I can't seem to get this right. : Can't put it on the
roof with the other sensors as the deliberate exposure that
the roof affords those others interferes with the accuracy
of the temperature reported.

And, mounting it on the back porch ("up" out of the way)
shades it from direct sunlight but "keeps it warm" in the
colder weather due to heat trapped by the roof of the porch
(the same roof that *shades* it from the Sun).

So, it seems like the trick is to find shade without an
"overhead covering"? (contradiction in terms??)

I'll try the porch -- but much closer to the ground (farther
from the heat-trapping ceiling)?

On Sunday, December 27, 2015 at 9:24:09 AM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
I can't seem to get this right. : Can't put it on the
roof with the other sensors as the deliberate exposure that
the roof affords those others interferes with the accuracy
of the temperature reported.

And, mounting it on the back porch ("up" out of the way)
shades it from direct sunlight but "keeps it warm" in the
colder weather due to heat trapped by the roof of the porch
(the same roof that *shades* it from the Sun).

So, it seems like the trick is to find shade without an
"overhead covering"? (contradiction in terms??)

I'll try the porch -- but much closer to the ground (farther
from the heat-trapping ceiling)?

North side of the house? Works for me.

I have two. One outside an east-side window
and one outside a west-side window. Except for
brief period around lunchtime there's always one
in the shade. I should acknowledge, though, that
I'm not a stickler. This morning it was low 40s.
41? 43? I don't really care. I just want an idea of
what to expect when I go out.

On 12/27/2015 7:39 AM, Mayayana wrote:
I have two. One outside an east-side window
and one outside a west-side window. Except for
brief period around lunchtime there's always one
in the shade. I should acknowledge, though, that
I'm not a stickler. This morning it was low 40s.
41? 43? I don't really care. I just want an idea of
what to expect when I go out.

I'm not interested in personal comfort as much
as having "real data" for the HVAC system and
to know whether the citrus trees are in jeopardy.

E.g., Mandarins get upset at 32 (not 30 or 34)
but Navels will tolerate 28 (but not 26). The
mechanisms used to protect them usually only afford
a couple (3 or 4?) degrees of added protection -- but,
only when you *know* they need to be used.

I also can't understand why it always gets *colder*
as the Sun is rising!

On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 07:49:30 -0700
Don Y wrote:

I also can't understand why it always gets *colder*
as the Sun is rising!

Then stop playing weather person.

On 12/27/2015 9:49 AM, Don Y wrote:

I also can't understand why it always gets *colder*
as the Sun is rising!


All objects gain heat from outside sources and radiate it away at the
same time. When more radiant heat is lost than gained, the object cools.
When more heat is gained than lost, it warms. If they are balanced, the
temperature remains constant. Okay… that’s pretty basic. Between sunset
and sunrise, the Earth’s surface gathers no solar energy but continues
to radiate away its stored heat. During the night, the surface also
loses radiant heat faster than it steals heat from other sources, and
thus its temperature, and that of the air in contact with it, drops
steadily. At dawn, when the first light beams across the landscape, the
incoming solar radiation is very weak. It does not yet have enough
strength to counter all the heat escaping from the surface. As a result,
the surface continues to lose heat for some time following sunrise, and
the air temperature continues to fall. At some point, the solar rays
shine strongly enough to counter the heat loss. The gain-loss balance is
shifted, and the air finally begins to warm up. As a rule of thumb: the
coldest temperature is about an hour after sunrise.

Reference
https://www.physicsforums.com/thread...unrise.756343/

On 12/27/2015 8:11 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 12/27/2015 9:49 AM, Don Y wrote:

I also can't understand why it always gets *colder*
as the Sun is rising!


All objects gain heat from outside sources and radiate it away at the same
time. When more radiant heat is lost than gained, the object cools. When more
heat is gained than lost, it warms. If they are balanced, the temperature
remains constant. Okay… that’s pretty basic. Between sunset and sunrise, the
Earth’s surface gathers no solar energy but continues to radiate away its
stored heat. During the night, the surface also loses radiant heat faster than
it steals heat from other sources, and thus its temperature, and that of the
air in contact with it, drops steadily. At dawn, when the first light beams
across the landscape, the incoming solar radiation is very weak. It does not
yet have enough strength to counter all the heat escaping from the surface. As
a result, the surface continues to lose heat for some time following sunrise,
and the air temperature continues to fall. At some point, the solar rays shine
strongly enough to counter the heat loss. The gain-loss balance is shifted, and
the air finally begins to warm up. As a rule of thumb: the coldest temperature
is about an hour after sunrise.

Reference
https://www.physicsforums.com/thread...unrise.756343/

But that doesn't explain why it gets *colder*.

I.e., temperature falls through the evening and STABILIZES in the wee
hours of the morning. And *stays* that way -- for HOURS! Until just as
the sun rises. *Then*, it starts downward!

