|
HVAC seeking to boost air flow
Trying to remedy a rube goldberg duct work system that results in, ...,
less than optimal air flow to the far end of a run. What I can determine by eye, tape, and feeling around up inside the duct looks like this: * GMPN080-4 furnace/AC, plenum & duct work originally serving 1288 sq ft * All original branches used top take offs & 6" flex pipe - all work fine * Two long runs into garage/workshop area were added later - 576 sq ft * Each run to 3 4x12 registers spaced above windows & along outside walls The concerns I have with one particular run are all the twists and turns and I know thats killing the air flow. I make it about 65 feet but I know each change in direction makes it seem like more. How much more I don't know... * Top take off to 18 ft of 7" flex pipe between floor joists * Then to a metal 90 and 5 ft of 7" flex pipe across the bottom of the joists * Then to a metal 7" round to 7" oval straight boot * Then to 2 vertical 45s 7" ovals to get back up inside the joists * Then to a 90 and 10 feet up inside the wall cavity with 7" oval * Then to another 90 to get horizontal again * Then to a 7" oval to 7" straight boot * Then 24 ft (or so) straight 7" metal pipe with 2 of the registers * Then a 90 to 8 more feet of straight pipe with 1 of the registers I can't see any other way to have done the ducts given the constraints of joists / walls / register locations. I can see 3 different things to try: 1) get rid of the flex duct and go all metal (reduce resistance ?) 2) install an in duct aux fan in basement and/or out in work shop 3) boost the main fan speed #1 appears easiest/cheapest thing to try but will it help ? #2 might be exactly what is needed but I really have no idea. #3 is beyond me. I have no manual & no idea how to check it but I've read that this unit has 3 selectable speeds. I'd really hate to pay a pro $100 or whatever to come out and flip a dip switch. If anybody has the book on this unit... Any advice from a pro/handyman/DIYer welcome. -- Scotch. |
Are dampers in the other duct runs? If not, dampers should be installed
so you can balance the airflow. If you can use high-speed fan, it will increase the pressure through the long narrow ducts, providing you can damper balance the duct system. You have a real mess there. A HREF="http://www.udarrell.com/proper_cfm_btuh_duct_sizing_air_conditioning_syste ms.html" A HREF="http://www.udarrell.com/my_pages2.htm#MY_AIR_CONDITIONING_PAGES" udarrell Darrell BrowserGuy wrote: Trying to remedy a rube goldberg duct work system that results in, ..., less than optimal air flow to the far end of a run. What I can determine by eye, tape, and feeling around up inside the duct looks like this: * GMPN080-4 furnace/AC, plenum & duct work originally serving 1288 sq ft * All original branches used top take offs & 6" flex pipe - all work fine * Two long runs into garage/workshop area were added later - 576 sq ft * Each run to 3 4x12 registers spaced above windows & along outside walls The concerns I have with one particular run are all the twists and turns and I know thats killing the air flow. I make it about 65 feet but I know each change in direction makes it seem like more. How much more I don't know... * Top take off to 18 ft of 7" flex pipe between floor joists * Then to a metal 90 and 5 ft of 7" flex pipe across the bottom of the joists * Then to a metal 7" round to 7" oval straight boot * Then to 2 vertical 45s 7" ovals to get back up inside the joists * Then to a 90 and 10 feet up inside the wall cavity with 7" oval * Then to another 90 to get horizontal again * Then to a 7" oval to 7" straight boot * Then 24 ft (or so) straight 7" metal pipe with 2 of the registers * Then a 90 to 8 more feet of straight pipe with 1 of the registers I can't see any other way to have done the ducts given the constraints of joists / walls / register locations. I can see 3 different things to try: 1) get rid of the flex duct and go all metal (reduce resistance ?) 2) install an in duct aux fan in basement and/or out in work shop 3) boost the main fan speed #1 appears easiest/cheapest thing to try but will it help ? #2 might be exactly what is needed but I really have no idea. #3 is beyond me. I have no manual & no idea how to check it but I've read that this unit has 3 selectable speeds. I'd really hate to pay a pro $100 or whatever to come out and flip a dip switch. If anybody has the book on this unit... Any advice from a pro/handyman/DIYer welcome. |
"BrowserGuy" wrote in message
