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#1
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Plat Coordinates "(Typical)"?
I am studying a surveyor's map of the neighborhood where I live. The map is on record at the County Clerk's and is known as "the Plat" for my neighborhood. For some of the patios, it notes coordinates for north (or south) and east (or west), relative to some point but clearly not latitude and longitude GPS coordinates. The Plat also gives dimensions of the patios, to the nearest tenth of a foot Written beneath the coordinate numbers is:
(typical) What does "(typical)" mean in the world of surveying and plats? |
#2
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Plat Coordinates "(Typical)"?
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#4
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Plat Coordinates "(Typical)"?
On Sunday, June 25, 2017 at 12:11:57 PM UTC-5, Taxed and Spent wrote:
Are the patios on lot lines? I doubt it. If not, this is the surveyor saying "I really don't care, since it is not defining a lot line". The neighborhood covenants and plat are both on file with the County. The patio areas are known as "limited common areas," with maintenance responsibility belonging to the homeowner. The land outside the patios is known as "common areas," and these are to be maintained by the neighborhood association. The Plat does show dimensions of each patio, to the nearest tenth of a foot.. There is no "(typical)" recorded under these dimensions. Several patios actual dimensions are much larger than what the Plat shows. Some disputes have arisen. This is because the Plats give one boundary but the reality on the ground is different. The association's general counsel has stated there are liability concerns. Like a slip and fall on a portion of one of the patios that per the plats, encroaches on common area. The attorney was emphatic that no homeowner's patio could be enlarged to encroach on the common area. This might be one of those splitting hair situations, but I am just not sure, especially after hearing from the attorney. Thank you, Taxed and Spent, trader_4, and gfre for your quick responses. |
#6
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Plat Coordinates "(Typical)"?
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#7
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Plat Coordinates "(Typical)"?
On Sunday, June 25, 2017 at 4:25:16 PM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 06/25/2017 2:13 PM, wrote: On Sunday, June 25, 2017 at 12:11:57 PM UTC-5, Taxed and Spent wrote: Are the patios on lot lines? I doubt it. If not, this is the surveyor saying "I really don't care, since it is not defining a lot line". ... The Plat does show dimensions of each patio, to the nearest tenth of a foot. There is no "(typical)" recorded under these dimensions. Several patios actual dimensions are much larger than what the Plat shows. So where, again, _is_ this "typical" notation if not on the aforesaid plat? He said its on the plat. Reading it again, it sounds like the "typical" applies to the offset for a patio relative to an unknown point. Simplest thing would be to go ask whoever drew it up. Some disputes have arisen. This is because the Plats give one boundary but the reality on the ground is different. The association's general counsel has stated there are liability concerns.Like a slip and fall on a portion of one of the patios that per the plats, encroaches on common area. The attorney was emphatic that no homeowner's patio could be enlarged to encroach on the common area. Liability for whom? I see none other than that of the single owner who broke the covenant and enlarged his patio -- unless, of course, the HOA approved such an action in contravention to the covenants; that could make those who participated in such parties. He cited a slip and fall, where who is responsible for the patio would be an issue. But practically, I don't see it as a problem either. The HOA should have insurance as should condo owners, if someone falls, let the two insurance companies resolve it. This might be one of those splitting hair situations, but I am just not sure, especially after hearing from the attorney. Well, when lawyers get involved and HOA associations with the likelihood of there being at least one litigious sort in the development, anything is possible. If yours is one outside the covenants, that's possibly a concern. If not, wouldn't sweat it. Then again, if you're not actually an owner (yet) and are researching on the basis of "what if?" and the unit in question is one of these it could come back to bite as above. As another already noted, avoiding those kinds of entanglements is, imo, "a good thing" as just general practice; there's bound to be somewhere else to live without such hassles. -- L |
#8
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Plat Coordinates "(Typical)"?
