On 10/26/2017 2:41 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2017 19:30:40 +0100, ted wrote:

On 10/26/2017 01:16 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
And I've told you already WE DON'T USE HEAT PUMPS.

.

Are you idiots?

Resistive heat yields 3412 BTU per kWh

Today's heat pumps yield 10000 to 13000 BTU per kWh

And my gas is 4.6 times cheaper than my electricity.* Your best figures there are 3.8 times cheaper than resistive.


In the past, the Luddites here argued that LED light bulbs would never replace incandescents...yet here we are 4 years later all happy with our energy saving LEDs.* I suspect solar energy is currently in the same transition.* Don't be a Luddite!

On 2017-10-26, Ed wrote:
In the past, the Luddites here argued that LED light bulbs would never
replace incandescents...yet here we are 4 years later all happy with
our energy saving LEDs.Â* I suspect solar energy is currently in the
same transition.Â* Don't be a Luddite!

Speak for yourself. I'm sticking with incandescent lighting and have
no intention of ever installing solar panels.

--
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On Thu, 26 Oct 2017 14:39:11 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

Where is the cite for that claim? One typical size panel puts out
about 250 watts in full sun. Derate that by 60% and you still
have 100 watts. A hundred watts for 10 hours a day over 20 years
is a hell of a lot of energy.

I am in Florida where the sun actually shines and the solar contractor
told me not to count on more that the equivalent of 6 hours a day at
the rated capacity. They also degrade a few percent a year ... and
this was the guy trying to sell them to me.

The fact is, without a hefty subsidy from the government, the numbers
just do not work out. When Florida's money ran out, so did my
interest.

On Thursday, October 26, 2017 at 7:23:33 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2017 14:39:11 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

Where is the cite for that claim? One typical size panel puts out
about 250 watts in full sun. Derate that by 60% and you still
have 100 watts. A hundred watts for 10 hours a day over 20 years
is a hell of a lot of energy.

I am in Florida where the sun actually shines and the solar contractor
told me not to count on more that the equivalent of 6 hours a day at
the rated capacity. They also degrade a few percent a year ... and
this was the guy trying to sell them to me.

The fact is, without a hefty subsidy from the government, the numbers
just do not work out. When Florida's money ran out, so did my
interest.

Rated capacity for 6 hours a day would be even higher than my winging
it estimate. I said 250 x 40% x 10 hours a day = 1000 watt hours

or 250 x 6 hours = 1500 watt hours

It's still a lot of energy and I don't believe there is any way that
after not many years you'd get back the energy it took to make them.
Maybe Mr. T will provide us the source that shows otherwise, but I'm
not holding my breath. I agree that they are not economically viable
without subsidies, but that's a different story.

On Thu, 26 Oct 2017 17:16:33 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, October 26, 2017 at 7:23:33 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2017 14:39:11 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

Where is the cite for that claim? One typical size panel puts out
about 250 watts in full sun. Derate that by 60% and you still
have 100 watts. A hundred watts for 10 hours a day over 20 years
is a hell of a lot of energy.

I am in Florida where the sun actually shines and the solar contractor
told me not to count on more that the equivalent of 6 hours a day at
the rated capacity. They also degrade a few percent a year ... and
this was the guy trying to sell them to me.

The fact is, without a hefty subsidy from the government, the numbers
just do not work out. When Florida's money ran out, so did my
interest.

Rated capacity for 6 hours a day would be even higher than my winging
it estimate. I said 250 x 40% x 10 hours a day = 1000 watt hours

or 250 x 6 hours = 1500 watt hours

It's still a lot of energy and I don't believe there is any way that
after not many years you'd get back the energy it took to make them.
Maybe Mr. T will provide us the source that shows otherwise, but I'm
not holding my breath. I agree that they are not economically viable
without subsidies, but that's a different story.

I always said that at a buck a watt it would be a thing. Now you can
get collectors for that or pretty close, then the government here
raised their ugly head and said you could not install them yourself
and still use a grid tie.
They also said collectors must meet the 160 MPH wind code, which puts
those buck a watt collectors off the table and made the installation
hardware much more expensive.
My other problem is, I do not really have a good place to put them
without cutting down someone else's trees.

On 10/26/2017 3:58 PM, Ed wrote:
On 10/26/2017 2:41 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2017 19:30:40 +0100, ted wrote:

On 10/26/2017 01:16 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
And I've told you already WE DON'T USE HEAT PUMPS.

.

Are you idiots?