On 12/27/2015 9:18 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 12/27/2015 8:11 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 12/27/2015 9:49 AM, Don Y wrote:

I also can't understand why it always gets *colder*
as the Sun is rising!


All objects gain heat from outside sources and radiate it away at the
same
time. When more radiant heat is lost than gained, the object cools.
When more
heat is gained than lost, it warms. If they are balanced, the temperature
remains constant. Okay… that’s pretty basic. Between sunset and
sunrise, the
Earth’s surface gathers no solar energy but continues to radiate away its
stored heat. During the night, the surface also loses radiant heat
faster than
it steals heat from other sources, and thus its temperature, and that
of the
air in contact with it, drops steadily. At dawn, when the first light
beams
across the landscape, the incoming solar radiation is very weak. It
does not
yet have enough strength to counter all the heat escaping from the
surface. As
a result, the surface continues to lose heat for some time following
sunrise,
and the air temperature continues to fall. At some point, the solar
rays shine
strongly enough to counter the heat loss. The gain-loss balance is
shifted, and
the air finally begins to warm up. As a rule of thumb: the coldest
temperature
is about an hour after sunrise.

Reference
https://www.physicsforums.com/thread...unrise.756343/


But that doesn't explain why it gets *colder*.

I.e., temperature falls through the evening and STABILIZES in the wee
hours of the morning. And *stays* that way -- for HOURS! Until just as
the sun rises. *Then*, it starts downward!

Air mass also is _not_ stagnant; all of the other local and regional
effects are going on at the same time. If there's a consistent pattern
of such (and I seriously doubt it is _every_ day), there's some other
effects locally going on causing morning air currents or whatever....It
might even in a local location be owing to other non-meterological
causes such as perhaps there's a large industrial operation which starts
operation and a heat exchanger or somesuch at that time...

No way to say specifically w/o much more information.

--

"Don Y"
Reference
https://www.physicsforums.com/thread...unrise.756343/

But that doesn't explain why it gets *colder*.

I.e., temperature falls through the evening and STABILIZES
in the wee
hours of the morning. And *stays* that way -- for HOURS!
Until just as
the sun rises. *Then*, it starts downward!

As the morning dew evaporates it absorbs a lot of heat,
that's
why it is cooler. Simple as that ... no brainer...
phil k

On 12/27/2015 8:49 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 12/27/2015 7:39 AM, Mayayana wrote:
I have two. One outside an east-side window
and one outside a west-side window. Except for
brief period around lunchtime there's always one
in the shade. I should acknowledge, though, that
I'm not a stickler. This morning it was low 40s.
41? 43? I don't really care. I just want an idea of
what to expect when I go out.

I'm not interested in personal comfort as much
as having "real data" for the HVAC system and
to know whether the citrus trees are in jeopardy.

E.g., Mandarins get upset at 32 (not 30 or 34)
but Navels will tolerate 28 (but not 26). The
mechanisms used to protect them usually only afford
a couple (3 or 4?) degrees of added protection -- but,
only when you *know* they need to be used.

I also can't understand why it always gets *colder*
as the Sun is rising!


You could put them on your trees that you want to keep track of temps
around them.

--
Maggie

Muggles wrote:
On 12/27/2015 8:49 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 12/27/2015 7:39 AM, Mayayana wrote:
I have two. One outside an east-side window
and one outside a west-side window. Except for
brief period around lunchtime there's always one
in the shade. I should acknowledge, though, that
I'm not a stickler. This morning it was low 40s.
41? 43? I don't really care. I just want an idea of
what to expect when I go out.

I'm not interested in personal comfort as much
as having "real data" for the HVAC system and
to know whether the citrus trees are in jeopardy.

E.g., Mandarins get upset at 32 (not 30 or 34)
but Navels will tolerate 28 (but not 26). The
mechanisms used to protect them usually only afford
a couple (3 or 4?) degrees of added protection -- but,
only when you *know* they need to be used.

I also can't understand why it always gets *colder*
as the Sun is rising!


You could put them on your trees that you want to keep track of temps
around them.

MY Davis weather station is on a ~10 feet pole in the front yard, one
thermometer inside the screened patio hanging from the ceiling. Indoor
has thermostat one.

On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 07:49:30 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 12/27/2015 7:39 AM, Mayayana wrote:
I have two. One outside an east-side window
and one outside a west-side window. Except for
brief period around lunchtime there's always one
in the shade. I should acknowledge, though, that
I'm not a stickler. This morning it was low 40s.
41? 43? I don't really care. I just want an idea of
what to expect when I go out.

I'm not interested in personal comfort as much
as having "real data" for the HVAC system and
to know whether the citrus trees are in jeopardy.

E.g., Mandarins get upset at 32 (not 30 or 34)
but Navels will tolerate 28 (but not 26). The
mechanisms used to protect them usually only afford
a couple (3 or 4?) degrees of added protection -- but,
only when you *know* they need to be used.


