wrote in message
...
Secondly, I'm wondering if yiu're being taken for something you dont
need. (Meaning the 200A upgrade). How many watts does that thing draw?
If you already have an electric "tank type" water heater, they have two
elements which normally use 4500 Watt elements. If this tankless uses
about the same wattage, then there is no reason to need the 200A
upgrade.


While the elements are 4500 watts, only one of the elements are on at a
time, not both.

On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 10:30:29 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:


You offer a lot of advice considering you admit you know nothing about
them.

Home Guy is a devout pessimist; regardless, if it is PEX or tankless
water heaters.

On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 03:47:17 -0600, wrote:

First off, WHY do you want a tankless water heater? I'm not being a
smart ass, I really dont know anything about them, and dont understand
what the advantage is over a traditional tank water heater....

Technology advancement...

It has been said that PEX and tankless water heaters will one day in
this century, be exclusive in American homes.

"Oren" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 03:47:17 -0600, wrote:

First off, WHY do you want a tankless water heater? I'm not being a
smart ass, I really dont know anything about them, and dont understand
what the advantage is over a traditional tank water heater....

Technology advancement...

It has been said that PEX and tankless water heaters will one day in
this century, be exclusive in American homes.

For the technology advancement don't you want the newer heat pump type of
water heater ?

On 3/29/2015 6:57 PM, wrote:
Even if I save $20 a month over the cost to operate my electric tank
type water heater, there would still be no savings after 10 years and
probably more. By tha time, it might be time to start thinking about a
replacement tankless heater. I dont know the life span of them, but
everything fails over time. . . . . .

Tankless only advantage is to save space and to provide a continuous
supply of hot water. The rest is all marketing fluff.

On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 16:57:19 -0600, wrote:

On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 04:57:35 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:


The main advantages are an unlimited supply of hot water and
no standby losses that you'd have from a tank. The standby
losses however don't appear to be all that great. My gas bill
in summer is just $17 a month and that includes not only the
standby usage, but the hot water used too.


Secondly, I'm wondering if yiu're being taken for something you dont
need. (Meaning the 200A upgrade). How many watts does that thing draw?
If you already have an electric "tank type" water heater, they have two
elements which normally use 4500 Watt elements. If this tankless uses
about the same wattage, then there is no reason to need the 200A
upgrade.


A tankless that replaces a tank type has to use many times the
wattage, because it has no tank. What the tank heater does in
hours, the tankless has to do instantly. If it's a whole house
tankless, or even one for a whole bathroom, needing a service
upgrade isn't unusual. It's also not unusual to need piping and/or
service upgrade to support a gas one either.


If this is the case, I do see how the upgrade is needed. But I know I'd
never do it. I dont know the cost of those tankless heaters, but I
heard they are high. Then add the cost of the power upgrade and
probably more plumbing changes and electrical cable runs, and it sounds
like many thousands of dollars.

Even if I save $20 a month over the cost to operate my electric tank
type water heater, there would still be no savings after 10 years and
probably more. By tha time, it might be time to start thinking about a
replacement tankless heater. I dont know the life span of them, but
everything fails over time. . . . . .

In the real world, at north american energy costs, they will NEVER pay
for themselves within their normal lifespan. and that is if nothing
breaks down in between.

On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 04:57:35 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:


The main advantages are an unlimited supply of hot water and
no standby losses that you'd have from a tank. The standby
losses however don't appear to be all that great. My gas bill
in summer is just $17 a month and that includes not only the
standby usage, but the hot water used too.


Secondly, I'm wondering if yiu're being taken for something you dont
need. (Meaning the 200A upgrade). How many watts does that thing draw?
If you already have an electric "tank type" water heater, they have two
elements which normally use 4500 Watt elements. If this tankless uses
about the same wattage, then there is no reason to need the 200A
upgrade.


A tankless that replaces a tank type has to use many times the
wattage, because it has no tank. What the tank heater does in
hours, the tankless has to do instantly. If it's a whole house
tankless, or even one for a whole bathroom, needing a service
upgrade isn't unusual. It's also not unusual to need piping and/or
service upgrade to support a gas one either.


