I'm going to install network cable like in this guide (this guy is
installing coax cable, but the idea is the same):
http://www.prettyhandygirl.com/2013/...tallation.html

When drilling a hole in the floor between two walls, should I put the hole
in the middle, or at the bottom of one of the walls?

In the guide, the person apparently drilled at the bottom of one wall and
avoided drilling into the beam below the floor board. Is this better because
it doesn't weaken the structure of the house, or is it insignificant?

On Mon, 3 Feb 2014 18:58:11 -0800, "bob" wrote:

I'm going to install network cable like in this guide (this guy is
installing coax cable, but the idea is the same):
http://www.prettyhandygirl.com/2013/...tallation.html

When drilling a hole in the floor between two walls, should I put the hole
in the middle, or at the bottom of one of the walls?

In the guide, the person apparently drilled at the bottom of one wall and
avoided drilling into the beam below the floor board. Is this better because
it doesn't weaken the structure of the house, or is it insignificant?

Unless you are doing some high dollar install, I would just run the
cable up through the floor next to the wall.

Cutting in a box does look more professional in case you ever move the
furniture, but for most homes it really isn't necessary or noticeable.

If you use a 5/8 wood bit (or larger) you can install the cable with
the ends on.

On Monday, February 3, 2014 9:58:11 PM UTC-5, bob wrote:
I'm going to install network cable like in this guide (this guy is

installing coax cable, but the idea is the same):

http://www.prettyhandygirl.com/2013/...tallation.html



When drilling a hole in the floor between two walls, should I put the hole

in the middle, or at the bottom of one of the walls?



Maybe I'm confused here, but how does one drill a hole
in the floor between two walls and have a choice of
the hole being in the middle or bottom of the wall?

On Mon, 3 Feb 2014 18:58:11 -0800, "bob" wrote:

I'm going to install network cable like in this guide (this guy is
installing coax cable, but the idea is the same):
http://www.prettyhandygirl.com/2013/...tallation.html

What is below this floor, a crawl space or an unfinished basement or
what?

Is this url assuming that a 3/8 x 54 Auger Drill Bit will be
flexible? Maybe they are all? I bought a flexible bit at a telephone
store that had all sorts of comm. hardware. They went out of business
in a few years but by then Home Depot had them.

Flexible is more expensive, but it will work from wall switch height too
not just from 12" high.

It's not much more money to get 72", I'm not sure I ever needed that,
but it seemed worth the comparitively small amount extra. 6' is a
little harder to drill with, since 2 or even 4 feet are out of the wall
sometimes, but not that much harder.

I was putting in a wired burglar alarm, and phone lines, and cable from
a central VCR. Some of the wires were from the attic down. That was
much easier becuase the top of the wall was plain as day under the
insulation. I still need to do one network cable, or maybe two.
Temporarily, going on two years, my computer is in the basement and the
router is on the second floor and the cable goes over doors and down
through the litle area between each half-fligh of steps.

When drilling a hole in the floor between two walls, should I put the hole
in the middle, or at the bottom of one of the walls?

I wonder what Trader wondered.

They do make, for use with flexible drill bits, a guide, a shiny
L-shaped thing, with the metal folded over and made into a hook at one
endr, that goes into the hole and presses against the drill shaft at the
level of the hole and also 4 inches down. I bought that but then only
used it once or twice in special situations, and even those times I
don't think it worked well.

It was hard to use with one hand while drilling with the other. It was
hard to push up hard enough on the guide to get the bit closer to me.
And I really had no idea which spot would be better than another.
(Also, since my bit was 6 feet long, I often was so far from the wall, I
couldn't possibly use the guide. :-) )

I made a bunch of holes that were just fine and I only hit a joist once.
I didn't time how long I'd been drilling, so I couldn't compare to the
normal hole, but I thought it was taking a long time and if I weren't
stubborn, I could have pulled the drill out and even without the guide,
likely missed the joist the second time.

In the guide, the person apparently drilled at the bottom of one wall and
avoided drilling into the beam below the floor board. Is this better because
it doesn't weaken the structure of the house, or is it insignificant?

The hole won't significantly weaken the house, but it will take forever
to drill vertically through a floor joist or beam, at least if you're
limited to your only flexible drill bit. Don't ask me how I know that.

You could make a drawing of the joists in your basement/crawl space with
measurements, mostly the distance between them, and then when upstairs
find some landmark to work from and perhaps figure out where any joists
are.

It's good to do your own work because if you pay any utility to do it,
they'll probably send a guy who has time constraints.

You should also know that besides wall plates that are dedicated to one
function, like network cable or co-ax, they make plates with square
holes that you can choose what kind of connector to put in, and more to
my point, they make them with scoops pointing downwards, so you can't
see into the wall. (I guess that would be like looking at someone's
underware) but there is room for several cables, none of which
terminate at the wall plate but go straight on to the devices they
connect to.

On Mon, 3 Feb 2014 18:58:11 -0800, "bob" wrote:

I'm going to install network cable like in this guide (this guy is
installing coax cable, but the idea is the same):
http://www.prettyhandygirl.com/2013/...tallation.html

When drilling a hole in the floor between two walls, should I put the hole
in the middle, or at the bottom of one of the walls?