In that case you need the sensors at the trees.

On 12/27/2015 10:49 AM, Vic Smith wrote:
On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 07:49:30 -0700, Don Y

I'm not interested in personal comfort as much
as having "real data" for the HVAC system and
to know whether the citrus trees are in jeopardy.

E.g., Mandarins get upset at 32 (not 30 or 34)
but Navels will tolerate 28 (but not 26). The
mechanisms used to protect them usually only afford
a couple (3 or 4?) degrees of added protection -- but,
only when you *know* they need to be used.

In that case you need the sensors at the trees.

Trees are within 10-20 feet of the house. So, there's
likely no difference in temperatures there vs here
IN THE ABSENCE OF MAN-MADE INFLUENCES.

Locating them at/in the trees would expose them to the
daytime sun.

For example, I was outside a few minutes ago checking the
fruit. I moved a thermometer (not a wired sensor) from
it's location on the porch out into the yard -- 12 feet
away. In the time it took for me to walk to three of
the trees and back, the registered temperature had
climbed from 51F to 72F. (I'm *sure* the air temperature
hadn't changed that much! : )

Nearby weather reporting sites range from ~47F to ~57F.
The closest to my location (unsure of its relative elevation)
reports 50F -- which is in line with my 51.

[My 51 is usually high due to its location in a "heat trap"]

"Don Y" wrote in message ...
On 12/27/2015 10:49 AM, Vic Smith wrote:
On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 07:49:30 -0700, Don Y

I'm not interested in personal comfort as much
as having "real data" for the HVAC system and
to know whether the citrus trees are in jeopardy.

E.g., Mandarins get upset at 32 (not 30 or 34)
but Navels will tolerate 28 (but not 26). The
mechanisms used to protect them usually only afford
a couple (3 or 4?) degrees of added protection -- but,
only when you *know* they need to be used.

In that case you need the sensors at the trees.

Trees are within 10-20 feet of the house. So, there's
likely no difference in temperatures there vs here
IN THE ABSENCE OF MAN-MADE INFLUENCES.

Locating them at/in the trees would expose them to the
daytime sun.

For example, I was outside a few minutes ago checking the
fruit. I moved a thermometer (not a wired sensor) from
it's location on the porch out into the yard -- 12 feet
away. In the time it took for me to walk to three of
the trees and back, the registered temperature had
climbed from 51F to 72F. (I'm *sure* the air temperature
hadn't changed that much! : )

Nearby weather reporting sites range from ~47F to ~57F.
The closest to my location (unsure of its relative elevation)
reports 50F -- which is in line with my 51.

[My 51 is usually high due to its location in a "heat trap"]

I was interested in the temp difference at various roof vents once when installing an attic fan. Went to the dollar store and picked out 12 that were reading the same in the store and set them outside of the vents so I could read them from the ground. Then checked them with binoculars ever couple of hours. This was on a hot summer day and all were in the shade of the eaves. I didn't see more than a couple of degrees difference between the sunny & shady sides of the house.

On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 14:33:56 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 12/27/2015 10:49 AM, Vic Smith wrote:
On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 07:49:30 -0700, Don Y

I'm not interested in personal comfort as much
as having "real data" for the HVAC system and
to know whether the citrus trees are in jeopardy.

E.g., Mandarins get upset at 32 (not 30 or 34)
but Navels will tolerate 28 (but not 26). The
mechanisms used to protect them usually only afford
a couple (3 or 4?) degrees of added protection -- but,
only when you *know* they need to be used.

In that case you need the sensors at the trees.

Trees are within 10-20 feet of the house. So, there's
likely no difference in temperatures there vs here
IN THE ABSENCE OF MAN-MADE INFLUENCES.

Locating them at/in the trees would expose them to the
daytime sun.

Not if you put a little awning over them.

IIUC white on the top and black on the bottom, but any color will do
most of it.

The only diff. between the shady side of the house and the sunny side
is the shade!!

For example, I was outside a few minutes ago checking the
fruit. I moved a thermometer (not a wired sensor) from
it's location on the porch out into the yard -- 12 feet
away. In the time it took for me to walk to three of
the trees and back, the registered temperature had
climbed from 51F to 72F. (I'm *sure* the air temperature
hadn't changed that much! : )

Nearby weather reporting sites range from ~47F to ~57F.
The closest to my location (unsure of its relative elevation)
reports 50F -- which is in line with my 51.

[My 51 is usually high due to its location in a "heat trap"]

"Don Y" wrote in message ...
On 12/27/2015 7:39 AM, Mayayana wrote:
I have two. One outside an east-side window
and one outside a west-side window. Except for
brief period around lunchtime there's always one
in the shade. I should acknowledge, though, that
I'm not a stickler. This morning it was low 40s.
41? 43? I don't really care. I just want an idea of
what to expect when I go out.

I'm not interested in personal comfort as much
as having "real data" for the HVAC system and
to know whether the citrus trees are in jeopardy.

