I had a recent conversation with a AT&T tech and asked him what the status of old rural landlines for old rural home phones was. He said it all would be abandoned in 5 years (2020). It would be replaced with VOIP over their required satellite service (Dish). Cost would start at $19.95/mo without all the current taxes but I'm sure they'll want you to take more services. Sounds pretty shaky if you need to dial 911 in a hurry and coverage is down due to weather.

On 2015-01-09 6:34 PM, wrote:
I had a recent conversation with a AT&T tech and asked him what the status of old rural landlines for old rural home phones was. He said it all would be abandoned in 5 years (2020). It would be replaced with VOIP over their required satellite service (Dish). Cost would start at $19.95/mo without all the current taxes but I'm sure they'll want you to take more services. Sounds pretty shaky if you need to dial 911 in a hurry and coverage is down due to weather.


Not to mention the 1/2 second delay (minimum) inherent in VoIP on a
satellite connection.


--
Dr. WTF

On Fri, 9 Jan 2015 17:34:53 -0800 (PST), wrote:

I had a recent conversation with a AT&T tech and asked him what the status of old rural landlines for old rural home phones was. He said it all would be abandoned in 5 years (2020). It would be replaced with VOIP over their required satellite service (Dish). Cost would start at $19.95/mo without all the current taxes but I'm sure they'll want you to take more services. Sounds pretty shaky if you need to dial 911 in a hurry and coverage is down due to weather.

It's really not a problem. Jack Bauer will have Chloe reposition the
satellite so that it's not over a storm.

Unless of course it's a hydronuclear storm on the sun.

On Friday, January 9, 2015 at 8:34:57 PM UTC-5, wrote:
I had a recent conversation with a AT&T tech and asked him what the status of old rural landlines for old rural home phones was. He said it all would be abandoned in 5 years (2020). It would be replaced with VOIP over their required satellite service (Dish). Cost would start at $19.95/mo without all the current taxes but I'm sure they'll want you to take more services. Sounds pretty shaky if you need to dial 911 in a hurry and coverage is down due to weather.

An AT&T tech might know something, but AFAIK, AT&T isn't even the company
that's responsible. When AT&T was split up in the 80s, the baby bells took
over the installed landlines, local phone service, etc. I'd be surprised if
there is some majic cuttoff date. I expect it will just slowly die off and
how long copper lasts anywhere will be a localized issue. Here in NJ,
some shore communities were the first in the country where the phone company
(Verizon) decided not to replace damaged copper.

On Sat, 10 Jan 2015 03:32:46 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Friday, January 9, 2015 at 8:34:57 PM UTC-5, wrote:
I had a recent conversation with a AT&T tech and asked him what the status of old rural landlines for old rural home phones was. He said it all would be abandoned in 5 years (2020). It would be replaced with VOIP over their required satellite service (Dish). Cost would start at $19.95/mo without all the current taxes but I'm sure they'll want you to take more services. Sounds pretty shaky if you need to dial 911 in a hurry and coverage is down due to weather.

An AT&T tech might know something, but AFAIK, AT&T isn't even the company
that's responsible. When AT&T was split up in the 80s, the baby bells took
over the installed landlines, local phone service, etc. I'd be surprised if
there is some majic cuttoff date. I expect it will just slowly die off and
how long copper lasts anywhere will be a localized issue. Here in NJ,
some shore communities were the first in the country where the phone company
(Verizon) decided not to replace damaged copper.
You are confusing today's AT&T with the old AT&T. Not the same
company. Today's AT&T came from one or more baby bells merging with
Cingular Wireless. In some parts of the country, AT&T *is* the local
phone company. In other parts, Verizon has that honor. There are
others, too.

On Saturday, January 10, 2015 at 7:37:33 AM UTC-5, Pat wrote:
On Sat, 10 Jan 2015 03:32:46 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Friday, January 9, 2015 at 8:34:57 PM UTC-5, wrote:
I had a recent conversation with a AT&T tech and asked him what the status of old rural landlines for old rural home phones was. He said it all would be abandoned in 5 years (2020). It would be replaced with VOIP over their required satellite service (Dish). Cost would start at $19.95/mo without all the current taxes but I'm sure they'll want you to take more services. Sounds pretty shaky if you need to dial 911 in a hurry and coverage is down due to weather.