In the guide, the person apparently drilled at the bottom of one wall and
avoided drilling into the beam below the floor board. Is this better because
it doesn't weaken the structure of the house, or is it insignificant?

I came across this that might interest you. I don't know if it
actually covers your question.

http://diy.stackexchange.com/questio...oles-in-joists

On Mon, 3 Feb 2014 18:58:11 -0800, "bob" wrote:

I'm going to install network cable like in this guide (this guy is
installing coax cable, but the idea is the same):
http://www.prettyhandygirl.com/2013/...tallation.html

When drilling a hole in the floor between two walls, should I put the hole
in the middle, or at the bottom of one of the walls?

In the guide, the person apparently drilled at the bottom of one wall and
avoided drilling into the beam below the floor board. Is this better because
it doesn't weaken the structure of the house, or is it insignificant?

If you're coming from the basement you'll only have to drill through a
sole plate, if that. The sole plate isn't a beam.
I've found that places near HVAC vents work for me.
It really depends on the construction of your house.
I've cabled every room in the house with one only place that I drilled
through a sole plate,
A cable installer drilled through a closet floor when I first had
cable installed. Then the only TV was in the living room, and it
shared a wall with the closet.
The basement under the living room had a finished ceiling, and he
asked me before he did it. I didn't like it, but the alternative
wasn't acceptable.
It's only a short run right next to wall, and has posed no problems.

bob wrote:
I'm going to install network cable like in this guide (this guy is
installing coax cable, but the idea is the same):
http://www.prettyhandygirl.com/2013/...tallation.html

When drilling a hole in the floor between two walls, should I put the
hole in the middle, or at the bottom of one of the walls?

In the guide, the person apparently drilled at the bottom of one wall
and avoided drilling into the beam below the floor board. Is this
better because it doesn't weaken the structure of the house, or is it
insignificant?

I think it is confusing what you are asking and what you want to do. Are
you just running one network cable or are you trying to wire several
different locations/rooms with network cable with a centrally located patch
panel?

If it is just one network cable, is it going to come up from below in an
open ceiling basement, or down from above in an unfinished attic space with
no attic floor?

More information is needed for anyone to be able to help with this.

On Tue, 4 Feb 2014 13:53:55 -0500, "TomR" wrote:

bob wrote:
I'm going to install network cable like in this guide (this guy is
installing coax cable, but the idea is the same):
http://www.prettyhandygirl.com/2013/...tallation.html

When drilling a hole in the floor between two walls, should I put the
hole in the middle, or at the bottom of one of the walls?

In the guide, the person apparently drilled at the bottom of one wall
and avoided drilling into the beam below the floor board. Is this
better because it doesn't weaken the structure of the house, or is it
insignificant?

I think it is confusing what you are asking and what you want to do. Are
you just running one network cable or are you trying to wire several
different locations/rooms with network cable with a centrally located patch
panel?

If it is just one network cable, is it going to come up from below in an
open ceiling basement, or down from above in an unfinished attic space with
no attic floor?

If you looked at his url, I think you'll find it's neither of these two.
He wants to go down from the room where the wire will end into the
basement. If he were going up from the basement, it would be hard
though maybe not impossible to tell where the walls are above. It would
be even harder to tell where the studs in that wall are.

Vic is right: The heating vent grills are at the end of heating ducts,
which almost always run between joists in the basement ceiling, just
about centered between 2 of them usually. If the wall you, the OP, are
putting the wire in is parallel to a rectangular heating vent grill****,
you can use one of those vents to figure out where the joists next to it
are, and since joists are every 16 inches or whatever you measure in the
basement, you can calculate where the other joists are.

***If you can't see the ducts from the basement, you could remove one of
the grills and see which direction the duct is going, maybe see where
the joists are. The orientation of a rectangular grill is not full
proof of which direction the duct comes from.

If the wall is perpedicular to the grill, maybe the whole wall is over a
joist**, or it's not. Once you calculate, maybe you'll use the floor
outside the wall. **Hey, maybe that's why I drilled through one.

More information is needed for anyone to be able to help with this.

"micky" wrote in message

stuff snipped

The hole won't significantly weaken the house, but it will take forever
to drill vertically through a floor joist or beam, at least if you're
limited to your only flexible drill bit. Don't ask me how I know that.

I guess you found out the same way that I did. I would love to see how an
experienced cable jockey uses those long flex bits because I never did get
the hang of them. That tool you described that applies downward pressure
sounds interesting but it doesn't sound like it was very helpful.

When I rewired this house, I just stuck with 18" twist drills and those
speed auger bits whose name escapes me at the moment - damn - this senility
problem just keeps getting worse! Forstner! At least I didn't have to
Google it to remember. I just read an article that said that older people's
memory retrievals are slower because they have so much data stored in their
head that access time slows down.

http://newoldage.blogs.nytimes.com/2...a-fuller-mind/

I ended up using my "fox and hound" tester to make sure I wasn't drilling
into a floor joist from above. It mostly worked. (-: The biggest problem
I had drilling from floor to floor was hitting nails. The Forstner bit can
be resharpened pretty easily with a Dremel tool, at least for the first half
dozen nails or so. Then there's not enough left of the cutting twist to
sharpen anymore.

