weld. Why not take a class, find someone to teach you,
or
simply buy a book and video and practice on your own?

- Michael



That is just it, I don't have time to learn. This is going to be one of
the
coolest halloween
props I have ever made (I want to keep it secret right now) and it is
going to
take a lot of
my time doing machining on my mill and a lot of electronic work.

As an example of a prop I made last year, look at this haunted ouija board
that
spells out
messaged programmed into it's microcontroller. It was a huge hit at our
party,
and was just
one of the many props I made. I spend half the year getting ready for
halloween. :-)

www.skyko.com/halloween/ouija.wmv

A pic of the internals:

http://www.skyko.com/halloween/ouijaguts.jpg

Oh and also last year I hooked up a CO2 laser to my cnc mill and made
these:

http://www.skyko.com/halloween/tombstones.jpg

Time to learn how to weld? lol, maybe in November! :-p

Thanks,

Rick

Rick

I'm betting that you learn to weld within a half hour after you get the
right (little) rod.
I'm probably the least informed and poorest welder around. But, even *I*
find square tube to be easy to weld. Right now, I have some 1/16 th 6013
stick from Harbor Freight. Weld that (1/16th 6013) with the welder set for
about 60 amps, and you should get decent welds within a few passes.

If you are lucky (or persistant) you might get Ernie Leimkuhler to tell
you some techniques to make your learning go quicker.

Jerry

"DeepDiver" wrote in


Anyone who has the money, tools, and time to make those kinds of toys must
have enough disposable income to buy a decent MIG welder. Get one and
you'll be laying down very nice beads within a day.

Now, Deep, don't be responsible for sending another innocent soul into
addiction.

Having a welder is POWER! Knowing how to use it is ABSOLUTE POWER.

Your suggestion for the poster to buy a welding machine is spot on. Just
realize that you may change this man's life.

Really, though. If you are into building things out of tubing, you can
learn to MIG weld in about thirty minutes, and that is if you are a slow
learner. You get charts on thicknesses that make it a no brainer. If you
can find someone that knows how, you will be getting the hang of it before
the end of the first beer.

Then, there is just no limit to what you can build, or the depths of
addiction.


STeve

"Jerry Martes" wrote


I'm betting that you learn to weld within a half hour after you get the
right (little) rod.
I'm probably the least informed and poorest welder around. But, even *I*
find square tube to be easy to weld. Right now, I have some 1/16 th 6013
stick from Harbor Freight. Weld that (1/16th 6013) with the welder set
for about 60 amps, and you should get decent welds within a few passes.

If you are lucky (or persistant) you might get Ernie Leimkuhler to tell
you some techniques to make your learning go quicker.

Jerry

For those who have a DC welder, 6011 3/32" rod with electrode negative is a
VERY good way to weld light tubing. Use a whipping action, and don't create
too big a puddle. Run it as low as you can and still get good fusion.

I used to use these rods for in field "wrought iron" repair of light tubing.
A little tricky, but not rocket surgery.
Steve

"Jerry Martes" wrote: (clip) If you are lucky (or persistant) you might
get Ernie Leimkuhler to tell you some techniques to make your learning go
quicker.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Ernie's name popped into my mind as soon as I saw where you are located. He
would probably do the job for pay, or teach you what it would take to get
started, or recommend one of his students to do the job. Ernie's reputation
is "helpful."

In article 176me.5564$m%3.1285@trnddc02, Rick wrote:

I am making a big prop for halloween which I want to have a frame made of
1-1/2"
square tubing with 1/8" walls. I obtained the tubing and cut the correct
lengths on my grinding wheel chop saw, debured the ends and sanded the metal
clean where I wanted to weld. I used the only welder I have, a 230 amp (max)
AC
stick welder. I have now learned I can't weld.

So...I want to take these parts somewhere and get them welded. I have them
all
labeled, cut to length, sanded, and with diagrams showing how they fit
together.
I estimate about 20 welds, all 90 degree joints.