Resistive heat yields 3412 BTU per kWh

Today's heat pumps yield 10000 to 13000 BTU per kWh

And my gas is 4.6 times cheaper than my electricity. Your best
figures there are 3.8 times cheaper than resistive.


In the past, the Luddites here argued that LED light bulbs would never
replace incandescents...yet here we are 4 years later all happy with our
energy saving LEDs. I suspect solar energy is currently in the same
transition. Don't be a Luddite!

LED lights are conservation without sacrifice.
The tipping point is when cost of ownership of a
solar(putyourfavoritedevicehere) approximates the cost of
not owning a solar(...).
You can install one for a buck. The cost reduction was from innovation
and scale.
Sunlight doesn't scale. What you get is all you're ever gonna get.
You can't do anything about 'night' or weather.

The unsolved issue with solar and many other renewables is STORAGE.
Fix that and they will come...

On 10/26/2017 08:35 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
Yes, those wonderful LEDs that keep overheating and failing.

I've not had a single LED bulb fail yet.

On Fri, 27 Oct 2017 01:44:32 +0100, Birdbrain Macaw (now "James Wilkinson"),
the pathological attention whore of all the uk ngs, blathered again:

Heat pumps are most common with people who need air conditioning in
the summer. It is a small up charge to add the reversing valve.
If you are using ground source pumps, that also makes sense in you
need to use electricity but I agree, for pure heat, you can't beat
piped gas if it is available.

Which makes the solar panels on the windows worthless.

What could be more worthless than a troll like you, Hucker!

--
Mr Pounder about Birdbrain:
"Do you lot realise that PHucker is one of the biggest ******s/trolls on
usenet? He is a **** poor delivery boy, lives in a stinking hovel with 9
cats, several parrots, no hot running water, no money, no woman, no future
and no hope.
Do you lot realise that he has successfully trolled all of you?"
MID:

On Fri, 27 Oct 2017 01:45:19 +0100, Birdbrain Macaw (now "James Wilkinson"),
the pathological attention whore of all the uk ngs, blathered again:

You were talking about pure theoreticals, new solar electric windows.
YOU claimed that solar electric can't be used efficiently to produce

I'm not going to answer anyone who feels the need to capitalise entire
words. Go be a journalist or something.

It's not only that your idiocy is getting exposed by everyone, but you ALSO
keep exposing your own idiocy YOURSELF, every single time, you idiotic
filthy troll!

--
More of Birdbrain Macaw's (now "James Wilkinson" LOL) endless BULL****:
"If you live for 4 years and die, you wasted 4 years. If you live for 20
years and die, you wasted 20 years, that's 5 times worse."
MID:

On Fri, 27 Oct 2017 01:35:12 +0100, Birdbrain Macaw (now "James Wilkinson"),
the pathological attention whore of all the uk ngs, blathered again:

On Thu, 26 Oct 2017 23:58:59 +0100, Ed wrote:

On 10/26/2017 2:41 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2017 19:30:40 +0100, ted wrote:

On 10/26/2017 01:16 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
And I've told you already WE DON'T USE HEAT PUMPS.

.

Are you idiots?

Resistive heat yields 3412 BTU per kWh

Today's heat pumps yield 10000 to 13000 BTU per kWh

And my gas is 4.6 times cheaper than my electricity. Your best figures there are 3.8 times cheaper than resistive.

In the past, the Luddites here argued that LED light bulbs would never replace incandescents...yet here we are 4 years later all happy with our energy saving LEDs. I suspect solar energy is currently in the same transition. Don't be a Luddite!

Yes, those wonderful LEDs that keep overheating and failing.

The cheapo ones that a dole and welfare whore like you can afford, yes,
Birdbrain!

--
More of Birdbrain Macaw's (now "James Wilkinson" LOL) usual sociopathic
bull****:
"Does your dog leave **** everywhere in your house because it hasn't wiped
it's arse? Do you allow it to urinate on people's walls and hedges like
most dog walkers?"
MID:

On Fri, 27 Oct 2017 01:37:25 +0100, Birdbrain Macaw (now "James Wilkinson"),
the pathological attention whore of all the uk ngs, blathered again:

Whoooooosh! Clearly thatPipistrel article flew right over your head. You
got no vision, boy!

Sorry, I'll get more zonked out on drugs before I consider renewable ****e again.

Why don't you just tell him the simple truth: that you are a sick
attention-starved idiot and sociopath! That's all any poster ever needs to
know about you!