Put one sensor on the inlet to the HVAC, and another one under a citrus tree. If you're worried about the sun affecting it, add something like an umbrella.

E.g., Mandarins get upset at 32 (not 30 or 34)
but Navels will tolerate 28 (but not 26). The
mechanisms used to protect them usually only afford
a couple (3 or 4?) degrees of added protection -- but,
only when you *know* they need to be used.

I also can't understand why it always gets *colder*
as the Sun is rising!

On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 07:49:30 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 12/27/2015 7:39 AM, Mayayana wrote:
I have two. One outside an east-side window
and one outside a west-side window. Except for
brief period around lunchtime there's always one
in the shade. I should acknowledge, though, that
I'm not a stickler. This morning it was low 40s.
41? 43? I don't really care. I just want an idea of
what to expect when I go out.

I'm not interested in personal comfort as much
as having "real data" for the HVAC system and
to know whether the citrus trees are in jeopardy.

E.g., Mandarins get upset at 32 (not 30 or 34)
but Navels will tolerate 28 (but not 26). The
mechanisms used to protect them usually only afford
a couple (3 or 4?) degrees of added protection -- but,
only when you *know* they need to be used.

I also can't understand why it always gets *colder*
as the Sun is rising!
"it is always darker just before dawn"
Any residual heat has run out and the heat of the sun has not yet
arrived - Generally the coldest time of the night is after 3am and
before 7am.

On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 07:49:30 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 12/27/2015 7:39 AM, Mayayana wrote:
I have two. One outside an east-side window
and one outside a west-side window. Except for
brief period around lunchtime there's always one
in the shade. I should acknowledge, though, that
I'm not a stickler. This morning it was low 40s.
41? 43? I don't really care. I just want an idea of
what to expect when I go out.

Right. If I want to know the exact temperature, I go outside.

I'm not interested in personal comfort as much
as having "real data" for the HVAC system and
to know whether the citrus trees are in jeopardy.

E.g., Mandarins get upset at 32 (not 30 or 34)
but Navels will tolerate 28 (but not 26). The
mechanisms used to protect them usually only afford
a couple (3 or 4?) degrees of added protection -- but,
only when you *know* they need to be used.

I also can't understand why it always gets *colder*
as the Sun is rising!

It's also darkest just before the dawn! So I hear.

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/darkest-hour.html

On 12/27/2015 8:39 AM, Mayayana wrote:
I have two. One outside an east-side window
and one outside a west-side window. Except for
brief period around lunchtime there's always one
in the shade. I should acknowledge, though, that
I'm not a stickler. This morning it was low 40s.
41? 43? I don't really care. I just want an idea of
what to expect when I go out.



I'll often just touch the window to see how cold it feels to gauge how
many layers of sweater and coat I need before going outside.

--
Maggie

| I'll often just touch the window to see how cold it feels to gauge how
| many layers of sweater and coat I need before going outside.
|

Hopefully you don't end up getting double
insulated glass. You could freeze to death.

On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 20:32:02 -0500, "Mayayana"
wrote:

| I'll often just touch the window to see how cold it feels to gauge how
| many layers of sweater and coat I need before going outside.
|

Hopefully you don't end up getting double
insulated glass. You could freeze to death.

Or worse yet - tripple glazed windows

On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 10:31:12 -0600, Muggles wrote:

On 12/27/2015 8:39 AM, Mayayana wrote:
I have two. One outside an east-side window
and one outside a west-side window. Except for
brief period around lunchtime there's always one
in the shade. I should acknowledge, though, that
I'm not a stickler. This morning it was low 40s.
41? 43? I don't really care. I just want an idea of
what to expect when I go out.



I'll often just touch the window to see how cold it feels to gauge how
many layers of sweater and coat I need before going outside.

Luddite!

On 12/27/2015 9:24 AM, Don Y wrote:
I can't seem to get this right. : Can't put it on the
roof with the other sensors as the deliberate exposure that
the roof affords those others interferes with the accuracy
of the temperature reported.

And, mounting it on the back porch ("up" out of the way)
shades it from direct sunlight but "keeps it warm" in the
colder weather due to heat trapped by the roof of the porch
(the same roof that *shades* it from the Sun).

So, it seems like the trick is to find shade without an
"overhead covering"? (contradiction in terms??)

I'll try the porch -- but much closer to the ground (farther
from the heat-trapping ceiling)?

How about under the porch? In my case the deck off the kitchen is 8'
above the ground and the sensor is mounted below it, in the shade.
Proper position is 4" to 6" above ground and with good airflow.

To follow NWS standards it should be placed at a distance 4X the height
of the nearest structure, but that is impossible for most of us.

On 12/27/2015 8:03 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 12/27/2015 9:24 AM, Don Y wrote:
I can't seem to get this right. : Can't put it on the
roof with the other sensors as the deliberate exposure that
the roof affords those others interferes with the accuracy
of the temperature reported.

