Daughter just tiled her kitchen back splash with ~ 12" matted squares of
rough textured "stone faced" tiles. Individual pieces are ~ 3/4" by
anywhere from 1" to 1½" in width and perhaps 3/8" - 1/2" thick.

Tile is a light tan color but the coloration varies. Nice looking and
all would be well in the world if only the manufacturer had not inserted
darker pieces in the border of each mat where it interlocks with the others.

Upon installation when step back and view it from a distance there is a
very distinct vertical dark area as well as a horizontal one where the
mats butt together.

It's bad enough that it has to be cured "in place" or removed completely
and start with a fresh wall.

She has some extra sheets remaining and tells me

1) there is no way to remove lighter pieces from the field to insert
where the darker ones exist in the boarder. (I have my doubts about
this. Perhaps not easily removed/replaced, but I suspect where there's
a will there's a way)

My thoughts a

1) not knowing if the stone tiles are colored by dye or au natural, I'm
thinking about "feathering out the coloration along the horizontal
"seams" with a wash of diluted muriatic acid and see if we can't bleach
it out a bit.

2) if that doesn't work, investigate removing the darker ones (contrary
to her belief that it cannot be done) and blend it/soften it that way.
Note that these individual tiles are butted tight against one another
and no grouting is used or recommended with this tile. I have a diamond
bladed tile saw and, I think, the patience to do the trimming
(lengthwise only AFAICT)

3) Look into a masonry or concrete dye, make a wash that will darken the
entire wall. This is not all that desirable as she still likes the
varied coloration in the tile.

4) Pick a lighter color and paint the damn tile and be done with it.

Anyone have a better suggestion or wish to warn me off of attempting any
(or all) of the above solutions?

Thanks!

On 4/19/2016 7:54 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
Daughter just tiled her kitchen back splash with ~ 12" matted squares of rough
textured "stone faced" tiles. Individual pieces are ~ 3/4" by anywhere from 1"
to 1½" in width and perhaps 3/8" - 1/2" thick.

Tile is a light tan color but the coloration varies. Nice looking and all
would be well in the world if only the manufacturer had not inserted darker
pieces in the border of each mat where it interlocks with the others.

Upon installation when step back and view it from a distance there is a very
distinct vertical dark area as well as a horizontal one where the mats butt
together.

It's bad enough that it has to be cured "in place" or removed completely and
start with a fresh wall.

She has some extra sheets remaining and tells me

1) there is no way to remove lighter pieces from the field to insert where the
darker ones exist in the boarder. (I have my doubts about this. Perhaps not
easily removed/replaced, but I suspect where there's a will there's a way)

Without a photo, I'm just guessing...

But, shall I assume these little tiles are adhered to a "mesh" (like a really
coarse weave "burlap")? Is there visible space BETWEEN the tiles (the
equivalent of grout lines)? Or, are they tightly packed?

E.g., bathroom floor tile ages ago was "sheets" of small 1"x1", 1x2, 2x2 tiles
arranged in a seemingly "random" pattern. So, when you laid these sheets,
the floor looked like it had been pieced together one (variable size) tile at
a time.

[Your comments suggest these aren't as "regular" in size/shape?]

With that bathroom tile image in mind, you appear to be saying that all
the tiles on the edge (or *an* edge, same problem, different visual
aspect) are "dark". So, when you lay these sheets of seemingly
random little tiles together, the randomness illusion is shattered
by this periodic "dark stripe" -- every 12 inches, etc.

Instead of removing/replacing tiles, can you, instead, ELIMINATE tiles?
For example, instead of a square with dark borders, strategically cut
out a few tiles along an edge -- giving the "set" a more irregular shape.

Then, arrange to remove a complementary set of tiles on the OTHER edge
(i.e., the edge of the adjacent tile that would mate with this one)
so that the two sets fit together like "puzzle pieces" -- instead of
"nice, REGULAR squares?"

E.g., instead of (ASCII art):

XXXYYYYYYYYLLLL
XXXZZZZZZQQQQQQ
AAAAABBBBQQQQQQ
AAAAABBBBCMMMWW
AAAAADDDDCMMMBB

cobble up the tiles to resemble:

....YYYYYYYYLLLL
XXXZZZZZZQQQ...
..AAAABBBBQQQQ..
....AABBBBCMMMWW
..AAAADDDDCMMM..

(the '.' represent placeholders for folks without fixed width fonts)

So, when you lay two sets side-by-side, you get:

....YYYYYYYYLLLL ...YYYYYYYYLLLL
XXXZZZZZZQQQ... XXXZZZZZZQQQ...
..AAAABBBBQQQQ.. .AAAABBBBQQQQ..
....AABBBBCMMMWW ...AABBBBCMMMWW
..AAAADDDDCMMM.. .AAAADDDDCMMM..

And, when you cram those together (letting the overlaps from one set
fill the corresponding "voids" in the other) you *see*:

....YYYYYYYYLLLLYYYYYYYYLLLL
XXXZZZZZZQQQXXXZZZZZZQQQ...
..AAAABBBBQQQQAAAABBBBQQQQ..
....AABBBBCMMMWWAABBBBCMMMWW
..AAAADDDDCMMAAAADDDDCMMM...

instead of:

XXXYYYYYYYYLLLLXXXYYYYYYYYLLLL
XXXZZZZZZQQQQQQXXXZZZZZZQQQQQQ
AAAAABBBBQQQQQQAAAAABBBBQQQQQQ
AAAAABBBBCMMMWWAAAAABBBBCMMMWW
AAAAADDDDCMMMBBAAAAADDDDCMMMBB

[sorry, I refuse to post HTML]

Yeah, its a fair bit of work (and might not be possible without
a close examination of your particular "tile sets") but it
should break up the pattern -- esp if it is as pronounced as
you suggest.