What am I looking at cost wise to have this assembly welded up? Will shops
take
metal that you have prepped and weld it or do they want to use their own
metal?
I live just outside the Seattle area.

Thanks for any help,

Rick




Come and take my summer evening welding class at South Seattle Comm.
Coll.and build your frame at school.
I will be teaching Tuesday / Thursday evenings starting June 27th.

Actually I will be teaching Tuesday evening and Monday through Thursday
mornings.
Kathleen Odonnel will be teaching Thursday evening and Friday Morniong.
Wacky schedule but it should be fun.
She is a very experienced CWI fabricator who is a welding lead at Genie
Industries.

If you really don't want to learn to weld then I am sure one of our
students would be happy to weld it up for you.

On Sun, 29 May 2005 00:07:42 GMT, "DeepDiver"
wrote:


Anyone who has the money, tools, and time to make those kinds of toys must
have enough disposable income to buy a decent MIG welder. Get one and you'll
be laying down very nice beads within a day.

You can get a very nice factory reconditioned Hobart 135 Amp MIG welder from
Harbor Freight for just $380:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=55236

This is a great deal and will easily pay for itself in short time.

Wirefeed (MIG or fluxcore) is good advice here.

Paying for itself wasn't on Rick's list, but limited time was. The
recommended Hobart Handler would certainly do the job for Rick. He'll
also need an autodarkening helmet, and a gas bottle and regulator if
he wants to MIG pretty, but fluxcore would work fine too.

Rick, it really is easy with the job you've described. There'll be a
chart of wire speed and volts setting, including settings for 1/8"
steel. On a straightforward job like yours, those settings will
work fine.

My daughter, who had never welded in her life, made an excellent weld
in 1/8" steel on her second try with a machine very similar to the
Hobart that Deep Diver mentioned -- a Lincoln 110-volt box. It was
flat stock to flat stock so we could test the weld. I put the test
coupon in the vise and invited her to have at it with a big hammer.
She bent the metal about 45 degrees. I then further bent it clear
over, folded nearly 180 degrees, with no weld failure.

It would take an evening or two with good instruction to learn to use
your stick welder with 7014 or 6013 reasonably well, but you really
can do this with wirefeed almost immediately -- and you'll probably
save considerable time in the process. If you send it out you must:

- find someone who can and will do it
- deliver the materials
- describe what is wanted, including dimensioned drawings
- negotiate price and terms
- pick the job up when it is done
- figure out how to correct errors in welding, design or
communications -- more trips.

Once you spend an hour or two reading the directions and making a few
practice welds with a wirefeed welder, especially given the limited
scope you've described, you'll be good to go. You won't be a
"weldor" yet, but you'll be quite able to make stuff well out of the
materials you describe.

If you can find an experienced coach to get you started, figure on
reducing that time to 30 minutes or less. I'd bet a good dinner I'd
have you making sound welds of good appearance in that time or less.

After that, you'll be able to deal with mods and additions
(afterthoughts and eau chittes) easily and immediately.

If the toy budget allows, I'd recommend a 220-volt 170 amp (or so)
machine by Lincoln, Miller or Hobart (same as Miller now) rather
than the 110-volt boxes. They're not much larger but they're
significantly more capable. The 110-volt boxes can do the job, but
they can only handle limited duty cycle with 1/8" material; after
welding for 90 seconds you must let it rest for the balance of 10
minutes. Not so with the 220 machines, and they can also weld
thicker material well.

On Sun, 29 May 2005 01:56:00 GMT, Gunner
wrote:



Everybody can weld, with the possible exception of Helen Keller. What
seems to be the problem?

Wasn't long ago that you couldn't weld well, Gunner. Remember the
errant wheel? Rick's "problem" appears to be time he's willing to
invest in learning to weld well vs. doing something else.

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 29 May 2005 00:07:42 GMT, "DeepDiver"
wrote:

This is a great deal and will easily pay for itself in short time.

Wirefeed (MIG or fluxcore) is good advice here.

