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Survival Steam Engine
In article , DejaVU says...
well now, reading a computer publication today i came across another energy source...... methane. This has been done for years in places like rural india. A methane digester can provide cooking gas for several families IIRC. Also, at one time, the sewage pumps at Deer Island (boston harbor) were fueled with methane gas produced on-site. These are enormous flat radial engines made by, I think, Nordberg. Jim ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
Survival Steam Engine
On 15 Jul 2003 11:51:50 -0700, jim rozen wrote:
In article , says... ... and feed the cooked cracked grain to the hogs. They'll mask the smell. (!) Where did you grow up, anyway, Gary? First it's exploding CO2 cartidges. Then it's artillery-sized crossbows. Now this. How to keep the revenue agents in the dark... I grew up in Kentucky, and migrated to North Georgia. Both are areas with a strong tradition of partnership between the preacher and the bootlegger to keep that demon tax paid liquor at bay. Gary |
Survival Steam Engine
On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 23:11:41 GMT, (Gary Coffman)
wrote: On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 21:14:11 GMT, (John Flanagan) wrote: I figured as much. I find this drilling stuff interesting. I forget who but someone was recalling some story about droping a wrench "downhole". I never thought of that before. These deep holes it'd probably take five minutes for it to hit bottom. I can't imagine what it'd take to get it back out, big magnet and a long string.... Well, I may have mentioned dropping a wrench down a well. I did it deliberately after the squib failed to work. We had a 2.5 gallon shot down the well. One of our crews had been killed hoisting a shot out of a well to replace a faulty squib, and I didn't want to duplicate that event. So I walked over and dropped a crescent wrench down the bore. It set off the shot very nicely. The explosive is used to break up the rock to increase flow? What kind of explosive was it that a wrench falling on it would set it off??? John Please note that my return address is wrong due to the amount of junk email I get. So please respond to this message through the newsgroup. |
Survival Steam Engine
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Survival Steam Engine
Gary Coffman wrote:
On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 15:21:51 GMT, (John Flanagan) wrote: On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 23:11:41 GMT, (Gary Coffman) wrote: Well, I may have mentioned dropping a wrench down a well. I did it deliberately after the squib failed to work. We had a 2.5 gallon shot down the well. One of our crews had been killed hoisting a shot out of a well to replace a faulty squib, and I didn't want to duplicate that event. So I walked over and dropped a crescent wrench down the bore. It set off the shot very nicely. The explosive is used to break up the rock to increase flow? Yes, the idea is to create a series of micro-fractures in the vicinity of the hole to improve the infiltration of fluids. What kind of explosive was it that a wrench falling on it would set it off??? Nitroglycerin. We used 2.5 gallon shots, prepackaged in tubes kept in liquid nitrogen dewars on the truck. We'd take one out of the truck and lower it down the hole while still frozen (the stuff is pretty safe when frozen). Then we'd wait for it to thaw out and fire the squib to detonate it. But if the squib failed, you had a choice, raise the now warm nitro back up to the top of the hole to fit a new squib, or drop something down the hole and let the impact set it off. The one time it happened to us, I dropped a wrench. Gary Did you recover the wrench when it came back up? Bill K7NOM |
Survival Steam Engine
On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 23:17:54 GMT, Bill Janssen wrote:
Did you recover the wrench when it came back up? No. I don't think much of it did come back up. Gary |
Survival Steam Engine
On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 00:09:06 -0500, David L Peterson
wrote: The only criteria is that it be easy to assemble from common materials, capable of running an automotive generator (at the least) and can be done with minimal tools, or simple machine tools. If it can be scaled up for larger gennys/line shafts, that would be a plus. Thanks in advance, let the fun begin. Gunner I'd have to say that If I found myself in that situation I would also go the alcohol route. Here's a thought though. initailly if I were unprepared I'd do like someone mentioned and run like a honda generator on alcohol. But, if ou think about it modern high RPM engines will wear out, they don't use babbit bearings, hard to upkeep when you can't get new parts. I think ideal would be to revert to something like an old hit and miss engine (prefereably a pair of them so you w9ould still have power while working on one of them). With modest tools you could keep them running indefinitely. Probably could be made more efficient, adjust the compression ratio, maybe modern IC driven ignition (could always keep the old magnito on hand). Probably be easier to muffle the exhaust, an imprtant thing when you don't want to advertise that you have power. By the way, since we would be talking about a stationary power plant you would want to go water cooled. Could circulate from the hopper or water jacket for domestic hot water or help heat your mash. Dave |
Survival Steam Engine
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Survival Steam Engine
On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 23:38:43 -0500, David L Peterson
wrote: initailly if I were unprepared I'd do like someone mentioned and run like a honda generator on alcohol. You from like, the valley :^)? John Please note that my return address is wrong due to the amount of junk email I get. So please respond to this message through the newsgroup. |
Survival Steam Engine
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Survival Steam Engine
Gunner wrote in message . ..