You can cheat *if* your set has a "line" that runs through it.
E.g., cut the top two rows (of letters, in my example) off
of the bottom 3 rows and shift it over a fair bit.

My thoughts a

1) not knowing if the stone tiles are colored by dye or au natural, I'm
thinking about "feathering out the coloration along the horizontal "seams" with
a wash of diluted muriatic acid and see if we can't bleach it out a bit.

2) if that doesn't work, investigate removing the darker ones (contrary to her
belief that it cannot be done) and blend it/soften it that way. Note that these
individual tiles are butted tight against one another and no grouting is used
or recommended with this tile. I have a diamond bladed tile saw and, I think,
the patience to do the trimming (lengthwise only AFAICT)

3) Look into a masonry or concrete dye, make a wash that will darken the entire
wall. This is not all that desirable as she still likes the varied coloration
in the tile.

4) Pick a lighter color and paint the damn tile and be done with it.

Anyone have a better suggestion or wish to warn me off of attempting any (or
all) of the above solutions?

Thanks!

On 04/19/2016 08:54 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
Daughter just tiled her kitchen back splash with ~ 12" matted squares of rough textured "stone faced" tiles. Individual pieces are ~ 3/4" by anywhere from 1" to 1½" in width and perhaps 3/8" - 1/2" thick.

Tile is a light tan color but the coloration varies. Nice looking and all would be well in the world if only the manufacturer had not inserted darker pieces in the border of each mat where it interlocks with the others.

Upon installation when step back and view it from a distance there is a very distinct vertical dark area as well as a horizontal one where the mats butt together.

Don't worry about minor color variations.

By the time most women get done decorating a kitchen, there's so much gobdamn knickknack clutter on the counter tops that you can't see the back splash anyway.

On 04/20/2016 03:26 AM, Harry Calahan wrote:
On 04/19/2016 08:54 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
Daughter just tiled her kitchen back splash with ~ 12" matted squares
of rough textured "stone faced" tiles. Individual pieces are ~ 3/4"
by anywhere from 1" to 1½" in width and perhaps 3/8" - 1/2" thick.

Tile is a light tan color but the coloration varies. Nice looking and
all would be well in the world if only the manufacturer had not
inserted darker pieces in the border of each mat where it interlocks
with the others.

Upon installation when step back and view it from a distance there is
a very distinct vertical dark area as well as a horizontal one where
the mats butt together.

Don't worry about minor color variations.

I agree, it's only noticeable because it's new and you are looking for
problems...more than likely it won't be noticed after a few weeks.



By the time most women get done decorating a kitchen, there's so much
gobdamn knickknack clutter on the counter tops that you can't see the
back splash anyway.

On 04/19/2016 9:54 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:

....saga elided for brevity...

Anyone have a better suggestion or wish to warn me off of attempting any
(or all) of the above solutions?

As a couple have said, the answer is probably "just live with it" as the
most likely solution but if it's really _that_ much of a distraction
before you do something too extreme I'd suggest contacting the
manufacturer for information regarding the specific tile pattern.
Probably this is a "feature" but perhaps there was an error either in
installation or (rarely, but not unheard of) manufacture.

--

On 4/20/2016 3:26 AM, Harry Calahan wrote:
On 04/19/2016 08:54 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
Daughter just tiled her kitchen back splash with ~ 12" matted squares
of rough textured "stone faced" tiles. Individual pieces are ~ 3/4"
by anywhere from 1" to 1½" in width and perhaps 3/8" - 1/2" thick.

Tile is a light tan color but the coloration varies. Nice looking and
all would be well in the world if only the manufacturer had not
inserted darker pieces in the border of each mat where it interlocks
with the others.

Upon installation when step back and view it from a distance there is
a very distinct vertical dark area as well as a horizontal one where
the mats butt together.

Don't worry about minor color variations.

By the time most women get done decorating a kitchen, there's so much
gobdamn knickknack clutter on the counter tops that you can't see the
back splash anyway.

Unfortunately, there is no clutter to cover this problem and it is NOT a
minor color variation. She sent us photos along with her concerns and
from the photos it almost looks like somebody took a can of dark spray
paint and "fogged" a band about 1½" wide horizontally and vertically
along the joining edges of the mats.

A technical term perhaps, but it looks like ****!g

On 4/20/2016 1:43 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 4/19/2016 7:54 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
Daughter just tiled her kitchen back splash with ~ 12" matted squares
of rough
textured "stone faced" tiles. Individual pieces are ~ 3/4" by
anywhere from 1"
to 1½" in width and perhaps 3/8" - 1/2" thick.

Tile is a light tan color but the coloration varies. Nice looking and
all
would be well in the world if only the manufacturer had not inserted
darker
pieces in the border of each mat where it interlocks with the others.

Upon installation when step back and view it from a distance there is
a very
distinct vertical dark area as well as a horizontal one where the mats
butt
together.

It's bad enough that it has to be cured "in place" or removed
completely and
start with a fresh wall.

She has some extra sheets remaining and tells me

1) there is no way to remove lighter pieces from the field to insert
where the
darker ones exist in the boarder. (I have my doubts about this.
Perhaps not
easily removed/replaced, but I suspect where there's a will there's a
way)

Without a photo, I'm just guessing...

