"Ignoramus22732" wrote in message
...
I am demolishing a huge 8 kVa UPS. Lots of nice wires, screws etc.

It has a large transformer, it weighs around 200 lbs. It comes from a
that 8 KVA Ferrups UPS. There is a super heavy square shaped copper
wire on it, which, I fancy, could sell for some money. This wire is
something like 3x8 mm in cross section. Very heavy stuff. So, if I
somehow manage to pull the transformer apart, I would, first, able to
throw the steel part to garbage, and second, to get and sell copper
wire. i would also keep some of this copper wire for home uses such as
grounding wire for my generator.

Without taking it apart I will not be able to do anything with this
monstrosity, not even throw it away.

This is a specialty transformer with lots of contacts, so I do not
think that I could sell it. (another, smaller like 50 lbs transformer
is an isolation transformer which I hope to sell for at least
something. Also, there are 8 1.2 farad capacitors)

So... How do I take it apart? It was assembled from steel plates, can
it be therefore disassembled?

i

Here in upstate NY, an entire lake was contaminated with PCBs by some guy
"salvaging" transformers at the shoreline. The fish are no longer safe to
eat. You may want to investigate further what may be inside that transformer
of yours before disassembling it. Perhaps your state's environmental
conservation department, or local department of solid waste could assist in
finding out more. Or, the manufacturer.

"Doug Kanter" wrote:

Here in upstate NY, an entire lake was contaminated with PCBs by some guy
"salvaging" transformers at the shoreline. The fish are no longer safe to
eat. You may want to investigate further what may be inside that
transformer
of yours before disassembling it. Perhaps your state's environmental
conservation department, or local department of solid waste could assist
in
finding out more. Or, the manufacturer.

How many transformers do you have in your house, Doug?
How many of those contain PCBs?
What types of transformers used PCBs, and what was the purpose for the PCBs?

Jon

On 1/3/2005 1:37 PM US(ET), Jon Danniken took fingers to keys, and typed
the following:

"Doug Kanter" wrote:


Here in upstate NY, an entire lake was contaminated with PCBs by some guy
"salvaging" transformers at the shoreline. The fish are no longer safe to
eat. You may want to investigate further what may be inside that


transformer


of yours before disassembling it. Perhaps your state's environmental
conservation department, or local department of solid waste could assist


in


finding out more. Or, the manufacturer.



How many transformers do you have in your house, Doug?
How many of those contain PCBs?
What types of transformers used PCBs, and what was the purpose for the PCBs?

Jon

http://www.ehso.com/PCB_App_A.htm

--
Bill

"Jon Danniken" wrote in message
...
"Doug Kanter" wrote:

Here in upstate NY, an entire lake was contaminated with PCBs by some guy
"salvaging" transformers at the shoreline. The fish are no longer safe to
eat. You may want to investigate further what may be inside that
transformer
of yours before disassembling it. Perhaps your state's environmental
conservation department, or local department of solid waste could assist
in
finding out more. Or, the manufacturer.

How many transformers do you have in your house, Doug?
How many of those contain PCBs?
What types of transformers used PCBs, and what was the purpose for the
PCBs?

Jon


Question 1: Doesn't matter. I have no intention of disassembling them.

Question 2: Probably none, but none of the transformers in my home are older
than 3-4 years, except the tiny one that handles the doorbell. I doubt PCB's
are permitted in small household transformers at this stage, considering
what we know about them.

Question 3: The oil in older, larger transformers was there for either
cooling or insulation - I don't recall, and it doesn't matter, since it's
just a point of interest. But, the PCBs were there as a byproduct, not
because they had a purpose.

What's YOUR point? That, knowing what we do about these chemicals, we should
be stupid, pretend the knowledge doesn't exist, and be careless?

"Doug Kanter" wrote:
"Jon Danniken" wrote:
"Doug Kanter" wrote:

Here in upstate NY, an entire lake was contaminated with PCBs by some
guy
"salvaging" transformers at the shoreline. The fish are no longer safe
to
eat. You may want to investigate further what may be inside that
transformer
of yours before disassembling it. Perhaps your state's environmental
conservation department, or local department of solid waste could
assist
in
finding out more. Or, the manufacturer.

How many transformers do you have in your house, Doug?
How many of those contain PCBs?
What types of transformers used PCBs, and what was the purpose for the
PCBs?

Jon


Question 1: Doesn't matter. I have no intention of disassembling them.

Question 2: Probably none, but none of the transformers in my home are
older
than 3-4 years, except the tiny one that handles the doorbell. I doubt
PCB's
are permitted in small household transformers at this stage, considering
what we know about them.

Question 3: The oil in older, larger transformers was there for either
cooling or insulation - I don't recall, and it doesn't matter, since it's
just a point of interest. But, the PCBs were there as a byproduct, not
because they had a purpose.

What's YOUR point? That, knowing what we do about these chemicals, we
should
be stupid, pretend the knowledge doesn't exist, and be careless?

My point is that I suspected you of being a reactionary man who is unable to
consider a topic rationally, based upon the facts in evidence, without
launching into a pre-programmed tirade based upon emotional supposition and
lack of knowledge.

That you are unwilling to answer the very basic questions that I asked you
WRT transformers further demonstrates this, and I thank you for further
revealing yourself with your response.

I can't "fix" the problems that you seem determined to expose to the world,
Doug,, but perhaps you would be a bit better off it you would at least
educate yourself a bit before exposing your ignorance in any particular area
of knowledge.

Of course, you might very well enjoy espousing your ignorance to the world;
it seems to be a popular pastime with your type.

Jon

"Doug Kanter" wrote:

Question 3: The oil in older, larger transformers was there for either
cooling or insulation - I don't recall, and it doesn't matter, since it's
just a point of interest. But, the PCBs were there as a byproduct, not
because they had a purpose.