Paying for itself wasn't on Rick's list, but limited time was.

Agreed, but time is money and (as you aptly pointed out) hiring the welding
job out will cost Rick both. The reason why I mentioned the return on
investment was because Rick's original post gave me the impression that cost
was a factor in his quest to weld this project.


My daughter, who had never welded in her life, made an excellent
weld in 1/8" steel on her second try with a machine very similar
to the Hobart that Deep Diver mentioned -- a Lincoln 110-volt box.
It was flat stock to flat stock so we could test the weld. I put
the test coupon in the vise and invited her to have at it with a
big hammer. She bent the metal about 45 degrees. I then further
bent it clear over, folded nearly 180 degrees, with no weld failure.

sarcasm
Impossible!!! Didn't you read in an earlier post: "MIG is only good for
light work, tends to make a brittle weld that cracks."
/sarcasm


If the toy budget allows, I'd recommend a 220-volt 170 amp (or so)
machine by Lincoln, Miller or Hobart (same as Miller now)

I'd add HTP to that line-up. I bought a 170 Amp MIG welder from HTP over 15
years ago and it continues to serve me very well.

http://www.usaweld.com/


- Michael

http://store.aglevtech.net/yhst-1586...pplmigwe1.html

I have one of these, and I really like it.

Having your own welding machine will cut time and cost DRASTICALLY.

You don't pay someone $50 an hour for work, then wait three weeks to hear it
will be ready next week.

With a few basics (most of which can be bought used for a song), you can set
up a decent operation and turn out high quality goods in a very short time.

You need a hand grinder, a drill, a cutoff saw, some clamps, some measuring
devices, a square, a bevel square, and a few other things.

If a person is creative, there is no end to the things that can be built.
If you are anal retentive, you can do things precisely. If you are just a
get her done kind of person, many things can be built in place with a very
high spread on the accuracy tolerances.

Steel prices have gone up lately. But still, you can go out and buy new
tubing, and build something so cheaply that it defies having someone else do
it. If you use used materials, or just collect pieces and parts, you can
build sculptures, birdbaths, fountains, all kinds of artistic and functional
things for around the house.

Which leads me to my next point. What will the SO have to say about all
this capital outlay? Make sure some of the first things you make are the
gazebo, park bench, security door, ornamental gate, etc, that she's been
seeing on HGTV, and you will have a devoted follower. BE SURE to mention
how this article "would" cost $300 normally, but you, and your creativity
and testosterone, did it for $50. Now, she'll go out and spend the other
$250 shopping, but there will be a lot more piece (sp?) in the house.

MIG welding is so easy that I think a monkey could do it. Hell, I see
GenXers all the time that can do it, and they make monkeys look smart.

Steve

Just where outside of Seattle are you? I am over in the Kitsap county
and between now and Halloween could help. Just not between now and
late June. Your AC stick welder would probably do just fine with the
right rod , but a MIG welder would be a better choice for if you had
one.

Dan

Sheesh, with good fitup on 1/8" wall square tubing we can have you
welding that up with your buzzbox in 60 minutes or less!! Get a NEW 5
pound box of name brand 6013 3/32" rod. Stop at the welding supplier and
get a NEW #9 lens and NEW cover (clear protective) sheets so you can see
what you are doing. Set the welder at 80 amps, keep the arc short, stick
your nose about 12" away from the arc.

Ernie L. chimed in with classes or an offer to have a student weld it up
for you. sounds like the right idea.

Rick wrote:

I am making a big prop for halloween which I want to have a frame made of 1-1/2"
square tubing with 1/8" walls. I obtained the tubing and cut the correct
lengths on my grinding wheel chop saw, debured the ends and sanded the metal
clean where I wanted to weld. I used the only welder I have, a 230 amp (max) AC
stick welder. I have now learned I can't weld.

So...I want to take these parts somewhere and get them welded. I have them all
labeled, cut to length, sanded, and with diagrams showing how they fit together.
I estimate about 20 welds, all 90 degree joints.