But, shall I assume these little tiles are adhered to a "mesh" (like a
really
coarse weave "burlap")? Is there visible space BETWEEN the tiles (the
equivalent of grout lines)? Or, are they tightly packed?

Paper mesh mat (unlike the nylon mesh one typically finds) and no space.
Tightly packed. The only way you could possibly grout between the
individual pieces would be to lay the surface flat and have a grout mix
the consistency of waterg



E.g., bathroom floor tile ages ago was "sheets" of small 1"x1", 1x2, 2x2
tiles
arranged in a seemingly "random" pattern. So, when you laid these sheets,
the floor looked like it had been pieced together one (variable size)
tile at
a time.

[Your comments suggest these aren't as "regular" in size/shape?]

Yes and no. They are uniform as to height (vertical dimension) and vary
slightly in horizontal dimension (but I don't believe it's totally
random, hence my thought to go in and look for field pieces that will
match the horizontal dimension of some of the offending darker pieces
along the seams/edges)


With that bathroom tile image in mind, you appear to be saying that all
the tiles on the edge (or *an* edge, same problem, different visual
aspect) are "dark". So, when you lay these sheets of seemingly
random little tiles together, the randomness illusion is shattered
by this periodic "dark stripe" -- every 12 inches, etc.

Some, but not all of the tiles on the edge are darker.


Instead of removing/replacing tiles, can you, instead, ELIMINATE tiles?
For example, instead of a square with dark borders, strategically cut
out a few tiles along an edge -- giving the "set" a more irregular shape.

Then, arrange to remove a complementary set of tiles on the OTHER edge
(i.e., the edge of the adjacent tile that would mate with this one)
so that the two sets fit together like "puzzle pieces" -- instead of
"nice, REGULAR squares?"

I think we're on the same page here. It WILL involve replacing/swapping
tiles from the field to the edge, something my daughter doesn't believe
possible. As I haven't seen it in person, I don't know for certain but
I think it can be done (with a good deal of work)

On Wed, 20 Apr 2016 02:26:58 -0600, Harry Calahan wrote:

By the time most women get done decorating a kitchen,
there's so much gobdamn knickknack clutter on the
counter tops that you can't see the back splash anyway.

Has my wife been visiting you?

Do you have the set of ceramic measuring spoons shaped like various fruits
of solanacea (tomato, eggplant, potato, pepper) on the wall, which you are
not supposed to use because there are already 3 different sets of such
spoons in the kitchen drawer?

For Each FOOD in [Potato, Avocado, Strawberry, Peanut, etc.]
Do you have the serving dish for FOOD shaped like a FOOD?
End

I'll bet that you don't have the porcelain rooster with the rough black
stomach and chalk pieces in his boots that you are expected to use to write
the grocery list on his stomach.

On 4/20/2016 8:41 AM, dpb wrote:
On 04/19/2016 9:54 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:

...saga elided for brevity...

Anyone have a better suggestion or wish to warn me off of attempting any
(or all) of the above solutions?

As a couple have said, the answer is probably "just live with it" as the
most likely solution but if it's really _that_ much of a distraction

If this were a binaries group, I'd have no problem posting a picture
which would reveal just how bad/glaring the effect is. Unfortunately,
the only photos I currently have would do little to give anyone a good
look at the actual pattern, up close, to assist in finding a solution.

before you do something too extreme I'd suggest contacting the
manufacturer for information regarding the specific tile pattern.
Probably this is a "feature" but perhaps there was an error either in
installation or (rarely, but not unheard of) manufacture.

I'm guessing I wasn't making it as clear as I thought I was. Understand
that the vertical "seams" are NOT straight, only the horizontal seams
are. The vertical seams are irregular, saw toothed, jagged or whatever
term you wish to use.

They can be butted together in one way only so that pretty much kills
the installation error theory. It may well be a "feature" but I'm hard
pressed to believe that was their intent, but who knows? Stranger
things have happened.

On Wednesday, April 20, 2016 at 9:42:30 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 04/19/2016 9:54 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:

...saga elided for brevity...

Anyone have a better suggestion or wish to warn me off of attempting any
(or all) of the above solutions?

As a couple have said, the answer is probably "just live with it" as the
most likely solution but if it's really _that_ much of a distraction
before you do something too extreme I'd suggest contacting the
manufacturer for information regarding the specific tile pattern.
Probably this is a "feature" but perhaps there was an error either in
installation or (rarely, but not unheard of) manufacture.

--




+1

I don't see any easy solution either. A lesson to be learned here, with
any installation like this, it's a good idea to lay some of the new product
out, like it would wind up being installed, to better see what it looks
like. Kind of like painting one wall, or at least a big part of a wall
as a test, not just relying on what a small test area looks like.

On Wed, 20 Apr 2016 09:07:48 -0500, Unquestionably Confused wrote:

If this were a binaries group, I'd have no problem posting a picture
which would reveal just how bad/glaring the effect is. Unfortunately,
the only photos I currently have would do little to give anyone a good
look at the actual pattern, up close, to assist in finding a solution.

No need to post pictures here, just load them to some photo sharing website and post just the address here. Then everyone can
see what the tiles look like. Here is a site that has a review of many photo sharing sites.

http://photo-sharing-websites.no1reviews.com/

On 04/20/2016 9:22 AM, trader_4 wrote:
....

+1

I don't see any easy solution either. A lesson to be learned here, with
any installation like this, it's a good idea to lay some of the new product
out, like it would wind up being installed, to better see what it looks
like. ...