Nope. The chemicals were there to facilitate heat transfer,
especially in larger grid transformers. Needless to say,
non-conductive liquids with a high boiling point are required for the
task.

http://www.ehso.com/EHSO_PCB.htm

Characteristics and Uses of PCBs

PCBs belong to a family of organic compounds known as chlorinated
hydrocarbons. Key characteristics include: high boiling point, high
degree of chemical stability, low flammability, and low electric
conductivity. Between 1926-29 and 1977, PCB-containing products were
manufactured for use in applications where stable, fire-resistant,
heat-transfer properties were demanded. The most extensive use of PCBs
occurred in dielectric fluids. Such fluids typically have the
following characteristics: a heavy oil appearance, high boiling point,
high chemical stability, high flash point, low electrical
conductivity, and low water solubility. PCBs were also used as
plasticizers and additives in lubricating and cutting fluids. Most
PCBs were sold for use as dielectric fluids (insulating liquids) in
electric transformers and capacitors. Other uses included heat
transfer fluid, hydraulic fluid, dye carriers in carbonless copy
paper, plasticizers in paints, adhesives, and caulking compounds, and
filters in investment casting wax. Although PCBs are no longer
commercially made in the United States, many electric transformers and
capacitors once filled with PCBs are still in service. Additionally,
PCBs currently are being inadvertently produced as byproducts during
the manufacture of certain organic chemicals. PCB Manufacturers and
Trade Names lists some of the manufacturers, who made PCBs and the
trade names of their products.

Why Are PCBs Harmful to Human Health and the Environment
When released into the environment, PCBs do not easily break apart and
form new chemical arrangements (i.e., they are not readily
biodegradable). Instead they persist for many years, bioaccumulate,
and bioconcentrate in organisms. Well documented tests on laboratory
animals show that various levels of PCBs cause reproductive effects,
gastric disorders, skin lesions, and cancerous tumors. Exposure to
PCBs in humans can cause chloracne (a painful, disfiguring skin
ailment), liver damage, nausea, dizziness, eye irritation, and
bronchitis.

"Jon Danniken" wrote in message
...
"Doug Kanter" wrote:
"Jon Danniken" wrote:
"Doug Kanter" wrote:

Here in upstate NY, an entire lake was contaminated with PCBs by some
guy
"salvaging" transformers at the shoreline. The fish are no longer safe
to
eat. You may want to investigate further what may be inside that
transformer
of yours before disassembling it. Perhaps your state's environmental
conservation department, or local department of solid waste could
assist
in
finding out more. Or, the manufacturer.

How many transformers do you have in your house, Doug?
How many of those contain PCBs?
What types of transformers used PCBs, and what was the purpose for the
PCBs?

Jon


Question 1: Doesn't matter. I have no intention of disassembling them.

Question 2: Probably none, but none of the transformers in my home are
older
than 3-4 years, except the tiny one that handles the doorbell. I doubt
PCB's
are permitted in small household transformers at this stage, considering
what we know about them.

Question 3: The oil in older, larger transformers was there for either
cooling or insulation - I don't recall, and it doesn't matter, since it's
just a point of interest. But, the PCBs were there as a byproduct, not
because they had a purpose.

What's YOUR point? That, knowing what we do about these chemicals, we
should
be stupid, pretend the knowledge doesn't exist, and be careless?

My point is that I suspected you of being a reactionary man who is unable
to
consider a topic rationally, based upon the facts in evidence, without
launching into a pre-programmed tirade based upon emotional supposition
and
lack of knowledge.

That you are unwilling to answer the very basic questions that I asked you
WRT transformers further demonstrates this, and I thank you for further
revealing yourself with your response.

I can't "fix" the problems that you seem determined to expose to the
world,
Doug,, but perhaps you would be a bit better off it you would at least
educate yourself a bit before exposing your ignorance in any particular
area
of knowledge.

Of course, you might very well enjoy espousing your ignorance to the
world;
it seems to be a popular pastime with your type.

Jon


Reactionary? Nonsense. The OP stated that he has a transformer weighing
around 200 lbs. While this does not necessarily mean it's different from the
one in my furnace, dishwasher or doorbell, it also does not mean it's the
same. Neither you nor I know exactly what he has. You know that.

As far as "rational", I'm sure you're aware that there's an entire
generation that has no idea what sort of chemistry experiments went on in
this country before people finally woke up. Perhaps the Love Canal situation
was the wakeup call. It's entirely possible that the OP had NO idea about
what he might have in his possession.

Why do you have a problem with suggesting that he proceed with caution? Do
you believe that all the research into the dangers of PCBs are junk science?

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

snip-------

Question 3: The oil in older, larger transformers was there for either
cooling or insulation - I don't recall, and it doesn't matter, since it's
just a point of interest. But, the PCBs were there as a byproduct, not
because they had a purpose.

They were intentionally used. As I understand it, PCB revolutionized the
transformer and capacitor industry when they were introduced. I seem to
recall that they were an excellent dielectric and had a very high flash
point, so fire hazards were reduced. They were a purpose made substance
sold under various trade names.

What's YOUR point? That, knowing what we do about these chemicals, we
should
be stupid, pretend the knowledge doesn't exist, and be careless?

All you have to do is end up with a PCB filled transformer as I did for this
to come directly in to focus. Years ago I was given a "free" induction
furnace power supply. The donor had me sign a waiver because the supply
had a mercury spark gap included, but failed to mention that the
transformer, along with the huge capacitors, were filled with PCB's. The
law as stated at that time dictated that if any PCB filled device started
leaking, it was mandatory for the item to be disposed of by within thirty
day by proper procedures. I had to transport the power supply from one
state to another, and when it got there there were multiple wet spots from
the escaping PCB. Long story short, I talked to EPA to find out where I
stood and found out that it was illegal to dispose of such items by passing
them on to others, so I called the "donor" and informed him that he had a
serious problem on his hands. Disposal cost ran right at $3,000 for 800
pounds of transformer and capacitors, which was born by the donor. Don't
take PCB's lightly.

Harold

"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

snip-------

Question 3: The oil in older, larger transformers was there for either
cooling or insulation - I don't recall, and it doesn't matter, since it's
just a point of interest. But, the PCBs were there as a byproduct, not
because they had a purpose.