What am I looking at cost wise to have this assembly welded up? Will shops take
metal that you have prepped and weld it or do they want to use their own metal?
I live just outside the Seattle area.

Thanks for any help,

Rick

Which leads me to my next point. What will the SO have to say about all
this capital outlay? Make sure some of the first things you make are the
gazebo, park bench, security door, ornamental gate, etc, that she's been
seeing on HGTV, and you will have a devoted follower. BE SURE to mention
how this article "would" cost $300 normally, but you, and your creativity
and testosterone, did it for $50. Now, she'll go out and spend the other
$250 shopping, but there will be a lot more piece (sp?) in the house.

MIG welding is so easy that I think a monkey could do it. Hell, I see
GenXers all the time that can do it, and they make monkeys look smart.

Steve



The SO is not your typical SO. She is more into tools, woodworking and
metalworking than I am! This project is at least half her idea.

I am intrigued by the idea of a mig welder being so easy, but I was under
the impression that the welds were not really good. I read the story a few
months back about Gunner's tire bouncing over some powerlines while 4
stoned teenagers asked if he could do it again...

Maybe I was using the wrong stick in my AC welder...I was using an 1/8"
6013 at 80, 100, and 120 amps. After chipping away the massive slag, the
bead (if you can call it that) was only stuck to one side of the inside 90
degree
joint of the tubing. That can't be good!

Money is an issue, only because the whole project takes a lot of money and this
is one small (but important) part. I would have to *know* that mig would work
before spending $500 on a rig.

Rick

wrote in message
oups.com...
Just where outside of Seattle are you? I am over in the Kitsap county
and between now and Halloween could help. Just not between now and
late June. Your AC stick welder would probably do just fine with the
right rod , but a MIG welder would be a better choice for if you had
one.

Dan


Hi Dan,

I am out toward Monroe. I think I got my rotary converter motor from you a few
years back, right?

Still using it..works great!

I need to get this welded up sooner than late June unfortunately, but I do
appreciate the offer.

I may have a go again with the stick welder after purchasing some smaller
rods....or maybe I can rent
a MIG? at the local tool rental place and try it out...

Rick

On Sun, 29 May 2005 16:18:03 GMT, "Rick" wrote:

Which leads me to my next point. What will the SO have to say about all
this capital outlay? Make sure some of the first things you make are the
gazebo, park bench, security door, ornamental gate, etc, that she's been
seeing on HGTV, and you will have a devoted follower. BE SURE to mention
how this article "would" cost $300 normally, but you, and your creativity
and testosterone, did it for $50. Now, she'll go out and spend the other
$250 shopping, but there will be a lot more piece (sp?) in the house.

MIG welding is so easy that I think a monkey could do it. Hell, I see
GenXers all the time that can do it, and they make monkeys look smart.

Steve



The SO is not your typical SO. She is more into tools, woodworking and
metalworking than I am! This project is at least half her idea.

I am intrigued by the idea of a mig welder being so easy, but I was under
the impression that the welds were not really good. I read the story a few
months back about Gunner's tire bouncing over some powerlines while 4
stoned teenagers asked if he could do it again...

Maybe I was using the wrong stick in my AC welder...I was using an 1/8"
6013 at 80, 100, and 120 amps. After chipping away the massive slag, the
bead (if you can call it that) was only stuck to one side of the inside 90
degree
joint of the tubing. That can't be good!

Money is an issue, only because the whole project takes a lot of money and this
is one small (but important) part. I would have to *know* that mig would work
before spending $500 on a rig.

MIG will absolutely do it. So will stick, with a bit more practice.
You were running a bit cold with 1/8" 6013, even at 120 amps. Try
1/8" 7014 at about 125 amps, or the other poster's suggestion of
3/32" 6013. You might find 7014 easier because it's a "drag rod".