If this is the case, I do see how the upgrade is needed. But I know I'd
never do it. I dont know the cost of those tankless heaters, but I
heard they are high. Then add the cost of the power upgrade and
probably more plumbing changes and electrical cable runs, and it sounds
like many thousands of dollars.

Even if I save $20 a month over the cost to operate my electric tank
type water heater, there would still be no savings after 10 years and
probably more. By tha time, it might be time to start thinking about a
replacement tankless heater. I dont know the life span of them, but
everything fails over time. . . . . .

On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 13:23:24 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 03:47:17 -0600, wrote:

First off, WHY do you want a tankless water heater? I'm not being a
smart ass, I really dont know anything about them, and dont understand
what the advantage is over a traditional tank water heater....

Technology advancement...

It has been said that PEX and tankless water heaters will one day in
this century, be exclusive in American homes.
Pex, mabee - if they don't come up with something better in the
meantime.
Tankless heaters - not very likely. In Europe, mabee. In florida,
possibly. In minnesota, or Alberta, not unless global warming
progresses a lot faster than expected.

On 3/29/2015 6:56 PM, wrote:


In the real world, at north american energy costs, they will NEVER pay
for themselves within their normal lifespan. and that is if nothing
breaks down in between.


But what about the children? We have to conserve for them. I plan to
leave each of my grandkids five gallons of #2 oil, and great grandkids
10 gallons.

Ed Pawlowski wrote:

They offer energy savings as you don't keep hot a 60 or 80 gallon tank
of hot water all the time. You just make what you need when you need it.

That's true, but does not take the lifecycle cost of installation and operation
into account. Storage tank heat loss is far lower than most people realize.
Especially with the new insulation standards for heaters now being sold.

Tankless heaters cost more to purchase, more to install and require regular
maintenance. They also have their quirks in that they don't handle low flow
demand very well. They rarely make economic sense in a retrofit situation as
getting sufficient electrical or gas supply can be an issue.

They make a nice selling point for new construction since getting sufficient
electrical or gas service usually is minor at builkd time and the additional
cost is buried in the overall cost of the house. Not sure most people realize
they need to have scheduled service calls, but hey - the get the warm fuzzy
feeling.

On 3/29/2015 7:59 PM, Arthur Conan Doyle wrote:
Ed Pawlowski wrote:

They offer energy savings as you don't keep hot a 60 or 80 gallon tank
of hot water all the time. You just make what you need when you need it.

That's true, but does not take the lifecycle cost of installation and operation
into account. Storage tank heat loss is far lower than most people realize.
Especially with the new insulation standards for heaters now being sold.

Tankless heaters cost more to purchase, more to install and require regular
maintenance. They also have their quirks in that they don't handle low flow
demand very well. They rarely make economic sense in a retrofit situation as
getting sufficient electrical or gas supply can be an issue.

They make a nice selling point for new construction since getting sufficient
electrical or gas service usually is minor at builkd time and the additional
cost is buried in the overall cost of the house. Not sure most people realize
they need to have scheduled service calls, but hey - the get the warm fuzzy
feeling.


New tanks are very well insulated. A couple with the same indirect
fired 4o gallon tank that I have went on vacation for a week. They
turned the heat off when they left and forgot about it. Wife took a
shower, then husband took a shower and noticed at the end the water was
starting to get cold. Only then did they realize the heat was off for a
week. I'd say that is pretty good insulation.

New tanks are very well insulated. A couple with the same indirect
fired 4o gallon tank that I have went on vacation for a week. They
turned the heat off when they left and forgot about it. Wife took a
shower, then husband took a shower and noticed at the end the water was
starting to get cold. Only then did they realize the heat was off for a
week. I'd say that is pretty good insulation.

oe night I came home and found my old tank type heater leaking, so i turned off the gas and water.

near 24 hours later i got a nice hot shower. the water in the tank was still hot..

the old tank held the heat well.

On Mon, 30 Mar 2015 11:06:29 -0600, wrote:

oe night I came home and found my old tank type heater leaking, so i turned
off the gas and water.

near 24 hours later i got a nice hot shower. the water in the tank was still hot..

the old tank held the heat well.