On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 23:44:39 GMT, "R. Zimmerman" wrote: A waste of time if you already have a gasoline engine. The engine could be adapted to run on all kinds of gaseous products such as coal gas or methane from sewage/manure. Better to make a gas producer than a boiler. How hard would it be to make a solar flash boiler, for those of us in the Southwest/South? Gunner Randy "Gunner" wrote in message .. . A thread came up a day or three ago, about building some sort of motor to run a small generator or a belt to supply power to :stuff: in either remote locations or in the event of a long term power failure. A serious question to the group....in your individual opinions, does anyone have any suggestions for a simply made from common materials, with minimal machining, steam engine? Boilers are another issue of course..and suggestions on that would be nice as well. Would it be possible to convert an internal combustion engine, for example a VW engine, to run on steam? Given the numbers of steamers here on RCM, and itinerant inventors, somebody should have some ideas. Think of it as Junk Yard Wars..... The only criteria is that it be easy to assemble from common materials, capable of running an automotive generator (at the least) and can be done with minimal tools, or simple machine tools. If it can be scaled up for larger gennys/line shafts, that would be a plus. Actually, I have been thonking about this since it first came up. A mVW, or other small(sort of) *air cooled* engine, would be the best base. Feedingh steam through the intake and outlet valves, while venting through the spark plug hole. They could probbaly be easily converted from a _4_ cycle to dual 2 cycle engine. Since the older engines have the valves easily accessible, rigging something to open a third (plug hole) valve, would be easier. For thos who don't know, can't visualize it: 1)intake stroke (pull in fuel air mix, down), 2)compression stroke with plug firing (up), 3)power stroke (down), 4) exhaust stroke (up). With steam, it would be 1)steam enters through intake manifold(power stroke, down), 2)exhaust stroke (up) through sp hole & valve, 3)steam through exhaust manifold (power, down), repeat of 2. POwer on every stroke, with nearly simultaneous opposing power strokes. Thanks in advance, let the fun begin. Gunner |
Survival Steam Engine
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Survival Steam Engine
"David L Peterson" wrote in message ... On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 00:09:06 -0500, David L Peterson wrote: The only criteria is that it be easy to assemble from common materials, capable of running an automotive generator (at the least) and can be done with minimal tools, or simple machine tools. If it can be scaled up for larger gennys/line shafts, that would be a plus. Thanks in advance, let the fun begin. Gunner I'd have to say that If I found myself in that situation I would also go the alcohol route. Here's a thought though. initailly if I were unprepared I'd do like someone mentioned and run like a honda generator on alcohol. But, if ou think about it modern high RPM engines will wear out, they don't use babbit bearings, hard to upkeep when you can't get new parts. I think ideal would be to revert to something like an old hit and miss engine (prefereably a pair of them so you w9ould still have power while working on one of them). With modest tools you could keep them running indefinitely. Probably could be made more efficient, adjust the compression ratio, maybe modern IC driven ignition (could always keep the old magnito on hand). The old magneto or point distributor would be the way to go. I would want to stay away from any type of electronic ignition system. We are talking survival here and if it came to nuclear weapons then everything with an electronic ignition wouldn't work. Also it wouldn't help to go down to the parts store, because the magnetic flux would have ruined all the new parts sitting on the shelf. Any pre 1972 car with points would quit when the blast went off, but all you would have to do is restart the engine. Anything newer would need a tow truck to get it home. Assuming you could find a tow truck that still ran. I ran into a guy who had a real survivalist mentality and all his cars and trucks were diesels. He also said he had 13,000 gallons of heating oil stored up to run them on. Said he topped off his tanks every year in the spring when heating oil prices went down. I have been wondering how hard it would be to make a press to get oil from corn or beans to use for fuel in a diesel engine? Any one ever try this? Richard W. |
Survival Steam Engine
On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 22:12:06 -0700, "Richard W."
