I have a 2 story home with basement and my 2nd floor is not cooling like it did last summer. This summer isn't really
any hotter than last year, but my 2nd floor unit runs a lot during the day, and the thermostats are set to the same
values as last summer.

I have a few thermostats/hygrometers I use around the house and taped them to the return/supplies in the master bedroom
to check the temp difference. When the attic was around 110 on a hot day, the supply was blowing in air at 68-69 and the
return was taking in air at 77. I had a technician come out to inspect and he said the 8-9 degree difference was due to
the heat loss in the runs in the attic. He quoted some degree per foot run loss, but I don't fully buy it. He also said
they shoot for a 10-12 degree diff for 2nd floors and 15-17 diff for 1st floors.

Today, I measured the temp diff around 8am when the attic temp was 74. Supply was 64, return was 69. I have a 2.5 ton
unit for the 2nd floor. I had let the unit run for a half hour to make sure the air was at its coolest.
For the downstairs, I had 57 from the supply, with 73 going in the return. The basement temp was 75, so the ducts for
the 1st floor, which are in the basement, were roughly experiencing the same amount of heat loss as those in the attic
( attic was at 74 ). The 1st floor unit is a 3 ton.

The house is almost 2 years old. The company that did the install performed a flush/recharge on both units for free
since I'm still under warranty, and that didn't help.

So, I experienced a 5 degree diff when the attic temp was at 74. The system was charged to the recommended level. The
technician came out 3 days after he flushed/recharged and checked the system again.

The airflow seems to be fine. Any thoughts ?

Are the ducts in the attic insulated? How well? Two years ago I bought a
similar house (twenty years old) and immediately replaced both HVAC systems
and all of the attic duct work. Although the new systems kept up with
Atlanta summers, I chose to also add "radiant" insulation to the attic. The
result is the attic temp. is never more than 12 degrees hotter that the
outside temp. Something to consider.

"Brad C" wrote in message
...
I have a 2 story home with basement and my 2nd floor is not cooling like
it did last summer. This summer isn't really
any hotter than last year, but my 2nd floor unit runs a lot during the
day, and the thermostats are set to the same
values as last summer.

I have a few thermostats/hygrometers I use around the house and taped them
to the return/supplies in the master bedroom
to check the temp difference. When the attic was around 110 on a hot day,
the supply was blowing in air at 68-69 and the
return was taking in air at 77. I had a technician come out to inspect and
he said the 8-9 degree difference was due to
the heat loss in the runs in the attic. He quoted some degree per foot run
loss, but I don't fully buy it. He also said
they shoot for a 10-12 degree diff for 2nd floors and 15-17 diff for 1st
floors.

Today, I measured the temp diff around 8am when the attic temp was 74.
Supply was 64, return was 69. I have a 2.5 ton
unit for the 2nd floor. I had let the unit run for a half hour to make
sure the air was at its coolest.
For the downstairs, I had 57 from the supply, with 73 going in the return.
The basement temp was 75, so the ducts for
the 1st floor, which are in the basement, were roughly experiencing the
same amount of heat loss as those in the attic
( attic was at 74 ). The 1st floor unit is a 3 ton.

The house is almost 2 years old. The company that did the install
performed a flush/recharge on both units for free
since I'm still under warranty, and that didn't help.

So, I experienced a 5 degree diff when the attic temp was at 74. The
system was charged to the recommended level. The
technician came out 3 days after he flushed/recharged and checked the
system again.

The airflow seems to be fine. Any thoughts ?

I live in Smyrna, so I'm also getting the Atlanta summer.

The house was built in October 2002. It has ridge vents running the full length of it. All ducts are insulated. There is
blown insulation in the attic. The return ducts are on the attic floor and get some covering from the blown insulationas
well. The supply ducts are suspended overhead in the attic, so they only have the standard insulation around the duct.