They were intentionally used. As I understand it, PCB revolutionized the
transformer and capacitor industry when they were introduced. I seem to
recall that they were an excellent dielectric and had a very high flash
point, so fire hazards were reduced. They were a purpose made
substance
sold under various trade names.

What's YOUR point? That, knowing what we do about these chemicals, we
should
be stupid, pretend the knowledge doesn't exist, and be careless?

All you have to do is end up with a PCB filled transformer as I did for
this
to come directly in to focus. Years ago I was given a "free" induction
furnace power supply. The donor had me sign a waiver because the supply
had a mercury spark gap included, but failed to mention that the
transformer, along with the huge capacitors, were filled with PCB's.
The
law as stated at that time dictated that if any PCB filled device started
leaking, it was mandatory for the item to be disposed of by within thirty
day by proper procedures. I had to transport the power supply from one
state to another, and when it got there there were multiple wet spots from
the escaping PCB. Long story short, I talked to EPA to find out where
I
stood and found out that it was illegal to dispose of such items by
passing
them on to others, so I called the "donor" and informed him that he had a
serious problem on his hands. Disposal cost ran right at $3,000 for 800
pounds of transformer and capacitors, which was born by the donor.
Don't
take PCB's lightly.

Harold



You mean all the research was not fiction created by left-wing atheist
tree-hugging hippies? :-)

"Ignoramus22732" wrote in message
...
I have some large capacitors also, how do I know if they have PCBs?

i
These are likely candidates for PCB, depending on their age. They should be
labelled with a date code; anything prior to 1973 will contain PCB.

If you care to post all the capacitor label information here, I can probably
determine yes or no.
--
Regards, Chas.


To Email, replace 'xxx' with tango papa golf.

Doug Kanter wrote:
"Ignoramus22732" wrote in message
...

I am demolishing a huge 8 kVa UPS. Lots of nice wires, screws etc.

It has a large transformer, it weighs around 200 lbs. It comes from a
that 8 KVA Ferrups UPS. There is a super heavy square shaped copper
wire on it, which, I fancy, could sell for some money. This wire is
something like 3x8 mm in cross section. Very heavy stuff. So, if I
somehow manage to pull the transformer apart, I would, first, able to
throw the steel part to garbage, and second, to get and sell copper
wire. i would also keep some of this copper wire for home uses such as
grounding wire for my generator.

Without taking it apart I will not be able to do anything with this
monstrosity, not even throw it away.

This is a specialty transformer with lots of contacts, so I do not
think that I could sell it. (another, smaller like 50 lbs transformer
is an isolation transformer which I hope to sell for at least
something. Also, there are 8 1.2 farad capacitors)

So... How do I take it apart? It was assembled from steel plates, can
it be therefore disassembled?

i


Here in upstate NY, an entire lake was contaminated with PCBs by some guy
"salvaging" transformers at the shoreline. The fish are no longer safe to
eat. You may want to investigate further what may be inside that transformer
of yours before disassembling it. Perhaps your state's environmental
conservation department, or local department of solid waste could assist in
finding out more. Or, the manufacturer.


I thought PCB's were only used as a liquid insulating and cooling
substance, like for instance in the big cans up on the telephone poles
and substations. I imagine this thing does not involve any PCB'sdue to
the way he describes it as being in the open versus being submerged in
an oily liquid

"Steven" wrote in message
news:%jjCd.22850$rL3.9862@trnddc03...
Doug Kanter wrote:
"Ignoramus22732" wrote in message
...

I am demolishing a huge 8 kVa UPS. Lots of nice wires, screws etc.

It has a large transformer, it weighs around 200 lbs. It comes from a
that 8 KVA Ferrups UPS. There is a super heavy square shaped copper
wire on it, which, I fancy, could sell for some money. This wire is
something like 3x8 mm in cross section. Very heavy stuff. So, if I
somehow manage to pull the transformer apart, I would, first, able to
throw the steel part to garbage, and second, to get and sell copper
wire. i would also keep some of this copper wire for home uses such as
grounding wire for my generator.

Without taking it apart I will not be able to do anything with this
monstrosity, not even throw it away.

This is a specialty transformer with lots of contacts, so I do not
think that I could sell it. (another, smaller like 50 lbs transformer
is an isolation transformer which I hope to sell for at least
something. Also, there are 8 1.2 farad capacitors)

So... How do I take it apart? It was assembled from steel plates, can
it be therefore disassembled?

i


Here in upstate NY, an entire lake was contaminated with PCBs by some guy
"salvaging" transformers at the shoreline. The fish are no longer safe to
eat. You may want to investigate further what may be inside that
transformer of yours before disassembling it. Perhaps your state's
environmental conservation department, or local department of solid waste
could assist in finding out more. Or, the manufacturer.
I thought PCB's were only used as a liquid insulating and cooling
substance, like for instance in the big cans up on the telephone poles and
substations. I imagine this thing does not involve any PCB'sdue to the
way he describes it as being in the open versus being submerged in an oily
liquid


Some others who have responded have indicated that the capacitors may
contain PCBs. I simply threw out the other possibility because it's worth
looking into, especially because knowledge costs nothing.

Jesus guyz. The friggin' thing is a "dry-type" transformer! There are no
(read my lips) ***NO*** PCBs in a dry type transformer.

The copper isn't worth more than 5 cents per pound. It is classed a mixed
copper and nobody wants it.

The laminations are usually and E and an I type on each layer reversed
positioned for each layer.


"willshak" wrote in message
...
On 1/3/2005 1:37 PM US(ET), Jon Danniken took fingers to keys, and typed
the following:

"Doug Kanter" wrote:


Here in upstate NY, an entire lake was contaminated with PCBs by some
guy
"salvaging" transformers at the shoreline. The fish are no longer safe
to
eat. You may want to investigate further what may be inside that


transformer


of yours before disassembling it. Perhaps your state's environmental
conservation department, or local department of solid waste could assist


in


finding out more. Or, the manufacturer.