On Sun, 25 Jun 2017 15:54:29 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote: On Sunday, June 25, 2017 at 4:25:16 PM UTC-4, dpb wrote: On 06/25/2017 2:13 PM, wrote: On Sunday, June 25, 2017 at 12:11:57 PM UTC-5, Taxed and Spent wrote: Are the patios on lot lines? I doubt it. If not, this is the surveyor saying "I really don't care, since it is not defining a lot line". ... The Plat does show dimensions of each patio, to the nearest tenth of a foot. There is no "(typical)" recorded under these dimensions. Several patios actual dimensions are much larger than what the Plat shows. So where, again, _is_ this "typical" notation if not on the aforesaid plat? He said its on the plat. Reading it again, it sounds like the "typical" applies to the offset for a patio relative to an unknown point. Simplest thing would be to go ask whoever drew it up. I find it interesting that "improvements" even show on the plat filed with the county. They are usually submitted by the developer and do not change unless there is a total redevelopment of the property. The plats recorded for my neighborhood were filed in 1956, at least a year before there were actually any homes here. We still have some vacant lots. When lots have been joined, they just show as lot "X" and "Y" on the title with a single tax (strap) number, usually of the lower number lot. I don't think they would let you actually change lot corners, like making 3 lots into 2 without going through the whole development proce$$. |
#9
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Plat Coordinates "(Typical)"?
On 6/25/2017 3:54 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, June 25, 2017 at 4:25:16 PM UTC-4, dpb wrote: On 06/25/2017 2:13 PM, wrote: On Sunday, June 25, 2017 at 12:11:57 PM UTC-5, Taxed and Spent wrote: Are the patios on lot lines? I doubt it. If not, this is the surveyor saying "I really don't care, since it is not defining a lot line". ... The Plat does show dimensions of each patio, to the nearest tenth of a foot. There is no "(typical)" recorded under these dimensions. Several patios actual dimensions are much larger than what the Plat shows. So where, again, _is_ this "typical" notation if not on the aforesaid plat? He said its on the plat. Reading it again, it sounds like the "typical" applies to the offset for a patio relative to an unknown point. Simplest thing would be to go ask whoever drew it up. Some disputes have arisen. This is because the Plats give one boundary but the reality on the ground is different. The association's general counsel has stated there are liability concerns.Like a slip and fall on a portion of one of the patios that per the plats, encroaches on common area. The attorney was emphatic that no homeowner's patio could be enlarged to encroach on the common area. Liability for whom? I see none other than that of the single owner who broke the covenant and enlarged his patio -- unless, of course, the HOA approved such an action in contravention to the covenants; that could make those who participated in such parties. He cited a slip and fall, where who is responsible for the patio would be an issue. But practically, I don't see it as a problem either. The HOA should have insurance as should condo owners, if someone falls, let the two insurance companies resolve it. I see it as a problem. If I am a member of the HOA, I don't want my HOA fees going up due to increased insurance premiums because it is argued the extra large patio encroaching on the common area is the HOA responsibility. |
#11
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Plat Coordinates "(Typical)"?
On 06/25/2017 11:05 AM, wrote:
I am studying a surveyor's map of the neighborhood where I live. The map is on record at the County Clerk's and is known as "the Plat" for my neighborhood. For some of the patios, it notes coordinates for north (or south) and east (or west), relative to some point but clearly not latitude and longitude GPS coordinates. Where do you live? You may be looking at SPCS (State Plan Coordinate System) coordinates widely used in the US. http://gisgeography.com/state-plane-...e-system-spcs/ Probably more than you wanted to know. |
#12
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Plat Coordinates "(Typical)"?