... Trying to remedy a rube goldberg duct work system that results in, ..., less than optimal air flow to the far end of a run. What I can determine by eye, tape, and feeling around up inside the duct looks like this: * GMPN080-4 furnace/AC, plenum & duct work originally serving 1288 sq ft * All original branches used top take offs & 6" flex pipe - all work fine * Two long runs into garage/workshop area were added later - 576 sq ft * Each run to 3 4x12 registers spaced above windows & along outside walls The concerns I have with one particular run are all the twists and turns and I know thats killing the air flow. I make it about 65 feet but I know each change in direction makes it seem like more. How much more I don't know... * Top take off to 18 ft of 7" flex pipe between floor joists * Then to a metal 90 and 5 ft of 7" flex pipe across the bottom of the joists * Then to a metal 7" round to 7" oval straight boot * Then to 2 vertical 45s 7" ovals to get back up inside the joists * Then to a 90 and 10 feet up inside the wall cavity with 7" oval * Then to another 90 to get horizontal again * Then to a 7" oval to 7" straight boot * Then 24 ft (or so) straight 7" metal pipe with 2 of the registers * Then a 90 to 8 more feet of straight pipe with 1 of the registers I can't see any other way to have done the ducts given the constraints of joists / walls / register locations. I can see 3 different things to try: 1) get rid of the flex duct and go all metal (reduce resistance ?) 2) install an in duct aux fan in basement and/or out in work shop 3) boost the main fan speed #1 appears easiest/cheapest thing to try but will it help ? #2 might be exactly what is needed but I really have no idea. #3 is beyond me. I have no manual & no idea how to check it but I've read that this unit has 3 selectable speeds. I'd really hate to pay a pro $100 or whatever to come out and flip a dip switch. If anybody has the book on this unit... Any advice from a pro/handyman/DIYer welcome. -- Scotch. I am sorry, but there are not easy fixes and without a proper total evaluation and correction, you will only be adding to the Rube Goldberg system. To start with you need to do a Manual "D" to get all the data you need to figure all this stuff out. It does the math to get it right. I also suggest that you will need a experienced professional. This is an art form that needs the years of experience of finding ways of addressing those construction situations that seem to defy doing the job right. Any good professional will do the Manual "D" and I would not be surprised if they wanted to do other "Manuals" to assure your HVAC equipment was up to the task. -- Joseph E. Meehan 26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math |
Joseph Meehan wrote:
I am sorry, but there are not easy fixes and without a proper total evaluation and correction, you will only be adding to the Rube Goldberg system. To start with you need to do a Manual "D" to get all the data you need to figure all this stuff out. It does the math to get it right. I also suggest that you will need a experienced professional. This is an art form that needs the years of experience of finding ways of addressing those construction situations that seem to defy doing the job right. Any good professional will do the Manual "D" and I would not be surprised if they wanted to do other "Manuals" to assure your HVAC equipment was up to the task. Right on Joe! |
"BrowserGuy" wrote in message ... Trying to remedy a rube goldberg duct work system that results in, ..., less than optimal air flow to the far end of a run. What I can determine by eye, tape, and feeling around up inside the duct looks like this: * GMPN080-4 furnace/AC, plenum & duct work originally serving 1288 sq ft * All original branches used top take offs & 6" flex pipe - all work fine * Two long runs into garage/workshop area were added later - 576 sq ft * Each run to 3 4x12 registers spaced above windows & along outside walls The concerns I have with one particular run are all the twists and turns and I know thats killing the air flow. I make it about 65 feet but I know each change in direction makes it seem like more. How much more I don't know... * Top take off to 18 ft of 7" flex pipe between floor joists * Then to a metal 90 and 5 ft of 7" flex pipe across the bottom of the joists * Then to a metal 7" round to 7" oval straight boot * Then to 2 vertical 45s 7" ovals to get back up inside the joists * Then to a 90 and 10 feet up inside the wall cavity with 7" oval * Then to another 90 to get horizontal again * Then to a 7" oval to 7" straight boot * Then 24 ft (or so) straight 7" metal pipe with 2 of the registers * Then a 90 to 8 more feet of straight pipe with 1 of the registers I can't see any other way to have done the ducts given the constraints of joists / walls / register locations. I can see 3 different things to try: 1) get rid of the flex duct and go all metal (reduce resistance ?) 