How many transformers do you have in your house, Doug?
How many of those contain PCBs?
What types of transformers used PCBs, and what was the purpose for the
PCBs?

Jon

http://www.ehso.com/PCB_App_A.htm

--
Bill

There is no liquid in a "dry-type" transforemt and therefore no PCBs

PCB were only used in large transformers full of cooling oil for usage
indoors because of the flammablity rating of the PCB oils.

Did you know, **NO***, I repeat ***NO*** death has ever been related to
PCBs?


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"Jon Danniken" wrote in message
...
"Doug Kanter" wrote:
"Jon Danniken" wrote:
"Doug Kanter" wrote:

Here in upstate NY, an entire lake was contaminated with PCBs by
some
guy
"salvaging" transformers at the shoreline. The fish are no longer
safe
to
eat. You may want to investigate further what may be inside that
transformer
of yours before disassembling it. Perhaps your state's environmental
conservation department, or local department of solid waste could
assist
in
finding out more. Or, the manufacturer.

How many transformers do you have in your house, Doug?
How many of those contain PCBs?
What types of transformers used PCBs, and what was the purpose for
the
PCBs?

Jon


Question 1: Doesn't matter. I have no intention of disassembling them.

Question 2: Probably none, but none of the transformers in my home are
older
than 3-4 years, except the tiny one that handles the doorbell. I doubt
PCB's
are permitted in small household transformers at this stage,
considering
what we know about them.

Question 3: The oil in older, larger transformers was there for either
cooling or insulation - I don't recall, and it doesn't matter, since
it's
just a point of interest. But, the PCBs were there as a byproduct, not
because they had a purpose.

What's YOUR point? That, knowing what we do about these chemicals, we
should
be stupid, pretend the knowledge doesn't exist, and be careless?

My point is that I suspected you of being a reactionary man who is
unable
to
consider a topic rationally, based upon the facts in evidence, without
launching into a pre-programmed tirade based upon emotional supposition
and
lack of knowledge.

That you are unwilling to answer the very basic questions that I asked
you
WRT transformers further demonstrates this, and I thank you for further
revealing yourself with your response.

I can't "fix" the problems that you seem determined to expose to the
world,
Doug,, but perhaps you would be a bit better off it you would at least
educate yourself a bit before exposing your ignorance in any particular
area
of knowledge.

Of course, you might very well enjoy espousing your ignorance to the
world;
it seems to be a popular pastime with your type.

Jon


Reactionary? Nonsense. The OP stated that he has a transformer weighing
around 200 lbs. While this does not necessarily mean it's different from
the
one in my furnace, dishwasher or doorbell, it also does not mean it's the
same. Neither you nor I know exactly what he has. You know that.

As far as "rational", I'm sure you're aware that there's an entire
generation that has no idea what sort of chemistry experiments went on in
this country before people finally woke up. Perhaps the Love Canal
situation
was the wakeup call. It's entirely possible that the OP had NO idea about
what he might have in his possession.

Why do you have a problem with suggesting that he proceed with caution? Do
you believe that all the research into the dangers of PCBs are junk
science?

All minor ailments and no deaths have ever been attributed to it.

Did you wash your hair in detergent this week?

"Harry Chickpea" wrote in message
news:41daa393.526844057@localhost...
"Doug Kanter" wrote:

Question 3: The oil in older, larger transformers was there for either
cooling or insulation - I don't recall, and it doesn't matter, since it's
just a point of interest. But, the PCBs were there as a byproduct, not
because they had a purpose.

Nope. The chemicals were there to facilitate heat transfer,
especially in larger grid transformers. Needless to say,
non-conductive liquids with a high boiling point are required for the
task.

http://www.ehso.com/EHSO_PCB.htm

Characteristics and Uses of PCBs

PCBs belong to a family of organic compounds known as chlorinated
hydrocarbons. Key characteristics include: high boiling point, high
degree of chemical stability, low flammability, and low electric
conductivity. Between 1926-29 and 1977, PCB-containing products were
manufactured for use in applications where stable, fire-resistant,
heat-transfer properties were demanded. The most extensive use of PCBs
occurred in dielectric fluids. Such fluids typically have the
following characteristics: a heavy oil appearance, high boiling point,
high chemical stability, high flash point, low electrical
conductivity, and low water solubility. PCBs were also used as
plasticizers and additives in lubricating and cutting fluids. Most
PCBs were sold for use as dielectric fluids (insulating liquids) in
electric transformers and capacitors. Other uses included heat
transfer fluid, hydraulic fluid, dye carriers in carbonless copy
paper, plasticizers in paints, adhesives, and caulking compounds, and
filters in investment casting wax. Although PCBs are no longer
commercially made in the United States, many electric transformers and
capacitors once filled with PCBs are still in service. Additionally,
PCBs currently are being inadvertently produced as byproducts during
the manufacture of certain organic chemicals. PCB Manufacturers and
Trade Names lists some of the manufacturers, who made PCBs and the
trade names of their products.

Why Are PCBs Harmful to Human Health and the Environment
When released into the environment, PCBs do not easily break apart and
form new chemical arrangements (i.e., they are not readily
biodegradable). Instead they persist for many years, bioaccumulate,
and bioconcentrate in organisms. Well documented tests on laboratory
animals show that various levels of PCBs cause reproductive effects,
gastric disorders, skin lesions, and cancerous tumors. Exposure to
PCBs in humans can cause chloracne (a painful, disfiguring skin
ailment), liver damage, nausea, dizziness, eye irritation, and
bronchitis.

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"Jon Danniken" wrote in message
...
"Doug Kanter" wrote:
"Jon Danniken" wrote:
"Doug Kanter" wrote:

Here in upstate NY, an entire lake was contaminated with PCBs by some
guy
"salvaging" transformers at the shoreline. The fish are no longer
safe
to
eat. You may want to investigate further what may be inside that
transformer
of yours before disassembling it. Perhaps your state's environmental
conservation department, or local department of solid waste could
assist
in
finding out more. Or, the manufacturer.

