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Grab Bars in a Shower Stall
I've been asked to help install grab bars in an (E) tiled shower stall.
What is the best way to do this? Ordinarily I'd drill a hole through the tile and whatever is behind it -mortar, greenwall, or backer board and install the grab bar with toggle bolts. I got to wondering though that if I drill a hole large enough for a toggle bolt to go through, I might be weakening the wall enough that holding onto the grab bar might pull some tiles loose, leading to additional work. Additionally, the house is an older one, having been built in late 50's or 60's so it's likely there is a mortar bed - it looks to be the original tile. If the mortar crumbles around the hole, the toggle bolt will be pulling on the tile, maybe. -- charles |
Grab Bars in a Shower Stall
On 11/24/2016 9:09 AM, Charles Bishop wrote:
I've been asked to help install grab bars in an (E) tiled shower stall. What is the best way to do this? Ordinarily I'd drill a hole through the tile and whatever is behind it -mortar, greenwall, or backer board and install the grab bar with toggle bolts. I got to wondering though that if I drill a hole large enough for a toggle bolt to go through, I might be weakening the wall enough that holding onto the grab bar might pull some tiles loose, leading to additional work. Additionally, the house is an older one, having been built in late 50's or 60's so it's likely there is a mortar bed - it looks to be the original tile. If the mortar crumbles around the hole, the toggle bolt will be pulling on the tile, maybe. Considering the construction, I'd try to avoid toggle bolts. Can you find a stud? Long screws in the stud is perfect. |
Grab Bars in a Shower Stall
On 11/24/2016 9:50 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 11/24/2016 9:09 AM, Charles Bishop wrote: I've been asked to help install grab bars in an (E) tiled shower stall. What is the best way to do this? Ordinarily I'd drill a hole through the tile and whatever is behind it -mortar, greenwall, or backer board and install the grab bar with toggle bolts. I got to wondering though that if I drill a hole large enough for a toggle bolt to go through, I might be weakening the wall enough that holding onto the grab bar might pull some tiles loose, leading to additional work. Additionally, the house is an older one, having been built in late 50's or 60's so it's likely there is a mortar bed - it looks to be the original tile. If the mortar crumbles around the hole, the toggle bolt will be pulling on the tile, maybe. Considering the construction, I'd try to avoid toggle bolts. Can you find a stud? Long screws in the stud is perfect. +1 When I remodeled our bath, I looked to the future and installed a grab bar in the tub as the jetted tub I installed was deeper than the norm. Placed it so that one end is into a stud and since I didn't like the angle formed when attaching the other end to a stud, I inlet a couple of studs to accept a 1x6 that was firmly screwed into said studs and gave me all the mounting options I needed for the grab bar. Since you're not, apparently, retiling, etc. I concur with Ed's suggestion that you seek a stud and, all things considered, if you can only anchor to one stud, make sure you use a stud on the upper end of that bar. That's going to take the most stress. The lower one less so. |
Grab Bars in a Shower Stall
On Thu, 24 Nov 2016 07:09:09 -0700, Charles Bishop wrote:
I've been asked to help install grab bars in an (E) tiled shower stall. What is the best way to do this? Ordinarily I'd drill a hole through the tile and whatever is behind it -mortar, greenwall, or backer board and install the grab bar with toggle bolts. I got to wondering though that if I drill a hole large enough for a toggle bolt to go through, I might be weakening the wall enough that holding onto the grab bar might pull some tiles loose, leading to additional work. Additionally, the house is an older one, having been built in late 50's or 60's so it's likely there is a mortar bed - it looks to be the original tile. If the mortar crumbles around the hole, the toggle bolt will be pulling on the tile, maybe. Is the wall constructed in such a fashion as to allow you to locate the studs? For example, is there drywall or plaster above the tile? If so, do not use toggle bolts, drill small holes through the tile and use stainless or some other protected screws to attach directly to the studs. |
Grab Bars in a Shower Stall
In ,
Stormin' Norman typed: On Thu, 24 Nov 2016 07:09:09 -0700, Charles Bishop wrote: I've been asked to help install grab bars in an (E) tiled shower stall. What is the best way to do this? Ordinarily I'd drill a hole through the tile and whatever is behind it -mortar, greenwall, or backer board and install the grab bar with toggle bolts. I got to wondering though that if I drill a hole large enough for a toggle bolt to go through, I might be weakening the wall enough that holding onto the grab bar might pull some tiles loose, leading to additional work. Additionally, the house is an older one, having been built in late 50's or 60's so it's likely there is a mortar bed - it looks to be the original tile. If the mortar crumbles around the hole, the toggle bolt will be pulling on the tile, maybe. Is the wall constructed in such a fashion as to allow you to locate the studs? For example, is there drywall or plaster above the tile? If so, do not use toggle bolts, drill small holes through the tile and use stainless or some other protected screws to attach directly to the studs. I agree. I would look above the top of the tile wall to try to locate studs. Also, check out the many videos that are available at http://YouTube.com . I went there and I did a search for "grab bars for shower" and I found plenty of excellent videos. One that I thought was interesting (although I don't know if I would use that product) was: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKpXa4elASM |
Grab Bars in a Shower Stall
On Thu, 24 Nov 2016 10:50:19 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 11/24/2016 9:09 AM, Charles Bishop wrote: I've been asked to help install grab bars in an (E) tiled shower stall. What is the best way to do this? Ordinarily I'd drill a hole through the tile and whatever is behind it -mortar, greenwall, or backer board and install the grab bar with toggle bolts. I got to wondering though that if I drill a hole large enough for a toggle bolt to go through, I might be weakening the wall enough that holding onto the grab bar might pull some tiles loose, leading to additional work. Additionally, the house is an older one, having been built in late 50's or 60's so it's likely there is a mortar bed - it looks to be the original tile. If the mortar crumbles around the hole, the toggle bolt will be pulling on the tile, maybe. Considering the construction, I'd try to avoid toggle bolts. Can you find a stud? Long screws in the stud is perfect. +1 If the tile doesn't go all the way up to the ceiling, find the studs above the tile. Then use a string and a plumb-bob to assist finding the studs behind the tile. |
Grab Bars in a Shower Stall
On Thursday, November 24, 2016 at 10:39:51 AM UTC-6, TomR wrote:
Check out the many videos that are available at http://YouTube.com . I went there and I did a search for "grab bars for shower" and I found plenty of excellent videos. One that I thought was interesting (although I don't know if I would use that product) was: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKpXa4elASM That was an interesting video but I agree with you Tom. I don't know that I would use that product or not even though the guy did hang from it once installed. He used a small block of wood mounted behind drywall to anchor his screws. What's to keep that drywall from giving away even though it does have that small block of wood behind it? |
Grab Bars in a Shower Stall
On Thursday, November 24, 2016 at 9:09:14 AM UTC-6, Charles Bishop wrote:
I've been asked to help install grab bars in an (E) tiled shower stall. What is the best way to do this? Ordinarily I'd drill a hole through the tile and whatever is behind it -mortar, greenwall, or backer board and install the grab bar with toggle bolts. I got to wondering though that if I drill a hole large enough for a toggle bolt to go through, I might be weakening the wall enough that holding onto the grab bar might pull some tiles loose, leading to additional work. Additionally, the house is an older one, having been built in late 50's or 60's so it's likely there is a mortar bed - it looks to be the original tile. If the mortar crumbles around the hole, the toggle bolt will be pulling on the tile, maybe. -- charles When I had to attach something heavy to a wall in a commercial kitchen and I wasn't sure about what was behind it or I couldn't locate it where there were studs, I would visit my pal at a sheet metal shop and get one foot square stainless steel pieces that were at least 1/8" thick and drill multiple holes so I could install a lot of anchors in the wall surface. I would then attach the heavy item to the sheet metal. I've done the same thing with hand rails and grab bars. Spread the load. ヽ(ヅ)ノ [8~{} Uncle Grabby Monster |
Grab Bars in a Shower Stall
On 11/24/2016 9:09 AM, Charles Bishop wrote:
I've been asked to help install grab bars in an (E) tiled shower stall. What is the best way to do this? Ordinarily I'd drill a hole through the tile and whatever is behind it -mortar, greenwall, or backer board and install the grab bar with toggle bolts. I got to wondering though that if I drill a hole large enough for a toggle bolt to go through, I might be weakening the wall enough that holding onto the grab bar might pull some tiles loose, leading to additional work. Additionally, the house is an older one, having been built in late 50's or 60's so it's likely there is a mortar bed - it looks to be the original tile. If the mortar crumbles around the hole, the toggle bolt will be pulling on the tile, maybe. I have a couple of those suction cup grab bars. You need large tiles for them. Mentioned here a couple of months ago and others thought they would not be sturdy but I have not seen a problem with them. I would not put full weight on them but there are a lot of things I would not put full weight on. My first shower was not done right as it was on plain wall board and a cup might have pulled a tile off. Some builders are chincy and do this. |
Grab Bars in a Shower Stall
On Thu, 24 Nov 2016 12:05:55 -0500, Frank "frank wrote:
On 11/24/2016 9:09 AM, Charles Bishop wrote: I've been asked to help install grab bars in an (E) tiled shower stall. What is the best way to do this? Ordinarily I'd drill a hole through the tile and whatever is behind it -mortar, greenwall, or backer board and install the grab bar with toggle bolts. I got to wondering though that if I drill a hole large enough for a toggle bolt to go through, I might be weakening the wall enough that holding onto the grab bar might pull some tiles loose, leading to additional work. Additionally, the house is an older one, having been built in late 50's or 60's so it's likely there is a mortar bed - it looks to be the original tile. If the mortar crumbles around the hole, the toggle bolt will be pulling on the tile, maybe. I have a couple of those suction cup grab bars. You need large tiles for them. Mentioned here a couple of months ago and others thought they would not be sturdy but I have not seen a problem with them. I would not put full weight on them but there are a lot of things I would not put full weight on. My first shower was not done right as it was on plain wall board and a cup might have pulled a tile off. Some builders are chincy and do this. Unfortunately, if we old folks lose our balance, we instinctively reach out for the grab bars. When we need them most is when we are possibly exerting a great deal of force. I am over 6'7" and still weigh 262lbs, that represents a lot of energy being transferred, in a short period of time, to the grab bars. I have stainless bars in my large, walk-in, unenclosed shower and have really needed them three times. I was quite grateful they were firmly attached. One time my wife said she felt the wall of the house shudder when I slipped. |
Grab Bars in a Shower Stall
In ,
typed: On Thursday, November 24, 2016 at 10:39:51 AM UTC-6, TomR wrote: Check out the many videos that are available at http://YouTube.com . I went there and I did a search for "grab bars for shower" and I found plenty of excellent videos. One that I thought was interesting (although I don't know if I would use that product) was: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKpXa4elASM That was an interesting video but I agree with you Tom. I don't know that I would use that product or not even though the guy did hang from it once installed. He used a small block of wood mounted behind drywall to anchor his screws. What's to keep that drywall from giving away even though it does have that small block of wood behind it? Yes, it didn't seem like a great idea to me. I have used a similar concept when patching drywall (piece of wood behind a small drywall hole, held in place with string until the patch is done). But, for a strength item like a grab bar, it seems like it would be a large enough piece behind the tile wall to make it worth using. And, if I were going to that concept, and I really wanted a strong support "stud" behind the hollow wall in a location where none existed, I would create one on my own -- by opening up the wall above the top of the tile, dropping down a longer and larger 2x4 piece (turned sideways), and screw the grab bar into that at the right locations. Then, patch the wall above the top of the tile. |
Grab Bars in a Shower Stall
In ,
TomR typed: In , typed: On Thursday, November 24, 2016 at 10:39:51 AM UTC-6, TomR wrote: Check out the many videos that are available at http://YouTube.com . I went there and I did a search for "grab bars for shower" and I found plenty of excellent videos. One that I thought was interesting (although I don't know if I would use that product) was: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKpXa4elASM That was an interesting video but I agree with you Tom. I don't know that I would use that product or not even though the guy did hang from it once installed. He used a small block of wood mounted behind drywall to anchor his screws. What's to keep that drywall from giving away even though it does have that small block of wood behind it? Yes, it didn't seem like a great idea to me. I have used a similar concept when patching drywall (piece of wood behind a small drywall hole, held in place with string until the patch is done). But, for a strength item like a grab bar, it seems like it would be a large enough piece behind the tile wall to make it worth using. And, if I were going to that concept, and I really wanted a strong support "stud" behind the hollow wall in a location where none existed, I would create one on my own -- by opening up the wall above the top of the tile, dropping down a longer and larger 2x4 piece (turned sideways), and screw the grab bar into that at the right locations. Then, patch the wall above the top of the tile. Oops, I meant to write, "...it seems like it would *NOT* be a large enough piece...". |
