"Ignoramus28225" wrote in message
...

Great point. Look at 'system' call invocation, you can put single
quotes around the filenames.

Thats almost what I did, I put any strings into \" and that solved the
issue...


Where did you get the convert utility from, it's not installed on my
system and it's not on the install discs either, could you mail to
me or post a url somewhere...

It is a part of the ImageMagick package.

Yes, I know I just found it and installed it, so now that part works as well
:-)


/Morten




---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.825 / Virus Database: 563 - Release Date: 30/12/2004

"Ignoramus22732" wrote in message
...
Okay, all that said -- for you paranoids out there there is another
source of PCBs that _was_ commonly used in the home: Capacitors,
especially the capacitors used in electric light ballasts. Those _did_
have PCBs in them at one time. So if you're got some 30-year-old
flourescent lights hanging around you might want to take a minute to
check the ballasts. If they don't have PCBs they will say so.

How about these huge capacitors from the demolished UPS?

See

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/capacitors/

The cup is pictured for size comparison.

Are they 4.1 farad each or they are 4.1 millifarad? They are rated for
300V. Are there PCB in them?

No, those are DC electrolytic filter caps which do not contain PCB. The
three oil filled AC paper caps in the picture behind the bank of blue
electros would be prime contenders for PCB, but unlikely if manufactured
1990.
--
Regards, Chas.


To Email, replace 'xxx' with tango papa golf.

On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 10:37:23 -0800, "Jon Danniken"
wrote:


How many transformers do you have in your house, Doug?
How many of those contain PCBs?
What types of transformers used PCBs, and what was the purpose for the PCBs?

Jon

Jon --

Let me try to answer your last question. I'm no transformer expert,
but I worked in power plants my entire career. I know just enough to
be dangerous.

Generally speaking, large power transformers used PCBs. The liquid in
the transformer acted as a coolant that carried away heat to heat
exhangers of one kind or another. Most of them rejected their heat to
water or atmospheric air.

One of the ways to classify transformers is by their method of
cooling. O/A were oil/air cooled. O/W were oil/water cooled
O/A/F were oil/air/fan, etc. (I might be incorrect on that last one.
It might be O/FA.)

The PCBs were valued for their fire-suppressant properties. Thus, if
a transformer ever blew up there wasn't so much danger of fire.

Long before the days of environmental consciousness, folks who could
get their hands on transformer oil (PCBs) would slather it onto the
wood shingles on their houses. Not only would it help preserve the
wood, it would act as a fire supressant.

Regards,

Orrin

Just don't ever lose weight. Toxins are stored in your fat cells.

"Warren Weber" wrote in message
...

"Morten" wrote in message
...

"john johnson" wrote in message
u...

snip snap snude

While there is a fair bit of hysteria surrounding PCBs, there are some
real
risks with the pure stuff that people playing with old transformers and
capacitors need to be wary of.

Thanx for the warning, I was not aware that there still might som PCBs
arround in old oil filled transformers and old capacitors so I'll keep
that
in mind next time I go shopping at the local scrapheap :-)


/Morten


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.825 / Virus Database: 563 - Release Date: 31/12/2004

I worked for Westinghouse transformer rebuilding service in the late
1940's. Was into PCB oil up to my elbows sometimes. Maybe I should start
worrying about this??? W W

Only because most cannot type Greek characters on their computers. The
prefixes are Greek letters designated by some standards committee.

"Ignoramus22732" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 04:25:09 GMT, m II wrote:
Ignoramus22732 wrote:

Are they 4.1 farad each or they are 4.1 millifarad? They are rated for
300V. Are there PCB in them?



The historical aspect of this just HAS to be remembered.

=============================================== ==
Only metric prefixes for 10+6 or more have an upper-case abbreviation
(e.g.,
M = 10+6, G = 10+9, etc.). In particular, note that the prefix m
indicates
10-3 and M indicates 10+6. The difference between an upper-case M and a
lower-case m is nine orders of magnitude! One should be warned that
American
manufacturers of capacitors often use "mF" or "MF" to indicate
microfarads,
a practice that is both incorrect and misleading.

I agree, it is a holy mess. m stands for milli. u stands for micro. n
stands for nano.

i


http://www.rbs0.com/tw.htm
=============================================== ==



mike


--

On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 16:24:53 -0800, Orrin Iseminger
wrote:

Big Snip
The PCBs were valued for their fire-suppressant properties. Thus, if
a transformer ever blew up there wasn't so much danger of fire.

Long before the days of environmental consciousness, folks who could
get their hands on transformer oil (PCBs) would slather it onto the
wood shingles on their houses. Not only would it help preserve the
wood, it would act as a fire supressant.