+237

I'll wager the installation instructions that came with the product or
are available from the manufacturer's web site say precisely that...

Laid a _lot_ of tile for the uncle during college years as weekend work;
_always_ lay out new tile, "you never know" what you may discover either
as defect or as noted above, not appearing as expected from a sample...

--

On 04/20/2016 8:59 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
....

I think we're on the same page here. It WILL involve replacing/swapping
tiles from the field to the edge, something my daughter doesn't believe
possible. As I haven't seen it in person, I don't know for certain but I
think it can be done (with a good deal of work)

Possibly, but unless it's a quite limited number I'd guess the result
won't be worth the effort. If the sizes are exact-enough, likely the
ploy will be to break the offending dark one to get it out of the matrix
and then replace it but I think I'd plan on getting used to the pattern
as the practical solution.

--

On 4/20/2016 10:10 AM, dpb wrote:
On 04/20/2016 9:22 AM, trader_4 wrote:
...

+1

I don't see any easy solution either. A lesson to be learned here, with
any installation like this, it's a good idea to lay some of the new
product
out, like it would wind up being installed, to better see what it looks
like. ...

+237

I'll wager the installation instructions that came with the product or
are available from the manufacturer's web site say precisely that...

Laid a _lot_ of tile for the uncle during college years as weekend work;
_always_ lay out new tile, "you never know" what you may discover either
as defect or as noted above, not appearing as expected from a sample...


Agreed. This is one of life's little lessons that she learned the hard
way. Sometimes this is the very best way to teachg

In the meantime, rather than beat on her, I'm trying to figure out a way
to recover from her error and that's just as important.

On 4/20/2016 9:53 AM, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Wed, 20 Apr 2016 09:07:48 -0500, Unquestionably Confused wrote:

If this were a binaries group, I'd have no problem posting a picture
which would reveal just how bad/glaring the effect is. Unfortunately,
the only photos I currently have would do little to give anyone a good
look at the actual pattern, up close, to assist in finding a solution.

No need to post pictures here, just load them to some photo sharing website and post just the address here. Then everyone can
see what the tiles look like. Here is a site that has a review of many photo sharing sites.

http://photo-sharing-websites.no1reviews.com/



https://www.dropbox.com/s/7uv2utia4g..._6793.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/w5z85nox1w..._6794.jpg?dl=0

These illustrate the situation and also, if you consider them carefully,
show that it's either a design or manufacturing defect (or "feature" if
you're so inclined) rather than an installation error.

I'm thinking that when I get there in person and see the field tiles
remaining (on the spare sheets), I'll find some lighter ones that will
be the same size as the darker ones which are causing the problem.

Then again, rather than get hung up on just one solution, I go back to
the question of: If this is a man made product (don't know) and the
material was dyed, would a bit of muriatic acid (or anything else that
someone might suggest) offer a "bleaching" alternative, or. . .?

On 4/20/2016 10:18 AM, dpb wrote:
On 04/20/2016 8:59 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
...

I think we're on the same page here. It WILL involve replacing/swapping
tiles from the field to the edge, something my daughter doesn't believe
possible. As I haven't seen it in person, I don't know for certain but I
think it can be done (with a good deal of work)

Possibly, but unless it's a quite limited number I'd guess the result
won't be worth the effort. If the sizes are exact-enough, likely the
ploy will be to break the offending dark one to get it out of the matrix
and then replace it but I think I'd plan on getting used to the pattern
as the practical solution.

Multi-tool with a carbide blade and lots and lots of patience. Kids
will always provide a challenge to their parents, even into their 30's.
OTOH, they also provide us with grandchildren and that makes it all
worthwhileg

On 4/20/2016 6:59 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
E.g., bathroom floor tile ages ago was "sheets" of small 1"x1", 1x2, 2x2
tiles
arranged in a seemingly "random" pattern. So, when you laid these sheets,
the floor looked like it had been pieced together one (variable size)
tile at
a time.

[Your comments suggest these aren't as "regular" in size/shape?]

Yes and no. They are uniform as to height (vertical dimension) and vary

So, you could, possibly, "rip" each to form horizontal strips.
Then, stagger the strips (left to right) to shift portions of the
"darks" so they don't reinforce each other, visually?

For example:

XXXYYYZZZ
AABBBBBBC
DDDDDEEEE
FGGGHHHII

can become:

XXXYYYZZZ
AABBBBBBC

and

DDDDDEEEE
FGGGHHHII

which can then be shifted to yield:

XXXYYYZZZXXXYYYZZZ
AABBBBBBCAABBBBBBC
EEEDDDDDEEEEDDDDDE
HIIFGGGHHHIIFGGGHH

instead of:

XXXYYYZZZXXXYYYZZZ
AABBBBBBCAABBBBBBC
DDDDDEEEEDDDDDEEEE
FGGGHHHIIFGGGHHHII

slightly in horizontal dimension (but I don't believe it's totally random,
hence my thought to go in and look for field pieces that will match the
horizontal dimension of some of the offending darker pieces along the seams/edges)

With that bathroom tile image in mind, you appear to be saying that all
the tiles on the edge (or *an* edge, same problem, different visual
aspect) are "dark". So, when you lay these sheets of seemingly
random little tiles together, the randomness illusion is shattered
by this periodic "dark stripe" -- every 12 inches, etc.

Some, but not all of the tiles on the edge are darker.

Understood. Enough that they're similarity reinforce each other, visually.