--
Bobby G.

On Thu, 6 Feb 2014 09:52:46 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"micky" wrote in message

stuff snipped

The hole won't significantly weaken the house, but it will take forever
to drill vertically through a floor joist or beam, at least if you're
limited to your only flexible drill bit. Don't ask me how I know that.

I guess you found out the same way that I did. I would love to see how an
experienced cable jockey uses those long flex bits because I never did get
the hang of them. That tool you described that applies downward pressure
sounds interesting but it doesn't sound like it was very helpful.

No, it wasn't. It's shaped like an L, each part about 14" long, made
from shiny steel about 1/2" wide and 1/4" or less thick. I think it
has a twist where the bend of the L is. One end is bent back to make
the handle, and the other end I think is also bent back.

Maybe if I did this for months I'd have gotten better able to use the
tool, though maybe not. I think it was just their best effort to make
some sort of tool that might work.


When I rewired this house, I just stuck with 18" twist drills and those
speed auger bits whose name escapes me at the moment - damn - this senility
problem just keeps getting worse! Forstner! At least I didn't have to
Google it to remember. I just read an article that said that older people's
memory retrievals are slower because they have so much data stored in their
head that access time slows down.

http://newoldage.blogs.nytimes.com/2...a-fuller-mind/

Sherlock Holmes said that eventually our brains got full and then
everytie we learned something new, we had to throw away something old.
But I'm not saying he's right.

It doesnt' matter if, judging by phyical brain wrinkles, actual wrinkles
seen during an autopsy, humans only use 20% of their brains, or whatever
they say. Perhaps that is our maximum. Maybe we don't have enough of
some enzyme or other chemical to use the rest. Percent of wrinkling
isn't the only factor to consider.

Another study I heard on NPR says that scientists used to think that
children under 3? were not capable of forming memories, but some study
implied they made many memories but forgot them sooner, that the rate of
forgetting was high until age 6 when it slowed a lot and didn't get high
again until old age.

OTOH, without the ability to forget, we might have trouble finding our
car because we'd remember where we parked it 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 days ago
as well. And we would perhaps be tormented by every bad thing that had
happened, as well as uplifted by every good thing that had ever happened
to us.

I ended up using my "fox and hound" tester to make sure I wasn't drilling
into a floor joist from above. It mostly worked. (-: The biggest problem
I had drilling from floor to floor was hitting nails. The Forstner bit can
be resharpened pretty easily with a Dremel tool, at least for the first half
dozen nails or so. Then there's not enough left of the cutting twist to
sharpen anymore.

Hmm.

"micky" wrote in message
wrote:
"micky" wrote in message

stuff snipped

I guess you found out the same way that I did. I would love to see how
an
experienced cable jockey uses those long flex bits because I never did
get
the hang of them. That tool you described that applies downward pressure
sounds interesting but it doesn't sound like it was very helpful.

No, it wasn't. It's shaped like an L, each part about 14" long, made
from shiny steel about 1/2" wide and 1/4" or less thick. I think it
has a twist where the bend of the L is. One end is bent back to make
the handle, and the other end I think is also bent back.

Maybe if I did this for months I'd have gotten better able to use the
tool, though maybe not. I think it was just their best effort to make
some sort of tool that might work.

Yes, long flex bits were a major disappointment for me, but it could be that
there's a technique to using them that eludes me. More than one time I've
watched Hometime or TOH and watched them do something *correctly* that I had
been doing wrong for years. One thing that especially comes to mind is
drywall work. While my technique was not as bad as my first business
partner who would lather on a mountain of mud and then spend hours sanding
it down with a belt sander, it was still not good. The most important thing
I learned from TOH was to have a good selection of trowels, especially very
wide ones.

When I rewired this house, I just stuck with 18" twist drills and those
speed auger bits whose name escapes me at the moment - damn - this
senility
problem just keeps getting worse! Forstner! At least I didn't have to
Google it to remember. I just read an article that said that older
people's
memory retrievals are slower because they have so much data stored in
their
head that access time slows down.


http://newoldage.blogs.nytimes.com/2...may-just-be-a-
fuller-mind/

Sherlock Holmes said that eventually our brains got full and then
everytie we learned something new, we had to throw away something old.
But I'm not saying he's right.

He may have been correct, at least according to these studies. When you
think about how much of your life you can remember in great detail, it's
amazing it all fits.

It doesnt' matter if, judging by phyical brain wrinkles, actual wrinkles
seen during an autopsy, humans only use 20% of their brains, or whatever
they say. Perhaps that is our maximum. Maybe we don't have enough of
some enzyme or other chemical to use the rest. Percent of wrinkling
isn't the only factor to consider.