And now you've got a PCB-laden Superfund Site on your roof. :-0

("Well, it sure sounded like a good idea at the time...") ^_^

-- Bruce --
--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

Ignoramus28225 wrote:

Ken, I use my own perl script to index photos. Here it is. As for a
starter motor, I think that all my motored stuff works well by now...


That works well. I saved it as a text file, then did a chmod a+x on it. One
suggestion would be to have it name index.html as AAAindex.html, or
something like it. That way, it shows up at the start of the folder and
searching through the files.icons in alphabetical order isn't needed.

Does your site keep a log of who downloads the background image?



mike



--
He was the sort of person who stood on mountaintops during thunderstorms in
wet copper armour shouting "All the Gods are *******s."

Terry Pratchett

The railroads used old PCB oil to keep there ties preserved and there gravel
from dusting.

"Orrin Iseminger" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 10:37:23 -0800, "Jon Danniken"
wrote:


How many transformers do you have in your house, Doug?
How many of those contain PCBs?
What types of transformers used PCBs, and what was the purpose for the
PCBs?

Jon

Jon --

Let me try to answer your last question. I'm no transformer expert,
but I worked in power plants my entire career. I know just enough to
be dangerous.

Generally speaking, large power transformers used PCBs. The liquid in
the transformer acted as a coolant that carried away heat to heat
exhangers of one kind or another. Most of them rejected their heat to
water or atmospheric air.

One of the ways to classify transformers is by their method of
cooling. O/A were oil/air cooled. O/W were oil/water cooled
O/A/F were oil/air/fan, etc. (I might be incorrect on that last one.
It might be O/FA.)

The PCBs were valued for their fire-suppressant properties. Thus, if
a transformer ever blew up there wasn't so much danger of fire.

Long before the days of environmental consciousness, folks who could
get their hands on transformer oil (PCBs) would slather it onto the
wood shingles on their houses. Not only would it help preserve the
wood, it would act as a fire supressant.

Regards,

Orrin

This just implies that he posted information without even knowing much about
the subject matter. This wreaks of M II again. This is her style.

"Ignoramus28225" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 20:16:29 GMT, Doug Kanter
wrote:

I did not know whether his transformer contained liquid, and neither
did he. If nobody else had happened by to clarify, he may well have
opened up a Pandora's box, so to speak. But, it doesn't matter at
this point. Your only reason for being here is because you needed to
vent some anger that came from somewhere else in your life.

I want to chime in.

I did know that the transformer was dry. Doug did not know that at the
time he made his post. I feel that his warning was warranted, even
though the facts that he did not know, obviated the need for his
warning.

I personally would prefer to be informed of dangers, even though some
of the warnings turn out to be irrelevant, as opposed to not being
warned of dangers that "might" be actual.

This discussion of PCBs has been very enlightening to me and I thank
both Doug amd "Me".

i

Right. Same as the fish that are contaminated.

"Gymy Bob" wrote in message
...
Just don't ever lose weight. Toxins are stored in your fat cells.

"Warren Weber" wrote in message
...

"Morten" wrote in message
...

"john johnson" wrote in
message
u...

snip snap snude

While there is a fair bit of hysteria surrounding PCBs, there are some
real
risks with the pure stuff that people playing with old transformers
and
capacitors need to be wary of.

Thanx for the warning, I was not aware that there still might som PCBs
arround in old oil filled transformers and old capacitors so I'll keep
that
in mind next time I go shopping at the local scrapheap :-)


/Morten


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.825 / Virus Database: 563 - Release Date: 31/12/2004

I worked for Westinghouse transformer rebuilding service in the late
1940's. Was into PCB oil up to my elbows sometimes. Maybe I should start
worrying about this??? W W

"Gymy Bob" wrote in message
...
YOU just needed to read his original post. He stated it pretty clear he
was
looking at laminations and windings and paper. If it even remotely was a
oil
filled transformer, it was a little late for that.

And as I pointed out, I don't know enough for "laminations and windings" to
mean anything at that point in the discussion. My goal was to get him to
slow down and wait for a little more input from others. You don't really
have a problem with that, do you?

"Gymy Bob" wrote in message
...
This just implies that he posted information without even knowing much
about
the subject matter. This wreaks of M II again. This is her style.

At what point in this thread did I claim to be an expert? Let's simplify:

1) OP says he has a transformer. His question contains clues which make
sense to people who know more than I do about transformers.

2) People who know more than I do have not yet joined the discussion, at the
moment when I posted my first comment. Matter of fact, mine was the first
response to his question.

3) I suggested he investigate further, which the OP (and a few observers)
thought was a fair suggestion.

4) A number of people decided it was a good day to hurl insults because that
somehow distracts them from their little, tiny pee-pees and their powerless
lives.