That must have been a mighty DRY shower with the water turned off

It was a sloooww leak at the tank.

On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 20:00:04 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:



New tanks are very well insulated. A couple with the same indirect
fired 4o gallon tank that I have went on vacation for a week. They
turned the heat off when they left and forgot about it. Wife took a
shower, then husband took a shower and noticed at the end the water was
starting to get cold. Only then did they realize the heat was off for a
week. I'd say that is pretty good insulation.

oe night I came home and found my old tank type heater leaking, so i turned
off the gas and water.

near 24 hours later i got a nice hot shower. the water in the tank was still hot..

the old tank held the heat well.

That must have been a mighty DRY shower with the water turned off

On Monday, March 30, 2015 at 12:33:43 PM UTC-4, Oren wrote:
On Mon, 30 Mar 2015 11:06:29 -0600, wrote:

oe night I came home and found my old tank type heater leaking, so i turned
off the gas and water.

near 24 hours later i got a nice hot shower. the water in the tank was still hot..

the old tank held the heat well.

That must have been a mighty DRY shower with the water turned off

It was a sloooww leak at the tank.

actually the leak was at the flue at the very top of the tank.

out of curosity i turned the water back on just long enough to get a shower. i was amazed it was a nice hot shower.

On Mon, 30 Mar 2015 10:29:09 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

On Monday, March 30, 2015 at 12:33:43 PM UTC-4, Oren wrote:
On Mon, 30 Mar 2015 11:06:29 -0600, wrote:

oe night I came home and found my old tank type heater leaking, so i turned
off the gas and water.

near 24 hours later i got a nice hot shower. the water in the tank was still hot..

the old tank held the heat well.

That must have been a mighty DRY shower with the water turned off

It was a sloooww leak at the tank.

actually the leak was at the flue at the very top of the tank.

out of curosity i turned the water back on just long enough to get a shower. i was amazed it was a nice hot shower.

Nothing like having a "nice hot shower" before you get dirty fixing
the broken water heater.

On Monday, March 30, 2015 at 2:10:13 PM UTC-4, Oren wrote:
On Mon, 30 Mar 2015 10:29:09 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

On Monday, March 30, 2015 at 12:33:43 PM UTC-4, Oren wrote:
On Mon, 30 Mar 2015 11:06:29 -0600, wrote:

oe night I came home and found my old tank type heater leaking, so i turned
off the gas and water.

near 24 hours later i got a nice hot shower. the water in the tank was still hot..

the old tank held the heat well.

That must have been a mighty DRY shower with the water turned off

It was a sloooww leak at the tank.

actually the leak was at the flue at the very top of the tank.

out of curosity i turned the water back on just long enough to get a shower. i was amazed it was a nice hot shower.

Nothing like having a "nice hot shower" before you get dirty fixing
the broken water heater.

back when I had bucks I had that one replaced. the company showed up very late like 12 hours late, my wife had taken the day off so they could install a new one. the crew claimed the tank i had selected wouldnt fit.. it was bigger capacity.

me and the worker ended up yelling at one another. i called the compant and complained, crew number 2 found the tank i had picked fit perfect...

the next day the companys owner who heard about the mess called, said the worker was in a big rush to get to a concert he had already bought tickets for, the truck broke down that morning, owner was orry and refunded me 5o bucks or some such for what i had gone thru.

this is why I do mostly DIY stuff, the prosarent perfect either.

this must of been 20 years ago.

On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 18:58:50 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 13:23:24 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 03:47:17 -0600, wrote:

First off, WHY do you want a tankless water heater? I'm not being a
smart ass, I really dont know anything about them, and dont understand
what the advantage is over a traditional tank water heater....

Technology advancement...

It has been said that PEX and tankless water heaters will one day in
this century, be exclusive in American homes.

Pex, mabee - if they don't come up with something better in the
meantime.

To get any better, PEX would need to install itself

Tankless heaters - not very likely. In Europe, mabee. In florida,
possibly. In minnesota, or Alberta, not unless global warming
progresses a lot faster than expected.