I think that 20% number has been debunked. We may be using only 20% of our
total brain capacity when executing any one task, but that's sort of like
driving a car at 20 MPH that can do 100 MPH when it's required.

Another study I heard on NPR says that scientists used to think that
children under 3? were not capable of forming memories, but some study
implied they made many memories but forgot them sooner, that the rate of
forgetting was high until age 6 when it slowed a lot and didn't get high
again until old age.

Infant and animal studies are notorious for dubious conclusions because the
study participants are unable to talk so a lot of information has to be
inferred - often quite incorrectly.

OTOH, without the ability to forget, we might have trouble finding our
car because we'd remember where we parked it 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 days ago
as well. And we would perhaps be tormented by every bad thing that had
happened, as well as uplifted by every good thing that had ever happened
to us.

Hey, I have a recurring nightmare, possibly from nearly getting heat stroke
looking for a white rental car in a Phoenix parking lot at noon, of not
being able to find my car. Part of it stems from the accursed alternate
side of the street parking I grew up with in NYC. You'd awaken at 5AM in a
sweat wondering if your car was on the correct side of the street.

I ended up using my "fox and hound" tester to make sure I wasn't drilling
into a floor joist from above. It mostly worked. (-: The biggest
problem
I had drilling from floor to floor was hitting nails. The Forstner bit
can
be resharpened pretty easily with a Dremel tool, at least for the first
half
dozen nails or so. Then there's not enough left of the cutting twist to
sharpen anymore.

Hmm.

The bottom line for me when it came to heavying up the wiring in this house
was to bite the bullet and admit I would have to replaster and repaint.
Once you make that choice, re-wiring gets a lot easier because you can just
chisel out channels for the new wires.

--
Bobby G.

On Friday, February 7, 2014 6:43:54 AM UTC-5, Robert Green wrote:
"micky" wrote in message

wrote:

"micky" wrote in message



stuff snipped



I guess you found out the same way that I did. I would love to see how

an

experienced cable jockey uses those long flex bits because I never did

get

the hang of them. That tool you described that applies downward pressure

sounds interesting but it doesn't sound like it was very helpful.



No, it wasn't. It's shaped like an L, each part about 14" long, made

from shiny steel about 1/2" wide and 1/4" or less thick. I think it

has a twist where the bend of the L is. One end is bent back to make

the handle, and the other end I think is also bent back.



Maybe if I did this for months I'd have gotten better able to use the

tool, though maybe not. I think it was just their best effort to make

some sort of tool that might work.



Yes, long flex bits were a major disappointment for me, but it could be that

there's a technique to using them that eludes me.

Forget about all that, I still don't understand the question:

"When drilling a hole in the floor between two walls, should I put the hole
in the middle, or at the bottom of one of the walls? "

Clearly from the online example he found, he's drilling a hole inside
the wall, so what's up with the part about "middle" or "bottom" of the wall?

And for technique, if it's basement underneath, you can usually locate where
the wall sits by any electrical wires, heating ducts, water pipes, etc
that run up into that wall. Then you can drill up from the basement
and avoid the long bit.

On Fri, 7 Feb 2014 06:43:54 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"micky" wrote in message
wrote:
"micky" wrote in message

stuff snipped

I guess you found out the same way that I did. I would love to see how
an
experienced cable jockey uses those long flex bits because I never did
get
the hang of them. That tool you described that applies downward pressure
sounds interesting but it doesn't sound like it was very helpful.

No, it wasn't. It's shaped like an L, each part about 14" long, made
from shiny steel about 1/2" wide and 1/4" or less thick. I think it
has a twist where the bend of the L is. One end is bent back to make
the handle, and the other end I think is also bent back.

Maybe if I did this for months I'd have gotten better able to use the
tool, though maybe not. I think it was just their best effort to make
some sort of tool that might work.

Yes, long flex bits were a major disappointment for me, but it could be that
there's a technique to using them that eludes me. More than one time I've

Well they're definitely good for switches 4 feet off the floor. You
don't need any technique except to know that a short stiff bit won't
work. I have two glass and wood breakage sensors that height. And
I also bypassed the on/off switch to t he kitchen with 110volts from a
relay I connected to the burglar alarm, so when I opened the front door
or the alarm went off, the kichen lights went on. (I tried for the
hall lights too, but becaues of the 3-way switches, I got slowed down
and switched to the kitchnen. )

That worked fine until I put a timer on the kitchen lights, and then
bypassing the wire that powered the timer/on/off switch meant zero volts
to the timer and it lost track of time.

IIRC the new alarm board doesn't have the output for the pre-beeping
period anyhow.

watched Hometime or TOH and watched them do something *correctly* that I had
been doing wrong for years. One thing that especially comes to mind is
drywall work. While my technique was not as bad as my first business
partner who would lather on a mountain of mud and then spend hours sanding
it down with a belt sander, it was still not good. The most important thing
I learned from TOH was to have a good selection of trowels, especially very
wide ones.