And, mounting it on the back porch ("up" out of the way)
shades it from direct sunlight but "keeps it warm" in the
colder weather due to heat trapped by the roof of the porch
(the same roof that *shades* it from the Sun).

So, it seems like the trick is to find shade without an
"overhead covering"? (contradiction in terms??)

I'll try the porch -- but much closer to the ground (farther
from the heat-trapping ceiling)?

How about under the porch? In my case the deck off the kitchen is 8' above the
ground and the sensor is mounted below it, in the shade. Proper position is 4"
to 6" above ground and with good airflow.

We're "at grade" so no "below" possible.

Current installation is on the back porch, a couple of feet below the
"roof"/ceiling -- high enough to be out of the way yet not so high
that I can't easily reach it with my outstretched arm.

This consistently reads warmer than "actual" -- because the roof and
house trap too much air (despite the porch/patio protruding out from the
house -- unobstructed on 3 sides).

I know this by comparing to another "thermometer" located out in the
middle of the yard (*that* one is useless during daylight hours as
it reads MUCH hotter than normal when the sun cooks it!).

To follow NWS standards it should be placed at a distance 4X the height of the
nearest structure, but that is impossible for most of us.

On 12/27/2015 8:24 AM, Don Y wrote:
I can't seem to get this right. : Can't put it on the
roof with the other sensors as the deliberate exposure that
the roof affords those others interferes with the accuracy
of the temperature reported.

And, mounting it on the back porch ("up" out of the way)
shades it from direct sunlight but "keeps it warm" in the
colder weather due to heat trapped by the roof of the porch
(the same roof that *shades* it from the Sun).

So, it seems like the trick is to find shade without an
"overhead covering"? (contradiction in terms??)

I'll try the porch -- but much closer to the ground (farther
from the heat-trapping ceiling)?

You've got a special situation; if you're serious about grove protection
I'd suggest getting in touch w/ the UofFL citrus folk--

www.crec.ifas.ufl.edu/

--

On 12/27/2015 8:45 AM, dpb wrote:
On 12/27/2015 8:24 AM, Don Y wrote:
I can't seem to get this right. : Can't put it on the
roof with the other sensors as the deliberate exposure that
the roof affords those others interferes with the accuracy
of the temperature reported.

And, mounting it on the back porch ("up" out of the way)
shades it from direct sunlight but "keeps it warm" in the
colder weather due to heat trapped by the roof of the porch
(the same roof that *shades* it from the Sun).

So, it seems like the trick is to find shade without an
"overhead covering"? (contradiction in terms??)

I'll try the porch -- but much closer to the ground (farther
from the heat-trapping ceiling)?

You've got a special situation; if you're serious about grove protection I'd
suggest getting in touch w/ the UofFL citrus folk--

grin Not a "grove", just half a dozen trees.

There's only so much we can realistically do; can't deploy smudge pots
as there are too many structures nearby; can't deploy fans as the trees
aren't arranged in a "grove" (we'd need several small fans, instead).

We opt to cover the trees and use small heat sources to help encourage
convective air flow (has to work in case it's also raining).

I've covetously eyed the "blow up figures" that folks put out for
holiday decorations thinking that I might be able to repurpose the
fans used in them. They *should* be able to tolerate rain, right?

OTOH, they are covered by a large inflatable fabric sack so I'm
not sure how well they actually fare in a downpour! (do people
actually have them inflated when its raining??)

The more practical solution is to move to higher ground farther
from the wash.

Or, stop growing fruit that doesn't like the weather!! :

[I've repeatedly threatened SWMBO that when the next REALLY cold
spell comes through and whacks the trees, I'll use them in the
smoker!! : ]

On 12/27/2015 4:40 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 12/27/2015 8:45 AM, dpb wrote:
On 12/27/2015 8:24 AM, Don Y wrote:
I can't seem to get this right. : Can't put it on the
roof with the other sensors as the deliberate exposure that
the roof affords those others interferes with the accuracy
of the temperature reported.

And, mounting it on the back porch ("up" out of the way)
shades it from direct sunlight but "keeps it warm" in the
colder weather due to heat trapped by the roof of the porch
(the same roof that *shades* it from the Sun).

So, it seems like the trick is to find shade without an
"overhead covering"? (contradiction in terms??)

I'll try the porch -- but much closer to the ground (farther
from the heat-trapping ceiling)?

You've got a special situation; if you're serious about grove
protection I'd
suggest getting in touch w/ the UofFL citrus folk--

grin Not a "grove", just half a dozen trees.

There's only so much we can realistically do; can't deploy smudge pots
as there are too many structures nearby; can't deploy fans as the trees
aren't arranged in a "grove" (we'd need several small fans, instead).

We opt to cover the trees and use small heat sources to help encourage
convective air flow (has to work in case it's also raining).