Get it?

In article ,
"Doug Kanter" wrote:

My goal was to get him to
slow down and wait for a little more input from others. You don't really
have a problem with that, do you?

He doesn't need to "Slow Down", you need to keep up with the thread, and
read what the OP stated in the first place, and COMPREHEND what he wrote.
The rest of us certainly understood what he stated, and your whole PCB
thing was just "Off the Wall" because it was obvious to the rest of the
UNIVERSE, that he had a dry transformer..............

Me

In article ,
"Doug Kanter" wrote:

4) A number of people decided it was a good day to hurl insults because that
somehow distracts them from their little, tiny pee-pees and their powerless
lives.

Get it?

Give the UNIVERSE a break, and stop with the "Tommyboy Beno" type replys.
You just can't admit that you posted, before thinking, and the rest of
the UNIVERSE, caught you at it, and commented.

Me

"Me" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Doug Kanter" wrote:

My goal was to get him to
slow down and wait for a little more input from others. You don't really
have a problem with that, do you?

He doesn't need to "Slow Down", you need to keep up with the thread, and
read what the OP stated in the first place, and COMPREHEND what he wrote.
The rest of us certainly understood what he stated, and your whole PCB
thing was just "Off the Wall" because it was obvious to the rest of the
UNIVERSE, that he had a dry transformer..............

Me

Mine was the 2nd post in the discussion, so there WAS no thread to keep up
with. Is that clear, or do you need a diagram?

As far as comprehending what he wrote, if I knew enough to extrapolate from
his description, I would not have asked my question. However, as it turned
out, it seems there *are* some parts in his UPS that may require careful
handling due to PCBs.

"Ignoramus584" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 19:03:16 GMT, Doug Kanter
wrote:

"Me" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Doug Kanter" wrote:

My goal was to get him to
slow down and wait for a little more input from others. You don't
really
have a problem with that, do you?

He doesn't need to "Slow Down", you need to keep up with the thread, and
read what the OP stated in the first place, and COMPREHEND what he
wrote.
The rest of us certainly understood what he stated, and your whole PCB
thing was just "Off the Wall" because it was obvious to the rest of the
UNIVERSE, that he had a dry transformer..............

Me

Mine was the 2nd post in the discussion, so there WAS no thread to keep
up
with. Is that clear, or do you need a diagram?

Correct.

As far as comprehending what he wrote, if I knew enough to extrapolate
from
his description, I would not have asked my question. However, as it
turned
out, it seems there *are* some parts in his UPS that may require careful
handling due to PCBs.

No, there is no PCB in that UPS. The sealed capacitors do not contain PCB.

OK....but still.

"Me" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Doug Kanter" wrote:

4) A number of people decided it was a good day to hurl insults because
that
somehow distracts them from their little, tiny pee-pees and their
powerless
lives.

Get it?

Give the UNIVERSE a break, and stop with the "Tommyboy Beno" type replys.
You just can't admit that you posted, before thinking, and the rest of
the UNIVERSE, caught you at it, and commented.

Me

It wouldn't have mattered WHAT I thought. Based on my slim knowledge of
transformers, the information was enough enough for ME to know that his were
not dangerous. Why is it such a problem for YOU that I suggested he be
cautious for what.....4 hours until he knew a little more?

In article ,
Me wrote:

In article ,
"Doug Kanter" wrote:

4) A number of people decided it was a good day to hurl insults because that
somehow distracts them from their little, tiny pee-pees and their powerless
lives.

Get it?

Give the UNIVERSE a break, and stop with the "Tommyboy Beno" type replys.
You just can't admit that you posted, before thinking, and the rest of
the UNIVERSE, caught you at it, and commented.

Me

Off in my chunk of the universe his reply seemed reasonable even if
better replies came along later. OTOH, you have come across as an
asshole and have provided no information of any use at all.

--
B.B. --I am not a goat! thegoat4 at airmail dot net
http://web2.airmail.net/thegoat4/

If they are a metal can type they are most likely full of PCB oil unless
stated otherwise on the metal cans.

Maybe, if they are line voltage AC capacitors.
If they are polarized, for DC or pulsed DC, with one
terminal marked +positive and the other -negative, they are
electrolytic capacitors, without PCBs.

Electrolytic capacitors have a conductive electrolyte in them, and if they
leak they can cause a short. I had a television set damaged that way from a
leaking electrolytic capacitor - ZAP!

CM

In article ,
"Doug Kanter" wrote:

"Ignoramus584" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 19:03:16 GMT, Doug Kanter
wrote:

"Me" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Doug Kanter" wrote:

My goal was to get him to
slow down and wait for a little more input from others. You don't
really
have a problem with that, do you?