You can't rotate the set 90 degrees as the individual tiles wouldn't be
oriented correctly (standing on end). But, can you rotate 180 degrees
without introducing a visible artifact?

Instead of removing/replacing tiles, can you, instead, ELIMINATE tiles?
For example, instead of a square with dark borders, strategically cut
out a few tiles along an edge -- giving the "set" a more irregular shape.

Then, arrange to remove a complementary set of tiles on the OTHER edge
(i.e., the edge of the adjacent tile that would mate with this one)
so that the two sets fit together like "puzzle pieces" -- instead of
"nice, REGULAR squares?"

I think we're on the same page here. It WILL involve replacing/swapping tiles
from the field to the edge, something my daughter doesn't believe possible. As

My approach just selectively removes tiles along the edges -- in the hope
that the tiles REMAINING on the opposite edge "just so happen" to fit
into those voids. This is probably tougher to achieve than selecting
(and swapping) individual tiles from ANYWHERE.

I haven't seen it in person, I don't know for certain but I think it can be
done (with a good deal of work)

The "tight fit" aspect might make it impractical to achieve -- without it
looking like it was pieced together.

Ask for a photo of one. Then, of a couple (so you can determine if they
are all identical; or, if there are some number of variations).

As they are square, they obviously expect some regularity in the pattern
(because they always "end" with a straight edge).

On 4/20/2016 1:26 AM, Harry Calahan wrote:
By the time most women get done decorating a kitchen, there's so much gobdamn
knickknack clutter on the counter tops that you can't see the back splash anyway.

Wow! Here, SWMBO wants/expects the counters to be free of EVERYTHING!
"They're for food prep, not junk storage!"

I can't even leave a container of tea "out" despite using it every
hour or two!

On 4/20/2016 7:07 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 4/20/2016 8:41 AM, dpb wrote:
On 04/19/2016 9:54 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:

...saga elided for brevity...

Anyone have a better suggestion or wish to warn me off of attempting any
(or all) of the above solutions?

As a couple have said, the answer is probably "just live with it" as the
most likely solution but if it's really _that_ much of a distraction

If this were a binaries group, I'd have no problem posting a picture which
would reveal just how bad/glaring the effect is. Unfortunately, the only
photos I currently have would do little to give anyone a good look at the
actual pattern, up close, to assist in finding a solution.

Post a photo (on a file sharing site) so folks can, at least, see
the overall *effect*.

Of course, what others have to say about "your" (her) kitchen doesn't matter.
*You* (she) are the one who will be living with it!

before you do something too extreme I'd suggest contacting the
manufacturer for information regarding the specific tile pattern.
Probably this is a "feature" but perhaps there was an error either in
installation or (rarely, but not unheard of) manufacture.

I'm guessing I wasn't making it as clear as I thought I was. Understand that
the vertical "seams" are NOT straight, only the horizontal seams are. The
vertical seams are irregular, saw toothed, jagged or whatever term you wish to
use.

Ah! I'd assumed it was square and was advocating MAKING it irregular.
(but, the same approach remains valid)

They can be butted together in one way only so that pretty much kills the
installation error theory. It may well be a "feature" but I'm hard pressed to
believe that was their intent, but who knows? Stranger things have happened.

Brain *loves* to find patterns. After all, that is it's primary purpose
("recognize" something so it can react to that knowledge).

You can make it harder to notice patterns by having SEVERAL patterns
and alternating between them (I think there are 12 or 16 different
"appearances" to our floor tile -- so, how you lay them determines
the nature of any patterns that YOU create).

Or, by having something that is overly "busy" to confound the senses.

Or, by increasing the size (reducing the spatial frequency) of the
pattern so it's spread over larger distances and less likely to
be captured in a glance... EVERY glance.

On 4/20/2016 8:29 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 4/20/2016 9:53 AM, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Wed, 20 Apr 2016 09:07:48 -0500, Unquestionably Confused
wrote:

If this were a binaries group, I'd have no problem posting a picture
which would reveal just how bad/glaring the effect is. Unfortunately,
the only photos I currently have would do little to give anyone a good
look at the actual pattern, up close, to assist in finding a solution.

No need to post pictures here, just load them to some photo sharing website
and post just the address here. Then everyone can
see what the tiles look like. Here is a site that has a review of many photo
sharing sites.

http://photo-sharing-websites.no1reviews.com/



https://www.dropbox.com/s/7uv2utia4g..._6793.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/w5z85nox1w..._6794.jpg?dl=0

Wow! That *is* very noticeable!

These illustrate the situation and also, if you consider them carefully, show
that it's either a design or manufacturing defect (or "feature" if you're so
inclined) rather than an installation error.

Yes. Someone deliberately made sure that they would fit together
to visually reinforce that coloration. I'd previously assumed it was
just "an unhappy coincidence" owing to the small size of the sets
(easier for a pattern to appear over a short distance).

So, consider that it might be deliberate. In fact, the top edge
also appears to be darker. I.e., if she had done an entire wall
with this, it might look like 12" SQUARE BLOCKS stacked in
courses?

I'm thinking that when I get there in person and see the field tiles remaining
(on the spare sheets), I'll find some lighter ones that will be the same size
as the darker ones which are causing the problem.

But, the tile is already installed. hard to imagine you can remove
individual "pieces" and fit (tightly) selected replacements in their
places. You'd have to replace a sizeable fraction of the darks
to tamp out the effect!

Then again, rather than get hung up on just one solution, I go back to the
question of: If this is a man made product (don't know) and the material was
dyed, would a bit of muriatic acid (or anything else that someone might
suggest) offer a "bleaching" alternative, or. . .?