You'd find MIG or fluxcore wire much easier than either of these.
Set it up according to the chart, do a couple of practice welds with
those settings to learn how fast to go so you're getting good fusion,
and you'll be getting good welds. Note that polarity with fluxcore
is opposite that for MIG. Fluxcore would be a better choice for your
job with a 110-volt box because it runs hotter than MIG. You could
add gas later as you get more experience.

On Sun, 29 May 2005 16:18:03 GMT, "Rick" wrote:

Which leads me to my next point. What will the SO have to say about all
this capital outlay? Make sure some of the first things you make are the
gazebo, park bench, security door, ornamental gate, etc, that she's been
seeing on HGTV, and you will have a devoted follower. BE SURE to mention
how this article "would" cost $300 normally, but you, and your creativity
and testosterone, did it for $50. Now, she'll go out and spend the other
$250 shopping, but there will be a lot more piece (sp?) in the house.

MIG welding is so easy that I think a monkey could do it. Hell, I see
GenXers all the time that can do it, and they make monkeys look smart.

Steve



The SO is not your typical SO. She is more into tools, woodworking and
metalworking than I am! This project is at least half her idea.

I am intrigued by the idea of a mig welder being so easy, but I was under
the impression that the welds were not really good. I read the story a few
months back about Gunner's tire bouncing over some powerlines while 4
stoned teenagers asked if he could do it again...

Maybe I was using the wrong stick in my AC welder...I was using an 1/8"
6013 at 80, 100, and 120 amps. After chipping away the massive slag, the
bead (if you can call it that) was only stuck to one side of the inside 90
degree
joint of the tubing. That can't be good!

Money is an issue, only because the whole project takes a lot of money and this
is one small (but important) part. I would have to *know* that mig would work
before spending $500 on a rig.

Give me a few hours to prove it.

We have some errands to do, but I asked my wife, who has never welded
anything, if she'd be up for an experiment later.

"What kind of experiment?", she said cautiously.

I described your situation, said I'd like to have her try MIG-welding
some bits of steel together and report the results with photos.

'OH, YEAH!!!", she said" That sounds much neater than some of your
stupid experiments!"

Stay tuned.

If you were to go to a good welding store with some bits of your
steel and VISA card in hand, they would get you checked out and
kitted up in a jiffy. Ernie can undoubtedly recommend a suitable
store. It'll cost a bit more than Harbor Freight, but it may be the
best Hallowe'en investment you ever made. Minnespolis Oxygen is
such a store here, don't know about Seattle. I probably would say
get the autodark helmet from HF, though, the one that Gunner
recommends. The Jackson EQF is a very nice helmet, but it's pricey
and more than you'll need for MIG or stick.

On Sun, 29 May 2005 16:18:03 GMT, "Rick" wrote:


The SO is not your typical SO. She is more into tools, woodworking and
metalworking than I am! This project is at least half her idea.

I am intrigued by the idea of a mig welder being so easy, but I was under
the impression that the welds were not really good. I read the story a few
months back about Gunner's tire bouncing over some powerlines while 4
stoned teenagers asked if he could do it again...


LOL....

Rick...MIG is good stuff. What I did wrong, was using a machine not
meant to do what I tried to make it do. And I knew up front I was
likely pushing the envelope of both my skill level and the machine. I
tossed the dice and lost. Not something I do often, but I took a
chance because I was in a hurry. Blush...... I should mention that I
redid the project Exactly the way I did before, but used a much better
Mig welder. A used 220vt machine that I got Because I knew I was
pushing the envelope of the sorts of things I do (big iron) and that I
would run into this issue again. This time, the job went well, the
spare tire carrier has been on for a bit over 5000 miles and in fact,
I used the carrier to pick up one side of the FULLY LOADED trailer
using my overhead crane so I could change the tire with no ill
effects.

I screwed up. Pure and simple. It was not the fault of the machine,
but the fault of the operator. I asked a Yugo do do the job of a
3/4ton pickup. I now have a 3/4 ton pickup welder G and my skill
level has increased by several orders of magnitude.