He doesn't need to "Slow Down", you need to keep up with the thread, and
read what the OP stated in the first place, and COMPREHEND what he
wrote.
The rest of us certainly understood what he stated, and your whole PCB
thing was just "Off the Wall" because it was obvious to the rest of the
UNIVERSE, that he had a dry transformer..............

Me

Mine was the 2nd post in the discussion, so there WAS no thread to keep
up
with. Is that clear, or do you need a diagram?

Correct.

As far as comprehending what he wrote, if I knew enough to extrapolate
from
his description, I would not have asked my question. However, as it
turned
out, it seems there *are* some parts in his UPS that may require careful
handling due to PCBs.

No, there is no PCB in that UPS. The sealed capacitors do not contain PCB.

OK....but still.



But still what???? You just can't get your mind around the issue that
you posted comments that had NO Bearing on the OP's question........
No PCB's anywhere in the stated unit. The UNIVERSE knew this before the
first reply post happened. Apparently you did not, but posted your lack
of knowledge anyway......

Me

"Me" wrote in message
...


No, there is no PCB in that UPS. The sealed capacitors do not contain
PCB.

OK....but still.



But still what???? You just can't get your mind around the issue that
you posted comments that had NO Bearing on the OP's question........
No PCB's anywhere in the stated unit. The UNIVERSE knew this before the
first reply post happened. Apparently you did not, but posted your lack
of knowledge anyway......

Me

The OP is aware of something he knew less about before this thread. There is
nothing wrong with knowledge.

In the 1980s, there was a cartoonist named Kliban, sort of a predecessor of
Gary Larson (Far Side). In one of his cartoons, there's a Neanderthal sort
of creature using a long stick to open a book from a distance, as if he's
afraid it might bite him. Sounds like you.

snipped everything

I took apart a large transformer some time ago. I don't know if it contained any PCB. If it did, it was in solid form. The reason that I took it apart was that I couldn't get it to transform from the cyborg to the jet plane. :-)

--
Bill

If the electrolyte conducted it would be a resistor.

"CM" wrote in message
ink.net...
If they are a metal can type they are most likely full of PCB oil unless
stated otherwise on the metal cans.

Maybe, if they are line voltage AC capacitors.
If they are polarized, for DC or pulsed DC, with one
terminal marked +positive and the other -negative, they are
electrolytic capacitors, without PCBs.

Electrolytic capacitors have a conductive electrolyte in them, and if they
leak they can cause a short. I had a television set damaged that way from
a
leaking electrolytic capacitor - ZAP!

CM

Gymy Bob wrote:

If the electrolyte conducted it would be a resistor.

You NEVER cease to amaze..





A few GymyBobisms..new additions daily:
======================================

At 11.6 volts a 12v battery is about 50-70% charged still.

Polish solar panels are what americans called "flashlights"

Propane will disapate and freeze when it evaporates.

Gasoline is not nearly as volatile as hydrogen.

Many people have browsers that economize the download

Let's say youre solar cell was trying to put out
14.3 volts DC and you stuck a 10 ohm meter in series with a charged 13.8
volt DC battery.

This is power grid induction through capacitive proximity

A thought I have is rain water from a roof on a three story home through a
micro-turbine.

Breakers are good for one time usage of one fault and then they need to be
replaced for any warrantied usage.

If the breaker interupts a fault, it should be replaced.No warranty will
honoured after that.

I don't have a link at this time

There are no hydrogen molecules in water and the oxygen in water isn't
flammable either.

NiCads and NiMh batterries are designed to take a current charge forever.

Did they have electricity back in 1994?

I have been around so long with this stuff I believe I invented the diode in
1941 but I am not familiar with the solar panel usage requirements of them.
(no P & N substrate explanations please. I wrote the GE manual...LOL)

NOTE: do not pass ground wires through metal holes or cable clamps with two
screws on a metal surface.

There is **NOT*** enough energy in a lightning bolt to power your house for
more than an hour...if that. Do the math.
The figures escape me but let's say it puts out a roughly MWatt of power for
100 nanoseconds?
100 x 10-9 x 1 x 106 / 3600 (sec/hr) = 0.0027 wH
oooops.... Wouldn't light your home for a 1/2 second.
OK..OK.. multiply the figures time 100 or 1000. Now it would light a 100W
bulb for 1 second.

The IEEE-232 standards were never followed or known by many.

Fossil fuels are still renewable and being cxreated as we speak.

Children are venerially created.

If you want to discuss this then fine, otherwise go **** yourself like your
mother did.

Can you let go of my dick before it explodes on ya, goofball?

Petroleum is not related to Natural gas.

I would rather work at my $100/hour job than at chopping wood for hours to
save $3/hour

I have no license, I wire and inspect other's wiring for a job and work for
a medium size electrical utility.