How many transformers do you have in your house, Doug?
How many of those contain PCBs?
What types of transformers used PCBs, and what was the purpose for the
PCBs?

Jon


Question 1: Doesn't matter. I have no intention of disassembling them.

Question 2: Probably none, but none of the transformers in my home are
older
than 3-4 years, except the tiny one that handles the doorbell. I doubt
PCB's
are permitted in small household transformers at this stage, considering
what we know about them.

Question 3: The oil in older, larger transformers was there for either
cooling or insulation - I don't recall, and it doesn't matter, since
it's
just a point of interest. But, the PCBs were there as a byproduct, not
because they had a purpose.

What's YOUR point? That, knowing what we do about these chemicals, we
should
be stupid, pretend the knowledge doesn't exist, and be careless?

My point is that I suspected you of being a reactionary man who is unable
to
consider a topic rationally, based upon the facts in evidence, without
launching into a pre-programmed tirade based upon emotional supposition
and
lack of knowledge.

That you are unwilling to answer the very basic questions that I asked
you
WRT transformers further demonstrates this, and I thank you for further
revealing yourself with your response.

I can't "fix" the problems that you seem determined to expose to the
world,
Doug,, but perhaps you would be a bit better off it you would at least
educate yourself a bit before exposing your ignorance in any particular
area
of knowledge.

Of course, you might very well enjoy espousing your ignorance to the
world;
it seems to be a popular pastime with your type.

Jon


Reactionary? Nonsense. The OP stated that he has a transformer weighing
around 200 lbs. While this does not necessarily mean it's different from
the one in my furnace, dishwasher or doorbell, it also does not mean it's
the same. Neither you nor I know exactly what he has. You know that.

As far as "rational", I'm sure you're aware that there's an entire
generation that has no idea what sort of chemistry experiments went on in
this country before people finally woke up. Perhaps the Love Canal
situation was the wakeup call. It's entirely possible that the OP had NO
idea about what he might have in his possession.

Why do you have a problem with suggesting that he proceed with caution? Do
you believe that all the research into the dangers of PCBs are junk
science?

For those who are interested in a little of the history of PCBs I work for a
utility that has some experience with it.

Firstly, size doesn't matter, it was everywhere at one time, and ignoramus's
original post did not mention if the transformer was dry or not. So I think
Doug's response to be wary of PCBs was the right thing to suggest, given the
possible dangers involved.

PCBs were the answer to a maidens prayer for transformer and capacitor
manufacturers, since it had much better heat transfer characteristics
combined with excellent dielectric strength. Plus it allowed more compact
designs, and a cheaper overall product cost. All was well in transformer and
capacitor land until a couple of incidents that drew attention to some of
PCB environmental effects.

One incident, came about because PCBs look and smell remarkably like cooking
oil, somewhere ( Japan I think ) a barrel of it found its way into a
restaurant and it was used to cook food. A number people were hospitalised
from its effects, burning of the mouth, throat etc.

Another incident involved a fire in a basement substation in a high rise
building in the US. Although it is hard to burn, a fault in the transformer
set it alight, and the buildings airconditioning system pumped the smoke
from the fire through the building. PCB's produce dioxin when they burn, and
the building was contaminated with dioxin. I'm not sure the mess has ever
been cleaned up.

Once they started looking at the chemical, they found that it had the
property of being very stable, and of accumulating in the food chain. If
someone did dump it in a lake, it would still be in the lake 500 years
later, most likely in the fish at the top of the food chain.

Experience in our own area was with a customer who bought us a sample
capacitor to have tested. They had been asleep in bed, hot night with the
fan on, when a capacitor in their ceiling fan leaked PCB's on to them. They
had fairly serious skin reactions on their faces, necks, and legs, like a
reaction to strong bleach, although the reaction was not immediate. The
fellow who bought us the capacitor had the burns, so I've actually seen the
effects of pure PCB.

We removed all our PCB capacitors from our network, and replaced them with
non PCB types. We stockpiled these for disposal on an incinerator ship which
cruised the world destroying the PCBs by burning them at exteremly high
temperatures, to destroy the dioxin, out at sea, since it was too dangerous
to attempt it on land. Funny thing was the ships kept sinking, the cynic in
me thinks it must have been cheaper to load up an old ship to the gunnels
with the suff, and sink it rather than actually burn it.

While we had no PCB transformers on our network, we acquired a network which
did have some. The problem was that maintenance processes had cross
contaminated a lot of other transformers with the stuff, and at one stage
the EPA here had set a limit of 5 parts per million contamination of PCB
before the oil was clasified as hazardous. I believe it is now at 20 ppm. I
believe this to be a major over reaction to risks involved, it's the pure
stuff that needs to be treated with respect.

While there is a fair bit of hysteria surrounding PCBs, there are some real
risks with the pure stuff that people playing with old transformers and
capacitors need to be wary of.

regards,

John

"john johnson" wrote in message
u...

snip snap snude

While there is a fair bit of hysteria surrounding PCBs, there are some
real
risks with the pure stuff that people playing with old transformers and
capacitors need to be wary of.

Thanx for the warning, I was not aware that there still might som PCBs
arround in old oil filled transformers and old capacitors so I'll keep that
in mind next time I go shopping at the local scrapheap :-)


/Morten


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On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 17:34:29 -0500, "Gymy Bob"
wrote:

All minor ailments and no deaths have ever been attributed to it.
snip

You may consider it a "minor ailment", but have you seen the photos of
that Ruskie politician who was purportedly poisoned with dioxin? A
year ago he looked about like baby faced John Edwards, now he looks
more like a puffy faced, acne ridden Andy Rooney...

DJ

I thought we were talking PCBs?

"DJ" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 17:34:29 -0500, "Gymy Bob"
wrote:

All minor ailments and no deaths have ever been attributed to it.
snip

You may consider it a "minor ailment", but have you seen the photos of
that Ruskie politician who was purportedly poisoned with dioxin? A
year ago he looked about like baby faced John Edwards, now he looks
more like a puffy faced, acne ridden Andy Rooney...