2) install an in duct aux fan in basement and/or out in work shop 3) boost the main fan speed #1 appears easiest/cheapest thing to try but will it help ? #2 might be exactly what is needed but I really have no idea. #3 is beyond me. I have no manual & no idea how to check it but I've read that this unit has 3 selectable speeds. I'd really hate to pay a pro $100 or whatever to come out and flip a dip switch. If anybody has the book on this unit... Any advice from a pro/handyman/DIYer welcome. -- Scotch. Ok you want to do this yourself, I would not; but that is an different story. Start with the fan. You have an model number, hopefully there is an manufacture. Locate an wiring diagram FIRST. Failing that locate an wiring document for the motor and go backwards. NOTE this is will effect the run time of the unit. Faster fan speed = lower out going temp in heat mode, longer run time. Personally I would call someone to do this. What are you going to do when you short out the motor and you have no heat at all? |
On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 09:33:09 -0700, "SQLit"
wrote: "BrowserGuy" wrote in message .. . Trying to remedy a rube goldberg duct work system that results in, ..., less than optimal air flow to the far end of a run. What I can determine by eye, tape, and feeling around up inside the duct looks like this: * GMPN080-4 furnace/AC, plenum & duct work originally serving 1288 sq ft * All original branches used top take offs & 6" flex pipe - all work fine * Two long runs into garage/workshop area were added later - 576 sq ft * Each run to 3 4x12 registers spaced above windows & along outside walls The concerns I have with one particular run are all the twists and turns and I know thats killing the air flow. I make it about 65 feet but I know each change in direction makes it seem like more. How much more I don't know... * Top take off to 18 ft of 7" flex pipe between floor joists * Then to a metal 90 and 5 ft of 7" flex pipe across the bottom of the joists * Then to a metal 7" round to 7" oval straight boot * Then to 2 vertical 45s 7" ovals to get back up inside the joists * Then to a 90 and 10 feet up inside the wall cavity with 7" oval * Then to another 90 to get horizontal again * Then to a 7" oval to 7" straight boot * Then 24 ft (or so) straight 7" metal pipe with 2 of the registers * Then a 90 to 8 more feet of straight pipe with 1 of the registers I can't see any other way to have done the ducts given the constraints of joists / walls / register locations. I can see 3 different things to try: 1) get rid of the flex duct and go all metal (reduce resistance ?) 2) install an in duct aux fan in basement and/or out in work shop 3) boost the main fan speed #1 appears easiest/cheapest thing to try but will it help ? #2 might be exactly what is needed but I really have no idea. #3 is beyond me. I have no manual & no idea how to check it but I've read that this unit has 3 selectable speeds. I'd really hate to pay a pro $100 or whatever to come out and flip a dip switch. If anybody has the book on this unit... Any advice from a pro/handyman/DIYer welcome. -- Scotch. Ok you want to do this yourself, I would not; but that is an different story. Start with the fan. You have an model number, hopefully there is an manufacture. Locate an wiring diagram FIRST. Failing that locate an wiring document for the motor and go backwards. NOTE this is will effect the run time of the unit. Faster fan speed = lower out going temp in heat mode, longer run time. Nope. Faster fan speed = Higher heat output = Shorter run time Personally I would call someone to do this. What are you going to do when you short out the motor and you have no heat at all? Gary R. Lloyd CMS HVACR Troubleshooting Books/Software http://www.techmethod.com |
"Joseph Meehan" wrote in message ... I am sorry, but there are not easy fixes and without a proper total evaluation and correction, you will only be adding to the Rube Goldberg system. To start with you need to do a Manual "D" to get all the data you need to figure all this stuff out. It does the math to get it right. To start with its likely the manual "D" was *already* done, and now with this clusterfu*k glommed onto it's just costing him in money and lack of overall comfort. Probably would be best to just tear out that hacked in ducting, and go back to using *that* system as it was designed..... Set up a complete separate system to heat / cool the garage and workshop on an as-needed basis, this unless perhaps he spends more time in the garage than he does in the house--and even in that case by having a separately controlled system he would have the option of controlling / adjusting both systems to heat / cool only the space he is currently using. -- SVL |
Gary , you said " faster fan = higher output = shorter run time " .