I've covetously eyed the "blow up figures" that folks put out for
holiday decorations thinking that I might be able to repurpose the
fans used in them. They *should* be able to tolerate rain, right?

OTOH, they are covered by a large inflatable fabric sack so I'm
not sure how well they actually fare in a downpour! (do people
actually have them inflated when its raining??)

The more practical solution is to move to higher ground farther
from the wash.

Or, stop growing fruit that doesn't like the weather!! :

[I've repeatedly threatened SWMBO that when the next REALLY cold
spell comes through and whacks the trees, I'll use them in the
smoker!! : ]

I've not been to grandparents' old place in TX Valley in years to know
what they now use (of course, it's two-three generations removed from
grandparents now) but for temp measurement I'd think you'd get by pretty
nicely with just a covered box near where you really need the detail
info; as you point out if you're really after that local
micro-difference to protect individual tree(s) it may not be enough
unless you go for it in an all or nothing fashion whenever you do get an
indication (likely the most reasonable alternative). But, as another I
think noted, I've got a Davis Instruments weather station that seems to
be quite accurate simply with the sun shielding they come with "out of
the box" -- it sits out in the midday sun in SW KS at 100+ F w/o
measuring ridiculously high temps that occur from directly-exposed
thermometers.

The standard thermometer on the north side of the house at the top of
the porch also has always seemed pretty good -- it's 8' or so, roughly
from actual outside wall of the house so the heating effects don't seem
very influential as far as can tell...

--

On 12/28/2015 8:32 AM, dpb wrote:
On 12/27/2015 4:40 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 12/27/2015 8:45 AM, dpb wrote:
On 12/27/2015 8:24 AM, Don Y wrote:
I can't seem to get this right. : Can't put it on the
roof with the other sensors as the deliberate exposure that
the roof affords those others interferes with the accuracy
of the temperature reported.

And, mounting it on the back porch ("up" out of the way)
shades it from direct sunlight but "keeps it warm" in the
colder weather due to heat trapped by the roof of the porch
(the same roof that *shades* it from the Sun).

So, it seems like the trick is to find shade without an
"overhead covering"? (contradiction in terms??)

I'll try the porch -- but much closer to the ground (farther
from the heat-trapping ceiling)?

You've got a special situation; if you're serious about grove
protection I'd
suggest getting in touch w/ the UofFL citrus folk--

grin Not a "grove", just half a dozen trees.

There's only so much we can realistically do; can't deploy smudge pots
as there are too many structures nearby; can't deploy fans as the trees
aren't arranged in a "grove" (we'd need several small fans, instead).

We opt to cover the trees and use small heat sources to help encourage
convective air flow (has to work in case it's also raining).

I've covetously eyed the "blow up figures" that folks put out for
holiday decorations thinking that I might be able to repurpose the
fans used in them. They *should* be able to tolerate rain, right?

OTOH, they are covered by a large inflatable fabric sack so I'm
not sure how well they actually fare in a downpour! (do people
actually have them inflated when its raining??)

The more practical solution is to move to higher ground farther
from the wash.

Or, stop growing fruit that doesn't like the weather!! :

[I've repeatedly threatened SWMBO that when the next REALLY cold
spell comes through and whacks the trees, I'll use them in the
smoker!! : ]

I've not been to grandparents' old place in TX Valley in years to know what
they now use (of course, it's two-three generations removed from grandparents
now) but for temp measurement I'd think you'd get by pretty nicely with just a
covered box near where you really need the detail info; as you point out if
you're really after that local micro-difference to protect individual tree(s)
it may not be enough unless you go for it in an all or nothing fashion whenever
you do get an indication (likely the most reasonable alternative). But, as
another I think noted, I've got a Davis Instruments weather station that seems
to be quite accurate simply with the sun shielding they come with "out of the
box" -- it sits out in the midday sun in SW KS at 100+ F w/o measuring
ridiculously high temps that occur from directly-exposed thermometers.

The standard thermometer on the north side of the house at the top of the porch
also has always seemed pretty good -- it's 8' or so, roughly from actual
outside wall of the house so the heating effects don't seem very influential as
far as can tell...

Radiate heat from the (masonry) house isn't the problem, IMO.
Rather, it is the heat trapped under the roofline that elevates
the temperature registered by the thermometer/sensor.

I would like to come up with a "solution" that others can
recreate (as I assume others will be interested in much of
the technology that I've developed -- and I'm not interested in
going into manufacturing! : )

COTS "weather stations", IME, are just "curiosities". They give
the user/owner a sense of what the weather is like -- without having
to be precise (note "precise" and "accurate" have different technical
meanings).

E.g., an indoor thermometer doesn't have to be accurate at all!
Do you *really* know if it is 68F in the house? 71? What's
the temperature at the other end of the hallway? In the kitchen?
etc.