Understood. You're really hoping for a solution that you can impose
AFTER the installation has been completed.

[Pretty kitchen, though!]

On 04/20/2016 10:29 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
....

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7uv2utia4g..._6793.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/w5z85nox1w..._6794.jpg?dl=0

These illustrate the situation and also, if you consider them carefully,
show that it's either a design or manufacturing defect (or "feature" if
you're so inclined) rather than an installation error.

I'm wondering why they didn't stop after the first two or three sections
and ask the manufacturer if this is the intended effect--had to have
shown up immediately.

I'm thinking that when I get there in person and see the field tiles
remaining (on the spare sheets), I'll find some lighter ones that will
be the same size as the darker ones which are causing the problem.

I'd agree w/ Don Y here--while it may be theoretically feasible unless
you've got _way_ too much time on your hands the sheer number of pieces
you'll have to replace to eliminate the effect is, I think, going to
make it essentially impossible simply owing to that time required even
if it works on an individual basis to fit in another.

Then again, rather than get hung up on just one solution, I go back to
the question of: If this is a man made product (don't know) and the
material was dyed, would a bit of muriatic acid (or anything else that
someone might suggest) offer a "bleaching" alternative, or. . .?

I'm sure it was colored before it was fired, yes. You can try but I'd
strongly recommend learning what it actually is, first. Obviously, try
whatever you do on tiles of the product not installed first.

Have you contacted the manufacturer w/ the picture and asked if this is
the expected outcome just to be certain? While as said, looks like it
was deliberate, there is always the potential for a production error and
quality control slip-up that let defective product out. You just
_might_ get some relief if that were so.

Also, as Don Y points out, what's the cause of the top 5-6" color
difference that seems overall darker than the rest?

--

On 04/20/2016 10:19 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
....

In the meantime, rather than beat on her, I'm trying to figure out a way
to recover from her error and that's just as important.

See other notes; won't repeat here...

--

On Wednesday, April 20, 2016 at 1:15:49 PM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 04/20/2016 10:29 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7uv2utia4g..._6793.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/w5z85nox1w..._6794.jpg?dl=0

These illustrate the situation and also, if you consider them carefully,
show that it's either a design or manufacturing defect (or "feature" if
you're so inclined) rather than an installation error.

I'm wondering why they didn't stop after the first two or three sections
and ask the manufacturer if this is the intended effect--had to have
shown up immediately.


+1

What's also weird is that it looks like there is a whole section at the
top, extending down about 5", that goes across the whole room, right
below the cabinets, that's the same darker color? If these are in sheets,
how did that come to be? Or is it a shadow I'm seeing?

It certainly looks bad to me. If the product was bought in a store,
he could go back and check some from another lot, if they have it.
And I'd definitely contact the manufacturer. I'm also surprised that
a competent installer would not have stopped, like you say, after the
first ones were put up, make sure the client was OK with it. It sure
doesn't look normal or like anything I've seen.

On 4/20/2016 8:19 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
Agreed. This is one of life's little lessons that she learned the hard way.
Sometimes this is the very best way to teachg

IME, it is the approach that yields the most *memorable* lessons.

In the meantime, rather than beat on her, I'm trying to figure out a way to
recover from her error and that's just as important.

How much is it "worth" to you/her to fix it?

For example, would she consider REMOVING it all and finding an alternative
"wall treatment"? Perhaps still "tile" but some other product/pattern?

A neighbor installed an exterior light above his garage. He instinctively
positioned it directly under the roof peak (gable end).

I bumped into him as he was finishing up and pointed out that the
peak wasn't centered over the garage door or driveway. So, the
light fixture was considerably off-center. And, as a result, the
light distribution wasn't what he had originally intended.

He regularly laments this decision as he sees it each time he
pulls into the garage. Yet, the "cost" (inconvenience?) of having
to remove and relocate the fixture has been an effective deterrent
for many years, now!

Your daughter might similarly see the idea of tearing up the
(now completed?) kitchen to "fix" the problem as enough of a
reason to "learn to live with it".

Said another way, *if* she is willing to go to that extreme,
then that's a strong indication of how displeased she is with
the current result!

[Expressing choices in such stark terms often helps folks
rationalize their own feelings]

Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 4/20/2016 10:18 AM, dpb wrote:
On 04/20/2016 8:59 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
...

I think we're on the same page here. It WILL involve
replacing/swapping tiles from the field to the edge, something my
daughter doesn't believe possible. As I haven't seen it in person,
I don't know for certain but I think it can be done (with a good
deal of work)

Possibly, but unless it's a quite limited number I'd guess the result
won't be worth the effort. If the sizes are exact-enough, likely the
ploy will be to break the offending dark one to get it out of the
matrix and then replace it but I think I'd plan on getting used to
the pattern as the practical solution.

Multi-tool with a carbide blade and lots and lots of patience. Kids
will always provide a challenge to their parents, even into their
30's. OTOH, they also provide us with grandchildren and that makes
it all worthwhileg

You said they were afixed to a paper mat. If that is the case, you should be
able to bend them toward the mat and simply cut the paper with a knife. Or
even cut the paper without bending.

On 04/20/2016 12:46 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 4/20/2016 8:19 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
Agreed. This is one of life's little lessons that she learned the hard
way.
Sometimes this is the very best way to teachg

IME, it is the approach that yields the most *memorable* lessons.
....