An AT&T tech might know something, but AFAIK, AT&T isn't even the company
that's responsible. When AT&T was split up in the 80s, the baby bells took
over the installed landlines, local phone service, etc. I'd be surprised if
there is some majic cuttoff date. I expect it will just slowly die off and
how long copper lasts anywhere will be a localized issue. Here in NJ,
some shore communities were the first in the country where the phone company
(Verizon) decided not to replace damaged copper.
You are confusing today's AT&T with the old AT&T. Not the same
company. Today's AT&T came from one or more baby bells merging with
Cingular Wireless. In some parts of the country, AT&T *is* the local
phone company. In other parts, Verizon has that honor. There are
others, too.

Yes, I see you're right. I didn't realize ATT put part of it's old
self back together again. In fact, I see that they are now apparently the
largest provider of local service in the USA (again).

So, some googling produced this:

http://stopthecap.com/2014/03/03/att...a-and-florida/

"AT&T is likely to be the biggest winner if it successfully scraps its copper network. The company wants to drop landline service completely by 2020, saving the company millions while ending government oversight and eliminating service obligations."

So, the OP/tech are apparently right, that ATT wants to at least try to be
out in 5 years. And it's not just rural, it's everywhere. Still seems
unlikely they will achieve it, but it certainly could happen in some places..

On 1/10/2015 7:37 AM, Pat wrote:

You are confusing today's AT&T with the old AT&T. Not the same
company. Today's AT&T came from one or more baby bells merging with
Cingular Wireless. In some parts of the country, AT&T *is* the local
phone company. In other parts, Verizon has that honor. There are
others, too.


Here is CT, ATT pulled out of the landline business. We are now part of
Frontier. So far, they have doubles my DSL speed.

On 2015-01-10, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Here is CT, ATT pulled out of the landline business. We are now part of
Frontier. So far, they have doubles my DSL speed.

I thought it was still illegal to retire the old POTS networks. What?
They jes leave all that copper in the ground or are they recovering
it? What about thieves?

nb

On Saturday, January 10, 2015 at 12:27:45 PM UTC-5, notbob wrote:
On 2015-01-10, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Here is CT, ATT pulled out of the landline business. We are now part of
Frontier. So far, they have doubles my DSL speed.

I thought it was still illegal to retire the old POTS networks. What?
They jes leave all that copper in the ground or are they recovering
it? What about thieves?

nb

Why would it be "illegal"? They probably have to convince the state
utility commission, but they could certainly do that. Most of that copper
isn't in the ground, it's in the air, strung across miles of poles.
With the price of copper, it's probably worth it for someone to recover it,
maybe they sell it off to a third party to recover, etc.

It's already happened here in NJ. A few of the shore towns hit by
Sandy, Verizon is not replacing the copper.

"trader_4" wrote in message
...
On Saturday, January 10, 2015 at 12:27:45 PM UTC-5, notbob wrote:
On 2015-01-10, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Here is CT, ATT pulled out of the landline business. We are now part of
Frontier. So far, they have doubles my DSL speed.

I thought it was still illegal to retire the old POTS networks. What?
They jes leave all that copper in the ground or are they recovering
it? What about thieves?

nb

Why would it be "illegal"? They probably have to convince the state
utility commission, but they could certainly do that. Most of that copper
isn't in the ground, it's in the air, strung across miles of poles.
With the price of copper, it's probably worth it for someone to recover
it,
maybe they sell it off to a third party to recover, etc.

It's already happened here in NJ. A few of the shore towns hit by
Sandy, Verizon is not replacing the copper.

but they are no doubt replacing it with something better than satellite.

And if you believe that, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you!!!!!

trader_4 wrote:

Yes, I see you're right. I didn't realize ATT put part of it's old
self back together again. In fact, I see that they are now apparently the
largest provider of local service in the USA (again).

I've got AT&T for my long distance provider although I'm not sure why. I
seldom make long distance calls and if I do it's on the cell. Too lazy to
cancel, I guess. Anyway, AT&T doesn't own the local copper. That's
CenturyLink aka Quest aka US West.

On 01/09/2015 07:34 PM, wrote:
I had a recent conversation with a AT&T tech and asked him what the status of old rural landlines for old rural home phones was. He said it all would be abandoned in 5 years (2020). It would be replaced with VOIP over their required satellite service (Dish). Cost would start at $19.95/mo without all the current taxes but I'm sure they'll want you to take more services. Sounds pretty shaky if you need to dial 911 in a hurry and coverage is down due to weather.




$20 seems like a good price

On Saturday, January 10, 2015 at 12:57:07 PM UTC-5, Pico Rico wrote:
"trader_4" wrote in message
...
On Saturday, January 10, 2015 at 12:27:45 PM UTC-5, notbob wrote:
On 2015-01-10, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Here is CT, ATT pulled out of the landline business. We are now part of
Frontier. So far, they have doubles my DSL speed.