All you want from the "thermostat" is to keep the temperature AT
a particular point -- and, some way of referring to that point
(we could call it "foogle" just as easily as "68") as well as
points ABOVE and BELOW ("elgar" is just below "foogle" and "gismatch"
is just above! : )

OTOH, if you know that a particular fruit is hardy to 32F (or 28F),
then you don't want to play guessing games wondering if 32 is
"elgar", "foogle" or "gismatch"!

You also want to know the *actual* relationship between these so
you can perform reliable mathematical operations on them: "How much
energy do I have to expend to create a local "foogle" microclimate
when the outdoor temperature is "elgar"? Or, "dingbrill"? At which
point will I no longer be able to influence the microclimate based on
these calculations??

[Someone with the sort of interest I'm concerned about will be
willing to sort out *proper* placement of a sensor instead of
just relying on what's convenient]

On 12/28/2015 11:54 AM, Don Y wrote:
....

OTOH, if you know that a particular fruit is hardy to 32F (or 28F),
then you don't want to play guessing games wondering if 32 is
"elgar", "foogle" or "gismatch"!

You also want to know the *actual* relationship between these so
you can perform reliable mathematical operations on them: "How much
energy do I have to expend to create a local "foogle" microclimate
when the outdoor temperature is "elgar"? Or, "dingbrill"? At which
point will I no longer be able to influence the microclimate based on
these calculations??

[Someone with the sort of interest I'm concerned about will be
willing to sort out *proper* placement of a sensor instead of
just relying on what's convenient]

Well, if you're really thinking you're going to get into it in that
depth, then there's a _ton_ of research already done and a large
fraction of it illustrates that simply knowing air temperature (no
matter how accurately) ain't _nearly_ enough to reliably predict damage.

--

On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 10:54:56 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 12/28/2015 8:32 AM, dpb wrote:
On 12/27/2015 4:40 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 12/27/2015 8:45 AM, dpb wrote:
On 12/27/2015 8:24 AM, Don Y wrote:
I can't seem to get this right. : Can't put it on the
roof with the other sensors as the deliberate exposure that
the roof affords those others interferes with the accuracy
of the temperature reported.

And, mounting it on the back porch ("up" out of the way)
shades it from direct sunlight but "keeps it warm" in the
colder weather due to heat trapped by the roof of the porch
(the same roof that *shades* it from the Sun).

So, it seems like the trick is to find shade without an
"overhead covering"? (contradiction in terms??)

I'll try the porch -- but much closer to the ground (farther
from the heat-trapping ceiling)?

You've got a special situation; if you're serious about grove
protection I'd
suggest getting in touch w/ the UofFL citrus folk--

grin Not a "grove", just half a dozen trees.

There's only so much we can realistically do; can't deploy smudge pots
as there are too many structures nearby; can't deploy fans as the trees
aren't arranged in a "grove" (we'd need several small fans, instead).

We opt to cover the trees and use small heat sources to help encourage
convective air flow (has to work in case it's also raining).

I've covetously eyed the "blow up figures" that folks put out for
holiday decorations thinking that I might be able to repurpose the
fans used in them. They *should* be able to tolerate rain, right?

OTOH, they are covered by a large inflatable fabric sack so I'm
not sure how well they actually fare in a downpour! (do people
actually have them inflated when its raining??)

The more practical solution is to move to higher ground farther
from the wash.

Or, stop growing fruit that doesn't like the weather!! :

[I've repeatedly threatened SWMBO that when the next REALLY cold
spell comes through and whacks the trees, I'll use them in the
smoker!! : ]

I've not been to grandparents' old place in TX Valley in years to know what
they now use (of course, it's two-three generations removed from grandparents
now) but for temp measurement I'd think you'd get by pretty nicely with just a
covered box near where you really need the detail info; as you point out if
you're really after that local micro-difference to protect individual tree(s)
it may not be enough unless you go for it in an all or nothing fashion whenever
you do get an indication (likely the most reasonable alternative). But, as
another I think noted, I've got a Davis Instruments weather station that seems
to be quite accurate simply with the sun shielding they come with "out of the
box" -- it sits out in the midday sun in SW KS at 100+ F w/o measuring
ridiculously high temps that occur from directly-exposed thermometers.

The standard thermometer on the north side of the house at the top of the porch
also has always seemed pretty good -- it's 8' or so, roughly from actual
outside wall of the house so the heating effects don't seem very influential as
far as can tell...

Radiate heat from the (masonry) house isn't the problem, IMO.
Rather, it is the heat trapped under the roofline that elevates
the temperature registered by the thermometer/sensor.

I would like to come up with a "solution" that others can
recreate (as I assume others will be interested in much of
the technology that I've developed -- and I'm not interested in
going into manufacturing! : )

COTS "weather stations", IME, are just "curiosities". They give
the user/owner a sense of what the weather is like -- without having
to be precise (note "precise" and "accurate" have different technical
meanings).

E.g., an indoor thermometer doesn't have to be accurate at all!
Do you *really* know if it is 68F in the house? 71? What's
the temperature at the other end of the hallway? In the kitchen?
etc.