DJ

On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 19:45:30 -0500, "Gymy Bob"
wrote:

I thought we were talking PCBs?

I was referring to what another poster wrote:

On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 10:13:33 +1100, "john johnson"
wrote:
snip

Another incident involved a fire in a basement substation in a high rise
building in the US. Although it is hard to burn, a fault in the transformer
set it alight, and the buildings airconditioning system pumped the smoke
from the fire through the building. PCB's produce dioxin when they burn, and
the building was contaminated with dioxin. I'm not sure the mess has ever
been cleaned up.
snip

"DJ" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 17:34:29 -0500, "Gymy Bob"
wrote:

All minor ailments and no deaths have ever been attributed to it.
snip

You may consider it a "minor ailment", but have you seen the photos of
that Ruskie politician who was purportedly poisoned with dioxin? A
year ago he looked about like baby faced John Edwards, now he looks
more like a puffy faced, acne ridden Andy Rooney...

DJ

You quoted me and answered my post in the thread.

"DJ" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 19:45:30 -0500, "Gymy Bob"
wrote:

I thought we were talking PCBs?

I was referring to what another poster wrote:

On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 10:13:33 +1100, "john johnson"
wrote:
snip

Another incident involved a fire in a basement substation in a high rise
building in the US. Although it is hard to burn, a fault in the
transformer
set it alight, and the buildings airconditioning system pumped the smoke
from the fire through the building. PCB's produce dioxin when they burn,
and
the building was contaminated with dioxin. I'm not sure the mess has ever
been cleaned up.
snip

"DJ" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 17:34:29 -0500, "Gymy Bob"
wrote:

All minor ailments and no deaths have ever been attributed to it.
snip

You may consider it a "minor ailment", but have you seen the photos of
that Ruskie politician who was purportedly poisoned with dioxin? A
year ago he looked about like baby faced John Edwards, now he looks
more like a puffy faced, acne ridden Andy Rooney...

DJ

No deaths? OK. But, why is it considered dangerous?

"Gymy Bob" wrote in message
...
There is no liquid in a "dry-type" transforemt and therefore no PCBs

PCB were only used in large transformers full of cooling oil for usage
indoors because of the flammablity rating of the PCB oils.

Did you know, **NO***, I repeat ***NO*** death has ever been related to
PCBs?


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"Jon Danniken" wrote in message
...
"Doug Kanter" wrote:
"Jon Danniken" wrote:
"Doug Kanter" wrote:

Here in upstate NY, an entire lake was contaminated with PCBs by
some
guy
"salvaging" transformers at the shoreline. The fish are no longer
safe
to
eat. You may want to investigate further what may be inside that
transformer
of yours before disassembling it. Perhaps your state's
environmental
conservation department, or local department of solid waste could
assist
in
finding out more. Or, the manufacturer.

How many transformers do you have in your house, Doug?
How many of those contain PCBs?
What types of transformers used PCBs, and what was the purpose for
the
PCBs?

Jon


Question 1: Doesn't matter. I have no intention of disassembling them.

Question 2: Probably none, but none of the transformers in my home are
older
than 3-4 years, except the tiny one that handles the doorbell. I doubt
PCB's
are permitted in small household transformers at this stage,
considering
what we know about them.

Question 3: The oil in older, larger transformers was there for either
cooling or insulation - I don't recall, and it doesn't matter, since
it's
just a point of interest. But, the PCBs were there as a byproduct, not
because they had a purpose.

What's YOUR point? That, knowing what we do about these chemicals, we
should
be stupid, pretend the knowledge doesn't exist, and be careless?

My point is that I suspected you of being a reactionary man who is
unable
to
consider a topic rationally, based upon the facts in evidence, without
launching into a pre-programmed tirade based upon emotional supposition
and
lack of knowledge.

That you are unwilling to answer the very basic questions that I asked
you
WRT transformers further demonstrates this, and I thank you for further
revealing yourself with your response.

I can't "fix" the problems that you seem determined to expose to the
world,
Doug,, but perhaps you would be a bit better off it you would at least
educate yourself a bit before exposing your ignorance in any particular
area
of knowledge.

Of course, you might very well enjoy espousing your ignorance to the
world;
it seems to be a popular pastime with your type.

Jon


Reactionary? Nonsense. The OP stated that he has a transformer weighing
around 200 lbs. While this does not necessarily mean it's different from
the
one in my furnace, dishwasher or doorbell, it also does not mean it's the
same. Neither you nor I know exactly what he has. You know that.

As far as "rational", I'm sure you're aware that there's an entire
generation that has no idea what sort of chemistry experiments went on in
this country before people finally woke up. Perhaps the Love Canal
situation
was the wakeup call. It's entirely possible that the OP had NO idea about
what he might have in his possession.

Why do you have a problem with suggesting that he proceed with caution?
Do
you believe that all the research into the dangers of PCBs are junk
science?

Doug Kanter wrote:

Here in upstate NY, an entire lake was contaminated with PCBs by some
guy "salvaging" transformers at the shoreline. The fish are no longer
safe to eat. You may want to investigate further what may be inside
that transformer of yours before disassembling it. Perhaps your
state's environmental conservation department, or local department of
solid waste could assist in finding out more. Or, the manufacturer.

But the GUY who disassembled the transformers is okay, right?

Maybe there's PCBs. Maybe not. If there are PCBs, there might be enough to
be detectable. If so, diluted 1-trillion-to-one in a nearby pond might be
sufficient to give one fish a headache.

Bah! Who cares?

"john johnson" wrote in message
u...


Firstly, size doesn't matter, it was everywhere at one time, and
ignoramus's original post did not mention if the transformer was dry or
not.

I've heard OLD veteran teachers say they think there's something in the
water - people no longer have reading comprehension skills. Luckily, you and
two others here seem to escaped this fate.

"Gymy Bob" wrote in message
...
All minor ailments and no deaths have ever been attributed to it.