I thought it was still illegal to retire the old POTS networks. What?
They jes leave all that copper in the ground or are they recovering
it? What about thieves?

nb

Why would it be "illegal"? They probably have to convince the state
utility commission, but they could certainly do that. Most of that copper
isn't in the ground, it's in the air, strung across miles of poles.
With the price of copper, it's probably worth it for someone to recover
it,
maybe they sell it off to a third party to recover, etc.

It's already happened here in NJ. A few of the shore towns hit by
Sandy, Verizon is not replacing the copper.

but they are no doubt replacing it with something better than satellite.

Yes, IDK what exactly, but some VOIP, FIOS I think, The area has cable,
so that's an alternative too. The real question is how is AT&T going to
get completely out of copper in 5 years in sparsely populated rural areas
where there is no
other infrastructure, ie cable, etc. They surely aren't going to run
fiber all over the place. Would utility regulators let them abandon those
customers? Wonder if OP asked the tech?

On Saturday, January 10, 2015 at 5:44:46 PM UTC-6, trader_4 wrote:
On Saturday, January 10, 2015 at 12:57:07 PM UTC-5, Pico Rico wrote:
"trader_4" wrote in message
...
On Saturday, January 10, 2015 at 12:27:45 PM UTC-5, notbob wrote:
On 2015-01-10, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Here is CT, ATT pulled out of the landline business. We are now part of
Frontier. So far, they have doubles my DSL speed.

I thought it was still illegal to retire the old POTS networks. What?
They jes leave all that copper in the ground or are they recovering
it? What about thieves?

nb

Why would it be "illegal"? They probably have to convince the state
utility commission, but they could certainly do that. Most of that copper
isn't in the ground, it's in the air, strung across miles of poles.
With the price of copper, it's probably worth it for someone to recover
it,
maybe they sell it off to a third party to recover, etc.

It's already happened here in NJ. A few of the shore towns hit by
Sandy, Verizon is not replacing the copper.

but they are no doubt replacing it with something better than satellite..

Yes, IDK what exactly, but some VOIP, FIOS I think, The area has cable,
so that's an alternative too. The real question is how is AT&T going to
get completely out of copper in 5 years in sparsely populated rural areas
where there is no
other infrastructure, ie cable, etc. They surely aren't going to run
fiber all over the place. Would utility regulators let them abandon those
customers? Wonder if OP asked the tech?

The problem I was referring to is mostly hilly rural where there is no cable and only 1 cell carrier @ $155/mo, if you're lucky to get service. The landline is all buried, not air. The line is encapsulated 100 pair #22 wire, so probably more insulation per foot than copper. It's buried about 36" deep so removal is more expensive & trouble than worthwhile to them or thieves.

There was some talk a while back about installing fiber, but the trial was a flop because of cost vs income unless it was a well populated area. Us rural folks are being left out of technology growth except for satellites. Hope a solar flare doesn't fry them & isolate us.

And yeah, state utility regulators are involved. But special interest folks find a way to influence them.

On Friday, January 9, 2015 at 8:34:57 PM UTC-5, wrote:
I had a recent conversation with a AT&T tech and asked him what the status of old rural landlines for old rural home phones was. He said it all would be abandoned in 5 years (2020). It would be replaced with VOIP over their required satellite service (Dish). Cost would start at $19.95/mo without all the current taxes but I'm sure they'll want you to take more services. Sounds pretty shaky if you need to dial 911 in a hurry and coverage is down due to weather.

there are cell vcompanies providing local phone service for as low as 10 bucks a month..........

if you can get any cell service around your home. it can work/\\

with a exterior directional antenna, or cell repeater..

at this point few if any need local phone service.

my great aunt wants it, her verizon phone drop copper failed, after a big fight they replaced the copper line from pole to street.

around here verizon pushes fios. my 2 years with their crap fios service was too much for a lifetime. it was 2 years of hell, before i was able to cancel.

i insited they remove te NID and copper drop, Isaid OK I am putting up a big banner across my lawn FIOS sucks is that what you want?

they removed the drop.

their total lack of customer service was astounding.

if anyone is interested i can post my experience...........

it sucked

On Sat, 10 Jan 2015 09:57:01 -0800, "Pico Rico"
wrote in


"trader_4" wrote in message
...
On Saturday, January 10, 2015 at 12:27:45 PM UTC-5, notbob wrote:
On 2015-01-10, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Here is CT, ATT pulled out of the landline business. We are now part of
Frontier. So far, they have doubles my DSL speed.