All you want from the "thermostat" is to keep the temperature AT
a particular point -- and, some way of referring to that point
(we could call it "foogle" just as easily as "68") as well as
points ABOVE and BELOW ("elgar" is just below "foogle" and "gismatch"
is just above! : )

OTOH, if you know that a particular fruit is hardy to 32F (or 28F),
then you don't want to play guessing games wondering if 32 is
"elgar", "foogle" or "gismatch"!

You also want to know the *actual* relationship between these so
you can perform reliable mathematical operations on them: "How much
energy do I have to expend to create a local "foogle" microclimate
when the outdoor temperature is "elgar"? Or, "dingbrill"? At which
point will I no longer be able to influence the microclimate based on
these calculations??

[Someone with the sort of interest I'm concerned about will be
willing to sort out *proper* placement of a sensor instead of
just relying on what's convenient]
Have you tried the chunk of 6 inch plastic pipe??
You get a chimey effect that moves the sir through the pipe when the
sun shines - negating any radiant heat absoption, you get full time
shade, and no heat entrapment. Put it on a pole out close to the
trees. It will be about the most accurate temperature record you can
get, across all variables. Mount the temp sensor in the middle of the
pipe. 2 or 3 feet long is adequate - longer won't hurt

On 12/27/2015 8:24 AM, Don Y wrote:
I can't seem to get this right. : Can't put it on the
roof with the other sensors as the deliberate exposure that
the roof affords those others interferes with the accuracy
of the temperature reported.

And, mounting it on the back porch ("up" out of the way)
shades it from direct sunlight but "keeps it warm" in the
colder weather due to heat trapped by the roof of the porch
(the same roof that *shades* it from the Sun).

So, it seems like the trick is to find shade without an
"overhead covering"? (contradiction in terms??)

I'll try the porch -- but much closer to the ground (farther
from the heat-trapping ceiling)?

We have 2 of them. One on the front porch and one outside the back of
the house by a window. The temps are pretty close even though the shade
hits both of them during the day at some point. We also have a
thermometer on our vehicles in the driveway, too. It's usually only a
couple of degrees difference in temp from the porch to the driveway.

--
Maggie

On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 07:24:12 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

I can't seem to get this right. : Can't put it on the
roof with the other sensors as the deliberate exposure that
the roof affords those others interferes with the accuracy
of the temperature reported.

And, mounting it on the back porch ("up" out of the way)
shades it from direct sunlight but "keeps it warm" in the
colder weather due to heat trapped by the roof of the porch
(the same roof that *shades* it from the Sun).

So, it seems like the trick is to find shade without an
"overhead covering"? (contradiction in terms??)

I'll try the porch -- but much closer to the ground (farther
from the heat-trapping ceiling)?
Put it inside a 3 foot long 6 inch white plastic pipe, at least 3
feet off the ground and open at both ends. Mount the thermometer in
the center of the pipe. Of course this only works for remote reading
thermometers.

On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 07:24:12 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

I can't seem to get this right. : Can't put it on the
roof with the other sensors as the deliberate exposure that
the roof affords those others interferes with the accuracy
of the temperature reported.

And, mounting it on the back porch ("up" out of the way)
shades it from direct sunlight but "keeps it warm" in the
colder weather due to heat trapped by the roof of the porch
(the same roof that *shades* it from the Sun).

So, it seems like the trick is to find shade without an
"overhead covering"? (contradiction in terms??)

I'll try the porch -- but much closer to the ground (farther
from the heat-trapping ceiling)?

I have a tree about 6ft. from a house window. I put a thermometer on the
tree. During rain, water ran down the tree trunk and would get inside
the thermometer. I finally drilled a hole in the bottom of the plastic
front of it to let the water drain out, but eventually it ruined the
thermometer. Now I have a new one, but I mounted it on a board, put a
piece of tin at the top of the board to hang over the thermometer and
divert the water away from it. Then I screwed the whole board to the
tree. I hope this works better.

Anywhere on the north side of a building that has a wall that is reasonably insulated and that has air flow should be satisfactory. Don't make a 6-day project out of a five minute task!!!

Don Y writes:
I can't seem to get this right. : Can't put it on the
roof with the other sensors as the deliberate exposure that
the roof affords those others interferes with the accuracy
of the temperature reported.

And, mounting it on the back porch ("up" out of the way)
shades it from direct sunlight but "keeps it warm" in the
colder weather due to heat trapped by the roof of the porch
(the same roof that *shades* it from the Sun).

So, it seems like the trick is to find shade without an
"overhead covering"? (contradiction in terms??)

I'll try the porch -- but much closer to the ground (farther
from the heat-trapping ceiling)?

Stevenson Screen.

i had the same problem, especially when i lived in Las Vegas


life is [so] hard, isn't it?


you might try Multiple outdoor sensor locations

marc