The majority prefers top posting.

Get your tear ducts flushed by a knowledgeable optometrist.

Not many materials have the huge exponential resistance/heat curve aluminum
does. Overload doesn't make it glow like copper...it flashes and explodes.

A bathroom fan motor would never push hot air down ten feet or cold up ten
feet.

Bathroom fans have a hard time pushing 55 cfm through a 3-4" pipe 20
horizontal feet. They are made to vent smells and humid air horizontally
only.

Why not spend the money on a contract with the grid company and get an
exclusive line to your house and never have brownouts.

Usenet rules dictate top posting for readability

Many cell modems are set up to filter bottom posts out.

Cell modems do not cut off anything.

What security flaws. (refering to Outlook Express)

Bottom posting was the was in the 70s and 80s before threading browsers were
available cheap (like OE)

What is a PMW?

10 pounds per gallon Imperial. That gallon is totally unique to the
US....ooops..I think all gallons are unique to the US now.

The standard Imperial gallon the whole world used weighs 10 pounds exactly.

The copper isn't worth more than 5 cents per pound. It is classed a mixed
copper and nobody wants it.

Hey moron! The copper is considered "mixed" copper and is worth about $0.02
per pound, if he seperates it all.

Just don't ever lose weight. Toxins are stored in your fat cells.

Did you know, **NO***, I repeat ***NO*** death has ever been related to
PCBs?

Insulated square copper wires from a dry transformer are not 99% copper and
take a lot of work to remove the insulation.

I have tonnes of insulated copper wire if you want it. I think you could
almost have for the picking it up. How many bins can you take per year

Can't this tranformer be used by somebody to generate a second 120V from a
single phase 120V inverter? It sounds pretty beefy.

BTW: once you knock the wedge out of the coil form the laminations will be
easier to get out. This keeps them from buzzing until the varnish and other
impregnations go into it.

All you guys have a bad Christmas or Jewish and didn't see Santa or something?

Run each signal twisted with a ground for noise. RD twisted with gnd as a
pair, TD twisted around ground as a pair etc... This means signal/logic
ground not power ground or case ground, if they are different. Do not
connect the other ends of the ground conductors.

Tar pitch in a flourescent ballast does ***NOT*** contain PCBs and probably
never did.

Religion is not genetic or even herodigious

I believe the warmest part of the lake is just below the ice. As the water
frezes it rises to the top and joins the other ice formations.

Gel cell won't cut it when it comes to putting out 100A or more. They cook
in ne spot and the rest of the electrolyte doesn't circulate fast enough

If the electrolyte conducted it would be a resistor.

Gymy Bob wrote:

If the electrolyte conducted it would be a resistor.

Bob, Bob, Bob....

It does conduct. I know it conducts because
I've had to clean and repair hardware where
a capacitor burped up electrolyte onto circuitry.
Circuitry that didn't work anymore because the
electrolyte was conducting.

Please stop guessing.



"CM" wrote in message
ink.net...

If they are a metal can type they are most likely full of PCB oil unless
stated otherwise on the metal cans.

Maybe, if they are line voltage AC capacitors.
If they are polarized, for DC or pulsed DC, with one
terminal marked +positive and the other -negative, they are
electrolytic capacitors, without PCBs.

Electrolytic capacitors have a conductive electrolyte in them, and if they
leak they can cause a short. I had a television set damaged that way from

a

leaking electrolytic capacitor - ZAP!

CM

Geee. I would take a few brain cells to conclude your cap was defective if
it burped. Ya' think that would be cause you have conductive electrolyte?
Maybe the electrolyte was full of carbon after the internal fault?

Go back and take some very basic electronics, or maybe just study some.
Electrolytes are not conductors of electricity in a capacitor.

OK.. let's start at the beginning.
A capacitor is two conductive metal plates separated by an insulating
medium. Now add electrolyte. Did ya' get a resistor? Ever put your ohmmeter
(do I need to explain an ohmmeter also?) across a capacitor? It measures
infinity after charging to the supply voltage because the electrolyte is an
insulator.

See how that works? That wasn't too hard. Was it? Now try to remember for
next time. Are you an electrician too?

If you want to be insulting, make sure it isn't yourself you are ridiculing.


"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
...
Gymy Bob wrote:

If the electrolyte conducted it would be a resistor.

Bob, Bob, Bob....

It does conduct. I know it conducts because
I've had to clean and repair hardware where
a capacitor burped up electrolyte onto circuitry.
Circuitry that didn't work anymore because the
electrolyte was conducting.

Please stop guessing.



"CM" wrote in message
ink.net...

If they are a metal can type they are most likely full of PCB oil
unless
stated otherwise on the metal cans.