I thought it was still illegal to retire the old POTS networks. What?
They jes leave all that copper in the ground or are they recovering
it? What about thieves?

nb

Why would it be "illegal"? They probably have to convince the state
utility commission, but they could certainly do that. Most of that copper
isn't in the ground, it's in the air, strung across miles of poles.
With the price of copper, it's probably worth it for someone to recover
it,
maybe they sell it off to a third party to recover, etc.

It's already happened here in NJ. A few of the shore towns hit by
Sandy, Verizon is not replacing the copper.

but they are no doubt replacing it with something better than satellite.


I have DSL and use about 20Gb/month for $55. The same 20Gb from
Verizon via cell towers would be $150. That's why they want to
abandon copper lines.
--
Web based forums are like subscribing to 10 different newspapers
and having to visit 10 different news stands to pickup each one.
Email list-server groups and USENET are like having all of those
newspapers delivered to your door every morning.

On 10 Jan 2015 17:27:39 GMT, notbob wrote:

On 2015-01-10, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Here is CT, ATT pulled out of the landline business. We are now part of
Frontier. So far, they have doubles my DSL speed.

I thought it was still illegal to retire the old POTS networks. What?
They jes leave all that copper in the ground or are they recovering
it? What about thieves?

nb

They didn't retire it. They sold it to Frontier like he said.

On Saturday, January 10, 2015 at 10:31:07 PM UTC-5, philo* wrote:
On 01/09/2015 07:34 PM, wrote:
I had a recent conversation with a AT&T tech and asked him what the status of old rural landlines for old rural home phones was. He said it all would be abandoned in 5 years (2020). It would be replaced with VOIP over their required satellite service (Dish). Cost would start at $19.95/mo without all the current taxes but I'm sure they'll want you to take more services. Sounds pretty shaky if you need to dial 911 in a hurry and coverage is down due to weather.




$20 seems like a good price

Does VOIP even work via sat? I would think the delay would be a problem.
But I guess if that's the plan, it must work, but I wonder how well?

On Sunday, January 11, 2015 at 4:35:19 AM UTC-5, bob haller wrote:
On Friday, January 9, 2015 at 8:34:57 PM UTC-5, wrote:
I had a recent conversation with a AT&T tech and asked him what the status of old rural landlines for old rural home phones was. He said it all would be abandoned in 5 years (2020). It would be replaced with VOIP over their required satellite service (Dish). Cost would start at $19.95/mo without all the current taxes but I'm sure they'll want you to take more services. Sounds pretty shaky if you need to dial 911 in a hurry and coverage is down due to weather.

there are cell vcompanies providing local phone service for as low as 10 bucks a month..........

if you can get any cell service around your home. it can work/\\

I think the problem there is that in those very rural areas,
the choice of cell phone carriers is limited, if available at all.
I'd wonder how many are going to find one at all, let alone at $10 a month.
Also, the $10 a month cell phone plans I've seen, you get maybe 200 mins,
if that. With existing copper, you can talk to your friends and family
locally all you want and even long distance is cheap. For unlimited
voice on cell, it's typically $35 - $40 a month. But that still isn't
bad, provided one can get it where the need it.
..

trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, January 11, 2015 at 4:35:19 AM UTC-5, bob haller wrote:
On Friday, January 9, 2015 at 8:34:57 PM UTC-5,
wrote:
I had a recent conversation with a AT&T tech and asked him what the
status of old rural landlines for old rural home phones was. He
said it all would be abandoned in 5 years (2020). It would be
replaced with VOIP over their required satellite service (Dish).
Cost would start at $19.95/mo without all the current taxes but I'm
sure they'll want you to take more services. Sounds pretty shaky
if you need to dial 911 in a hurry and coverage is down due to
weather.

there are cell vcompanies providing local phone service for as low
as 10 bucks a month..........

if you can get any cell service around your home. it can work/\\

I think the problem there is that in those very rural areas,
the choice of cell phone carriers is limited, if available at all.
I'd wonder how many are going to find one at all, let alone at $10 a
month.
Also, the $10 a month cell phone plans I've seen, you get maybe 200
mins,
if that. With existing copper, you can talk to your friends and
family
locally all you want and even long distance is cheap. For unlimited
voice on cell, it's typically $35 - $40 a month. But that still isn't
bad, provided one can get it where the need it.
.

We have a landline thru the local provider because cell phones don't work
down here in The Holler and they are the only option besides satellite for
internet - which from what I've heard really really sucks .
We have 2 of the pay-as-you-go cell phones for use when we're out and
about , but generally only use them for emergency or long distance calls -
we don't have LD service on the land line because of the cost .
--
Snag

On 2015-01-11, Pat wrote:

They didn't retire it. They sold it to Frontier like he said.