Grab Bars in a Shower Stall
TomR wrote:
In , Stormin' Norman typed: On Thu, 24 Nov 2016 07:09:09 -0700, Charles Bishop wrote: I've been asked to help install grab bars in an (E) tiled shower stall. What is the best way to do this? Ordinarily I'd drill a hole through the tile and whatever is behind it -mortar, greenwall, or backer board and install the grab bar with toggle bolts. I got to wondering though that if I drill a hole large enough for a toggle bolt to go through, I might be weakening the wall enough that holding onto the grab bar might pull some tiles loose, leading to additional work. Additionally, the house is an older one, having been built in late 50's or 60's so it's likely there is a mortar bed - it looks to be the original tile. If the mortar crumbles around the hole, the toggle bolt will be pulling on the tile, maybe. Is the wall constructed in such a fashion as to allow you to locate the studs? For example, is there drywall or plaster above the tile? If so, do not use toggle bolts, drill small holes through the tile and use stainless or some other protected screws to attach directly to the studs. I agree. I would look above the top of the tile wall to try to locate studs. Also, check out the many videos that are available at http://YouTube.com . I went there and I did a search for "grab bars for shower" and I found plenty of excellent videos. One that I thought was interesting (although I don't know if I would use that product) was: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKpXa4elASM Here is another video using a Moen grab bar that does not require you to fasten to a stud. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzwgnBckzsY |
Grab Bars in a Shower Stall
Hi Charles,
I've been asked to help install grab bars in an (E) tiled shower stall. What's the best way to do this? Ordinarily I'd drill a hole through the tile and whatever is behind it -mortar, greenwall, or backer board and install the grab bar with toggle bolts. I got to wondering though that if I drill a hole large enough for a toggle bolt to go through, I might be weakening the wall enough that holding onto the grab bar might pull some tiles loose, leading to additional work. Additionally, the house is an older one, having been built in late 50's or 60's so it's likely there is a mortar bed - it looks to be the original tile. If the mortar crumbles around the hole, the toggle bolt will be pulling on the tile, maybe. Ideally, you should screw the grab bar directly to the studs, or to blocking installed behind the wall. Of course, there is rarely blocking available unless someone planned ahead. Also, even if you find a stud for one end, the other end probably won't line up with the next stud. I recently installed a grab bar at my mother-in-law's house. I located one end over a stud and drove screws directly into the stud. The other end landed between studs, so I used the anchor system designed by the manufacturer for this situation: https://www.amazon.com/Moen-SMA1005CH-Home-Securemount- Chrome/dp/B004Q02FX0/ref=sr_1_2 I'm not sure how the dedicated anchor compares to a standard toggle bolt. It cost more and required a much larger hole (1-1/4" if I remember correctly), but it did provide a very secure mount for the grab bar. In my case, I was drilling into drywall, so it wasn't a big problem. Drilling a 1-1/4" hole in tile could take a bit more work, but it's doable. If you have access to the other side of the wall, one other option might be to cut a hole and install blocking from the back side. Then patch the hole on the back side when you're done. That's probably more trouble than it's worth, but it would be secure if you're concerned about the strength of the existing tile wall. Anthony Watson www.watsondiy.com www.mountainsoftware.com |
Grab Bars in a Shower Stall
On Thu, 24 Nov 2016 07:09:09 -0700, Charles Bishop
wrote: I've been asked to help install grab bars in an (E) tiled shower stall. What is the best way to do this? Ordinarily I'd drill a hole through the tile and whatever is behind it -mortar, greenwall, or backer board and install the grab bar with toggle bolts. I got to wondering though that if I drill a hole large enough for a toggle bolt to go through, I might be weakening the wall enough that holding onto the grab bar might pull some tiles loose, leading to additional work. Additionally, the house is an older one, having been built in late 50's or 60's so it's likely there is a mortar bed - it looks to be the original tile. If the mortar crumbles around the hole, the toggle bolt will be pulling on the tile, maybe. Do NOT use toggle bolts on a tiled shower. Find the studs and screw/lag them directly to the studs. Anything else is not only asking, but BEGGING for trouble. |
Grab Bars in a Shower Stall
On Thu, 24 Nov 2016 08:42:52 -0800, Oren wrote:
On Thu, 24 Nov 2016 10:50:19 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote: On 11/24/2016 9:09 AM, Charles Bishop wrote: I've been asked to help install grab bars in an (E) tiled shower stall. What is the best way to do this? Ordinarily I'd drill a hole through the tile and whatever is behind it -mortar, greenwall, or backer board and install the grab bar with toggle bolts. I got to wondering though that if I drill a hole large enough for a toggle bolt to go through, I might be weakening the wall enough that holding onto the grab bar might pull some tiles loose, leading to additional work. Additionally, the house is an older one, having been built in late 50's or 60's so it's likely there is a mortar bed - it looks to be the original tile. If the mortar crumbles around the hole, the toggle bolt will be pulling on the tile, maybe. Considering the construction, I'd try to avoid toggle bolts. Can you find a stud? Long screws in the stud is perfect. +1 If the tile doesn't go all the way up to the ceiling, find the studs above the tile. Then use a string and a plumb-bob to assist finding the studs behind the tile. and if they do go to the top, what about the wall behind? Locate the studs on the back of the wall and drill through the stud with a small drill - and out through the tile to locate the first stud, then just go 16" over for the next ione. Patch the 1/8" hole on the backside of the wall. |
Grab Bars in a Shower Stall
HerHusband wrote:
Hi Charles, I've been asked to help install grab bars in an (E) tiled shower stall. What's the best way to do this? Ordinarily I'd drill a hole through the tile and whatever is behind it -mortar, greenwall, or backer board and install the grab bar with toggle bolts. I got to wondering though that if I drill a hole large enough for a toggle bolt to go through, I might be weakening the wall enough that holding onto the grab bar might pull some tiles loose, leading to additional work. Additionally, the house is an older one, having been built in late 50's or 60's so it's likely there is a mortar bed - it looks to be the original tile. If the mortar crumbles around the hole, the toggle bolt will be pulling on the tile, maybe. Ideally, you should screw the grab bar directly to the studs, or to blocking installed behind the wall. Of course, there is rarely blocking available unless someone planned ahead. Also, even if you find a stud for one end, the other end probably won't line up with the next stud. I recently installed a grab bar at my mother-in-law's house. I located one end over a stud and drove screws directly into the stud. The other end landed between studs, so I used the anchor system designed by the manufacturer for this situation: https://www.amazon.com/Moen-SMA1005CH-Home-Securemount- Chrome/dp/B004Q02FX0/ref=sr_1_2 How to video for this product shown he https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzwgnBckzsY I'm not sure how the dedicated anchor compares to a standard toggle bolt. It cost more and required a much larger hole (1-1/4" if I remember correctly), but it did provide a very secure mount for the grab bar. In my case, I was drilling into drywall, so it wasn't a big problem. Drilling a 1-1/4" hole in tile could take a bit more work, but it's doable. If you have access to the other side of the wall, one other option might be to cut a hole and install blocking from the back side. Then patch the hole on the back side when you're done. That's probably more trouble than it's worth, but it would be secure if you're concerned about the strength of the existing tile wall. Anthony Watson www.watsondiy.com www.mountainsoftware.com |
Grab Bars in a Shower Stall
Per Charles Bishop:
Ordinarily I'd drill a hole through the tile and whatever is behind it -mortar, greenwall, or backer board and install the grab bar with toggle bolts. I don't like the toggle bolts. With toggle bolts, it will probably feel nice and solid - until somebody falls, grabs it, and puts most of their weight on it..... and then things could get ugly.... and with your name on it. Go for a stud. -- Pete Cresswell |
Grab Bars in a Shower Stall
On 11/24/2016 12:21 PM, Stormin' Norman wrote:
I have a couple of those suction cup grab bars. You need large tiles for them. Mentioned here a couple of months ago and others thought they would not be sturdy but I have not seen a problem with them. I would not put full weight on them but there are a lot of things I would not put full weight on. My first shower was not done right as it was on plain wall board and a cup might have pulled a tile off. Some builders are chincy and do this. Unfortunately, if we old folks lose our balance, we instinctively reach out for the grab bars. When we need them most is when we are possibly exerting a great deal of force. I am over 6'7" and still weigh 262lbs, that represents a lot of energy being transferred, in a short period of time, to the grab bars. I have stainless bars in my large, walk-in, unenclosed shower and have really needed them three times. I was quite grateful they were firmly attached. One time my wife said she felt the wall of the house shudder when I slipped. Sure, a well secured bar is best, but something is better than nothing. Most of the time you can avoid the need to put full weight by simply holding the bar while entering or exiting the shower. I use the bar as a device for balance, not keeping from hitting the ground. Pound in a 16d nail about a third of the way and bend it over and it will prevent some falls just by holding the nail to steady yourself. For a couple of years in my old fiberglass showers we used the suction cop bars and they were a big help. |
Grab Bars in a Shower Stall
On Thursday, November 24, 2016 at 7:51:05 PM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 11/24/2016 12:21 PM, Stormin' Norman wrote: I have a couple of those suction cup grab bars. You need large tiles for them. Mentioned here a couple of months ago and others thought they would not be sturdy but I have not seen a problem with them. I would not put full weight on them but there are a lot of things I would not put full weight on. My first shower was not done right as it was on plain wall board and a cup might have pulled a tile off. Some builders are chincy and do this. Unfortunately, if we old folks lose our balance, we instinctively reach out for the grab bars. When we need them most is when we are possibly exerting a great deal of force. I am over 6'7" and still weigh 262lbs, that represents a lot of energy being transferred, in a short period of time, to the grab bars. I have stainless bars in my large, walk-in, unenclosed shower and have really needed them three times. I was quite grateful they were firmly attached. One time my wife said she felt the wall of the house shudder when I slipped. Sure, a well secured bar is best, but something is better than nothing. Most of the time you can avoid the need to put full weight by simply holding the bar while entering or exiting the shower. I use the bar as a device for balance, not keeping from hitting the ground. Pound in a 16d nail about a third of the way and bend it over and it will prevent some falls just by holding the nail to steady yourself. Didn't we just go through this a few months ago? "Most of the time you can avoid the need to put full weight..." Sure, when you are intentionally trying to avoid putting full weight on it. The problem comes when you reflexively need to put full weight on it and your eyes/brain expect the bar to be secure. You don't even consider another option because the bar is there. The bar with the suction cups. No thanks. I'd rather do without. For a couple of years in my old fiberglass showers we used the suction cop bars and they were a big help. |
Grab Bars in a Shower Stall
On 11/24/2016 9:08 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, November 24, 2016 at 7:51:05 PM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote: On 11/24/2016 12:21 PM, Stormin' Norman wrote: Sure, a well secured bar is best, but something is better than nothing. Most of the time you can avoid the need to put full weight by simply holding the bar while entering or exiting the shower. I use the bar as a device for balance, not keeping from hitting the ground. Pound in a 16d nail about a third of the way and bend it over and it will prevent some falls just by holding the nail to steady yourself. Didn't we just go through this a few months ago? "Most of the time you can avoid the need to put full weight..." Sure, when you are intentionally trying to avoid putting full weight on it. The problem comes when you reflexively need to put full weight on it and your eyes/brain expect the bar to be secure. You don't even consider another option because the bar is there. The bar with the suction cups. No thanks. I'd rather do without. Yes, we did; I was wondering how long before you'd disagree. IMO, going without any aid is dumb if you can have something that will prevent a fall or slip. Have you ever used a suction cup bar? They are pretty damned strong and reliable. I also think I'm a decade or two older than you and can better appreciate an aid to prevent a slip so that full pressure is never needed. As stated, even a bent nail can prevent a fall as it will steady you. Put a foot of rope hanging from it to make it easier to hold if you want to get fancy. Perfect? No, but far better than noting. http://www.consumerreports.org/healt...-a-grip-ov.htm It grips, but we still have a few gripes. First, that disconnect between claim and instructions: If you're not supposed to use the handle for stability, what's the point? Also, installation can be a bit of a chore for people with limited hand strength. Under our steadily increasing load, the BB&B versions with larger cups held 196 pounds on average; the Get A Grip Web-site version held 136 on average. For someone who needs a little assistance in the shower or tub, either version of Get A Grip should work fine. But don't rely on it for support in a fall. |