When I rewired this house, I just stuck with 18" twist drills and those
speed auger bits whose name escapes me at the moment - damn - this
senility
problem just keeps getting worse! Forstner! At least I didn't have to
Google it to remember. I just read an article that said that older
people's
memory retrievals are slower because they have so much data stored in
their
head that access time slows down.


http://newoldage.blogs.nytimes.com/2...may-just-be-a-
fuller-mind/

Sherlock Holmes said that eventually our brains got full and then
everytie we learned something new, we had to throw away something old.
But I'm not saying he's right.

He may have been correct, at least according to these studies. When you
think about how much of your life you can remember in great detail, it's
amazing it all fits.

Until I was 55 or so, I could remember every place I'd ever been,
everything I'd ever said, and everything I'd ever done. Not
individually, I could't remember every place I'd eaten spaghetti, but I
remembered every food I'd eaten, and every place I'd eaten food.

But it's been downhill noticeably since then. (I'm 67.) I had this
great 5 month trip from Chicago to San Antonio with my car and then
hitchhiking to Panama. I used to remember every leg of the
hitchhiking, where people picked me up, what they said to me, what was
unusual about any that was unusual, what I had done in each town, and
for years people told me to write a book about it. I even had the title,
Travels with Mario. (Of course that took 5 seconds to write, not like
the book would take.) But now I can't write it if I tried because
I've forgotten some good details, and some parts don't even fit together
anymore.

Plus when I play Jeopardy with the television, I don't do nearly as
well. I used to get about 20** right out of 30, before the
contestants had time to give the answer. Now it's 15 or fewer. (I no
longer count because it's depressing.) I went to the tryouts in
Atlantic City and poeple told me to win on the show, you had to get 25
out of 30.

**There is always one category I know nothing about, like current music
or like Academy Awards, and usually one I know little about. Which
kept my number from going over 20. I could handle that, since I wasn't
interested in those two topics anyhow (and I'm sort of amazed that the
winners know so much about so many subjects, things I would think
they're not interested in either, but they seem to know them.. In
truth my knowledge is superficial, and if I know the author of
something, it doens't mean I've read it or no anything about the
contents, but then again, I'm sure that's true for just as many answers
on the show.


It doesnt' matter if, judging by phyical brain wrinkles, actual wrinkles
seen during an autopsy, humans only use 20% of their brains, or whatever
they say. Perhaps that is our maximum. Maybe we don't have enough of
some enzyme or other chemical to use the rest. Percent of wrinkling
isn't the only factor to consider.

I think that 20% number has been debunked. We may be using only 20% of our
total brain capacity when executing any one task, but that's sort of like
driving a car at 20 MPH that can do 100 MPH when it's required.

Okay. Good.

Another study I heard on NPR says that scientists used to think that
children under 3? were not capable of forming memories, but some study
implied they made many memories but forgot them sooner, that the rate of
forgetting was high until age 6 when it slowed a lot and didn't get high
again until old age.

Infant and animal studies are notorious for dubious conclusions because the
study participants are unable to talk so a lot of information has to be
inferred - often quite incorrectly.

Yeah, I forget what method they used to show that the kid remembered
something. It seemed reasonable but not conclusivey accurate. Still
I think the notion that children under 3 can't form memories is absurd.
But once they get out of the house everything is a new thing for them
and their old memories are overwhelmed. I think it's now hard to
form memories without words to go with them**, but recently I
experienced just that. My arms and hands were in a cetain position,
maybe like playing golf but not that, and it reminded me of another
time they were in that position. No words involved.

**For example, one of the guys who picked me up hitchhikng was in
Nicaragua maybe, and he had a driver and he rode in the back seat of a
4-door car. He looked a little like an Indian iirc, and he wore
bi-focal, or even tri-focal*** sunglasses, which I had never seen before
(or since if they were tri-focal) and had a small revolver in his belt.
I have an image of all this without words, but I also have a lot of
words to go with it, so it's hard to know how well I could remember it
without words.

***One of the details I've forgotten, did he wear bi-focals or
tri-focals. The latter are exceedingly rare, especially in 1971.

Normally I would have talked to the driver as I opened the passenger
door to get in, but in this case the driver drove forward so I was next
to the driver side rear seat, where he sat (Just two in the car) , so I
actually saw what was in his lap and I guess he knew I saw it. I still
took the ride, but it was short and we didnt' say a word to each other
iirc. (again, iirc. Until I was 50, I recalled everything about this
trip correctly. ) Even though he must have had an intesting story.
]\

OTOH, without the ability to forget, we might have trouble finding our
car because we'd remember where we parked it 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 days ago
as well. And we would perhaps be tormented by every bad thing that had
happened, as well as uplifted by every good thing that had ever happened
to us.

Hey, I have a recurring nightmare, possibly from nearly getting heat stroke
looking for a white rental car in a Phoenix parking lot at noon, of not
being able to find my car. Part of it stems from the accursed alternate
side of the street parking I grew up with in NYC. You'd awaken at 5AM in a
sweat wondering if your car was on the correct side of the street.