wrote: "David L Peterson" wrote in message .. . On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 00:09:06 -0500, David L Peterson wrote: The only criteria is that it be easy to assemble from common materials, capable of running an automotive generator (at the least) and can be done with minimal tools, or simple machine tools. If it can be scaled up for larger gennys/line shafts, that would be a plus. Thanks in advance, let the fun begin. Gunner I'd have to say that If I found myself in that situation I would also go the alcohol route. Here's a thought though. initailly if I were unprepared I'd do like someone mentioned and run like a honda generator on alcohol. But, if ou think about it modern high RPM engines will wear out, they don't use babbit bearings, hard to upkeep when you can't get new parts. I think ideal would be to revert to something like an old hit and miss engine (prefereably a pair of them so you w9ould still have power while working on one of them). With modest tools you could keep them running indefinitely. Probably could be made more efficient, adjust the compression ratio, maybe modern IC driven ignition (could always keep the old magnito on hand). The old magneto or point distributor would be the way to go. I would want to stay away from any type of electronic ignition system. We are talking survival here and if it came to nuclear weapons then everything with an electronic ignition wouldn't work. Also it wouldn't help to go down to the parts store, because the magnetic flux would have ruined all the new parts sitting on the shelf. Any pre 1972 car with points would quit when the blast went off, but all you would have to do is restart the engine. Anything newer would need a tow truck to get it home. Assuming you could find a tow truck that still ran. I'm thinking that if I was close enough for this to be a problem I wouldn't be worrying about power for very long. :) Actually, I'm not certain, but I'm thinking that using a power transistor driven by the points to drive the coil (I've seen schematics of this kind of thing for a hotter spark) would be robust enough to survive. What blows? Any diode type junction rectify the too much power and blow? you just talking normal nuclear bombs or EMP weapons? I'm not sure any coils or condensors would survive an EMP event. Anyone know the details of this stuff? Richard W. |
Survival Steam Engine
On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 10:17:47 GMT, "Vaughn"
wrote: "Walter Daniels" wrote in message om... Actually, I have been thonking about this since it first came up. A mVW, or other small(sort of) *air cooled* engine, would be the best base. Feedingh steam through the intake and outlet valves, while venting through the spark plug hole. The intake valve is facing the wrong way so this scheme would only work for very low steam pressures. Think about it; the valve spring would have to be strong enough to hold the intake valve shut against steam pressure. That is why most such schemes put steam into the spark plug hole. Either way, you really have to do some design work on the intake valve problem to make a practical engine, not as easy as just changing the cam. I'm pretty sure you could ever get the engine to be a two stroke without regrinding the camshaft no matter which way you do it. The timing just isn't right. Intake opens on a downstroke while the exhaust opens on an upstroke. You can switch this around but they'd one would always be wrong. John Please note that my return address is wrong due to the amount of junk email I get. So please respond to this message through the newsgroup. |
Survival Steam Engine
On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 00:20:51 -0500, David L Peterson wrote:
On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 22:12:06 -0700, "Richard W." wrote: The old magneto or point distributor would be the way to go. I would want to stay away from any type of electronic ignition system. We are talking survival here and if it came to nuclear weapons then everything with an electronic ignition wouldn't work. Also it wouldn't help to go down to the parts store, because the magnetic flux would have ruined all the new parts sitting on the shelf. Any pre 1972 car with points would quit when the blast went off, but all you would have to do is restart the engine. Anything newer would need a tow truck to get it home. Assuming you could find a tow truck that still ran. I'm thinking that if I was close enough for this to be a problem I wouldn't be worrying about power for very long. :) Actually, I'm not certain, but I'm thinking that using a power transistor driven by the points to drive the coil (I've seen schematics of this kind of thing for a hotter spark) would be robust enough to