Maybe, if they are line voltage AC capacitors.
If they are polarized, for DC or pulsed DC, with one
terminal marked +positive and the other -negative, they are
electrolytic capacitors, without PCBs.

Electrolytic capacitors have a conductive electrolyte in them, and if
they
leak they can cause a short. I had a television set damaged that way
from

a

leaking electrolytic capacitor - ZAP!

CM

Gymy Bob wrote:
Geee. I would take a few brain cells to conclude your cap was defective if
it burped. Ya' think that would be cause you have conductive electrolyte?
Maybe the electrolyte was full of carbon after the internal fault?

Go back and take some very basic electronics, or maybe just study some.
Electrolytes are not conductors of electricity in a capacitor.

OK.. let's start at the beginning.
A capacitor is two conductive metal plates separated by an insulating
medium. Now add electrolyte. Did ya' get a resistor? Ever put your ohmmeter
(do I need to explain an ohmmeter also?) across a capacitor? It measures
infinity after charging to the supply voltage because the electrolyte is an
insulator.

See how that works? That wasn't too hard. Was it? Now try to remember for
next time. Are you an electrician too?


You truly amaze. This is the second bit of misinformation in just a few
hours. Electrolytes make pretty GOOD conductors. That's probably WHY they
are called electrolytes. Now, sometimes we DON'T want current to flow, so
the **DIELECTRIC** was invented.

In some (all?) electrolytic caps, the dielectric is an oxide layer.. This is
a very thin layer that allows good storage capacity in a smaller physical
size. The conductive electrolyte makes up the negative side of the thing.


http://www.tpub.com/neets/book2/3f.htm


How does it feel to know so much and be WRONG about all of it?


mike

--
The trouble with people is not that they don't know but that they know so
much that ain't so.

~Josh Billings

Gymy Bob wrote:
Geee. I would take a few brain cells to conclude your cap was defective if
it burped. Ya' think that would be cause you have conductive electrolyte?
Maybe the electrolyte was full of carbon after the internal fault?

But it wasn't, Bob. Read on...

Go back and take some very basic electronics, or maybe just study some.
Electrolytes are not conductors of electricity in a capacitor.

Um, yes they are.

OK.. let's start at the beginning.
A capacitor is two conductive metal plates separated by an insulating
medium. Now add electrolyte. Did ya' get a resistor? Ever put your ohmmeter
(do I need to explain an ohmmeter also?) across a capacitor? It measures
infinity after charging to the supply voltage because the electrolyte is an
insulator.

It reads infinity because there's an oxide
layer on the anode. Oxide, at least in this
case, is an insulator.

See how that works? That wasn't too hard. Was it? Now try to remember for
next time. Are you an electrician too?

I can play with the big wires or the small wires.
Same electrons either way.

If you want to be insulting, make sure it isn't yourself you are ridiculing.

Trying real hard not to...

here's a quote from the Elna capacitor
website at:

http://www.elna.co.jp/en/ct/c_al01.htm

Aluminum electrolytic capacitors are made by layering the electrolytic
paper between the anode and cathode foils, and then coiling the result.
The process of preparing an electrode facing the etched anode foil
surface is extremely difficult. Therefore, the opposing electrode is
created by filling the structure with an electrolyte. Due to this
process, the electrolyte essentially functions as the cathode. The basic
functional requirements for the electrolyte are as follows:
(1)

Chemically stable when it comes in contact with materials used in the
anode, cathode, and electrolytic paper.
(2)

Easily wets the surfaces of the electrode.
(3)

Electrically conductive.
(4)

Has the chemical ability to protect the anode oxide thin film and
compensate for any weaknesses therein.
(5)

Low volatility even at high temperatures.
(6)

Long-term stability and characteristics that take into consideration
such things as toxicity.


Take a look at #4, Bob. It says that
electrolyte is electrically conductive.





"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
...

Gymy Bob wrote:


If the electrolyte conducted it would be a resistor.

Bob, Bob, Bob....

It does conduct. I know it conducts because
I've had to clean and repair hardware where
a capacitor burped up electrolyte onto circuitry.
Circuitry that didn't work anymore because the
electrolyte was conducting.

Please stop guessing.



"CM" wrote in message
thlink.net...


If they are a metal can type they are most likely full of PCB oil

unless

stated otherwise on the metal cans.

Maybe, if they are line voltage AC capacitors.
If they are polarized, for DC or pulsed DC, with one
terminal marked +positive and the other -negative, they are
electrolytic capacitors, without PCBs.

Electrolytic capacitors have a conductive electrolyte in them, and if

they

leak they can cause a short. I had a television set damaged that way

from

a


leaking electrolytic capacitor - ZAP!