It was a conversation or a comment I heard about tankless heaters.
Using the equation (given above thread) to figure out the sizing, I
can't see a real problem using them in cold regions. How cold is the
incoming water and water temp rise do you desire...

I'd say not all homes will have them, but many will through attrition
and tech advancing.

On Tue, 31 Mar 2015 09:32:52 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 18:58:50 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 13:23:24 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 03:47:17 -0600, wrote:

First off, WHY do you want a tankless water heater? I'm not being a
smart ass, I really dont know anything about them, and dont understand
what the advantage is over a traditional tank water heater....

Technology advancement...

It has been said that PEX and tankless water heaters will one day in
this century, be exclusive in American homes.

Pex, mabee - if they don't come up with something better in the
meantime.

To get any better, PEX would need to install itself

Tankless heaters - not very likely. In Europe, mabee. In florida,
possibly. In minnesota, or Alberta, not unless global warming
progresses a lot faster than expected.

It was a conversation or a comment I heard about tankless heaters.
Using the equation (given above thread) to figure out the sizing, I
can't see a real problem using them in cold regions. How cold is the
incoming water and water temp rise do you desire...

I'd say not all homes will have them, but many will through attrition
and tech advancing.


Mabee many, but definitely not most When the water coming in can be in
the mid 30s to low 40s F getting water hot enough for a decent shower
would take 2 in series. Will take a lot more "tech advancing" - and
MOST houses don't have big enough gas or electrical service to handle
even one of the energy suckers.

On Tuesday, March 31, 2015 at 7:34:34 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 31 Mar 2015 09:32:52 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 18:58:50 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 13:23:24 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 03:47:17 -0600, wrote:

First off, WHY do you want a tankless water heater? I'm not being a
smart ass, I really dont know anything about them, and dont understand
what the advantage is over a traditional tank water heater....

Technology advancement...

It has been said that PEX and tankless water heaters will one day in
this century, be exclusive in American homes.

Pex, mabee - if they don't come up with something better in the
meantime.

To get any better, PEX would need to install itself

Tankless heaters - not very likely. In Europe, mabee. In florida,
possibly. In minnesota, or Alberta, not unless global warming
progresses a lot faster than expected.

It was a conversation or a comment I heard about tankless heaters.
Using the equation (given above thread) to figure out the sizing, I
can't see a real problem using them in cold regions. How cold is the
incoming water and water temp rise do you desire...

I'd say not all homes will have them, but many will through attrition
and tech advancing.


Mabee many, but definitely not most When the water coming in can be in
the mid 30s to low 40s F getting water hot enough for a decent shower
would take 2 in series. Will take a lot more "tech advancing" - and
MOST houses don't have big enough gas or electrical service to handle
even one of the energy suckers.

plus add FLOW. One person living alone not a biggie. enough flow to do one thing at a time.

now a busy home with 4 people living there, laundry going, perhaps 2 showers going at same time. add incoming low water temperature say in the 30s.

now a conventional tank normally always has some hot water. even in a power failure.

we had a 4 day power outage, it was nice to have hot showers available.....

imagine cold showers.

the only thing tankless do is elminate standby losses.....

with the new standards requiring better insulation etc, standby losses are reduced, and they werent large to begin with.

standby losses help heat your home in cold climates so they arent a big issue to begin with.

I upsized my tank a lot..... from a 30 gallon 3400 BTU tank. after a few larger tanks my current one is 75 gallon, 75,000 BTU.

I can get a nice hot shower while washing clothes, we have 2 washers and 2 dryers. all gas....

On 3/31/2015 8:40 PM, bob haller wrote:

I can get a nice hot shower while washing clothes, we have 2 washers and 2 dryers. all gas....


Family of 20? can't imagine a family of say, 5 to 7 or so needing that
capacity.

On Tuesday, March 31, 2015 at 9:15:03 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/31/2015 8:40 PM, bob haller wrote:

I can get a nice hot shower while washing clothes, we have 2 washers and 2 dryers. all gas....


Family of 20? can't imagine a family of say, 5 to 7 or so needing that
capacity.

most people we have had is 6.....