survive. What blows? Any diode type junction rectify the too much power and blow? you just talking normal nuclear bombs or EMP weapons? I'm not sure any coils or condensors would survive an EMP event. Anyone know the details of this stuff? EMP is the induced surge that causes a static crash in an AM radio when there is a nearby lightning strike (or other high current arc event). If the lightning strike is very nearby, the EMP will induce a surge on any long exposed wiring (antenna) large enough to possibly puncture solid state device junctions. Just think of nuclear EMP (NEMP) as a very large lightning bolt. If a 1 MT device is detonated nearby, the NEMP will be similar, though on the order of about 10 times larger, to an ordinary nearby lightning strike. For ground bursts and low altitude bursts, the destructive magnitude NEMP effects will be limited to a radius not much larger than the blast radius, so worrying about NEMP effects is pretty much moot. However, a high altitude burst is a bit different. Because the mean free path of the Compton electrons generated by the detonation is *much* longer at high altitudes, the magnitude of the pulse only decreases inversely linearly with distance instead of inverely to the square of distance (line coupling instead of point coupling). That means much longer range effects are possible. In other words, a detonation at a 200 km altitude will produce NEMP effects on the ground similar to those of a low altitude or ground burst device of similar magnitude 1.41 km away. Still, the receiving antenna (exposed wiring) has to have enough capture area to gather significant energy from the NEMP. The Navy operates (or did operate in 1988) a NEMP simulator to test whole ship naval electronic systems. The ARRL (amateur radio organization) got permission to test some typical amateur radio installations in the simulator. They found damage to the front ends of HF transceivers when connected to 80 m halfwave dipole antennas (about 136 feet), but no damage at all to handheld transceivers and auto mounted VHF mobile rigs when the exposed wiring lengths did not exceed 1 meter. What this says to us is that unless the equipment is connected to exposed wiring of significant length, the chance of damage, outside the blast radius of the generating detonation, is slight. The scare stories about every auto, and every stored electronic auto part, being destroyed by NEMP are just scare stories based on ignorance of the physics of NEMP (and electromagnetic waves in general). Note, though, that the possibility of damage to the power grid, and the telecommunications networks, is very real. That's because they have a huge amount of exposed wiring to act as antennas, so their capture area for the NEMP energy is also huge. So they have to take extraordinary measures to protect connected equipment against EMP. These measures include wiring practices, use of single point grounds, gas discharge shunt protectors, etc. None of that is a concern for electronics which is not connected to exposed wiring which can form an antenna with a large capture area, however. It simply intercepts too little energy from the pulse to do any damage. Gary |
Survival Steam Engine
"Richard W." wrote:
"David L Peterson" wrote in message ... On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 00:09:06 -0500, David L Peterson wrote: The only criteria is that it be easy to assemble from common materials, capable of running an automotive generator (at the least) and can be done with minimal tools, or simple machine tools. If it can be scaled up for larger gennys/line shafts, that would be a plus. Thanks in advance, let the fun begin. Gunner I'd have to say that If I found myself in that situation I would also go the alcohol route. Here's a thought though. initailly if I were unprepared I'd do like someone mentioned and run like a honda generator on alcohol. But, if ou think about it modern high RPM engines will wear out, they don't use babbit bearings, hard to upkeep when you can't get new parts. I think ideal would be to revert to something like an old hit and miss engine (prefereably a pair of them so you w9ould still have power while working on one of them). With modest tools you could keep them running indefinitely. Probably could be made more efficient, adjust the compression ratio, maybe modern IC driven ignition (could always keep the old magnito on hand). The old magneto or point distributor would be the way to go. I would want to stay away from any type of electronic ignition system. We are talking survival here and if it came to nuclear weapons then everything with an electronic ignition wouldn't work. Also it wouldn't help to go down to the parts store, because the magnetic flux would have ruined all the new parts