Thank you. Keep scratching. Be happy. Go back to sleep.

"JerryMouse" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:

Here in upstate NY, an entire lake was contaminated with PCBs by some
guy "salvaging" transformers at the shoreline. The fish are no longer
safe to eat. You may want to investigate further what may be inside
that transformer of yours before disassembling it. Perhaps your
state's environmental conservation department, or local department of
solid waste could assist in finding out more. Or, the manufacturer.

But the GUY who disassembled the transformers is okay, right?

Maybe there's PCBs. Maybe not. If there are PCBs, there might be enough to
be detectable. If so, diluted 1-trillion-to-one in a nearby pond might be
sufficient to give one fish a headache.

Bah! Who cares?


Actually, I'd like to know WHO the guy was, not how he is. Please provide a
way of contacting him, since you seem to be privy to all the information
surrounding this event.

Gymy Bob wrote:
There is no liquid in a "dry-type" transforemt and therefore no PCBs

PCB were only used in large transformers full of cooling oil for
usage
indoors because of the flammablity rating of the PCB oils.

Did you know, **NO***, I repeat ***NO*** death has ever been related
to
PCBs?

From
http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/epic/inter...gr-71897e.html

"Unfortunately, Japan's PCB history is tinged with tragedy. In 1968, an
accidental mixing of PCB with rice oil affected 14,000 people and
resulted in 300 deaths."

Ignoramus22732 wrote:

How about these huge capacitors from the demolished UPS?

See

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/capacitors/

The cup is pictured for size comparison.

Are they 4.1 farad each or they are 4.1 millifarad?

The 'm' is a leftover from the olden days, when it meant 'micro', not the
metric standard 'milli'. Milli is not used in capacitor rating. Pico, micro
then Farads. New capacitors would be probably marked with the 'u' instead of 'm'

So, they are 4100 microfarad capacitors


They are rated for

300V. Are there PCB in them?

I don't know. Maybe Tantalum or Aluminium oxide?

http://www.radio-electronics.com/inf...itor_types.php


These guys found an interesting use for them:

http://www.4hv.org/archive/topic.22395.html



mike

--
He was the sort of person who stood on mountaintops during thunderstorms in
wet copper armour shouting "All the Gods are *******s."

Terry Pratchett

If they are a metal can type they are most likely full of PCB oil unless
stated otherwise on the metal cans.

I doubt they are 4 farads. More likely 4 microfarads uf.

"Ignoramus22732" wrote in message
...
Okay, all that said -- for you paranoids out there there is another
source of PCBs that _was_ commonly used in the home: Capacitors,
especially the capacitors used in electric light ballasts. Those _did_
have PCBs in them at one time. So if you're got some 30-year-old
flourescent lights hanging around you might want to take a minute to
check the ballasts. If they don't have PCBs they will say so.

How about these huge capacitors from the demolished UPS?

See

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/capacitors/

The cup is pictured for size comparison.

Are they 4.1 farad each or they are 4.1 millifarad? They are rated for
300V. Are there PCB in them?

i

Ignoramus22732 wrote:

Are they 4.1 farad each or they are 4.1 millifarad? They are rated for
300V. Are there PCB in them?



The historical aspect of this just HAS to be remembered.

=================================================
Only metric prefixes for 10+6 or more have an upper-case abbreviation (e.g.,
M = 10+6, G = 10+9, etc.). In particular, note that the prefix m indicates
10-3 and M indicates 10+6. The difference between an upper-case M and a
lower-case m is nine orders of magnitude! One should be warned that American
manufacturers of capacitors often use "mF" or "MF" to indicate microfarads,
a practice that is both incorrect and misleading.

http://www.rbs0.com/tw.htm
=================================================



mike

Ignoramus22732 wrote:
On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 18:20:58 GMT, Doug Kanter wrote:

"Ignoramus22732" wrote in message
...

I am demolishing a huge 8 kVa UPS. Lots of nice wires, screws etc.

It has a large transformer, it weighs around 200 lbs. It comes from a
that 8 KVA Ferrups UPS. There is a super heavy square shaped copper
wire on it, which, I fancy, could sell for some money. This wire is
something like 3x8 mm in cross section. Very heavy stuff. So, if I
somehow manage to pull the transformer apart, I would, first, able to
throw the steel part to garbage, and second, to get and sell copper
wire. i would also keep some of this copper wire for home uses such as
grounding wire for my generator.

Without taking it apart I will not be able to do anything with this
monstrosity, not even throw it away.

This is a specialty transformer with lots of contacts, so I do not
think that I could sell it. (another, smaller like 50 lbs transformer
is an isolation transformer which I hope to sell for at least
something. Also, there are 8 1.2 farad capacitors)

So... How do I take it apart? It was assembled from steel plates, can
it be therefore disassembled?

i

Here in upstate NY, an entire lake was contaminated with PCBs by
some guy "salvaging" transformers at the shoreline. The fish are no
longer safe to eat. You may want to investigate further what may be
inside that transformer of yours before disassembling it. Perhaps
your state's environmental conservation department, or local
department of solid waste could assist in finding out more. Or, the
manufacturer.


Thanks.

Hm, all that is inside this transformer is steel, copper, varnish, and
paper. Maybe you are referring to hyooge transformers filled with
liquids? In any case, I will appreciate input regarding this issue, as
I do not want to run afoul of the laws.

i
Yes the PCB problem is related to oil filled transformers.
if you can ID it you should be able to get the specs from
the manufacturer to determine if it is oil filled or dry
(maybe you already know). If it is dry then no problem. If
oil filled and has PCB, make UPS take it back since they
shouldn't have given or sold it to you.

Jon Danniken wrote:
"Doug Kanter" wrote:

Here in upstate NY, an entire lake was contaminated with PCBs by some guy
"salvaging" transformers at the shoreline. The fish are no longer safe to
eat. You may want to investigate further what may be inside that

transformer

of yours before disassembling it. Perhaps your state's environmental
conservation department, or local department of solid waste could assist

in

finding out more. Or, the manufacturer.