The high temp in the attic is definitely causing cooling loss during the day, but the thing that concerns me is during
the morning, when I took the last set of measurements, the attic was only 74 degrees. The supply was 64 and the return
was 69, so the unit was dropping the temp 5 degrees with an attic temp of 74. When the attic temp was 110, it was
dropping the temp 7-8 degrees. This would seem to indicate that the unit can't cool air beyond 64 degrees. That seems
like a problem attributed to something other than cooling loss thru the ducts since the unit on the 1st floor drops it
17 degrees under pretty much the same conditions. The difference between the two units is upstairs is 2.5 ton and
downstairs is a 3 ton. That shouldn't cause the problem I'm seeing.

I didn't have this problem last summer. I have programmable thermostats set to the same schedule as last year. My power
usage this year for May increased 76%, June was 78%, July was 21%, August was 21%. July and August didn't increase as
much as May and June, but that is because the AC is running a lot during those last 2 summer months anyway, so there
wasn't really much more it could run. We started using the AC in mid April of this year. It's usage was 16% higher. The
months where we used heat only had an increase in usage of only 1%~2%. AC is running a lot more this year, and the
summer this year isn't really hotter than last year's.

The easiest thing to quantify out of all these numbers is that I know the upstairs runs a lot more. The fact that it
only drops the temp from 5-8 degrees upstars between return and supply is proof.

"Joe Fabeitz" wrote in message ...
Are the ducts in the attic insulated? How well? Two years ago I bought a
similar house (twenty years old) and immediately replaced both HVAC systems
and all of the attic duct work. Although the new systems kept up with
Atlanta summers, I chose to also add "radiant" insulation to the attic. The
result is the attic temp. is never more than 12 degrees hotter that the
outside temp. Something to consider.

"Brad C" wrote in message
...
I have a 2 story home with basement and my 2nd floor is not cooling like
it did last summer. This summer isn't really
any hotter than last year, but my 2nd floor unit runs a lot during the
day, and the thermostats are set to the same
values as last summer.

I have a few thermostats/hygrometers I use around the house and taped them
to the return/supplies in the master bedroom
to check the temp difference. When the attic was around 110 on a hot day,
the supply was blowing in air at 68-69 and the
return was taking in air at 77. I had a technician come out to inspect and
he said the 8-9 degree difference was due to
the heat loss in the runs in the attic. He quoted some degree per foot run
loss, but I don't fully buy it. He also said
they shoot for a 10-12 degree diff for 2nd floors and 15-17 diff for 1st
floors.

Today, I measured the temp diff around 8am when the attic temp was 74.
Supply was 64, return was 69. I have a 2.5 ton
unit for the 2nd floor. I had let the unit run for a half hour to make
sure the air was at its coolest.
For the downstairs, I had 57 from the supply, with 73 going in the return.
The basement temp was 75, so the ducts for
the 1st floor, which are in the basement, were roughly experiencing the
same amount of heat loss as those in the attic
( attic was at 74 ). The 1st floor unit is a 3 ton.

The house is almost 2 years old. The company that did the install
performed a flush/recharge on both units for free
since I'm still under warranty, and that didn't help.

So, I experienced a 5 degree diff when the attic temp was at 74. The
system was charged to the recommended level. The
technician came out 3 days after he flushed/recharged and checked the
system again.

The airflow seems to be fine. Any thoughts ?

Brad;

It seems to me, the upstairs unit is not performing well. You should expect
approximately 15º - 20º temperature difference between return temperature &
supply temperature (similar to what you're finding for the downstairs unit.)
Albeit the attic ducts do add some heat, the insulation commonly has a
rating of R-4.2 per foot and adds some degree of temperature (or loss) to
the air, but shouldn't influence the performance. The contractor should
have taken all of that in to account when the system was designed.

Bottom line, you might have either one of two problems, (a best guess from
your description) a leaking refrigeration (leak) system loosing refrigerant,
or a compressor that has lost the ability to pump (broken suction valves.)
I am guessing you're changing your filters regularly. But I'd need more
information to really tell. (Also, you could have a breach (opening) in the
return duct causing the air handler (furnace) to be drawing in hot attic
air, which would hit performance dramatically.)