nope, faster fan without more btu cannot equal higher output. It will be Lower at supplys because more air is moving over the same heat source. It moves the air around more but btu is a btu, or for efficiency you would need and be specified high fan. |
"BrowserGuy" wrote in message ... * GMPN080-4 furnace/AC, plenum & duct work originally serving 1288 sq ft * All original branches used top take offs & 6" flex pipe - all work fine * Two long runs into garage/workshop area were added later - 576 sq ft * Each run to 3 4x12 registers spaced above windows & along outside walls This part about the garage scares me, totally against code in most areas to heat your garage with the house's furnace. Now if this is remodeled space that you can no longer get a car into, then no problem. If it is still a garage, rip out all the duct work that attaches to the house's furance, and add a second furance to heat just the garage. The two systems need to be completely independant of each other, and no connection what so ever for air to flow from the garage to the home. Greg |
On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:14:51 -0600, "Greg O"
wrote: "BrowserGuy" wrote in message .. . * GMPN080-4 furnace/AC, plenum & duct work originally serving 1288 sq ft * All original branches used top take offs & 6" flex pipe - all work fine * Two long runs into garage/workshop area were added later - 576 sq ft * Each run to 3 4x12 registers spaced above windows & along outside walls This part about the garage scares me, totally against code in most areas to heat your garage with the house's furnace. Now if this is remodeled space that you can no longer get a car into, then no problem. If it is still a garage, rip out all the duct work that attaches to the house's furance, and add a second furance to heat just the garage. The two systems need to be completely independant of each other, and no connection what so ever for air to flow from the garage to the home. Greg You could legally have a heat run into the garage, but you couldn't have a return out of it. That means it wouldn't work properly anyway. The best idea is a seperate system, pay attention to the elevation requirements and the UL listing of the unit you choose to use. Dan |
"BrowserGuy" wrote in message ... Trying to remedy a rube goldberg duct work system that results in, ..., less than optimal air flow to the far end of a run. What I can determine by eye, tape, and feeling around up inside the duct looks like this: * GMPN080-4 furnace/AC, plenum & duct work originally serving 1288 sq ft * All original branches used top take offs & 6" flex pipe - all work fine * Two long runs into garage/workshop area were added later - 576 sq ft * Each run to 3 4x12 registers spaced above windows & along outside walls The concerns I have with one particular run are all the twists and turns and I know thats killing the air flow. I make it about 65 feet but I know each change in direction makes it seem like more. How much more I don't know... * Top take off to 18 ft of 7" flex pipe between floor joists * Then to a metal 90 and 5 ft of 7" flex pipe across the bottom of the joists * Then to a metal 7" round to 7" oval straight boot * Then to 2 vertical 45s 7" ovals to get back up inside the joists * Then to a 90 and 10 feet up inside the wall cavity with 7" oval * Then to another 90 to get horizontal again * Then to a 7" oval to 7" straight boot * Then 24 ft (or so) straight 7" metal pipe with 2 of the registers * Then a 90 to 8 more feet of straight pipe with 1 of the registers I can't see any other way to have done the ducts given the constraints of joists / walls / register locations. I can see 3 different things to try: 1) get rid of the flex duct and go all metal (reduce resistance ?) 2) install an in duct aux fan in basement and/or out in work shop 3) boost the main fan speed #1 appears easiest/cheapest thing to try but will it help ? #2 might be exactly what is needed but I really have no idea. #3 is beyond me. I have no manual & no idea how to check it but I've read that this unit has 3 selectable speeds. I'd really hate to pay a pro $100 or whatever to come out and flip a dip switch. If anybody has the book on this unit... Any advice from a pro/handyman/DIYer welcome. -- Scotch. This is Turtle. #1 Don't fool with the trashy Duct fans. #2 Boost the fan speed to see. #3 Do increase the duct sizes to make the move to area that are not getting it. If you would like to get a run on the sizing of the ducts to increase them to get the area to the ones that are not getting it. i can size them for you from the duct sizes stated by you. You can increase the fan speed if you get with me and i may be able to explain it to you to run it on black or high. I know the GMPN's series for I install then. If you e-mail me do include the serial number with the model number here. It is really nothing to change the speed on them. Get with me if you want to do #2 or #3. TURTLE |
Gary , yes a plugged filter reduces flow, but if what you were saying
was true the Low factory fan speed would reduce AFUE , higher fan speed would increase AFUE. And that simply is not the case, Increasing fan will not improve efficiency rather it will lower it by more electrical consumption. |
On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 05:37:27 -0600, (m Ransley)
wrote: Gary , yes a plugged filter reduces flow, but if what you were saying was true the Low factory fan speed would reduce AFUE , higher fan speed would increase AFUE. And that simply is not the case, Increasing fan will not improve efficiency rather it will lower it by more electrical consumption. Increasing air flow yields diminishing returns. There is a point where the small diminished increase in output is outweighed by the increase in electrical costs. Everything is balances and trade-offs. Gary R. Lloyd CMS HVACR Troubleshooting Books/Software http://www.techmethod.com |
I see, higher blower speed = more KWH cost, a trade off.