sitting on the shelf. Any pre 1972 car with points would quit when the blast went off, but all you would have to do is restart the engine. Anything newer would need a tow truck to get it home. Assuming you could find a tow truck that still ran. I ran into a guy who had a real survivalist mentality and all his cars and trucks were diesels. He also said he had 13,000 gallons of heating oil stored up to run them on. Said he topped off his tanks every year in the spring when heating oil prices went down. I have been wondering how hard it would be to make a press to get oil from corn or beans to use for fuel in a diesel engine? Any one ever try this? Richard W. For corn or sunflower oil - ask the French - they grow millions of acres of the plants for cooking oil. I think plenty use it in their cars, as most of France uses diesel, not petrol in cars. They don't tax it like we do :( There have been reports in the press and on TV of folk in South Wales using waste cooking oil mixed with their diesel. It was found out by the exhaust smell! The tax authorities are NOT amused, and there was talk of the people being prosecuted for tax evasion.. Dave. |
Survival Steam Engine
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Survival Steam Engine
Gary Coffman wrote:
Note, though, that the possibility of damage to the power grid, and the telecommunications networks, is very real. That's because they have a huge amount of exposed wiring to act as antennas, so their capture area for the NEMP energy is also huge. So they have to take extraordinary measures to protect connected equipment against EMP. These measures include wiring practices, use of single point grounds, gas discharge shunt protectors, etc. I even wonder if it's an issue with the power grid. It's designed to recover from a direct lightning strike. Your point about the capture area is well taken, but I'd like to see a simulation before I'd assume that an NEMP would do permanent damage. |
Survival Steam Engine
"John Flanagan" wrote in message ... On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 10:17:47 GMT, "Vaughn" wrote: "Walter Daniels" wrote in message om... Actually, I have been thonking about this since it first came up. A mVW, or other small(sort of) *air cooled* engine, would be the best base. Feedingh steam through the intake and outlet valves, while venting through the spark plug hole. The intake valve is facing the wrong way so this scheme would only work for very low steam pressures. Think about it; the valve spring would have to be strong enough to hold the intake valve shut against steam pressure. That is why most such schemes put steam into the spark plug hole. Either way, you really have to do some design work on the intake valve problem to make a practical engine, not as easy as just changing the cam. I'm pretty sure you could ever get the engine to be a two stroke without regrinding the camshaft no matter which way you do it. The timing just isn't right. Intake opens on a downstroke while the exhaust opens on an upstroke. You can switch this around but they'd one would always be wrong. Change the timing sprocket to 1-to-1, only use the exhaust valve, use the exhaust manifold exactly the way it was intended, and you have fixed much of THAT problem, but you are still left with the intake valve situation; neither of the existing valves is really suitable for that job because they are designed to hold pressure INSIDE the cylinder, not hold it out. Perhaps an electrically-operated valve connected to the spark plug hole? Vaughn Vaughn John Please note that my return address is wrong due to the amount of junk email I get. So please respond to this message through the newsgroup. |
Survival Steam Engine
On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 16:25:02 -0700, Jim Stewart wrote:
Gary Coffman wrote: Note, though, that the possibility of damage to the power grid, and the telecommunications networks, is very real. That's because they have a huge amount of exposed wiring to act as antennas, so their capture area for the NEMP energy is also huge. So they have to take extraordinary measures to protect connected equipment against EMP. These measures include wiring practices, use of single point grounds, gas discharge shunt protectors, etc. I even wonder if it's an issue with the power grid. It's designed to recover from a direct lightning strike. Your point about the capture area is well taken, but I'd like to see a simulation before I'd assume that an NEMP would do permanent damage. The grid is designed to be tolerant of lightning strikes. But a 200 km altitude NEMP detonation would cause the grid to face the equivalent of *simultaneous* lightning strikes every 1.4 km along its length. I don't think the grid is up to handling *that* level of surge gracefully. Gary |