Grab Bars in a Shower Stall
On Thursday, November 24, 2016 at 9:42:27 PM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 11/24/2016 9:08 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote: On Thursday, November 24, 2016 at 7:51:05 PM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote: On 11/24/2016 12:21 PM, Stormin' Norman wrote: Sure, a well secured bar is best, but something is better than nothing. Most of the time you can avoid the need to put full weight by simply holding the bar while entering or exiting the shower. I use the bar as a device for balance, not keeping from hitting the ground. Pound in a 16d nail about a third of the way and bend it over and it will prevent some falls just by holding the nail to steady yourself. Didn't we just go through this a few months ago? "Most of the time you can avoid the need to put full weight..." Sure, when you are intentionally trying to avoid putting full weight on it. The problem comes when you reflexively need to put full weight on it and your eyes/brain expect the bar to be secure. You don't even consider another option because the bar is there. The bar with the suction cups. No thanks. I'd rather do without. Yes, we did; I was wondering how long before you'd disagree. IMO, going without any aid is dumb if you can have something that will prevent a fall or slip. Have you ever used a suction cup bar? They are pretty damned strong and reliable. I also think I'm a decade or two older than you and can better appreciate an aid to prevent a slip so that full pressure is never needed. Does your age start with an 8? How can you be sure full pressure will never be needed? |
Grab Bars in a Shower Stall
On 11/24/2016 10:19 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, November 24, 2016 at 9:42:27 PM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote: On 11/24/2016 9:08 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote: On Thursday, November 24, 2016 at 7:51:05 PM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote: On 11/24/2016 12:21 PM, Stormin' Norman wrote: Sure, a well secured bar is best, but something is better than nothing. Most of the time you can avoid the need to put full weight by simply holding the bar while entering or exiting the shower. I use the bar as a device for balance, not keeping from hitting the ground. Pound in a 16d nail about a third of the way and bend it over and it will prevent some falls just by holding the nail to steady yourself. Didn't we just go through this a few months ago? "Most of the time you can avoid the need to put full weight..." Sure, when you are intentionally trying to avoid putting full weight on it. The problem comes when you reflexively need to put full weight on it and your eyes/brain expect the bar to be secure. You don't even consider another option because the bar is there. The bar with the suction cups. No thanks. I'd rather do without. Yes, we did; I was wondering how long before you'd disagree. IMO, going without any aid is dumb if you can have something that will prevent a fall or slip. Have you ever used a suction cup bar? They are pretty damned strong and reliable. I also think I'm a decade or two older than you and can better appreciate an aid to prevent a slip so that full pressure is never needed. Does your age start with an 8? How can you be sure full pressure will never be needed? Starts with a 7. Can't be sure full pressure is never needed. OTOH, if you have nothing, what do you do if you start to slip? Put your soapy hand on a wet wall?. Grab a shower curtain? Perhaps if you had a handle to put your hand on you'd not slip. |
Grab Bars in a Shower Stall
In article ,
Charles Bishop wrote: I've been asked to help install grab bars in an (E) tiled shower stall. What is the best way to do this? Ordinarily I'd drill a hole through the tile and whatever is behind it -mortar, greenwall, or backer board and install the grab bar with toggle bolts. I got to wondering though that if I drill a hole large enough for a toggle bolt to go through, I might be weakening the wall enough that holding onto the grab bar might pull some tiles loose, leading to additional work. Additionally, the house is an older one, having been built in late 50's or 60's so it's likely there is a mortar bed - it looks to be the original tile. If the mortar crumbles around the hole, the toggle bolt will be pulling on the tile, maybe. Thanks for the replies. I'm going to reply here rather than individually. 0. The bar is to be mounted horizontally rather than vertically - is this recommended against? 1. Not going to use toggles, as people have recommended against them. 2. Mounting to a stud is the best, but 2.1 As far as I know the flange at the end has 3 holes for screws at 120 degrees apart. If the "top" hole is centered on the stud, the bottom two will either be at the far sides of the stud, and I wouldn't consider this secure. In addition, the stud may not be plumb enough to guarantee finding a secure anchor and if so, there are holes in the tile. 2.2 It will be unlikely the second end will land on a stud, so then I'm back to toggles. The bar can be angled, but it may have to be angled too much to be useful to meet a stud. 3. The best solution was to open up the wall on the other side, and put in 2 by 6 between studs where I need them. I hadn't thought of that. I don't know if this is possible yet so I'll check. -- charles |
Grab Bars in a Shower Stall
On Friday, November 25, 2016 at 1:26:41 AM UTC-5, Charles Bishop wrote:
In article , Charles Bishop wrote: I've been asked to help install grab bars in an (E) tiled shower stall. What is the best way to do this? Ordinarily I'd drill a hole through the tile and whatever is behind it -mortar, greenwall, or backer board and install the grab bar with toggle bolts. I got to wondering though that if I drill a hole large enough for a toggle bolt to go through, I might be weakening the wall enough that holding onto the grab bar might pull some tiles loose, leading to additional work. Additionally, the house is an older one, having been built in late 50's or 60's so it's likely there is a mortar bed - it looks to be the original tile. If the mortar crumbles around the hole, the toggle bolt will be pulling on the tile, maybe. Thanks for the replies. I'm going to reply here rather than individually. 0. The bar is to be mounted horizontally rather than vertically - is this recommended against? 1. Not going to use toggles, as people have recommended against them. 2. Mounting to a stud is the best, but 2.1 As far as I know the flange at the end has 3 holes for screws at 120 degrees apart. If the "top" hole is centered on the stud, the bottom two will either be at the far sides of the stud, and I wouldn't consider this secure. In addition, the stud may not be plumb enough to guarantee finding a secure anchor and if so, there are holes in the tile. 2.2 It will be unlikely the second end will land on a stud, so then I'm back to toggles. The bar can be angled, but it may have to be angled too much to be useful to meet a stud. 3. The best solution was to open up the wall on the other side, and put in 2 by 6 between studs where I need them. I hadn't thought of that. I don't know if this is possible yet so I'll check. -- charles Arnie posted a link to a mount that addresses your stud and non-stud mounting issues. Did you view it? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzwgnBckzsY |
Grab Bars in a Shower Stall
On Thu, 24 Nov 2016 22:26:36 -0700, Charles Bishop wrote:
In article , Charles Bishop wrote: I've been asked to help install grab bars in an (E) tiled shower stall. What is the best way to do this? Ordinarily I'd drill a hole through the tile and whatever is behind it -mortar, greenwall, or backer board and install the grab bar with toggle bolts. I got to wondering though that if I drill a hole large enough for a toggle bolt to go through, I might be weakening the wall enough that holding onto the grab bar might pull some tiles loose, leading to additional work. Additionally, the house is an older one, having been built in late 50's or 60's so it's likely there is a mortar bed - it looks to be the original tile. If the mortar crumbles around the hole, the toggle bolt will be pulling on the tile, maybe. Thanks for the replies. I'm going to reply here rather than individually. 0. The bar is to be mounted horizontally rather than vertically - is this recommended against? 1. Not going to use toggles, as people have recommended against them. 2. Mounting to a stud is the best, but 2.1 As far as I know the flange at the end has 3 holes for screws at 120 degrees apart. If the "top" hole is centered on the stud, the bottom two will either be at the far sides of the stud, and I wouldn't consider this secure. In addition, the stud may not be plumb enough to guarantee finding a secure anchor and if so, there are holes in the tile. Drill an additional hole in the mounting flange? What material is the flange made from? If stainless, steel, drilling a hole could be a little tedious but not impossible. 2.2 It will be unlikely the second end will land on a stud, so then I'm back to toggles. The bar can be angled, but it may have to be angled too much to be useful to meet a stud. Has the bar been purchased already? Can it be exchanged for a proper length bar? How long is the bar? 3. The best solution was to open up the wall on the other side, and put in 2 by 6 between studs where I need them. I hadn't thought of that. I don't know if this is possible yet so I'll check. If opening up the other side of the wall is an option, then your problems are solved. However, if you can avoid the extra work, I would. |
Grab Bars in a Shower Stall
On Thursday, November 24, 2016 at 11:33:29 PM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 11/24/2016 10:19 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote: On Thursday, November 24, 2016 at 9:42:27 PM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote: On 11/24/2016 9:08 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote: On Thursday, November 24, 2016 at 7:51:05 PM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote: On 11/24/2016 12:21 PM, Stormin' Norman wrote: Sure, a well secured bar is best, but something is better than nothing. Most of the time you can avoid the need to put full weight by simply holding the bar while entering or exiting the shower. I use the bar as a device for balance, not keeping from hitting the ground. Pound in a 16d nail about a third of the way and bend it over and it will prevent some falls just by holding the nail to steady yourself. Didn't we just go through this a few months ago? "Most of the time you can avoid the need to put full weight..." Sure, when you are intentionally trying to avoid putting full weight on it. The problem comes when you reflexively need to put full weight on it and your eyes/brain expect the bar to be secure. You don't even consider another option because the bar is there. The bar with the suction cups. No thanks. I'd rather do without. Yes, we did; I was wondering how long before you'd disagree. IMO, going without any aid is dumb if you can have something that will prevent a fall or slip. Have you ever used a suction cup bar? They are pretty damned strong and reliable. I also think I'm a decade or two older than you and can better appreciate an aid to prevent a slip so that full pressure is never needed. Does your age start with an 8? How can you be sure full pressure will never be needed? Starts with a 7. Can't be sure full pressure is never needed. OTOH, if you have nothing, what do you do if you start to slip? Put your soapy hand on a wet wall?. Grab a shower curtain? Perhaps if you had a handle to put your hand on you'd not slip. I have a built in bar in the shower stall and a built in bar in the tub-shower. I didn't say I don't think grab bars are a good idea, I said I'd rather do without than rely on a bar where even the manufacturer's lawyers don't trust it. I don't care what it would take to install a proper grab bar. I would do it. I would never install a suction cup grab bar any sooner than I would put a sawhorse at the edge of a deck and call it a railing. |
Grab Bars in a Shower Stall
On 11/25/2016 12:26 AM, Charles Bishop wrote:
Thanks for the replies. I'm going to reply here rather than individually. 0. The bar is to be mounted horizontally rather than vertically - is this recommended against? We have two bars. One is about 15" and is vertical at the front of the shower. You can easily grab this as you enter or exit. The other is on the back wall. In the 60" shower it is a 48" bar, in the 48" shower we used a 30" bar. The bar in the rear is good to hold while in the shower. |
Grab Bars in a Shower Stall
On 11/25/2016 8:12 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
I didn't say I don't think grab bars are a good idea, I said I'd rather do without than rely on a bar where even the manufacturer's lawyers don't trust it. I don't care what it would take to install a proper grab bar. I would do it. I would never install a suction cup grab bar any sooner than I would put a sawhorse at the edge of a deck and call it a railing. Not everyone can do or have done a proper installation. While a screwed in bar is best, something is better than nothing. That wet soapy hand reaching against a wet flat wall is not going to help much. The suction cup bar will though. The sawhorse at the edge of the deck is not going to provide the same safety as a railing, but it does give people visual clues that they are near the edge. Could be a life saver. |
Grab Bars in a Shower Stall
Per Ed Pawlowski:
IMO, going without any aid is dumb if you can have something that will prevent a fall or slip. I wonder if we are setting up a false choice he between a bar that is not anchored to a stud and no bar at all. -- Pete Cresswell |
Grab Bars in a Shower Stall
On Fri, 25 Nov 2016 10:05:56 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 11/25/2016 12:26 AM, Charles Bishop wrote: Thanks for the replies. I'm going to reply here rather than individually. 0. The bar is to be mounted horizontally rather than vertically - is this recommended against? We have two bars. One is about 15" and is vertical at the front of the shower. You can easily grab this as you enter or exit. The other is on the back wall. In the 60" shower it is a 48" bar, in the 48" shower we used a 30" bar. The bar in the rear is good to hold while in the shower. Let me add, regardless of grab bars, be sure the floor of the shower or tub is slip resistant or has some kind of slip resistant mat or appliques. Also, if the person using the shower is very unstable, a shower seat might be a great investment. |
Another way to find the edges of the stud behind tiles.