On Sunday, June 25, 2017 at 3:08:46 PM UTC-5, rbowman wrote:
On 06/25/2017 11:05 AM, honda.lioness wrote: I am studying a surveyor's map of the neighborhood where I live. The map is on record at the County Clerk's and is known as "the Plat" for my neighborhood. For some of the patios, it notes coordinates for north (or south) and east (or west), relative to some point but clearly not latitude and longitude GPS coordinates. Where do you live? You may be looking at SPCS (State Plan Coordinate System) coordinates widely used in the US. http://gisgeography.com/state-plane-...e-system-spcs/ Excellent. NI think I understand much better. From the plat, here's a typical notation on what looks schematically like a patio border: N 88 degrees 15' 13" E (TYPICAL) 8.3 feet One boundary of this patio runs in the direction (line of sight) shown, for 8.3 feet. This direction is 76 degrees rotated East from North, or almost due East. The community has around 100 patios. The dimensions for the patios vary a lot. cl...@snyder: Yes, some owners have encroachments. Some may have been approved by the Declarant 17 years ago, or the subsequent board, consistent with the requirements of the governing documents. Someone complained about one of the seeming encroachments. The board is now stuck with checking about a half dozen patios that seem to be much larger than what the Plat says. All the patios have fences around them, so this is a boundary of sorts that makes measurement easy. dpb, no, I am not the perp here. I am on the board. Yes, condos have their problems. It is no fun, mostly, but I try to stay cheerful. Fortunately I have done this in the past. The only thing I care about is infrastructure maintenance and do not screw up the finances. If I were not feeling too old to be on the roof, I'd be in a small house. But I have good neighbors; it's economical by my calculations; it's safe. The Board has evolved (knock on wood). It's no longer "The HOA Hunger Games." It is "HOA Survivor." No one is getting harassed the way they were in the past. I do have the contact info for the surveyor from the Plat. They already answered one question and were great. Before I call again, let me seek one more opinion from readers here. Do people here think the "(TYPICAL)" refers to the 8.3 feet being an approximation? E.g. if I measured this owner's patio and found it was 8.9 feet, this is close enough to say it is consistent with the Plat. If I found it was 20 feet, then this could pose a legal threat in a slip and fall? All the responses have been helpful. Many thanks. I learned something. It is one of the few benefits of this volunteer gig now and then. |
#13
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Plat Coordinates "(Typical)"?
On Sun, 25 Jun 2017 16:48:09 -0700 (PDT),
wrote: On Sunday, June 25, 2017 at 3:08:46 PM UTC-5, rbowman wrote: On 06/25/2017 11:05 AM, honda.lioness wrote: I am studying a surveyor's map of the neighborhood where I live. The map is on record at the County Clerk's and is known as "the Plat" for my neighborhood. For some of the patios, it notes coordinates for north (or south) and east (or west), relative to some point but clearly not latitude and longitude GPS coordinates. Where do you live? You may be looking at SPCS (State Plan Coordinate System) coordinates widely used in the US. http://gisgeography.com/state-plane-...e-system-spcs/ Excellent. NI think I understand much better. From the plat, here's a typical notation on what looks schematically like a patio border: N 88 degrees 15' 13" E (TYPICAL) 8.3 feet One boundary of this patio runs in the direction (line of sight) shown, for 8.3 feet. This direction is 76 degrees rotated East from North, or almost due East. The community has around 100 patios. The dimensions for the patios vary a lot. cl...@snyder: Yes, some owners have encroachments. Some may have been approved by the Declarant 17 years ago, or the subsequent board, consistent with the requirements of the governing documents. Someone complained about one of the seeming encroachments. The board is now stuck with checking about a half dozen patios that seem to be much larger than what the Plat says. All the patios have fences around them, so this is a boundary of sorts that makes measurement easy. dpb, no, I am not the perp here. I am on the board. Yes, condos have their problems. It is no fun, mostly, but I try to stay cheerful. Fortunately I have done this in the past. The only thing I care about is infrastructure maintenance and do not screw up the finances. If I were not feeling too old to be on the roof, I'd be in a small house. But I have good neighbors; it's economical by my calculations; it's safe. The Board has evolved (knock on wood). It's no longer "The HOA Hunger Games." It is "HOA Survivor." No one is getting harassed the way they were in the past. I do have the contact info for the surveyor from the Plat. They already answered one question and were great. Before I call again, let me seek one more opinion from readers here. Do people here think the "(TYPICAL)" refers to the 8.3 feet being an approximation? E.g. if I measured this owner's patio and found it was 8.9 feet, this is close enough to say it is consistent with the Plat. If I found it was 20 feet, then this could pose a legal threat in a slip and fall? All the responses have been helpful. Many thanks. I learned something. It is one of the few benefits of this volunteer gig now and then. If it was in Ontario I'd ask my brother, a Condo specialist in a land survey practice for the details and ramifications. |
#14
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Plat Coordinates "(Typical)"?