--
Zyp
"Brad C" wrote in message
...
I live in Smyrna, so I'm also getting the Atlanta summer.

The house was built in October 2002. It has ridge vents running the full
length of it. All ducts are insulated. There is
blown insulation in the attic. The return ducts are on the attic floor and
get some covering from the blown insulationas
well. The supply ducts are suspended overhead in the attic, so they only
have the standard insulation around the duct.

The high temp in the attic is definitely causing cooling loss during the
day, but the thing that concerns me is during
the morning, when I took the last set of measurements, the attic was only
74 degrees. The supply was 64 and the return
was 69, so the unit was dropping the temp 5 degrees with an attic temp of
74. When the attic temp was 110, it was
dropping the temp 7-8 degrees. This would seem to indicate that the unit
can't cool air beyond 64 degrees. That seems
like a problem attributed to something other than cooling loss thru the
ducts since the unit on the 1st floor drops it
17 degrees under pretty much the same conditions. The difference between
the two units is upstairs is 2.5 ton and
downstairs is a 3 ton. That shouldn't cause the problem I'm seeing.

I didn't have this problem last summer. I have programmable thermostats
set to the same schedule as last year. My power
usage this year for May increased 76%, June was 78%, July was 21%, August
was 21%. July and August didn't increase as
much as May and June, but that is because the AC is running a lot during
those last 2 summer months anyway, so there
wasn't really much more it could run. We started using the AC in mid April
of this year. It's usage was 16% higher. The
months where we used heat only had an increase in usage of only 1%~2%. AC
is running a lot more this year, and the
summer this year isn't really hotter than last year's.

The easiest thing to quantify out of all these numbers is that I know the
upstairs runs a lot more. The fact that it
only drops the temp from 5-8 degrees upstars between return and supply is
proof.

"Joe Fabeitz" wrote in message
...
Are the ducts in the attic insulated? How well? Two years ago I bought
a
similar house (twenty years old) and immediately replaced both HVAC
systems
and all of the attic duct work. Although the new systems kept up with
Atlanta summers, I chose to also add "radiant" insulation to the attic.
The
result is the attic temp. is never more than 12 degrees hotter that the
outside temp. Something to consider.

"Brad C" wrote in message
...
I have a 2 story home with basement and my 2nd floor is not cooling
like
it did last summer. This summer isn't really
any hotter than last year, but my 2nd floor unit runs a lot during the
day, and the thermostats are set to the same
values as last summer.

I have a few thermostats/hygrometers I use around the house and taped
them
to the return/supplies in the master bedroom
to check the temp difference. When the attic was around 110 on a hot
day,
the supply was blowing in air at 68-69 and the
return was taking in air at 77. I had a technician come out to inspect
and
he said the 8-9 degree difference was due to
the heat loss in the runs in the attic. He quoted some degree per foot
run
loss, but I don't fully buy it. He also said
they shoot for a 10-12 degree diff for 2nd floors and 15-17 diff for
1st
floors.

Today, I measured the temp diff around 8am when the attic temp was 74.
Supply was 64, return was 69. I have a 2.5 ton
unit for the 2nd floor. I had let the unit run for a half hour to make
sure the air was at its coolest.
For the downstairs, I had 57 from the supply, with 73 going in the
return.
The basement temp was 75, so the ducts for
the 1st floor, which are in the basement, were roughly experiencing
the
same amount of heat loss as those in the attic
( attic was at 74 ). The 1st floor unit is a 3 ton.

The house is almost 2 years old. The company that did the install
performed a flush/recharge on both units for free
since I'm still under warranty, and that didn't help.

So, I experienced a 5 degree diff when the attic temp was at 74. The
system was charged to the recommended level. The
technician came out 3 days after he flushed/recharged and checked the
system again.

The airflow seems to be fine. Any thoughts ?