--
More of Birdbrain Macaw's (now "James Wilkinson" LOL) endless idiotic
blather:
"My keyboard is a rectangle with rounded corners. My monitor is a rectangle
with rounded corners. Everyone's TV is a rectangle with rounded corners.
Everyone's phone is a rectangle with rounded corners."
MID:

On Friday, October 27, 2017 at 5:08:04 AM UTC-4, Wally wrote:
On 10/26/2017 08:35 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
Yes, those wonderful LEDs that keep overheating and failing.

I've not had a single LED bulb fail yet.

Same here. I have about 8 that are frequently used.

On 10/27/2017 6:53 AM, BurfordTJustice wrote:
"trader_4" wrote in message
...
: On Friday, October 27, 2017 at 5:08:04 AM UTC-4, Wally wrote:
: On 10/26/2017 08:35 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
: Yes, those wonderful LEDs that keep overheating and failing.
:
: I've not had a single LED bulb fail yet.
:
: Same here. I have about 8 that are frequently used.


and I have some old Incandescent Bulbs that are

still working fine after 25 years.



No LED can claim that.



Well duh! How long have residential lighting LEDs been available?

And how many actual run hours do you have on your 25 year old
incandescent bulb? Typically at their rated voltage they last about
1200 hours.

On Thursday, October 26, 2017 at 11:30:17 AM UTC-4, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2017 16:10:56 +0100, wrote:

On Thu, 26 Oct 2017 07:39:50 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, October 26, 2017 at 10:31:46 AM UTC-4, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2017 15:17:51 +0100, trader_4 wrote:


I guess you never heard of a heat pump.

I have, but I've never heard of one actually being used. I still doubt you'd make much saving once you factor in the cost of a heat pump and the special glass.

--

You need to get out more. Unless there is something very strange about
the UK, there would be lots of examples of heat pumps being used.
Perhaps some of your fellow citizens can inform you. And the cost of
the heat pump isn't really an issue, it would not be there only
because of solar generation, it's the heat source for the house.
Note, I already said I think the whole idea of solar electric generating
windows is a pipe dream, but that doesn't change the physics of a
heat pump and how it operates.

I imagine it is too cold and wet for a heat pump to work well. Temps
below 10c with high humidity would ice one up. Once you get below 4c
or 5c the efficiency really falls off and they have no real summer
that needs AC.

I do know of a farmer who uses them to heat his barns in winter (in England), but the source is underground, not outside.



So you were lying yesterday when you went on and on about how there
were no heat pumps in the UK, none, period.

On Thursday, October 26, 2017 at 8:35:18 PM UTC-4, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2017 23:58:59 +0100, Ed wrote:

On 10/26/2017 2:41 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2017 19:30:40 +0100, ted wrote:

On 10/26/2017 01:16 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
And I've told you already WE DON'T USE HEAT PUMPS.

.

Are you idiots?

Resistive heat yields 3412 BTU per kWh

Today's heat pumps yield 10000 to 13000 BTU per kWh

And my gas is 4.6 times cheaper than my electricity. Your best figures there are 3.8 times cheaper than resistive.

In the past, the Luddites here argued that LED light bulbs would never replace incandescents...yet here we are 4 years later all happy with our energy saving LEDs. I suspect solar energy is currently in the same transition. Don't be a Luddite!

Yes, those wonderful LEDs that keep overheating and failing.

However, at last they're cheap, use less electricity, and work (for a little while). Solar panels make enough power to recharge a golf cart. Unless you live on the equator, there simply is nowhere near enough power from the sun falling on your house to make the electricity you need.

--

That's wrong too. There are plenty of houses today that produce
as much electricity as they consume. It's not all that difficult.
A typical solar array is capable of 5KW. Most of the time the
house isn't using anywhere near that amount, so they are putting
substantial excess into the grid. Other times they draw from
the grid for a net that's zero or close to it.

On Fri, 27 Oct 2017 07:09:52 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, October 26, 2017 at 8:35:18 PM UTC-4, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2017 23:58:59 +0100, Ed wrote:

On 10/26/2017 2:41 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2017 19:30:40 +0100, ted wrote:

On 10/26/2017 01:16 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
And I've told you already WE DON'T USE HEAT PUMPS.

.

Are you idiots?

Resistive heat yields 3412 BTU per kWh

Today's heat pumps yield 10000 to 13000 BTU per kWh

And my gas is 4.6 times cheaper than my electricity. Your best figures there are 3.8 times cheaper than resistive.