On Sunday, June 25, 2017 at 3:08:46 PM UTC-5, rbowman wrote:
On 06/25/2017 11:05 AM, honda.lioness wrote: I am studying a surveyor's map of the neighborhood where I live. The map is on record at the County Clerk's and is known as "the Plat" for my neighborhood. For some of the patios, it notes coordinates for north (or south) and east (or west), relative to some point but clearly not latitude and longitude GPS coordinates. Where do you live? You may be looking at SPCS (State Plan Coordinate System) coordinates widely used in the US. http://gisgeography.com/state-plane-...e-system-spcs/ Excellent. NI think I understand much better. From the plat, here's a typical notation on what looks schematically like a patio border: N 88 degrees 15' 13" E (TYPICAL) 8.3 feet One boundary of this patio runs in the direction (line of sight) shown, for 8.3 feet. This direction is about 88 degrees rotating East from North, or almost due East. The community has around 100 patios. The dimensions for the patios vary a lot. cl...@snyder: Yes, some owners have encroachments. Some may have been approved by the Declarant 17 years ago, or the subsequent board, consistent with the requirements of the governing documents. Someone complained about one of the seeming encroachments. The board is now stuck with checking about a half dozen patios that seem to be much larger than what the Plat says. All the patios have fences around them, so this is a boundary of sorts that makes measurement easy. dpb, no, I am not the perp here. I am on the board. Yes, condos have their problems. It is no fun, mostly, but I try to stay cheerful. Fortunately I have done this in the past. The only thing I care about is infrastructure maintenance and do not screw up the finances. If I were not feeling too old to be on the roof, I'd be in a small house. But I have good neighbors; it's economical by my calculations; it's safe. The Board has evolved (knock on wood). It's no longer "The HOA Hunger Games." It is "HOA Survivor." No one is getting harassed the way they were in the past. I do have the contact info for the surveyor from the Plat. They already answered one question and were great. Before I call again, let me seek one more opinion from readers here. Do people here think the "(TYPICAL)" refers to the 8.3 feet being an approximation? E.g. if I measured this owner's patio and found it was 8.9 feet, this is close enough to say it is consistent with the Plat. If I found it was 20 feet, then this could pose a legal threat in a slip and fall? All the responses have been helpful. Many thanks. I learned something. It is one of the few benefits of this volunteer gig now and then. |
#15
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Plat Coordinates "(Typical)"?
On Sunday, June 25, 2017 at 7:50:05 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sunday, June 25, 2017 at 3:08:46 PM UTC-5, rbowman wrote: On 06/25/2017 11:05 AM, honda.lioness wrote: I am studying a surveyor's map of the neighborhood where I live. The map is on record at the County Clerk's and is known as "the Plat" for my neighborhood. For some of the patios, it notes coordinates for north (or south) and east (or west), relative to some point but clearly not latitude and longitude GPS coordinates. Where do you live? You may be looking at SPCS (State Plan Coordinate System) coordinates widely used in the US. http://gisgeography.com/state-plane-...e-system-spcs/ Excellent. NI think I understand much better. From the plat, here's a typical notation on what looks schematically like a patio border: N 88 degrees 15' 13" E (TYPICAL) 8.3 feet One boundary of this patio runs in the direction (line of sight) shown, for 8.3 feet. This direction is about 88 degrees rotating East from North, or almost due East. The community has around 100 patios. The dimensions for the patios vary a lot. cl...@snyder: Yes, some owners have encroachments. Some may have been approved by the Declarant 17 years ago, or the subsequent board, consistent with the requirements of the governing documents. Someone complained about one of the seeming encroachments. The board is now stuck with checking about a half dozen patios that seem to be much larger than what the Plat says. All the patios have fences around them, so this is a boundary of sorts that makes measurement easy. dpb, no, I am not the perp here. I am on the board. Yes, condos have their problems. It is no fun, mostly, but I try to stay cheerful. Fortunately I have done this in the past. The only thing I care about is infrastructure maintenance and do not screw up the finances. If I were not feeling too old to be on the roof, I'd be in a small house. But I have good neighbors; it's economical by my calculations; it's safe. The Board has evolved (knock on wood). It's no longer "The HOA Hunger Games." It is "HOA Survivor." No one is getting harassed the way they were in the past. I do have the contact info for the