Which begs the obvious question: So why does Frontier not provide
landline service? What is Frontier doing with all that copper?

nb

On Sunday, January 11, 2015 at 12:36:20 PM UTC-5, notbob wrote:
On 2015-01-11, Pat wrote:

They didn't retire it. They sold it to Frontier like he said.

Which begs the obvious question: So why does Frontier not provide
landline service? What is Frontier doing with all that copper?

nb

Has anyone said that Frontier isn't still providing landline service
on copper? The reason all providers want to get out of copper is
that it's a whole separate, dying, costly infrastructure to maintain
and probably has lousy profit margins compared to VOIP.
The future is VOIP over infrastructure that supports not only that,
but cable TV, interent, etc.

On 1/11/2015 12:36 PM, notbob wrote:
On 2015-01-11, Pat wrote:

They didn't retire it. They sold it to Frontier like he said.

Which begs the obvious question: So why does Frontier not provide
landline service? What is Frontier doing with all that copper?

nb


The do. Frontier is now our landline and they use the exiting copper
wires. . ATT is only wireless in CT and eventually, the rest of the
states.

On Sunday, January 11, 2015 at 3:15:50 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 11 Jan 2015 10:49:23 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Sunday, January 11, 2015 at 12:36:20 PM UTC-5, notbob wrote:
On 2015-01-11, Pat wrote:

They didn't retire it. They sold it to Frontier like he said.

Which begs the obvious question: So why does Frontier not provide
landline service? What is Frontier doing with all that copper?

nb

Has anyone said that Frontier isn't still providing landline service
on copper? The reason all providers want to get out of copper is
that it's a whole separate, dying, costly infrastructure to maintain
and probably has lousy profit margins compared to VOIP.
The future is VOIP over infrastructure that supports not only that,
but cable TV, interent, etc.

Century Link is doing all of that with copper.

By getting out of copper I mean the typical twisted pair, 22g? stuff, ie the old installed base that POTS runs on and that we're talking about. If
Century is doing cable TV, internet and VOIP on copper it must be on coax
or similar, not the old POTS stuff.

On Monday, January 12, 2015 at 12:31:01 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 11 Jan 2015 12:30:32 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Sunday, January 11, 2015 at 3:15:50 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 11 Jan 2015 10:49:23 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Sunday, January 11, 2015 at 12:36:20 PM UTC-5, notbob wrote:
On 2015-01-11, Pat wrote:

They didn't retire it. They sold it to Frontier like he said.

Which begs the obvious question: So why does Frontier not provide
landline service? What is Frontier doing with all that copper?

nb

Has anyone said that Frontier isn't still providing landline service
on copper? The reason all providers want to get out of copper is
that it's a whole separate, dying, costly infrastructure to maintain
and probably has lousy profit margins compared to VOIP.
The future is VOIP over infrastructure that supports not only that,
but cable TV, interent, etc.

Century Link is doing all of that with copper.

By getting out of copper I mean the typical twisted pair, 22g? stuff, ie the old installed base that POTS runs on and that we're talking about. If
Century is doing cable TV, internet and VOIP on copper it must be on coax
or similar, not the old POTS stuff.

Nope Regular old CAT 3, 3 pair flooded burial cable. I am not sure how
they are getting away with it but I assume it is multiple channels of
data on the wire, merged in the DSL modem. I also think they are using
2 pair if you have the TV package.
I am getting 10 meg DSL on a single pair tho.
The fiber concentrator is about a mile away.

I took a look at Century website, it looks like the TV is via DirectTV,
ie sat, not copper, no? So, from what I see, looks like they have a
higher speed DSL service for the internet and phone part.

IDK what "flooded" cable is. gel filled? But whatever it is, they are
using 3 pairs and only going 1 mile at which point you have fiber.
Doesn't sound like what is strung up on the poles in rural America for POTS,
been there for 50 years, has unknown number of taps, bridges, etc,
that we're talking about. It's apparently higher speed DSL, which
has all the problems DSL has always had, because it relies on the old,
existing copper. I'm sure you're aware of the iffy nature of DSL.
I would agree that it can be part of the solution
for some areas. Even then, the phone company is going to have
to put in new infrastructure, eg the fiber part to get close to the
last mile or so, taking out that part of the copper. I also wonder
if you'd find most rural places with limited infrastructure have enough pairs
to give everybody 3?