"Good judgement comes from experience, [whereas] experience comes from
bad judgement." -- Mark Twain

--

On 4/20/2016 11:06 AM, dadiOH wrote:
Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 4/20/2016 10:18 AM, dpb wrote:
On 04/20/2016 8:59 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
...

I think we're on the same page here. It WILL involve
replacing/swapping tiles from the field to the edge, something my
daughter doesn't believe possible. As I haven't seen it in person,
I don't know for certain but I think it can be done (with a good
deal of work)

Possibly, but unless it's a quite limited number I'd guess the result
won't be worth the effort. If the sizes are exact-enough, likely the
ploy will be to break the offending dark one to get it out of the
matrix and then replace it but I think I'd plan on getting used to
the pattern as the practical solution.

Multi-tool with a carbide blade and lots and lots of patience. Kids
will always provide a challenge to their parents, even into their
30's. OTOH, they also provide us with grandchildren and that makes
it all worthwhileg

You said they were afixed to a paper mat. If that is the case, you should be
able to bend them toward the mat and simply cut the paper with a knife. Or
even cut the paper without bending.

That would work for obtaining the *replacement* tiles from the yet-unused
mats. But, would be inappropriate for removing the tiles (portions thereof)
that are already affixed to the wall!

Hence the appeal of an acid wash, stain, etc. (alter the appearance IN PLACE)

Unquestionably Confused wrote:

Then again, rather than get hung up on just one solution, I go back to
the question of: If this is a man made product (don't know) and the
material was dyed, would a bit of muriatic acid (or anything else that
someone might suggest) offer a "bleaching" alternative, or. . .?

Acid will eat them but not bleach them. "Eating" might work if the tile
surface was superficially colored in some way bu,t from what you have said,
I doubt that.

On 4/20/2016 11:07 AM, dpb wrote:
On 04/20/2016 12:46 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 4/20/2016 8:19 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
Agreed. This is one of life's little lessons that she learned the hard
way.
Sometimes this is the very best way to teachg

IME, it is the approach that yields the most *memorable* lessons.
....

"Good judgement comes from experience, [whereas] experience comes from bad
judgement." -- Mark Twain

Notable!

I see it much more common for folks to remember failures (esp when
they have associated COSTS/losses) than successes.

I often hear anecdotes of people RE-discovering things that
yielded pleasant results (i.e., as if they had somehow forgotten
PRIOR to the rediscovery -- "Gee, I forgot how GOOD this tasted!").
But, seldom hear of folks "rediscovering" the same mistake -- once
is usually enough!

On Wednesday, April 20, 2016 at 2:09:51 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:


Hence the appeal of an acid wash, stain, etc. (alter the appearance IN PLACE)

Sounds like a good way to make what's already a big problem worse.
AFAIK you can't acid wash or stain tiles. They are fired, hard
ceramic, aren't they?

On 4/20/2016 1:06 PM, dadiOH wrote:
Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 4/20/2016 10:18 AM, dpb wrote:
On 04/20/2016 8:59 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
...

I think we're on the same page here. It WILL involve
replacing/swapping tiles from the field to the edge, something my
daughter doesn't believe possible. As I haven't seen it in person,
I don't know for certain but I think it can be done (with a good
deal of work)

Possibly, but unless it's a quite limited number I'd guess the result
won't be worth the effort. If the sizes are exact-enough, likely the
ploy will be to break the offending dark one to get it out of the
matrix and then replace it but I think I'd plan on getting used to
the pattern as the practical solution.

Multi-tool with a carbide blade and lots and lots of patience. Kids
will always provide a challenge to their parents, even into their
30's. OTOH, they also provide us with grandchildren and that makes
it all worthwhileg

You said they were afixed to a paper mat. If that is the case, you should be
able to bend them toward the mat and simply cut the paper with a knife. Or
even cut the paper without bending.


Sure, I can do that in my sleep with the spare sheets which will become
the source for the replacements. Not so much with the thin set the
"problem children" are embedded in.g

On 4/20/2016 1:58 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, April 20, 2016 at 2:09:51 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:


Hence the appeal of an acid wash, stain, etc. (alter the appearance IN PLACE)

Sounds like a good way to make what's already a big problem worse.
AFAIK you can't acid wash or stain tiles. They are fired, hard
ceramic, aren't they?


Nope, open and porous finish. Not glazed or sealed (AFAIK) At least she
didn't seal them right awayg

I plan to test whatever acid/bleach, dye, etc. on the extras

On 4/20/2016 12:14 PM, dpb wrote:
On 04/20/2016 10:29 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
...


snip


I'm sure it was colored before it was fired, yes. You can try but I'd
strongly recommend learning what it actually is, first. Obviously, try
whatever you do on tiles of the product not installed first.

Have you contacted the manufacturer w/ the picture and asked if this is
the expected outcome just to be certain? While as said, looks like it
was deliberate, there is always the potential for a production error and
quality control slip-up that let defective product out. You just
_might_ get some relief if that were so.

Also, as Don Y points out, what's the cause of the top 5-6" color
difference that seems overall darker than the rest?

It's probably illusory. There are quartz puck lights (installed by
yours truly) on the cabinet bottoms, just back from the lower face frame
rail.

On 4/20/2016 1:10 PM, dadiOH wrote:
Unquestionably Confused wrote:

Then again, rather than get hung up on just one solution, I go back to
the question of: If this is a man made product (don't know) and the
material was dyed, would a bit of muriatic acid (or anything else that
someone might suggest) offer a "bleaching" alternative, or. . .?