I lived in Brookly for 12 years, and had a car the whole time. I woke
up like that a few times, but much of the time the bad hours were 11 to
2. But when I got a regular job, I had to get the subway by 8:40 when
I worked in lower manhattan. And of coure all the spots were taken
long before then. So one time I'm driving around looking for a spot
(and if it's not near me, it's farther from my subway line, the A
train.) and when I realied there were none, I got a twist in my gut,
spastic colon I think it's called. I did park t he car some place, and
got to work a little late (and they always assumed there was a delay on
the subway not my fault. I never toldl them it was only 4 stops from my
station to my exit, and I never got delayed on the train. It was always
me.) My gut was stil twisted that night and again all day the next
day. So the second night I went to a n'hood doctor. I think I went to a
radiologist who only practiced general medicine on Tuesday evenings.

Why I didnt' go to my own GP who was 2 blocks away I don't remember.
He was 80 years old and his receptionist nurse was also 80. He
charged 5 dollars in the 70's and 80's for an office visit. She would
go to the far end of this big room, had been a living room in a very big
house (they lived upstairs) and she would fall asleep there, until my
visit was over. He was still taking course in his 80's. One week he
wasn't in all week while he took a course at Maimonides Hospital.

Anyhow, the radiologist was about about to prescribe an antispasmodic
with a tranquilizer in it, he told me, and I asked if I could have just
the antispasmodic. He said yes, of course, and I guess that worked by
the next day. All this because I coudlnt find a parking place.


I ended up using my "fox and hound" tester to make sure I wasn't drilling
into a floor joist from above. It mostly worked. (-: The biggest
problem
I had drilling from floor to floor was hitting nails. The Forstner bit
can
be resharpened pretty easily with a Dremel tool, at least for the first
half
dozen nails or so. Then there's not enough left of the cutting twist to
sharpen anymore.

Hmm.

The bottom line for me when it came to heavying up the wiring in this house
was to bite the bullet and admit I would have to replaster and repaint.
Once you make that choice, re-wiring gets a lot easier because you can just
chisel out channels for the new wires.

I'm pretty sure I can't plaster worth a darn. Which is why the wires
from the ceiling down the outside wall are still outside the wall where
the ceiling meets the wall and where the wall has a fire stop. I don't
care anymore. I may just let the next owners fix it.

wrote in message news:467978ce-7822-4a6b-bd64-

stuff snipped

there's a technique to using them that eludes me.

Forget about all that, I still don't understand the question:

"When drilling a hole in the floor between two walls, should I put the
hole
in the middle, or at the bottom of one of the walls? "

We'll just have to wait for clarification. I gave up on trying to read
people's minds! (-:

Clearly from the online example he found, he's drilling a hole inside
the wall, so what's up with the part about "middle" or "bottom" of the
wall?

Have no clue. Just thought I might try to get some utility out of the
thread and possible pick up some pointers about how to better use these
flexible drills I appear to have wasted money on. I had such high hopes for
them that never materialized. I was replacing two prong outlets with
grounded ones.

In some cases I just settled for installing GFCI outlets without trying to
pull a new ground wire. In other cases I installed completely new outlets -
the old wiring had only two(!) outlets per room. I guess in 1940, that was
"hot stuff." For new outlets, I chiseled out a rectangle at outlet height
and then drilled down through that hole (or, if I couldn't get the angle
right, chiseled out a channel for the new wire.

And for technique, if it's basement underneath, you can usually locate
where
the wall sits by any electrical wires, heating ducts, water pipes, etc
that run up into that wall. Then you can drill up from the basement
and avoid the long bit.

And you can get pretty easily fooled in some situations depending on what
reference points are available. DAMHIKT. (-: I only drilled up a few
times time and that was enough to convince me to drill from the finished
space INTO the unfinished space and not vice-versa. The fox and hound
tester actually worked pretty nicely to indicate where things lined up
between floors. Next time, I will probably use a stud finder and a super st
rong neodymium magnet to see if that gives me a more precise indication.

--
Bobby G.

"micky" wrote in message

stuff snipped

Well they're definitely good for switches 4 feet off the floor. You
don't need any technique except to know that a short stiff bit won't
work. I have two glass and wood breakage sensors that height. And
I also bypassed the on/off switch to t he kitchen with 110volts from a
relay I connected to the burglar alarm, so when I opened the front door
or the alarm went off, the kichen lights went on. (I tried for the
hall lights too, but becaues of the 3-way switches, I got slowed down
and switched to the kitchnen. )

My first time with a long flex bit, I hit a discarded old broken off hammer
head that had been tossed inside the wall cavity. Things went downhill from
there.

stuff snipped

Until I was 55 or so, I could remember every place I'd ever been,
everything I'd ever said, and everything I'd ever done. Not
individually, I could't remember every place I'd eaten spaghetti, but I
remembered every food I'd eaten, and every place I'd eaten food.

That's really an enormous amount of data - a lot of it "low resolution"
stuff, though. The mind's quite adept at filling in background, often quite
inaccurately.