CM

Yup, I got that one wrong. You were correct. Sorry. Wrong technology. Thanx
for that information and correction!

"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
...
But it wasn't, Bob. Read on...
Um, yes they are.

It reads infinity because there's an oxide
layer on the anode. Oxide, at least in this
case, is an insulator.

I can play with the big wires or the small wires.
Same electrons either way.
Trying real hard not to...

here's a quote from the Elna capacitor
website at:

http://www.elna.co.jp/en/ct/c_al01.htm

Aluminum electrolytic capacitors are made by layering the electrolytic
paper between the anode and cathode foils, and then coiling the result.
The process of preparing an electrode facing the etched anode foil
surface is extremely difficult. Therefore, the opposing electrode is
created by filling the structure with an electrolyte. Due to this
process, the electrolyte essentially functions as the cathode. The basic
functional requirements for the electrolyte are as follows:
(1)

Chemically stable when it comes in contact with materials used in the
anode, cathode, and electrolytic paper.
(2)

Easily wets the surfaces of the electrode.
(3)

Electrically conductive.
(4)

Has the chemical ability to protect the anode oxide thin film and
compensate for any weaknesses therein.
(5)

Low volatility even at high temperatures.
(6)

Long-term stability and characteristics that take into consideration
such things as toxicity.


Take a look at #4, Bob. It says that
electrolyte is electrically conductive.

On Thu, 6 Jan 2005 19:44:15 -0500, "Gymy Bob"
wrote:

Geee. I would take a few brain cells to conclude your cap was defective if
it burped. Ya' think that would be cause you have conductive electrolyte?
Maybe the electrolyte was full of carbon after the internal fault?

Go back and take some very basic electronics, or maybe just study some.
Electrolytes are not conductors of electricity in a capacitor.

OK.. let's start at the beginning.
A capacitor is two conductive metal plates separated by an insulating
medium. Now add electrolyte. Did ya' get a resistor? Ever put your ohmmeter
(do I need to explain an ohmmeter also?) across a capacitor? It measures
infinity after charging to the supply voltage because the electrolyte is an
insulator.

See how that works? That wasn't too hard. Was it? Now try to remember for
next time. Are you an electrician too?

If you want to be insulting, make sure it isn't yourself you are ridiculing.


"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
...
Gymy Bob wrote:

If the electrolyte conducted it would be a resistor.

Bob, Bob, Bob....

It does conduct. I know it conducts because
I've had to clean and repair hardware where
a capacitor burped up electrolyte onto circuitry.
Circuitry that didn't work anymore because the
electrolyte was conducting.

Please stop guessing.



"CM" wrote in message
ink.net...

If they are a metal can type they are most likely full of PCB oil
unless
stated otherwise on the metal cans.

Maybe, if they are line voltage AC capacitors.
If they are polarized, for DC or pulsed DC, with one
terminal marked +positive and the other -negative, they are
electrolytic capacitors, without PCBs.

Electrolytic capacitors have a conductive electrolyte in them, and if
they
leak they can cause a short. I had a television set damaged that way
from

a

leaking electrolytic capacitor - ZAP!

CM






SOME leaking electrolytes are corrosive when "in the wild".

When electrolytic caps short is is due to "thorns" growing on the
plates and punching through, shorting the plates together. Then they
heat up and blow.
When they go, they often take out other components around them.

Sorry for the old article followup, but it took awhile to get back to
this...

On 3 Jan 2005 18:41:58 -0800, Tony Wesley wrote:
Gymy Bob wrote:
Did you know, **NO***, I repeat ***NO*** death has ever been related
to
PCBs?

From
http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/epic/inter...gr-71897e.html

"Unfortunately, Japan's PCB history is tinged with tragedy. In 1968, an
accidental mixing of PCB with rice oil affected 14,000 people and
resulted in 300 deaths."

Almost certainly that was due to contaminates that came with the PCBs,
(PCDFs/furons or PCDDs/dioxins) not the PCBs themselves. Many, many
studies have shown no acute toxicity from PCB exposure either dermal,
inhaled or ingested.

Common table salt is toxic. Are you familar with LD50 and LC50 measures
of toxicity? You cannot compare LD50 across species, and I don't know
any PCBs LD50 for humans. The human LD50 for salt is about 3000mg/kg.

Oh, one other thing to note while reading studies on health affects,
"toxic" does not mean fatal. It just means bad effect, eg
http://www.greenfacts.org/glossary/tuv/toxic.htm

http://www.foxriverwatch.com/dermal_...b_pcbs_1e.html summarizes 31
studies, including multiple covering the incident in Japan to which you
refer. The common conclusion is that PCB exposure is not fatal to
humans and generally not fatal to animals (but different species show
vastly different reactions).