Maybe I was using the wrong stick in my AC welder...I was using an 1/8"
6013 at 80, 100, and 120 amps. After chipping away the massive slag, the
bead (if you can call it that) was only stuck to one side of the inside 90
degree
joint of the tubing. That can't be good!

Its not..but its the most common problem that the beginner welder
makes. And God knows when I first started stick welding, I made most
of them. I will now stack up my welds with the best of them for solid.
Pretty...welllllllllll Ive got a long way to go.

I made my first decent aluminum TIG weld yesterday. Its an ugly ugly
thing..but when I put it in the vise and stuck a pipe wrench on the
top of the two 1/8" plates I butt welded together..it bent in an area
not close to the weld. Im self taught, using both books and the
internet as guides. Its taken me a full tank of argon so far in
nothing more than practice and experimentation..but its starting to
come together. My steel and stainless steel TIG welds, while not a
thing of beauty are looking mighty good ...good for me that is. Ive
been keeping the best of my practice pieces, marked with the dates I
did it, on a shelf below my welding bench..and I use them to review
what I was doing wrong and what I did to correct it. The first ones
are hideous as hell. Even for me..an old oilfield trash shade tree
"dauber". Perhaps its unwarranted pride on my part..but the latest
stuff looks pretty damned good to me. Some of it. The aluminum part
was kicking my ass really bad...shrug.

What you were doing wrong with the stick welder, is exactly what every
beginner does wrong..you were watching the arc and not the weld
puddle. Gods knows I did that enough times. Its fascinating to watch
that ravening sun hot bit of lighting as it melts down metal. But you
forget that thats just the tool by which you melt two pieces of metal
and fuse them together. Im sure you know that you are supposed to
watch how the puddle flows, and melts both pieces of metal together
and the trick is to make sure you are indeed melting both chunks, not
just one, while pretty much using the arc to do the job. Which is the
hard part when you are getting started.

On the other hand..my son, who unfortunately has shown little interest
in things mechanical, in 5 minutes of my tutelage, was running both
TIG and MIG welds nearly as well as I can. No preconceived notions I
suspect. My wife can also run a decent bead with MIG with about as
much training time. I managed to talk her into giving it a try..and
after much cajoling...she gave it a shot. She made the usual
mistakes, watching the arc not the puddle and as I coached her..she
started running some nice beads. Damned shame she is not interested
in doing it more often..as I could get twice as much stuff done with
her welding and me cutting and laying out.

Money is an issue, only because the whole project takes a lot of money and this
is one small (but important) part. I would have to *know* that mig would work
before spending $500 on a rig.

Rick


MIG is good stuff for the proper use. There are some really really
good welders here, and the knowlege base here has allowed a poor but
honest oilfield trash type like me, actually weld stuff the right way.
Listen to em. Then practice practice practice. The practice part is
frustrating and fun. But like learning to play the banjo G the
rewards are fantastic.

Gunner

"Considering the events of recent years,
the world has a long way to go to regain
its credibility and reputation with the US."
unknown

I did that experiment with my daughter. She is a theater type, a lot of
the scenery in pro theaters is built up out of 16ga 1" square tube. I
asked if she wanted to be able to do that kiind of work. A resounding
YES! I showed her how to design the project (some pieces are 2" shorter
than the outside dimension), hot saw to cut it, grinder to prep the
ends, flux core mig to assemble, pipe clamps to straighten things out,
and grinder to fix the mistakes. Her first project was a 12"x16"x16" box
frame for a work stool. Took 6 hours from handing her the safety glasses
to the finished frame ready for paint. Welds weren't super pretty but
the stool is still doing fine.

But I guess I shouldn't be surprised. She has done the full "Master
Electrician" gig in a theater where you have to hang and wire in a
couple hundred lights to the control board.