2 washers and 2 dryers is all about doing laundry fast, it saves trips up and down the steps. that matters both me and my GF have bad knees

bob haller writes:
On Tuesday, March 31, 2015 at 7:34:34 PM UTC-4, wrote:


Mabee many, but definitely not most When the water coming in can be in
the mid 30s to low 40s F getting water hot enough for a decent shower
would take 2 in series. Will take a lot more "tech advancing" - and
MOST houses don't have big enough gas or electrical service to handle
even one of the energy suckers.


Have to wonder where you live that the incoming water temperature
is in the 30s. Given that the ground temperature below the
frost line generally hovers around the annual average temperature
for the area (e.g. 53 degrees in central wisconsin), it seems
that a supply temperature in the 30s would be unusual.

"Throughout most of the U.S., the temperature of the ground below the frost
line (about 3 to 5 feet below the surface) remains at a nearly constant
temperature, generally in the 45 ° -50° F range in northern latitudes,
and in the 50 ° -70 ° F range in the south."

http://geoexchange.sustainablesources.com/

On 03/31/2015 11:32 AM, Oren wrote:

[snip]

To get any better, PEX would need to install itself

USB-programmable self-installing PEX. Maybe it even heats the water.

--
"Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most." -- Ozzie Osborne

On 03/31/2015 07:40 PM, bob haller wrote:

[snip]

we had a 4 day power outage, it was nice to have hot showers available.....

Yes. I remember really liking a hot shower during a power outage because
of an ice storm. The outage won't wait for warm weather.

[snip]


--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"The Greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism." -- Sir William
Osler

On Wed, 01 Apr 2015 13:42:08 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

Mabee many, but definitely not most When the water coming in can be in
the mid 30s to low 40s F getting water hot enough for a decent shower
would take 2 in series. Will take a lot more "tech advancing" - and
MOST houses don't have big enough gas or electrical service to handle
even one of the energy suckers.


Have to wonder where you live that the incoming water temperature
is in the 30s. Given that the ground temperature below the
frost line generally hovers around the annual average temperature
for the area (e.g. 53 degrees in central wisconsin), it seems
that a supply temperature in the 30s would be unusual.

"Throughout most of the U.S., the temperature of the ground below the frost
line (about 3 to 5 feet below the surface) remains at a nearly constant
temperature, generally in the 45 ° -50° F range in northern latitudes,
and in the 50 ° -70 ° F range in the south."

http://geoexchange.sustainablesources.com/

+1 Tankless in cold regions may need to be larger units. Figure the
temp rise needed for a given water feature.

Here in the desert, units are better being zoned for demands. A 5,000
sq. ft. home has three zones.... two are mounted inside exterior
walls, one in the garage - no need for vents or power vents for the
two outside units.

On Wed, 01 Apr 2015 11:30:14 -0500, hah
wrote:

To get any better, PEX would need to install itself

USB-programmable self-installing PEX. Maybe it even heats the water.

Optimism. Pass it on.

On Wed, 01 Apr 2015 13:42:08 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

bob haller writes:
On Tuesday, March 31, 2015 at 7:34:34 PM UTC-4, wrote:


Mabee many, but definitely not most When the water coming in can be in
the mid 30s to low 40s F getting water hot enough for a decent shower
would take 2 in series. Will take a lot more "tech advancing" - and
MOST houses don't have big enough gas or electrical service to handle
even one of the energy suckers.


Have to wonder where you live that the incoming water temperature
is in the 30s. Given that the ground temperature below the
frost line generally hovers around the annual average temperature
for the area (e.g. 53 degrees in central wisconsin), it seems
that a supply temperature in the 30s would be unusual.

"Throughout most of the U.S., the temperature of the ground below the frost
line (about 3 to 5 feet below the surface) remains at a nearly constant
temperature, generally in the 45 ° -50° F range in northern latitudes,
and in the 50 ° -70 ° F range in the south."

http://geoexchange.sustainablesources.com/
Well, in Guelph Ontario there are still a couple hundred homes with
no water due to frozen lines. The water lines are over 4 feet down,
which in normal winters is below the frost line. This year it was not.
Incoming water here in Waterloo a couple weeks ago was 38F.. Not sure
what it is right now.