|
On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 06:47:12 -0600, (m Ransley)
wrote: I see, higher blower speed = more KWH cost, a trade off. Exactly so. The other way to increase heat transfer thus output, without increasing air flow, is to increase heat exchanger surface area, and that's what higher efficiency systems do. This strategy also yields diminishing returns. The old 'more-is-better' mentality has no place in HVACR. Like the three bears' porridge, not too hot, not too cold, but just right. Balances and trade-offs. Gary R. Lloyd CMS HVACR Troubleshooting Books/Software http://www.techmethod.com |
But an interesting thing is Carirers 96.7 % Infinity is only one unit ,
the smallest 47000? btu unit, the others in that Infinity line are in the 94 range, but if you look at the weight of the 96.7 unit you see it is 20 or so lbs heavier than the next larger unit. Obviously more sq ft in the exchanger. A marketing ploy yes, can furnaces be made 2-3% more efficient, yes. So why aren`t they, competition and lack of Gov incentives and mandates. The VS DC motors boost AFUE by 1 or so % if I follow this right. |
"m Ransley" wrote in message ... But an interesting thing is Carirers 96.7 % Infinity is only one unit , the smallest 47000? btu unit, the others in that Infinity line are in the 94 range, but if you look at the weight of the 96.7 unit you see it is 20 or so lbs heavier than the next larger unit. Obviously more sq ft in the exchanger. A marketing ploy yes, can furnaces be made 2-3% more efficient, yes. So why aren`t they, competition and lack of Gov incentives and mandates. The VS DC motors boost AFUE by 1 or so % if I follow this right. This is Turtle. When you have a 96%AFUE furnace now and about 5% of the public is buying them and the other 95% of the public is buying 80%AFUE furnaces , Well you can leed a horse to water but you can't make him drink. You can get the Government to start telling the manufactor what seer and AFUE rating they will start offering and really just telling them what equipment to make , but then you will come to a point where the manufactoring company will say this. Well Mr. Government you have control here and I'll tell you what. You start making these furnaces and we are going to make other things. Can you picture what a gas furnace would cost with the Government making and designing it. Does the words " A $1,200.00 Toilet seat ring a bell anywhere here" ? TURTLE |
Turtle refrigerators are 75% more efficient now because of regulations,
so it works. Competition keeps prices down. Polution equipment on cars works to, from regulations. And regulations keep food safe, go to Mexico where seafood is kept on a uncooled table in hot sun, and produce is watered with sewage and meat is sold unrefrigerated, yes ive seen it and got seafood poisoning there. Dont take so much for granted we have it good here and outlawing 80% units would be a good idea, competition would bring down prices just like it has done with electronics. |
|
"m Ransley" wrote in message ... Turtle refrigerators are 75% more efficient now because of regulations, so it works. Competition keeps prices down. Polution equipment on cars works to, from regulations. And regulations keep food safe, go to Mexico where seafood is kept on a uncooled table in hot sun, and produce is watered with sewage and meat is sold unrefrigerated, yes ive seen it and got seafood poisoning there. Dont take so much for granted we have it good here and outlawing 80% units would be a good idea, competition would bring down prices just like it has done with electronics. This is Turtle. Have the Government tell manufactor of gas furnaces that they can't sell any furnace that is less than 93%AFUE and you will cut out 1/2 the customers that would burn gas as a fuel and switch to electric furnaces which can't be improved any. Then you would have to put a tax on electric furnaces to raise the price of them up to the 93% furnaces to stop them from usaing electric hogs on effency and use more energy and they will not buy them either. Then they will all stop buying central air systems and go back to panel ray heaters. Then