surveyor from the Plat. They already answered one question and were great. Before I call again, let me seek one more opinion from readers here. Do people here think the "(TYPICAL)" refers to the 8.3 feet being an approximation? E.g. if I measured this owner's patio and found it was 8.9 feet, this is close enough to say it is consistent with the Plat. If I found it was 20 feet, then this could pose a legal threat in a slip and fall? IDK, the typical is in the middle of it, so who knows. But I can tell you that IMO, the slip and fall is just a lawyer yapping away, blowing up something to create a lot of trouble. The HOA has insurance in case someone slips on the common areas, yes? If someone's patio extends 2 ft into the common area and someone slips and decides to go after the hoa because they manage to figure out the patio extends where it should not, the hoa insurance company will defend or pay the claim and if they think the condo owner should pay some or all of it, they will go after them and their insurance. If some of those patios greatly exceed what they should be and you can prove that they were done after original construction and the board wants to pursue it, that's another story. And probably plenty of money for that lawyer too. But the slip and fall stuff, call me very skeptical. All the responses have been helpful. Many thanks. I learned something. It is one of the few benefits of this volunteer gig now and then. |
#16
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Plat Coordinates "(Typical)"?
Here is the response from the surveyor:
The "(typical)" notation applies only to the lines-of-sight. By "(typical)" the surveyor is conveying that all wall lines and patio lines in and around the building comport with the given lines of sight. In other words, the plat shows a building, all the building's condo units, the units' patios, and two metes. The two metes are perpendicular to each other. The "(typical)" notation means the lines-of-sight apply to all the wall lines, and all the patio lines, in and around the building. The surveyor said the "(typical)" notation has absolutely nothing to do with the distances. |
#17
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Plat Coordinates "(Typical)"?
On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 11:42:49 AM UTC-4, wrote:
Here is the response from the surveyor: The "(typical)" notation applies only to the lines-of-sight. By "(typical)" the surveyor is conveying that all wall lines and patio lines in and around the building comport with the given lines of sight. In other words, the plat shows a building, all the building's condo units, the units' patios, and two metes. The two metes are perpendicular to each other. The "(typical)" notation means the lines-of-sight apply to all the wall lines, and all the patio lines, in and around the building. The surveyor said the "(typical)" notation has absolutely nothing to do with the distances. I'm still not sure what that means. What line of sight does it mean? Does it mean that they didn't survey the patios exact location, but they didn't notice that they were out of whack from where they are supposed to be based on sight? |
#18
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Plat Coordinates "(Typical)"?
On Sunday, June 25, 2017 at 9:30:18 PM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
IDK, the typical is in the middle of it, so who knows. But I can tell you that IMO, the slip and fall is just a lawyer yapping away, blowing up something to create a lot of trouble. The HOA has insurance in case someone slips on the common areas, yes? If someone's patio extends 2 ft into the common area and someone slips and decides to go after the hoa because they manage to figure out the patio extends where it should not, the hoa insurance company will defend or pay the claim and if they think the condo owner should pay some or all of it, they will go after them and their insurance. If some of those patios greatly exceed what they should be and you can prove that they were done after original construction and the board wants to pursue it, that's another story. And probably plenty of money for that lawyer too. But the slip and fall stuff, call me very skeptical. The HOA has insurance. Each condo unit is required to have insurance. Else I hear you. I should clarify that some of the board members started asking questions about certain patios and insisted the attorney be consulted. I am hopeful the HOA attorney will recognize naivete and busybody-ness when she sees it. So far the HOA attorney has not seemed to be looking to take advantage of the HOA. She has even said things like, "Sure, I could do this, but it will cost you a fortune. Send your own letter to the offending member, saying roughly this... " and so on. |
#19
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Plat Coordinates "(Typical)"?
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