There is no refrigerant leak. They did perform a flush/recharge of the refrigerant because the pressure was fluctuating
from 55 - 70. After the flush/recharge, they added a little more refrigerant to get it to the optimal pressure.
Fortunately, they are doing all this under warranty. They checked the compressor and said there was nothing wrong.

I just checked the returns for leaks and couldn't detect anything. If there were leaks, that wouldn't explain why the
unit doesn't cool the air more in the early morning when the attic is between 70 and 73 degrees. As you said, it would
have a major effect when the attic is hot during the day.

I change the filters regularly. Downstairs is changed every 2 months, upstairs every 3-4 months. I've never pulled a
dirty filter out at those intervals, they are slightly discolored. I check them every month, and they never need to be
changed that often. If there was a leak in the return, I would probably need to change them more often, you agree ?



"Zypher" wrote in message link.net...
Brad;

It seems to me, the upstairs unit is not performing well. You should expect
approximately 15º - 20º temperature difference between return temperature &
supply temperature (similar to what you're finding for the downstairs unit.)
Albeit the attic ducts do add some heat, the insulation commonly has a
rating of R-4.2 per foot and adds some degree of temperature (or loss) to
the air, but shouldn't influence the performance. The contractor should
have taken all of that in to account when the system was designed.

Bottom line, you might have either one of two problems, (a best guess from
your description) a leaking refrigeration (leak) system loosing refrigerant,
or a compressor that has lost the ability to pump (broken suction valves.)
I am guessing you're changing your filters regularly. But I'd need more
information to really tell. (Also, you could have a breach (opening) in the
return duct causing the air handler (furnace) to be drawing in hot attic
air, which would hit performance dramatically.)

--
Zyp
"Brad C" wrote in message
...
I live in Smyrna, so I'm also getting the Atlanta summer.

The house was built in October 2002. It has ridge vents running the full
length of it. All ducts are insulated. There is
blown insulation in the attic. The return ducts are on the attic floor and
get some covering from the blown insulationas
well. The supply ducts are suspended overhead in the attic, so they only
have the standard insulation around the duct.

The high temp in the attic is definitely causing cooling loss during the
day, but the thing that concerns me is during
the morning, when I took the last set of measurements, the attic was only
74 degrees. The supply was 64 and the return
was 69, so the unit was dropping the temp 5 degrees with an attic temp of
74. When the attic temp was 110, it was
dropping the temp 7-8 degrees. This would seem to indicate that the unit
can't cool air beyond 64 degrees. That seems
like a problem attributed to something other than cooling loss thru the
ducts since the unit on the 1st floor drops it
17 degrees under pretty much the same conditions. The difference between
the two units is upstairs is 2.5 ton and
downstairs is a 3 ton. That shouldn't cause the problem I'm seeing.

I didn't have this problem last summer. I have programmable thermostats
set to the same schedule as last year. My power
usage this year for May increased 76%, June was 78%, July was 21%, August
was 21%. July and August didn't increase as
much as May and June, but that is because the AC is running a lot during
those last 2 summer months anyway, so there
wasn't really much more it could run. We started using the AC in mid April
of this year. It's usage was 16% higher. The
months where we used heat only had an increase in usage of only 1%~2%. AC
is running a lot more this year, and the
summer this year isn't really hotter than last year's.

The easiest thing to quantify out of all these numbers is that I know the
upstairs runs a lot more. The fact that it
only drops the temp from 5-8 degrees upstars between return and supply is
proof.

"Joe Fabeitz" wrote in message
...
Are the ducts in the attic insulated? How well? Two years ago I bought
a
similar house (twenty years old) and immediately replaced both HVAC
systems
and all of the attic duct work. Although the new systems kept up with
Atlanta summers, I chose to also add "radiant" insulation to the attic.
The
result is the attic temp. is never more than 12 degrees hotter that the
outside temp. Something to consider.

"Brad C" wrote in message
...
I have a 2 story home with basement and my 2nd floor is not cooling
like
it did last summer. This summer isn't really
any hotter than last year, but my 2nd floor unit runs a lot during the
day, and the thermostats are set to the same
values as last summer.