Perhaps I should have said "most providers" want to get out of copper.
The OP's experience with ATT, apparently the largest local phone
company in the USA, being an example. The broader problem and driving
force behind it is that in probably 90% of the customer base where they
have copper, better competing alternatives are already available, eg
cable, fiber. They definitely want to get out of maintaining that copper infrastructure, because it'costly to maintain, customers have been leaving it
in droves and it's not competitive at all with the alternatives.

On 1/10/2015 11:03 PM, wrote:

There was some talk a while back about installing fiber, but the
trial was a flop because of cost vs income unless it was a well
populated area. Us rural folks are being left out of technology
growth except for satellites. Hope a solar flare doesn't fry them
& isolate us.

And yeah, state utility regulators are involved. But special
interest folks find a way to influence them.


You chose to live in a rural area, no doubt in part to 'get away from
it all'. Every decision comes with a price, and the price of getting
away from it all is the additional expense of bringing it to you once
you change your mind.

You can enjoy your rural amenities, or move to a more
densely-populated area with better internet options. Or, you can make
the argument that providing internet service to rural areas should be
considered a common good, a public utility, same as rural
electrification and postal delivery - and like them, provided as a
government service paid for via taxpayers. Of course, if you take that
approach, doubtless some of your neighbors and your local internet
provider will oppose it. If you succeed in persuading enough people to
make the local government seriously consider it, at that point your
local internet provider will either file suit against the government,
or suddenly announce that providing high-speed internet to rural
households *is* economically feasible after all, just to block the
public development of actual competition. It's played out both of
those ways in the state I live in.

On 1/11/2015 11:36 AM, notbob wrote:
On 2015-01-11, Pat wrote:

They didn't retire it. They sold it to Frontier like he said.

Which begs the obvious question: So why does Frontier not provide
landline service? What is Frontier doing with all that copper?


They acquire it in order to acquire local monoply rights as the
internet provider. They have no interest in supporting the lines. It's
cheaper for them to lose customers and pay the fines if/when customers
file complaints with the PUC than to perform the necessary maintenance
on the lines. If you search Frontier and rural online you'll find tons
of complaints about their poor service and decaying infrastructure.

On 01/12/2015 8:04 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, January 12, 2015 at 12:31:01 AM UTC-5, wrote:
....

Nope Regular old CAT 3, 3 pair flooded burial cable. I am not sure how
they are getting away with it but I assume it is multiple channels of
data on the wire, merged in the DSL modem. I also think they are using
2 pair if you have the TV package.
I am getting 10 meg DSL on a single pair tho.
The fiber concentrator is about a mile away.

I took a look at Century website, it looks like the TV is via DirectTV,
ie sat, not copper, no? So, from what I see, looks like they have a
higher speed DSL service for the internet and phone part.

IDK what "flooded" cable is. gel filled? But whatever it is, they are
using 3 pairs and only going 1 mile at which point you have fiber.
Doesn't sound like what is strung up on the poles in rural America for POTS,
been there for 50 years, has unknown number of taps, bridges, etc,
that we're talking about. It's apparently higher speed DSL, which
has all the problems DSL has always had, because it relies on the old,
existing copper. I'm sure you're aware of the iffy nature of DSL.
I would agree that it can be part of the solution
for some areas. Even then, the phone company is going to have
to put in new infrastructure, eg the fiber part to get close to the
last mile or so, taking out that part of the copper. I also wonder
if you'd find most rural places with limited infrastructure have enough pairs
to give everybody 3?
....

Yeah, there's no way they're doing any of that over the "old
copper"...we still have the ATT (Southwestern) hard line to the house
for precisely the reason others noted; it's rural, we have long-run
electric service lines from co-op that are subject to outages w/ only
one or two meters being affected and it still works often when other
doesn't because while Cu, it is almost all buried line now rather than
on-pole so ice doesn't take it down.

BUT, those advantages aside, we're _only_ 5 mi or so from the central
station in town and the dialup connection could never reach even 56k.
W/ a negotiating modem, occasionally might see 44k, but it was rare.

We'll keep the landline as long as it is available for those reasons,
because in bad weather the cell isn't all that reliable and while we
know do have a wireless 4G connection, it also takes power...

--

On 01/12/2015 8:16 AM, Moe DeLoughan wrote:
....

... a public utility, same as rural electrification ...

"Rural electrification" is _NOT_ a public utility; they are member-owned
cooperatives with only some accessibility to loan guarantees provided
via the Rural Electrification Act.

--

On 1/12/2015 9:19 AM, dpb wrote:
On 01/12/2015 8:16 AM, Moe DeLoughan wrote:
...

... a public utility, same as rural electrification ...