I have had to install grab bars over tiles and it is hard to find the edges,
so that you can be certain that the screws go into solid wood and not split out the edge. I used a good stud finder to find the general location of the stud, but then needed to confirm where the center of the stud was. I had a small diameter steel spring or piano wire length about 1/32" in diameter, sharpened one end to look similar to a drill point and wound copper wire around the other end so that it was large enough for a drill chuck to hold onto. Then I guided the wire drill bit in between the tiles in the grout joint, where there was no stud the wire would easily penetrate after passing through the grout and backing material. When it hit a stud one would feel it slowly enter the wood. Four or five holes would locate the edges of the stud and confirm where the centerline was so that the tile could be drilled for the anchor screw to be firmly attached. When finished a little grout or caulking fills the tiny holes to keep water out. "Charles Bishop" wrote in message ... I've been asked to help install grab bars in an (E) tiled shower stall. What is the best way to do this? Ordinarily I'd drill a hole through the tile and whatever is behind it -mortar, greenwall, or backer board and install the grab bar with toggle bolts. I got to wondering though that if I drill a hole large enough for a toggle bolt to go through, I might be weakening the wall enough that holding onto the grab bar might pull some tiles loose, leading to additional work. Additionally, the house is an older one, having been built in late 50's or 60's so it's likely there is a mortar bed - it looks to be the original tile. If the mortar crumbles around the hole, the toggle bolt will be pulling on the tile, maybe. -- charles |
Grab Bars in a Shower Stall
On 11/25/2016 10:23 AM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per Ed Pawlowski: IMO, going without any aid is dumb if you can have something that will prevent a fall or slip. I wonder if we are setting up a false choice he between a bar that is not anchored to a stud and no bar at all. Nothing is nothing and zero help. The suction cup bars are really pretty rugged. The idea is to PREVENT the fall where you have to put extreme pressure on it. Most times you just use a light hold to keep yourself steady. We used one for a couple of years and it is a great aid for safety. When the bathrooms were remodeled the new bars were anchored. As I stated before, even a bent nail to hold is better than nothing. |
Grab Bars in a Shower Stall
In ,
Arnie Goetchius typed: TomR wrote: In , Stormin' Norman typed: On Thu, 24 Nov 2016 07:09:09 -0700, Charles Bishop wrote: I've been asked to help install grab bars in an (E) tiled shower stall. What is the best way to do this? Ordinarily I'd drill a hole through the tile and whatever is behind it -mortar, greenwall, or backer board and install the grab bar with toggle bolts. I got to wondering though that if I drill a hole large enough for a toggle bolt to go through, I might be weakening the wall enough that holding onto the grab bar might pull some tiles loose, leading to additional work. Additionally, the house is an older one, having been built in late 50's or 60's so it's likely there is a mortar bed - it looks to be the original tile. If the mortar crumbles around the hole, the toggle bolt will be pulling on the tile, maybe. Also, check out the many videos that are available at http://YouTube.com . I went there and I did a search for "grab bars for shower" and I found plenty of excellent videos. One that I thought was interesting (although I don't know if I would use that product) was: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKpXa4elASM Here is another video using a Moen grab bar that does not require you to fasten to a stud. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzwgnBckzsY Interesting YouTube video. Thanks. It seems to use a style of brace behind the wall that is similar to the one that I had found in a different video. However, this Moen video shows how they base their claim that the device is strong enough to meet all applicable codes. So, maybe it does work. |
Grab Bars in a Shower Stall
On Fri, 25 Nov 2016 12:10:07 -0500, "TomR" wrote:
In , Arnie Goetchius typed: TomR wrote: In , Stormin' Norman typed: On Thu, 24 Nov 2016 07:09:09 -0700, Charles Bishop wrote: I've been asked to help install grab bars in an (E) tiled shower stall. What is the best way to do this? Ordinarily I'd drill a hole through the tile and whatever is behind it -mortar, greenwall, or backer board and install the grab bar with toggle bolts. I got to wondering though that if I drill a hole large enough for a toggle bolt to go through, I might be weakening the wall enough that holding onto the grab bar might pull some tiles loose, leading to additional work. Additionally, the house is an older one, having been built in late 50's or 60's so it's likely there is a mortar bed - it looks to be the original tile. If the mortar crumbles around the hole, the toggle bolt will be pulling on the tile, maybe. Also, check out the many videos that are available at http://YouTube.com . I went there and I did a search for "grab bars for shower" and I found plenty of excellent videos. One that I thought was interesting (although I don't know if I would use that product) was: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKpXa4elASM Here is another video using a Moen grab bar that does not require you to fasten to a stud. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzwgnBckzsY Interesting YouTube video. Thanks. It seems to use a style of brace behind the wall that is similar to the one that I had found in a different video. However, this Moen video shows how they base their claim that the device is strong enough to meet all applicable codes. So, maybe it does work. Did you notice in the moen video how they only tested the vertical impact with a 50 lbs. weight dropped only 12 inches? |
Grab Bars in a Shower Stall
In ,