you will have the rich people having central heat and the regular Joe using panel ray heaters. When the Government steps into a industry the drive the prices to the moon. Back in about the early 1990's when the government stepped in and said that 80% AFUE was the lowest rating that could be sold. At this time the average gas furnace 80K BTU 71% AFUE cost me about $300.00 . Then after the 80% mandate come into effect this same furnace with a 80% rating cost me over $500.00. Now take to day and tell everybody you have to buy the 93+% AFUE verses the 80% AFUE. If the furnace runs about $600.00 you will be telling the public that the $600.00 furnace is no good and you will be paing $1,000.00 for it now because the Government thinks you need to save 13% more on gas to save some money on your gas bill. Like I said before when the Government steps into a industry, The prices go to the Moon. TURTLE |
|
"Gary R. Lloyd" wrote in message ... On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 04:22:56 -0600, (m Ransley) wrote: Dont take so much for granted we have it good here and outlawing 80% units would be a good idea, competition would bring down prices just like it has done with electronics. Only if they are manufactured in Asia, like electronics. Shall we allow government meddling to drive yet another industry out of this country? No !!! -- SVL |
Turtle , only a person with subsidised electric will go electric, ex
04 Kwh Now- today- electric at 0.125 Kwh is nearly 3 TIMES the cost of gas at my gas price, which is the norm for the midwest of USA. Do you remember the 1000$ microwave, sure you do, now it is 50$. Competition - demand dictates prices. |
"m Ransley" wrote in message ... Turtle , only a person with subsidised electric will go electric, ex 04 Kwh Now- today- electric at 0.125 Kwh is nearly 3 TIMES the cost of gas at my gas price, which is the norm for the midwest of USA. Do you remember the 1000$ microwave, sure you do, now it is 50$. Competition - demand dictates prices. This is Turtle. Here in Louisiana where fuel or electricity is still pretty cheap. the people with all electric homes 2,000 sq. ft. [ no heat pumps ] with straight electric 15 KW element heat still get a $200 to $300.00 electric bill during the worst cold weather times. Some even have this set up and use a panel ray heater as heat and the propane cost them about $125 a month during cold months but we only have 2 of them. Here in the South we get the fuel off the top before the middle men start getting their cut off it. Louisiana produces 1/8 of all the natural gas the U.S.A. uses totally. Now to the Microwave stuff. I can remember the $1,000.00 microwave but I bought one years ago and used it for YearS with a big S and now after giving it away to kind folk and bought a cheap one. It has been 5 years and I've bought two of them to last 5 years. Now if the government tells the hvac industry to go to 13 seer and 93+% AFUE furnaces. The hvac industry is making about 1/2 of all their equipment now over seas and in Mexico and this will make them move all their operation over seas or to Mexico. I crossed the Border here a while back at Brownville and saw manufactoring plants of Rheem , Carrier, Trane, and Lennox. The produce the parts there and ship them into the U.S. and just put them together here. If you push them, They will just start assembling them there too and just ship them in. With this push you will cut over 100,000+ employees job lost to Mexico or over seas. Another not here all of Carrier equipment will be made and shipped into the U.S. as of now. They have moved all their operation over seas. The only jobs that will get the benefit of this is Railroad workers and Trucking companys and they might just be Mexican companys doing this. The American people get screwed everytime the Government get into telling the industry what to do. The average assembly line Forman [ not worker ] get about $25.00 a day or $500.00 a month. The American counter part would want more than this. TURTLE |
| All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:23 PM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2014 DIYbanter