"Rural electrification" is _NOT_ a public utility; they are
member-owned cooperatives with only some accessibility to loan
guarantees provided via the Rural Electrification Act.


Cooperatives provide the public utility, which is the service to the
public of something such as phone, electricity, or water. Only
difference is that a coop is member owned, as compared to an investor
owned or privately held company. Either way, the point is the same:
the federal government brought electricity to rural areas. It took FDR
to propose it as part of his New Deal and an act of Congress to
provide public money to make it happen, 'cause the private sector said
Nope, there's no profit in doing that.

"Moe DeLoughan" wrote in message
...
On 1/12/2015 9:19 AM, dpb wrote:
On 01/12/2015 8:16 AM, Moe DeLoughan wrote:
...

... a public utility, same as rural electrification ...

"Rural electrification" is _NOT_ a public utility; they are
member-owned cooperatives with only some accessibility to loan
guarantees provided via the Rural Electrification Act.


Cooperatives provide the public utility, which is the service to the
public of something such as phone, electricity, or water. Only difference
is that a coop is member owned, as compared to an investor owned or
privately held company. Either way, the point is the same: the federal
government brought electricity to rural areas. It took FDR to propose it
as part of his New Deal and an act of Congress to provide public money to
make it happen, 'cause the private sector said Nope, there's no profit in
doing that.

Of course this might have been FDR's first step at taking over the electric
service for the entire country, which he tried to do while running the
publicly owned utilities into bankruptcy. Thankfully, we have checks and
balances.

On Monday, January 12, 2015 at 10:55:33 AM UTC-5, wrote:


Around here Century Link is partnered with Dish but they are starting
to offer Prizm which is their name for the bundled service. You give
up your Dish service and get it all down the existing copper.

IDK what "flooded" cable is. gel filled?

Yes, silicone filled 3 pair cat 3.


Which isn't the typical installed base of copper POTS that
has been there for 50 years in many cases. I'm curious as to when
and why they installed that? If they had to bury it, install it,
etc, why would any company lay that instead of fiber, coax, that
could give 100X the bandwidth?



But whatever it is, they are
using 3 pairs and only going 1 mile at which point you have fiber.

They are only using a single pair for POTS and DSL. I understood they
hook up another pair if you get TV

If you get TV through a twisted pair, where is the channel selection done?
Must be at the far end. You couldn't possibly put all the channels that
customers want today on one wire, like is done with cable.


Doesn't sound like what is strung up on the poles in rural America for POTS,
been there for 50 years, has unknown number of taps, bridges, etc,
that we're talking about. It's apparently higher speed DSL, which
has all the problems DSL has always had, because it relies on the old,
existing copper. I'm sure you're aware of the iffy nature of DSL.
I would agree that it can be part of the solution
for some areas. Even then, the phone company is going to have
to put in new infrastructure, eg the fiber part to get close to the
last mile or so, taking out that part of the copper. I also wonder
if you'd find most rural places with limited infrastructure have enough pairs
to give everybody 3?

With the number of people ditching POTS, "pairs" is not a problem and
as I said, I think they only need 2 pair for the bundle.

There you have the dual edge sword. People are ditching POTS where they can and
moving to better solutions. I'll bet in many of those cases, the DSL
twisted pair offering isn't as good as the other options that are available,
so the freed up lines aren't going to do much good.
And in the rural areas we're talking about, like the OP, people aren't
ditching POTS, because it's the only local phone service.


They will need good copper but what they are using here is what was
installed in the 1980s when Sprint took over from United Telephone.


I'll bet many rural areas they don't have gel filled twisted pair.
We don't have it here in suburban NJ. We also went through this headache
back in the late 80s, when ISDN was going to give voice plus another
64Kbit channel for data. The problem was that the transceivers had to
deal with the existing installed base of wire and it was a mess.
A lot of time was spend trying to profile it, figure out what rates
they could support across the installed base of the whole country.
The issues were that there were bridge taps,
wire gauge changes, etc that all created problems and made transmission
more difficult. I was involved
in it at that point and I don't recall anyone saying, no problem,
we have gel filled twisted pair to work with. The best compromise was
144Kbits per sec, which became the ISDN standard.

Ultimately, ISDN went nowhere. Later, as technology improved,
DSL came along, which was basically the same thing, using the
existing wire digitally, but at higher rates. Nobody replaced the
wire, the whole point was *not* to have to have better wire. So,
I'm real skeptical that much of the installed POTS wiring is gel
filled. It might be in certain locations, for whatever reason.
For example this Century cable is apparently buried. Here in
suburban NJ, it's strung on poles. Same polls tha have been
there for 50 years. In towns here, it's buried, IDK what actually
they have for wire product.