I have a few thermostats/hygrometers I use around the house and taped
them
to the return/supplies in the master bedroom
to check the temp difference. When the attic was around 110 on a hot
day,
the supply was blowing in air at 68-69 and the
return was taking in air at 77. I had a technician come out to inspect
and
he said the 8-9 degree difference was due to
the heat loss in the runs in the attic. He quoted some degree per foot
run
loss, but I don't fully buy it. He also said
they shoot for a 10-12 degree diff for 2nd floors and 15-17 diff for
1st
floors.

Today, I measured the temp diff around 8am when the attic temp was 74.
Supply was 64, return was 69. I have a 2.5 ton
unit for the 2nd floor. I had let the unit run for a half hour to make
sure the air was at its coolest.
For the downstairs, I had 57 from the supply, with 73 going in the
return.
The basement temp was 75, so the ducts for
the 1st floor, which are in the basement, were roughly experiencing
the
same amount of heat loss as those in the attic
( attic was at 74 ). The 1st floor unit is a 3 ton.

The house is almost 2 years old. The company that did the install
performed a flush/recharge on both units for free
since I'm still under warranty, and that didn't help.

So, I experienced a 5 degree diff when the attic temp was at 74. The
system was charged to the recommended level. The
technician came out 3 days after he flushed/recharged and checked the
system again.

The airflow seems to be fine. Any thoughts ?

"Brad C" wrote in message
...
There is no refrigerant leak. They did perform a flush/recharge of the
refrigerant because the pressure was fluctuating
from 55 - 70. After the flush/recharge, they added a little more
refrigerant to get it to the optimal pressure.

A flush/recharge? sounds like the installers didn't do the job right to
start with. If the pressures were flucuating, that usually means you had
non-condensibles in the system. Did the evacuate the system after recovery
and installation if a filter/dryer in the refrigerant lines?


Fortunately, they are doing all this under warranty. They checked the
compressor and said there was nothing wrong.

I just checked the returns for leaks and couldn't detect anything. If
there were leaks, that wouldn't explain why the
unit doesn't cool the air more in the early morning when the attic is
between 70 and 73 degrees. As you said, it would
have a major effect when the attic is hot during the day.

I change the filters regularly. Downstairs is changed every 2 months,
upstairs every 3-4 months. I've never pulled a
dirty filter out at those intervals, they are slightly discolored. I check
them every month, and they never need to be
changed that often. If there was a leak in the return, I would probably
need to change them more often, you agree ?

What kind of filters are you using? Has the company checked blower speeds
and how clean the blower wheel/evap coil is?

Brad C wrote:

snip

The high temp in the attic is definitely causing cooling loss during the day, but the thing that concerns me is during
the morning, when I took the last set of measurements, the attic was only 74 degrees. The supply was 64 and the return
was 69, so the unit was dropping the temp 5 degrees with an attic temp of 74. When the attic temp was 110, it was
dropping the temp 7-8 degrees. This would seem to indicate that the unit can't cool air beyond 64 degrees. That seems
like a problem attributed to something other than cooling loss thru the ducts since the unit on the 1st floor drops it
17 degrees under pretty much the same conditions. The difference between the two units is upstairs is 2.5 ton and
downstairs is a 3 ton. That shouldn't cause the problem I'm seeing.

snip

I don't know if this is your problem or not, but you are forgetting a
major part of your equation. The condenser. If the condenser cannot
remove the heat that's being removed from the house, the system will not
work as efficiently. What shape is this particular condenser in?
--Mike

I don't know if this is your problem or not, but you are forgetting a
major part of your equation. The condenser. If the condenser cannot
remove the heat that's being removed from the house, the system will not
work as efficiently. What shape is this particular condenser in?
--Mike


The condenser fins are slightly damaged on both units from a hailstorm. This happened before last summer, so the units
performed fine last summer with the damage. Both condensers are clean as far as I can tell from the outside.