Acid will eat them but not bleach them. "Eating" might work if the tile
surface was superficially colored in some way bu,t from what you have said,
I doubt that.


Beats me. I was 1500 miles west of her when she did it. Same distance
when she realized what she was stuck with. I got off the plane at
6:00PM last night and haven't driven the 60 miles to see it in person,
nor will I for a few days to a week.

It didn't take her but a bit to do it, but it's gonna take a lot longer
to correct it - if it can be.

Any solution proposed will be test run on surplus pieces so eventually
she (and I) will learn what, if anything, will work.

On 04/20/2016 5:15 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 4/20/2016 12:14 PM, dpb wrote:
....

Also, as Don Y points out, what's the cause of the top 5-6" color
difference that seems overall darker than the rest?

It's probably illusory. There are quartz puck lights (installed by yours
truly) on the cabinet bottoms, just back from the lower face frame rail.

I considered that and it is, of course, impossible to tell for certain
from just the pictures, but it surely looks to be along a seam to me and
doesn't seem that different along the run despite the lights...

But, that's judging _just_ from appearance certainly, which certainly
isn't definitive. Would be interesting to hear what it looks like in
the flesh (so to speak).

--

On 04/20/2016 12:22 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 4/20/2016 1:26 AM, Harry Calahan wrote:
By the time most women get done decorating a kitchen, there's so much gobdamn
knickknack clutter on the counter tops that you can't see the back splash anyway.

Wow! Here, SWMBO wants/expects the counters to be free of EVERYTHING!
"They're for food prep, not junk storage!"

I can't even leave a container of tea "out" despite using it every
hour or two!

No clutter? Seriously?

You are a very lucky man! I'm jealous!

On 4/20/2016 4:41 PM, Eduardo wrote:
On 04/20/2016 12:22 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 4/20/2016 1:26 AM, Harry Calahan wrote:
By the time most women get done decorating a kitchen, there's so much gobdamn
knickknack clutter on the counter tops that you can't see the back splash
anyway.

Wow! Here, SWMBO wants/expects the counters to be free of EVERYTHING!
"They're for food prep, not junk storage!"

I can't even leave a container of tea "out" despite using it every
hour or two!

No clutter? Seriously?

You are a very lucky man! I'm jealous!

We have amusingly different ideas as to what constitutes clutter and
where it is tolerated.

She likes the kitchen counter *clear*. My container of tea routinely gets
"put away" -- meaning I have to go retrieve it at least once a day
(despite using it 7 or 8 times EACH day).

She likewise gets upset to find a 5 ft LCD TV lying on the living room
floor (where *else* can I get that much clear workspace?).

OTOH, *I* consider the various bits of electronics around the house
(DVD players, TV's, stereos, doorbells, cordless phones, etc.) to be
"clutter" and will go out of my way to make them disappear (by building
them *into* walls, ceilings, etc.). Though my office/workspace is
filled with equipment -- which spills over into bedrooms, etc.
(but not "living" areas).

And, her "art studio" makes my office space look HIGHLY ORGANIZED
(hint: it is NOT!)

She'll object to my leaving a (my) "chore list" (i.e., a scrap of paper!)
in the center console of the car -- but, won't hesitate to put her
sunglasses, sunscreen, bugspray and several little containers of snacks,
there. (is there some reason you can't put the sunscreen on BEFORE
heading out? and "store" it in the BATHROOM instead of the car??)

shrug Something about Mars and Venus...

On 4/20/2016 9:07 AM, Mike Duffy wrote:
On Wed, 20 Apr 2016 02:26:58 -0600, Harry Calahan wrote:

By the time most women get done decorating a kitchen,
there's so much gobdamn knickknack clutter on the
counter tops that you can't see the back splash anyway.

Has my wife been visiting you?

Do you have the set of ceramic measuring spoons shaped like various fruits
of solanacea (tomato, eggplant, potato, pepper) on the wall, which you are
not supposed to use because there are already 3 different sets of such
spoons in the kitchen drawer?

For Each FOOD in [Potato, Avocado, Strawberry, Peanut, etc.]
Do you have the serving dish for FOOD shaped like a FOOD?
End

I'll bet that you don't have the porcelain rooster with the rough black
stomach and chalk pieces in his boots that you are expected to use to write
the grocery list on his stomach.


We have a turkey platter that has a turkey molded into it. Does that count?

--
Maggie

On Wed, 20 Apr 2016 22:27:50 -0500, Muggles wrote:

We have a turkey platter that has a turkey molded into it. Does that count?

Sure. And the milk pitcher shaped like a cartoon cow, the juice pitcher
shaped like a pineapple, the honey jar shaped like a beehive, the ice cream
dishes shaped like waffle cones, the cheese dish shaped like a cheese wheel
with a wedge removed, and the parmesan shaker shaped like a mouse.

--
http://mduffy.x10host.com/index.htm

On Thu, 21 Apr 2016 00:29:31 -0400, Mike Duffy
wrote:
We have a turkey platter that has a turkey molded
into it. Does that count?


Sure. And the milk pitcher shaped like a cartoon cow,
the juice pitcher shaped like a pineapple, the honey
jar shaped like a beehive, the ice cream dishes
shaped like waffle cones, the cheese dish shaped
like a cheese wheel with a wedge removed, and the
parmesan shaker shaped like a mouse.

I thought I had the honey beehive jar, but it's just the plastic bee
shaped squeeze container. Everything else is just ordinary dishes. I
guess I'm more practical than trendy when it comes to dishes.

--
Maggie