Survival Steam Engine
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Survival Steam Engine
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Survival Steam Engine
On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 16:25:02 -0700, Jim Stewart
wrote: Gary Coffman wrote: Note, though, that the possibility of damage to the power grid, and the telecommunications networks, is very real. That's because they have a huge amount of exposed wiring to act as antennas, so their capture area for the NEMP energy is also huge. So they have to take extraordinary measures to protect connected equipment against EMP. These measures include wiring practices, use of single point grounds, gas discharge shunt protectors, etc. I even wonder if it's an issue with the power grid. It's designed to recover from a direct lightning strike. Your point about the capture area is well taken, but I'd like to see a simulation before I'd assume that an NEMP would do permanent damage. That was my thought. I have a surge protector on my computer that has survived numerous lighting strikes that have blown out other protectors used by roommates (mine is APC, really like it). Is an EMP going to put more energy or higher voltage into the power lines than a direct lightning strike? John Please note that my return address is wrong due to the amount of junk email I get. So please respond to this message through the newsgroup. |
Survival Steam Engine
On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 22:17:42 +0000 (UTC), spitfire2
wrote: For corn or sunflower oil - ask the French - they grow millions of acres of the plants for cooking oil. I think plenty use it in their cars, as most of France uses diesel, not petrol in cars. They don't tax it like we do :( There have been reports in the press and on TV of folk in South Wales using waste cooking oil mixed with their diesel. It was found out by the exhaust smell! The tax authorities are NOT amused, and there was talk of the people being prosecuted for tax evasion.. Yea, why does gas cost $4/gal in England? It ain't because their crude oil costs are higher. Walked into a shop in Ireland once looking for a NiMH charger, my 60Hz unit fried on the stepped down 50Hz power. Got into a huge discussion about the "value added" tax after I was shocked at how high it was. I said to him, "You know that's why America started the revolution". He ended up not charging me any tax. I came away with the feeling that there's a lot of that going around. John Please note that my return address is wrong due to the amount of junk email I get. So please respond to this message through the newsgroup. |
Survival Steam Engine
On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 08:37:58 +0100, Mark Rand wrote:
On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 00:47:49 GMT, (Gary Coffman) wrote: The grid is designed to be tolerant of lightning strikes. But a 200 km altitude NEMP detonation would cause the grid to face the equivalent of *simultaneous* lightning strikes every 1.4 km along its length. I don't think the grid is up to handling *that* level of surge gracefully. Gary Given that every insulator on pylons and poles has an attached spark gap, I see no particular reason why there should be permanent damage. YMMV :-) It isn't a matter of permanent damage to the wires and insulators. The surge is so pervasive that it trips out grid breakers and interties all over the network. In the 1950s, the US conducted a high altitude nuclear test in the Pacific. It knocked out the electrical and phone systems in Hawaii. Fortunately there was virtually no solid state equipment connected to the grid in those days, so it was more of a nuisance than a serious matter in terms of damaged electronic equipment. Gary |
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Survival Steam Engine
Yea, why does gas cost $4/gal in England? It ain't because their
crude oil costs are higher. To pay for their "free" health care. -- Ron Thompson On the Beautiful Mississippi Gulf Coast USA http://www.plansandprojects.com Where did everyone go? Oh, yeah. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/castinghobby/ Y'all come, ya hear? ******* |
Survival Steam Engine
On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 08:54:59 -0400, Tom Quackenbush