But it's been downhill noticeably since then. (I'm 67.) I had this
great 5 month trip from Chicago to San Antonio with my car and then
hitchhiking to Panama. I used to remember every leg of the
hitchhiking, where people picked me up, what they said to me, what was
unusual about any that was unusual, what I had done in each town, and
for years people told me to write a book about it. I even had the title,
Travels with Mario. (Of course that took 5 seconds to write, not like
the book would take.) But now I can't write it if I tried because
I've forgotten some good details, and some parts don't even fit together
anymore.

That's why professional writers keep journals and even mundane things like
check registers. You'd be amazed at what's buried deep in your subconcious,
awaiting a trigger to reactivate the old memories. I've been cleaning up
the attic and going through old boxes of photos, hand-written letters
(remember those?) and box after box of videotapes, VHS, Beta and 3/4" pro
stuff. Lots of memories are still there, but they've lost "access keys."
The flip side is that I often come across photos that I know I took, but I
can't remember the people in them. That's sort of scary.

Plus when I play Jeopardy with the television, I don't do nearly as
well. I used to get about 20** right out of 30, before the
contestants had time to give the answer. Now it's 15 or fewer. (I no
longer count because it's depressing.)

Just the other night I had a wonderful, memory-affirming moment when I got
four questions in a row that stumped all three contestants. It was sweet.
On the other hand, there are times when they exhaust an entire category
before I realize what the "trick" to the question is about.

I went to the tryouts in
Atlantic City and poeple told me to win on the show, you had to get 25
out of 30.

Kewl. My librarian friend did that and all she remembers is freezing up.
It's one thing to play the home version and quite another to stand up in
front of people trying to remember things.

**There is always one category I know nothing about, like current music
or like Academy Awards, and usually one I know little about. Which
kept my number from going over 20. I could handle that, since I wasn't
interested in those two topics anyhow (and I'm sort of amazed that the
winners know so much about so many subjects, things I would think
they're not interested in either, but they seem to know them.. In
truth my knowledge is superficial, and if I know the author of
something, it doens't mean I've read it or no anything about the
contents, but then again, I'm sure that's true for just as many answers
on the show.

Here's a very interesting piece about one of the current champions:

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment...mily-to-think/

His strategy is to hunt down the Daily Doubles and his style irritates many.

stuff snipped

Infant and animal studies are notorious for dubious conclusions because
the
study participants are unable to talk so a lot of information has to be
inferred - often quite incorrectly.

Yeah, I forget what method they used to show that the kid remembered
something. It seemed reasonable but not conclusivey accurate. Still
I think the notion that children under 3 can't form memories is absurd.

Agreed.

But once they get out of the house everything is a new thing for them
and their old memories are overwhelmed. I think it's now hard to
form memories without words to go with them**, but recently I
experienced just that. My arms and hands were in a cetain position,
maybe like playing golf but not that, and it reminded me of another
time they were in that position. No words involved.

I recall reading about them being able to "transplant" memories from one
animal to another. The animal mind was extremely well-developed long before
spoken languages appeared in humans. I wish I could remember the study -
which I beleive involved the caching of food in the fall - but my mind's
drawing a blank. (0:

**For example, one of the guys who picked me up hitchhikng was in
Nicaragua maybe, and he had a driver and he rode in the back seat of a
4-door car. He looked a little like an Indian iirc, and he wore
bi-focal, or even tri-focal*** sunglasses, which I had never seen before
(or since if they were tri-focal) and had a small revolver in his belt.
I have an image of all this without words, but I also have a lot of
words to go with it, so it's hard to know how well I could remember it
without words.

***One of the details I've forgotten, did he wear bi-focals or
tri-focals. The latter are exceedingly rare, especially in 1971.

Normally I would have talked to the driver as I opened the passenger
door to get in, but in this case the driver drove forward so I was next
to the driver side rear seat, where he sat (Just two in the car) , so I
actually saw what was in his lap and I guess he knew I saw it. I still
took the ride, but it was short and we didnt' say a word to each other
iirc. (again, iirc. Until I was 50, I recalled everything about this
trip correctly. ) Even though he must have had an intesting story.

Sadly, from everything I've read recently, a lot of the details you remember
may not be accurate. The brain is remarkable in that it often just "fills
in" details that were forgotten or perhaps never even known. It was in an
article about how bad eyewitness testimony can be. It's very hard for
people to accurately pick out someone they observed committing a crime
unless they knew that person beforehand. Even in controlled experiments
people are quite bad at picking people out of a lineup, especially one that
consists of a single photographic image.

OTOH, without the ability to forget, we might have trouble finding our
car because we'd remember where we parked it 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 days ago
as well. And we would perhaps be tormented by every bad thing that had
happened, as well as uplifted by every good thing that had ever
happened
to us.

Hey, I have a recurring nightmare, possibly from nearly getting heat
stroke
looking for a white rental car in a Phoenix parking lot at noon, of not
being able to find my car. Part of it stems from the accursed alternate
side of the street parking I grew up with in NYC. You'd awaken at 5AM in
a
sweat wondering if your car was on the correct side of the street.