How many transformers do you have in your house, Doug?
How many of those contain PCBs?
What types of transformers used PCBs, and what was the purpose for the PCBs?

Jon


I'm not Doug, but oil is used in larger transformer for
cooling. PCBs were added to improve heat transfer. I have
no idea what the smallest size of oil filled transformers
are but larger ones are way bigger than 200 pounds. 8KVA
may be a little small for an oil filled transformer.

"Ignoramus22732" wrote in message
...
Okay, all that said -- for you paranoids out there there is another
source of PCBs that _was_ commonly used in the home: Capacitors,
especially the capacitors used in electric light ballasts. Those _did_
have PCBs in them at one time. So if you're got some 30-year-old
flourescent lights hanging around you might want to take a minute to
check the ballasts. If they don't have PCBs they will say so.

How about these huge capacitors from the demolished UPS?

See

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/capacitors/

The cup is pictured for size comparison.

Are they 4.1 farad each or they are 4.1 millifarad? They are rated for
300V. Are there PCB in them?

These seem to be electrolytic capacitors rather than the oil filled type --
no PCBs.

George E. Cawthon wrote:
Jon Danniken wrote:
"Doug Kanter" wrote:

Here in upstate NY, an entire lake was contaminated with PCBs by
some guy "salvaging" transformers at the shoreline. The fish are no
longer safe to eat. You may want to investigate further what may be
inside that

transformer

of yours before disassembling it. Perhaps your state's environmental
conservation department, or local department of solid waste could
assist

in

finding out more. Or, the manufacturer.


How many transformers do you have in your house, Doug?
How many of those contain PCBs?
What types of transformers used PCBs, and what was the purpose for
the PCBs? Jon


I'm not Doug, but oil is used in larger transformer for
cooling. PCBs were added to improve heat transfer. I have
no idea what the smallest size of oil filled transformers
are but larger ones are way bigger than 200 pounds. 8KVA
may be a little small for an oil filled transformer.


Geez ig. You sure stirred up a hornets' nest here.
Getting to be one of those long (remembered) threads.
BTW what program/workflow gets those photos on line so fast? I Emailed you
at both addresses you posted but have had no reply.
Still interested in that starter motor?

Regards.
Ken.

--
http://www.rupert.net/~solar
Return address supplied by 'spammotel'
http://www.spammotel.com

"Ignoramus28225" wrote in message
...

Ken, I use my own perl script to index photos. Here it is.

Cool, how do you use it, ie. where do you run the thing and with what
parameters, I'm familiar with perl but haven't taken your script apart yet
:-)


/Morten




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"Morten" wrote in message
...

"john johnson" wrote in message
u...

snip snap snude

While there is a fair bit of hysteria surrounding PCBs, there are some
real
risks with the pure stuff that people playing with old transformers and
capacitors need to be wary of.

Thanx for the warning, I was not aware that there still might som PCBs
arround in old oil filled transformers and old capacitors so I'll keep
that
in mind next time I go shopping at the local scrapheap :-)


/Morten


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I worked for Westinghouse transformer rebuilding service in the late
1940's. Was into PCB oil up to my elbows sometimes. Maybe I should start
worrying about this??? W W

Ignoramus28225 wrote:
....
I see. Thanks. I am curious, how do they make 1.2 FARAD capacitors
that they sell for car music. It would seem that if they were made
using the same technology, they would need to be like 250 times bigger
than my capacitors!

They are electrolytic capacitors and use a carbon aerogel as one
of the "plates". Aerogels have a very large surface area per volume.

Anthony

"Ignoramus28225" wrote in message
...

Cool, how do you use it, ie. where do you run the thing and with what
parameters, I'm familiar with perl but haven't taken your script apart
yet
:-)

I run it under linux, in the directory where the photos are. I run it
like this:

index-pix.pl --with-pix "Picture Index"

that creates thubmnail pages and goes through all subdirectories
recursively.

Nice indeed, but it falls apart when using filenames with spaces in them :-O


Where did you get the convert utility from, it's not installed on my system
and it's not on the install discs either, could you mail to me or post a url
somewhere...


I've corrected the missing string encapsulations and are going through the
script to make a little more HTML compliant, ie. add a /body and /html
and a few other bits, I'll post my version here when I'm finnished
molestring it :-)



Regards

Morten

ps: You can mail me at mormordogs at zorland dot netdogs but please take out
the dogs first, they need attention to :-)





i


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In article ,
"Doug Kanter" wrote:

Reactionary? Nonsense. The OP stated that he has a transformer weighing
around 200 lbs. While this does not necessarily mean it's different from the
one in my furnace, dishwasher or doorbell, it also does not mean it's the
same. Neither you nor I know exactly what he has. You know that.

Yes, definitly "Reactionay" in that you had NO Knowledge of the
transformer in question, and when others explained that ALL these
used in a FerroUPS, are DRY transformers, you still insist telling the
world, your prepositioned agenda. Actually, some of US do know exactly
what transformer the OP has, and what type it is, and that it doesn't
have anything to do with PCB's. Now, do you know what PCB stands for,
or is this another area that you knowledge base doesn't cover?


Me

"Me" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Doug Kanter" wrote:

Reactionary? Nonsense. The OP stated that he has a transformer weighing
around 200 lbs. While this does not necessarily mean it's different from
the
one in my furnace, dishwasher or doorbell, it also does not mean it's the
same. Neither you nor I know exactly what he has. You know that.

Yes, definitly "Reactionay" in that you had NO Knowledge of the
transformer in question, and when others explained that ALL these
used in a FerroUPS, are DRY transformers, you still insist telling the
world, your prepositioned agenda. Actually, some of US do know exactly
what transformer the OP has, and what type it is, and that it doesn't
have anything to do with PCB's. Now, do you know what PCB stands for,
or is this another area that you knowledge base doesn't cover?


Me

You will notice that my suggestion was posted before any of these
explanations arrived. Or, perhaps you won't notice.

In any case, it doesn't matter to you, really. You know that.