wrote: On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 12:39:14 GMT, (John Flanagan) wrote: SNIP Yea, why does gas cost $4/gal in England? It ain't because their crude oil costs are higher. Walked into a shop in Ireland once looking for a NiMH charger, my 60Hz unit fried on the stepped down 50Hz power. Got into a huge discussion about the "value added" tax after I was shocked at how high it was. I said to him, "You know that's why America started the revolution". He ended up not charging me any tax. I came away with the feeling that there's a lot of that going around. Ah, for the good old days, when we could blame our exorbitant taxes on England! You can say that again, time for a second revolution me thinks. John Please note that my return address is wrong due to the amount of junk email I get. So please respond to this message through the newsgroup. |
Survival Steam Engine
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Survival Steam Engine
On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 11:32:29 -0500, "Ron Thompson"
wrote: Yea, why does gas cost $4/gal in England? It ain't because their crude oil costs are higher. To pay for their "free" health care. Yea, that and all the other free things socialism provides. John Please note that my return address is wrong due to the amount of junk email I get. So please respond to this message through the newsgroup. |
Survival Steam Engine
"John Flanagan" wrote in message
... On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 16:12:35 GMT, (Gary Coffman) wrote: VAT (sales tax) isn't the problem. At least it is a fair tax. The problem is that instead of using it to replace other less fair forms of taxation, they levy every other sort of tax too. So they wind up grossly overtaxed compared to the US. (Those of us who consider the US to be grossly overtaxed find the level of European taxation to be simply unbelieveable.) Unbelieveable is the least of it. What I find outrageous is all the hidden taxes, which I think you were alluding to. When I pay "X" dollars ofr "X" product how much of that price is tax? Who knows. Vote for me when I run for president and we'll end all the hidden tax crap. For a real eye-opener, John, take a look at the taxes (income, corporate, value-added or equivalent) of the US and our major trading partners, which are mostly advanced economies. You'll find that our total taxes are so close to theirs, overall, that you'll probably be shocked. Finland, France, Italy, and one or two others are quite a bit higher than us, but most are fairly close. Even China has almost the same basic tax structure and percentages overall. (BTW, to figure out where we are without a VAT, consider that our state and local sales taxes are close to the same thing, although much lower in percentage. Italy's VAT is the highest or close to it, at something like 22%. Most of Europe is under 20%. China is 17%. But here's the kicker: When you have a VAT and your trading partner doesn't, like the US, your VAT amounts to an export subsidy that you don't have to declare. If this is confusing, I'll explain.) Then take a look at all of those countries with really low taxes, and think about how much it's done for them. They're mostly the Third-World ****pots where you may get one good meal a day and where economic opportunity means a chance to set up a roadside stand selling exotic roadkill. g This tax business may require further thought, after all... -- Ed Huntress (remove "3" from email address for email reply) |
Survival Steam Engine
"John Flanagan" wrote in message
... You can say that again, time for a second revolution me thinks. Gonna mobilize an RCM revolutionist party? "Mr. President, that group of old folks is outside shaking their canes again" :-P Tim -- In the immortal words of Ned Flanders: "No foot longs!" Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms |
Survival Steam Engine
On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 04:36:43 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote: (BTW, to figure out where we are without a VAT, consider that our state and local sales taxes are close to the same thing, although much lower in percentage. Italy's VAT is the highest or close to it, at something like 22%. Most of Europe is under 20%. China is 17%. But here's the kicker: When you have a VAT and your trading partner doesn't, like the US, your VAT amounts to an export subsidy that you don't have to declare. If this is confusing, I'll explain.) What you're saying is the the exporting country looses revenue because it's taxes are not in the production of the item but in it's sale, a tax not collected since it was not a retail sale? John Please note that my return address is wrong due to the amount of junk email I get. So please respond to this message through the newsgroup. |
Survival Steam Engine
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Survival Steam Engine
Gunner wrote in message . ..
snip Would it be possible to convert an internal combustion engine, for example a VW engine, to run on steam? snip Here is an example of a conversion: http://www.pcez.com/~artemis/NWSSBste.htm |
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