Don Foreman wrote:

On Sun, 29 May 2005 16:18:03 GMT, "Rick" wrote:


Which leads me to my next point. What will the SO have to say about all
this capital outlay? Make sure some of the first things you make are the
gazebo, park bench, security door, ornamental gate, etc, that she's been
seeing on HGTV, and you will have a devoted follower. BE SURE to mention
how this article "would" cost $300 normally, but you, and your creativity
and testosterone, did it for $50. Now, she'll go out and spend the other
$250 shopping, but there will be a lot more piece (sp?) in the house.

MIG welding is so easy that I think a monkey could do it. Hell, I see
GenXers all the time that can do it, and they make monkeys look smart.

Steve



The SO is not your typical SO. She is more into tools, woodworking and
metalworking than I am! This project is at least half her idea.

I am intrigued by the idea of a mig welder being so easy, but I was under
the impression that the welds were not really good. I read the story a few
months back about Gunner's tire bouncing over some powerlines while 4
stoned teenagers asked if he could do it again...

Maybe I was using the wrong stick in my AC welder...I was using an 1/8"
6013 at 80, 100, and 120 amps. After chipping away the massive slag, the
bead (if you can call it that) was only stuck to one side of the inside 90
degree
joint of the tubing. That can't be good!

Money is an issue, only because the whole project takes a lot of money and this
is one small (but important) part. I would have to *know* that mig would work
before spending $500 on a rig.


Give me a few hours to prove it.

We have some errands to do, but I asked my wife, who has never welded
anything, if she'd be up for an experiment later.

"What kind of experiment?", she said cautiously.

I described your situation, said I'd like to have her try MIG-welding
some bits of steel together and report the results with photos.

'OH, YEAH!!!", she said" That sounds much neater than some of your
stupid experiments!"

Stay tuned.

If you were to go to a good welding store with some bits of your
steel and VISA card in hand, they would get you checked out and
kitted up in a jiffy. Ernie can undoubtedly recommend a suitable
store. It'll cost a bit more than Harbor Freight, but it may be the
best Hallowe'en investment you ever made. Minnespolis Oxygen is
such a store here, don't know about Seattle. I probably would say
get the autodark helmet from HF, though, the one that Gunner
recommends. The Jackson EQF is a very nice helmet, but it's pricey
and more than you'll need for MIG or stick.

"Rick" wrote



The SO is not your typical SO. She is more into tools, woodworking and
metalworking than I am! This project is at least half her idea.

Then she will get a big kick out of welding, too.


I am intrigued by the idea of a mig welder being so easy, but I was under
the impression that the welds were not really good.

It depends on what you are going to use it for. For most tubing, they are
plenty strong. For decorative stuff, unless you load it heavily or apply
strong forces, it will hold plenty good. BUT, that is why I prefer a 220 v.
machine over a 110. The better weldor you become, the hotter you can weld.
The hotter you weld, the better the penetration and fusion.


Money is an issue, only because the whole project takes a lot of money and
this
is one small (but important) part. I would have to *know* that mig would
work
before spending $500 on a rig.

Rick


For a top of the line 220v. rig, you are talking more like a thou$and with
bottle, and everything. But, if you are only talking about decorative
ornamental metal made out of square tubing, it will be plenty good. Use
good engineering to triangulate loads, make bracing, etc.

Then, with some instruction and time, you will be making good welds that
will hold up everything you want to. If it has to support people, is a
building component, or something technical like that, you will have to have
it inspected or at least looked at by someone who knows. Or, you will end
up like Gunner's tire.

Steve

"Don Foreman" wrote

I probably would say
get the autodark helmet from HF, though, the one that Gunner
recommends. The Jackson EQF is a very nice helmet, but it's pricey
and more than you'll need for MIG or stick.


An autodark will help you weld. Buy the best you can afford. Or just start
out, and see how you like it and if you continue welding.

I have a NexGen in a Huntsman (total about $350). I have welded for 32
years now, and I like good equipment when it comes to PPE.

Personal Protective Equipment.

Don't skimp on safety, and buy some good ear plugs on a spring to keep them
hot molten metal bbs out of your eardrums. Wear them at all times when
welding. They will save some hearing, too when grinding and doing other
things. The spring makes them real easy to put on and take off.