In the past, the Luddites here argued that LED light bulbs would never replace incandescents...yet here we are 4 years later all happy with our energy saving LEDs. I suspect solar energy is currently in the same transition. Don't be a Luddite!

Yes, those wonderful LEDs that keep overheating and failing.

However, at last they're cheap, use less electricity, and work (for a little while). Solar panels make enough power to recharge a golf cart. Unless you live on the equator, there simply is nowhere near enough power from the sun falling on your house to make the electricity you need.

--

That's wrong too. There are plenty of houses today that produce
as much electricity as they consume. It's not all that difficult.
A typical solar array is capable of 5KW. Most of the time the
house isn't using anywhere near that amount, so they are putting
substantial excess into the grid. Other times they draw from
the grid for a net that's zero or close to it.

I was running my house on a 5,5 KW generator for a little over a week
after Irma. We were far from running normally (no dryer, no central AC
and no hot water) we already decided that 5kw number is only good for
6 hours a day. If I had gas appliances I agree 5kw might be fine when
the sun was shining if I didn't need AC but at night I would eat a lot
more than any excess I sold the grid.

On Friday, October 27, 2017 at 10:43:42 AM UTC-4, BurfordTJustice wrote:
Then why is your house not solar powered??



Because there is a difference between producing total
electricity equal to what you use and producing that electricity
so that it makes economic sense. And the necessary roof
planes are shaded.

On Fri, 27 Oct 2017 22:08:12 +0100, Birdbrain Macaw (now "James Wilkinson"),
the pathological attention whore of all the uk ngs, blathered again:

FLUSH sociopath's endless drivel unread

--
More of Birdbrain Macaw's (now "James Wilkinson" LOL) endless idiotic
blather:
"Some cyclists disguise themselves as car drivers. No wait, they're not
clever enough to do that."
MID:

On Fri, 27 Oct 2017 20:19:34 +0100, Birdbrain Macaw (now "James Wilkinson"),
the pathological attention whore of all the uk ngs, blathered again:

FLUSH yet more of the driveling idiot's inevitable idiotic drivel unread

--
Mr Pounder about Birdbrain:
"Do you lot realise that PHucker is one of the biggest ******s/trolls on
usenet? He is a **** poor delivery boy, lives in a stinking hovel with 9
cats, several parrots, no hot running water, no money, no woman, no future
and no hope.
Do you lot realise that he has successfully trolled all of you?"
MID:

On Fri, 27 Oct 2017 22:02:51 +0100, Birdbrain Macaw (now "James Wilkinson"
LOL), the Sociopathic Attention Whore Birdbrain Macaw (now "James
Wilkinson"),
the pathological attention whore of all the uk ngs, blathered again:


So you were lying yesterday when you went on and on about how there
were no heat pumps in the UK, none, period.

We were talking about domestic premises. And 1 of 30 million households
is as good as zero to anyone without OCD. Stop embarrassing yourself.

Actually, YOU did so very "successfully" in this thread, you filthy troll!

--
More of Birdbrain Macaw's (now "James Wilkinson" LOL) sociopathic BULL****:
"If someone walks out from behind a parked car without looking, they're at
fault, end of story. You may decide to be nice to them and stop, but you
don't have to."
MID:

On Friday, October 27, 2017 at 5:08:16 PM UTC-4, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 27 Oct 2017 11:30:03 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, October 27, 2017 at 5:08:04 AM UTC-4, Wally wrote:
On 10/26/2017 08:35 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
Yes, those wonderful LEDs that keep overheating and failing.

I've not had a single LED bulb fail yet.

Same here. I have about 8 that are frequently used.

There are two choices:
1) Buy them on Ebay, they overheat and last 3-6 months. Although you can get them replaced a few times if you moan about it.
2) Buy them from Asda, and nothing's more than about 40W equivalent.

I've found only one that actually lasts - LED striplights - they look similar to fluorescent tubes. Because the LEDs are spaced out, they can stay cool (about body temperature). These have lasted about 2-3 years and only about 15% of the individual LEDs have failed. Luckily they seem to fail short circuit, and the constant current power supply compensates.

I have had all LED lamps last a lot longer since I connected the lighting circuit to the output of my computer's UPS. LED bulbs just can't handle spikes/surges/overvoltage very well. My mains supply varies from 241V to 266V. The power company refuses to fix this. "It's within legal tolerances mate...."



Must really suck over there. Here in the USA we have a wide
range of all kinds of LEDs from new ceiling ones, to retrofit
for existing ceiling lights, to bulb replacement of the most
common bulbs. And they last fine, I haven't had one fail yet.