Perhaps I should have said "most providers" want to get out of copper.
The OP's experience with ATT, apparently the largest local phone
company in the USA, being an example. The broader problem and driving
force behind it is that in probably 90% of the customer base where they
have copper, better competing alternatives are already available, eg
cable, fiber. They definitely want to get out of maintaining that copper infrastructure, because it'costly to maintain, customers have been leaving it
in droves and it's not competitive at all with the alternatives.

It looks like Century Link is trying to squeeze a little more life out
of their copper infrastructure and remain a player against comcast.

Yes, I'd agree with that assessment. Which is why I modified my
statement that *all* providers are getting out of copper to "most".
I can see it as a fit in some places, for some people, etc. I don't
see it doing much in the way of most providers moving away from copper
though.


Comcast sucks to badly around here that it will not be a huge problem.
CL did have contractors working on all of the tombstones, cleaning up
bad splices and generally freshening up the installations before they
rolled out Prizm here but it is still the same basic copper.
I understand if the telco still has old pulp cable on the poles and
you are seeing nitrogen bottles along the road, they are not likely to
be able to support DSL but I think most places were upgraded sometime
in the last 5 decades.

Apparently not if you look at all the problems with DSL. I couldn't
get it from Verizon, here in suburban NJ. And lots of people that
do get it, report slow speeds, reliability issues, etc. And I
have cable, some nearby towns also have FIOS in addition to cable,
so the Verizon copper is dying. And Verizon is seeking to get out of
copper POTS infrastructure.

On 2015-01-12, wrote:

They are only using a single pair for POTS and DSL. I understood they
hook up another pair if you get TV

Not that I'm aware.

I have CL w/ DSL. I don't subscribe to TV, but have a Roku that gives
me lotsa stuff (netflix, youtube, etc). As far as I'm aware, I'm
still on a single twisted pair (POTS). I get an actual 1.2M per
second, dwnld.

nb

On 1/9/2015 8:34 PM, wrote:
I had a recent conversation with a AT&T tech and asked him what the status of old rural landlines for old rural home phones was. He said it all would be abandoned in 5 years (2020). It would be replaced with VOIP over their required satellite service (Dish). Cost would start at $19.95/mo without all the current taxes but I'm sure they'll want you to take more services. Sounds pretty shaky if you need to dial 911 in a hurry and coverage is down due to weather.

Interesting in that they switched me to FIOS line a couple of years ago
as copper was dying. I still have one phone but switched other to
Comcast cable as cheaper package.

Verizon sends me the same bill as with copper and you get none of the
extra services that come free with Comcast like caller id and long
distance. Think phone company wants to keep old customers that don't
have other services.

If dish is only way you can get internet and TV, maybe they have a
package that include phone and you can eliminate the phone company.

On Sun, 11 Jan 2015 08:13:23 -0700, trader_4 wrote:

On Saturday, January 10, 2015 at 10:31:07 PM UTC-5, philo* wrote:
On 01/09/2015 07:34 PM, wrote:
I had a recent conversation with a AT&T tech and asked him what the
status of old rural landlines for old rural home phones was. He said
it all would be abandoned in 5 years (2020). It would be replaced with
VOIP over their required satellite service (Dish). Cost would start at
$19.95/mo without all the current taxes but I'm sure they'll want you
to take more services. Sounds pretty shaky if you need to dial 911 in
a hurry and coverage is down due to weather.




$20 seems like a good price

Does VOIP even work via sat? I would think the delay would be a problem.
But I guess if that's the plan, it must work, but I wonder how well?


It is NOT recommended for use with skype. The gaps/pauses are too
distracting

notbob wrote:
On 2015-01-12, wrote:

They are only using a single pair for POTS and DSL. I understood they
hook up another pair if you get TV

Not that I'm aware.

I have CL w/ DSL. I don't subscribe to TV, but have a Roku that gives
me lotsa stuff (netflix, youtube, etc). As far as I'm aware, I'm
still on a single twisted pair (POTS). I get an actual 1.2M per
second, dwnld.

nb

We live about 11 miles from town , and a mile+ off the paved road . I'm
not certain they've buried fiber optic cable on the highway past our place
(but I do know there is FI cable in the area and more being laid) , but I've
got a 6Mb/756Kb/sec DSL connection on my landline . Our service comes in
overhead to a tombstone that splits it out to several homes nearby and comes
onto my property underground - 4 twisted pairs in the cable to my house (I
know this because I accidently cut it when digging for foundation supports
for our house) .
--
Snag