Ed Pawlowski typed: On 11/25/2016 8:12 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote: I didn't say I don't think grab bars are a good idea, I said I'd rather do without than rely on a bar where even the manufacturer's lawyers don't trust it. I don't care what it would take to install a proper grab bar. I would do it. I would never install a suction cup grab bar any sooner than I would put a sawhorse at the edge of a deck and call it a railing. Not everyone can do or have done a proper installation. While a screwed in bar is best, something is better than nothing. That wet soapy hand reaching against a wet flat wall is not going to help much. The suction cup bar will though. The sawhorse at the edge of the deck is not going to provide the same safety as a railing, but it does give people visual clues that they are near the edge. Could be a life saver. I agree with your idea and concept in general. One key point would be whether the grab bar installation would be for me in my own home or if it would be for someone else's home (or a rental property) where the installer (me or a contractor is putting it in for third party use). In my own home, I don't have a true grab bar. On the wall of the tub/shower there is a metal towel rack. It was there when I bought my home. I doubt that it would meet any standard as a safety grab bar and, fortunately, I have never had to test it by falling and grabbing the towel rack to prevent or slow my fall. My guess is that in a worst case scenario, involving a conscious slip and fall, where I grab the towel rack for safety, it may help slow or break my fall -- which I think is a plus. And, I do sometimes use it for "balance" to keep myself oriented when turning around in the shower/tub etc. But, it is also high enough up that I wouldn't be able to try to use it to pull myself up out of the tub while taking a bath. So, again, for my own use, what I have now is useful and I don't want to remove it or replace it with a "real" grab bar. But, I also know that I am unlikely to sue myself if I use to towel rack to break a fall and it fails. In addition, in a true "I passed out unconscious" fainting episode, no grab bar will help because the person who passed out won't be conscious enough to even reach for anything -- unless maybe the person got dizzy first and then became unconscious. On the other hand, if I (or a contractor) were to install a grab bar for a third party, I think that it would be important to install it up to all of the safety codes as a defense in case and occupant/user of the premises decides to sue the installer (me and/or a contractor) if there is a slip and fall and the installed device fails in some way. |
Grab Bars in a Shower Stall
In ,
HerHusband typed: Hi Charles, I've been asked to help install grab bars in an (E) tiled shower stall. What's the best way to do this? Ordinarily I'd drill a hole through the tile and whatever is behind it -mortar, greenwall, or backer board and install the grab bar with toggle bolts. I got to wondering though that if I drill a hole large enough for a toggle bolt to go through, I might be weakening the wall enough that holding onto the grab bar might pull some tiles loose, leading to additional work. Additionally, the house is an older one, having been built in late 50's or 60's so it's likely there is a mortar bed - it looks to be the original tile. If the mortar crumbles around the hole, the toggle bolt will be pulling on the tile, maybe. If you have access to the other side of the wall, one other option might be to cut a hole and install blocking from the back side. Then patch the hole on the back side when you're done. That's probably more trouble than it's worth, but it would be secure if you're concerned about the strength of the existing tile wall. I agree -- that's another option if access to the wall from the other side is available. |
Grab Bars in a Shower Stall
In ,
Stormin' Norman typed: On Fri, 25 Nov 2016 12:10:07 -0500, "TomR" wrote: In , Arnie Goetchius typed: TomR wrote: In , Stormin' Norman typed: On Thu, 24 Nov 2016 07:09:09 -0700, Charles Bishop wrote: I've been asked to help install grab bars in an (E) tiled shower stall. What is the best way to do this? Ordinarily I'd drill a hole through the tile and whatever is behind it -mortar, greenwall, or backer board and install the grab bar with toggle bolts. I got to wondering though that if I drill a hole large enough for a toggle bolt to go through, I might be weakening the wall enough that holding onto the grab bar might pull some tiles loose, leading to additional work. Additionally, the house is an older one, having been built in late 50's or 60's so it's likely there is a mortar bed - it looks to be the original tile. If the mortar crumbles around the hole, the toggle bolt will be pulling on the tile, maybe. Also, check out the many videos that are available at http://YouTube.com . I went there and I did a search for "grab bars for shower" and I found plenty of excellent videos. One that I thought was interesting (although I don't know if I would use that product) was: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKpXa4elASM Here is another video using a Moen grab bar that does not require you to fasten to a stud. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzwgnBckzsY Interesting YouTube video. Thanks. It seems to use a style of brace behind the wall that is similar to the one that I had found in a different video. However, this Moen video shows how they base their claim that the device is strong enough to meet all applicable codes. So, maybe it does work. Did you notice in the moen video how they only tested the vertical impact with a 50 lbs. weight dropped only 12 inches? Yes, I saw that and thought about it in the same way that you did. However, they seemed to say (or imply) that their system meets or exceeds all known code standards, and I assumed that the 12-inch 50 pound drop test may be one of them. But, I don't know if it is. |
Grab Bars in a Shower Stall
On 11/25/2016 12:12 PM, Stormin' Norman wrote:
Here is another video using a Moen grab bar that does not require you to fasten to a stud. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzwgnBckzsY Interesting YouTube video. Thanks. It seems to use a style of brace behind the wall that is similar to the one that I had found in a different video. However, this Moen video shows how they base their claim that the device is strong enough to meet all applicable codes. So, maybe it does work. Did you notice in the moen video how they only tested the vertical impact with a 50 lbs. weight dropped only 12 inches? Is that wrong? What are the G forces in 12 inches. I think it is about 7.5 so that 50 pound weight is equal to 375#. That was from memory, feel free to nit pick it, but it goes give you a good idea of the real force. |
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