STeve

"SteveB" wrote in message
news:98ume.1307$4p.1144@fed1read03...

It depends on what you are going to use it for. For most tubing,
they are plenty strong. For decorative stuff, unless you load it
heavily or apply strong forces, it will hold plenty good.

If it has to support people, is a building component, or something
technical like that, you will have to have it inspected or at
least looked at by someone who knows. Or, you will end up like
Gunner's tire.


Reading some of these posts (like the story of Gunner's errant spare tire),
one might get the impression that MIG welds are not strong and should only
be used for non-structural applications. I'm no welding expert, but in my
experience, that is false. Of course, a lot depends on proper engineering,
preparation, and welding technique (including the use of correctly-sized MIG
welding machine). But if done right, you'll find that a good MIG weld can be
as strong -- if not stronger -- than the pieces being welded.

Seventeen years ago, I was young (perhaps foolish) and didn't know better. I
had a car with a cracked front suspension cross-member (the result of
bottoming out at speed on a very bad road one night). This was the days
before Internet newsgroups so there was no one to tell me that MIG welds
were brittle, weak, subject to cracking, whatever. Rather than hire out the
job of fixing the broken part, I decided to buy my own MIG welder and fix it
myself. I bought a 170 Amp HTP welder (220 VAC) and welded it up. The
cross-member out-lived the car (which died many years --and many miles --
later when the engine auxiliary shaft snapped and blew a large hole in the
side of the cast-iron crankcase).

Recently, I was again doing some suspension work on another of my cars. This
time, I was trying to remove a rear control arm. The bolt that attached the
control arm to the rear axel housing had rusted tight inside the steel
sleeve of the rubber bushing which was pressed in the control arm. I applied
both penetrating oil and heat, but even my 625 ft-lbs air impact wrench
would not free the frozen bolt (part of the problem being that the rubber
bushing would absorb the torque). So I then tried a large acme screw press
(like a very beefy C-clamp), like this:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...temnumber=4065

I put so much clamping pressure on that bolt that I felt that the press was
going to fail. But the bolt refused to budge.

Finally, I got a 10-ton hydraulic "portapower" system, like this:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=44900

I took some heavy steel channel, 1/2" steel plate, and large steel tubing,
and I MIG welded a C-shaped jig to hold the hydraulic power cylinder on one
side of the bolt and a press-anvil on the other side of the bolt. I don't
know how many tons of hydraulic pressure I applied to that bolt, but after
lots of straining, it finally let loose with a big bang. All the MIG welds
on my jig held up perfectly.

The bottom line is that MIG can produce exceptionally strong joints.

- Michael

I had forgotten about meeting you at Boeing Surplus.

I looked at the picture of your weld. It looks good enough for
government work. You should try to break one ( or more of your welds
). I expect you would be surprised at how strong it is. I am always
surprised when I try to take apart something that is welded at how
little weld can be left after some grinding that keeps things from
separating.

Have a good time with your welding.


Dan

"DeepDiver" wrote

The bottom line is that MIG can produce exceptionally strong joints.

- Michael

Absotively! Root preparation, cleaning, spacing, heat, positioning,
direction of travel, and motion can get you some STRONG MIG welds.

This is why I tout the 220v. machines over the 110s. They will burn in so
you get fusion. The problem is that most people will learn how to use the
110, then think if they put enough passes down that it will hold. It will
look nice, but not hold.

And, even with the 110v. machines, if you know how to weld, and use the
proper techniques, you can get some pretty amazing strong welds.

Steve

On Sun, 29 May 2005 16:21:37 GMT, "Rick" wrote:

I am out toward Monroe.

Rick -

I'm near Mt. Vernon and I've got a little Lincoln wire feed if that
would help. I'm not much of a welder myself but your welcome to come
up and use the welder or I could give it a try if you want.

Gimme a shout via email. The drive up might be less than the cost of
renting a MIG??