''Clinical studies of the health effects of PCB exposure have shown that
the skin is the only organ system affected by PCB exposure and that the
skin disorders, primarily chloracne, occurred only in persons
occupationally exposed to relatively high PCB concentrations. In
contrast to experimental animal studies, other organ systems such as the
liver and immune and hematopoietic systems of humans are not affected.
The divergence between the effects observed in humans and animals may
reflect differences in interspecies susceptibility and exposure. The
authors conclude that there appears to be little basis for the concern
for internal organ system toxicity, especially since use and disposal of
PCBs is now strictly controlled. (James et al, 1993)''

and

''Both Yusho and Yu-Cheng specimens contained numerous isomers of
trichlorinated and hexachlorinated dibenzofurans. The oils involved in
both incidents contained similar compositions of PCQs; they appeared to
have similar ratios of the six types of PCQ in their basic makeup. In
general, Yusho and Yu-Cheng samples were composed of similar congeners;
the tissue levels of PCQs, PCDFs, and PCBs remained elevated and
clinical symptoms persisted for over 10 years. In occupationally PCB
exposed workers, on the other hand, dermal lesions and other symptoms
disappeared rapidly after discontinuation of PCB handling, although PCB
levels remained high. The authors conclude that PCDFs and PCQs appear to
be strongly associated with the development of Yusho and Yu-Cheng.
(Miyata et al, 1985)''

sdb
--
Wanted: Omnibook 800 & accessories, cheap, working or not
sdbuse1 on mailhost bigfoot.com

Didn't the new President of the Ukraine suffer from dioxin poisoning? It is
said to have been fed to him by his political opponents. Gave him a hell of
a case of chloracne that has completely disfigured him.

Tom
"Sylvan Butler" wrote in message
ernal...
Sorry for the old article followup, but it took awhile to get back to
this...

On 3 Jan 2005 18:41:58 -0800, Tony Wesley wrote:
Gymy Bob wrote:
Did you know, **NO***, I repeat ***NO*** death has ever been related
to
PCBs?

From
http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/epic/inter...gr-71897e.html

"Unfortunately, Japan's PCB history is tinged with tragedy. In 1968, an
accidental mixing of PCB with rice oil affected 14,000 people and
resulted in 300 deaths."

Almost certainly that was due to contaminates that came with the PCBs,
(PCDFs/furons or PCDDs/dioxins) not the PCBs themselves. Many, many
studies have shown no acute toxicity from PCB exposure either dermal,
inhaled or ingested.

Common table salt is toxic. Are you familar with LD50 and LC50 measures
of toxicity? You cannot compare LD50 across species, and I don't know
any PCBs LD50 for humans. The human LD50 for salt is about 3000mg/kg.

Oh, one other thing to note while reading studies on health affects,
"toxic" does not mean fatal. It just means bad effect, eg
http://www.greenfacts.org/glossary/tuv/toxic.htm

http://www.foxriverwatch.com/dermal_...b_pcbs_1e.html summarizes 31
studies, including multiple covering the incident in Japan to which you
refer. The common conclusion is that PCB exposure is not fatal to
humans and generally not fatal to animals (but different species show
vastly different reactions).

''Clinical studies of the health effects of PCB exposure have shown that
the skin is the only organ system affected by PCB exposure and that the
skin disorders, primarily chloracne, occurred only in persons
occupationally exposed to relatively high PCB concentrations. In
contrast to experimental animal studies, other organ systems such as the
liver and immune and hematopoietic systems of humans are not affected.
The divergence between the effects observed in humans and animals may
reflect differences in interspecies susceptibility and exposure. The
authors conclude that there appears to be little basis for the concern
for internal organ system toxicity, especially since use and disposal of
PCBs is now strictly controlled. (James et al, 1993)''

and

''Both Yusho and Yu-Cheng specimens contained numerous isomers of
trichlorinated and hexachlorinated dibenzofurans. The oils involved in
both incidents contained similar compositions of PCQs; they appeared to
have similar ratios of the six types of PCQ in their basic makeup. In
general, Yusho and Yu-Cheng samples were composed of similar congeners;
the tissue levels of PCQs, PCDFs, and PCBs remained elevated and
clinical symptoms persisted for over 10 years. In occupationally PCB
exposed workers, on the other hand, dermal lesions and other symptoms
disappeared rapidly after discontinuation of PCB handling, although PCB
levels remained high. The authors conclude that PCDFs and PCQs appear to
be strongly associated with the development of Yusho and Yu-Cheng.
(Miyata et al, 1985)''

sdb
--
Wanted: Omnibook 800 & accessories, cheap, working or not
sdbuse1 on mailhost bigfoot.com