I lived in Brookly for 12 years, and had a car the whole time. I woke
up like that a few times, but much of the time the bad hours were 11 to
2. But when I got a regular job, I had to get the subway by 8:40 when
I worked in lower manhattan. And of coure all the spots were taken
long before then. So one time I'm driving around looking for a spot
(and if it's not near me, it's farther from my subway line, the A
train.) and when I realied there were none, I got a twist in my gut,
spastic colon I think it's called. I did park t he car some place, and
got to work a little late (and they always assumed there was a delay on
the subway not my fault. I never toldl them it was only 4 stops from my
station to my exit, and I never got delayed on the train. It was always
me.) My gut was stil twisted that night and again all day the next
day. So the second night I went to a n'hood doctor. I think I went to a
radiologist who only practiced general medicine on Tuesday evenings.

Why I didnt' go to my own GP who was 2 blocks away I don't remember.
He was 80 years old and his receptionist nurse was also 80. He
charged 5 dollars in the 70's and 80's for an office visit. She would
go to the far end of this big room, had been a living room in a very big
house (they lived upstairs) and she would fall asleep there, until my
visit was over. He was still taking course in his 80's. One week he
wasn't in all week while he took a course at Maimonides Hospital.

Anyhow, the radiologist was about about to prescribe an antispasmodic
with a tranquilizer in it, he told me, and I asked if I could have just
the antispasmodic. He said yes, of course, and I guess that worked by
the next day. All this because I coudlnt find a parking place.

My recurring nightmares hear you. Who'd think you could get PTSD from
alternate side of the street parking?

I ended up using my "fox and hound" tester to make sure I wasn't
drilling
into a floor joist from above. It mostly worked. (-: The biggest
problem
I had drilling from floor to floor was hitting nails. The Forstner
bit
can
be resharpened pretty easily with a Dremel tool, at least for the
first
half
dozen nails or so. Then there's not enough left of the cutting twist
to
sharpen anymore.

Hmm.

The bottom line for me when it came to heavying up the wiring in this
house
was to bite the bullet and admit I would have to replaster and repaint.
Once you make that choice, re-wiring gets a lot easier because you can
just
chisel out channels for the new wires.

I'm pretty sure I can't plaster worth a darn.

I forgot to note that while I replastered, I didn't repaint - yet. I just
strategically place furniture so that no one would notice!

Which is why the wires
from the ceiling down the outside wall are still outside the wall where
the ceiling meets the wall and where the wall has a fire stop. I don't
care anymore. I may just let the next owners fix it.

I have plenty of similar "features" that are being pushed off onto someone
else in the hazy future after I've sold the house. A lot of projects got
abandoned because of arthritis and the sad realization that I just don't
bend around corners the way I used to. sigh

--
Bobby G.

On Fri, 7 Feb 2014 13:05:14 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:



Have no clue. Just thought I might try to get some utility out of the
thread and possible pick up some pointers about how to better use these
flexible drills I appear to have wasted money on. I had such high hopes for
them that never materialized. I was replacing two prong outlets with
grounded ones.

In some cases I just settled for installing GFCI outlets without trying to
pull a new ground wire.

Just to remind you, you don't need a ground wire or a 3rd prong for a
GFCI to work They measure the current in the hot and neutral and if
they are not the same, they trip. They don't use the ground at all
aiui.

In other cases I installed completely new outlets -
the old wiring had only two(!) outlets per room. I guess in 1940, that was
"hot stuff."

Darn right. I think of what my brother and had in my room in 1964.
Just a lamp on the desk and a clock radio. And I'd recently gotten sick
of the windup clock I used, because it ticked so loud, and I screamed
at it, and my mother had an unused electric alarm clock all along. (It
might have had a radium dial so she didnt' want to use it until I
complained.)

And a ham radio receiver, but most people wouldn't have had that.

And that's pretty much all I had until I was 24, had roommates, and I
put a tv in my room. Still, two double outlets was enough. That was
until '74.

"micky" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 7 Feb 2014 13:05:14 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:



Have no clue. Just thought I might try to get some utility out of the
thread and possible pick up some pointers about how to better use these
flexible drills I appear to have wasted money on. I had such high hopes
for
them that never materialized. I was replacing two prong outlets with
grounded ones.

In some cases I just settled for installing GFCI outlets without trying
to
pull a new ground wire.

Just to remind you, you don't need a ground wire or a 3rd prong for a
GFCI to work They measure the current in the hot and neutral and if
they are not the same, they trip. They don't use the ground at all
aiui.

I was aware of that, and that's why I put in GFCI's - so I could at least
accommodate 3 pin plugs without an adapter. Even have them labeled "No
Equipment Ground" using the little labels that come with the GFCI's (-:
Hated to do it because some equipment depends on having a connection to
ground, but 3 pin compatibility was more important at the time.

In other cases I installed completely new outlets -
the old wiring had only two(!) outlets per room. I guess in 1940, that
was
"hot stuff."

Darn right. I think of what my brother and had in my room in 1964.
Just a lamp on the desk and a clock radio. And I'd recently gotten sick
of the windup clock I used, because it ticked so loud, and I screamed
at it, and my mother had an unused electric alarm clock all along. (It-
might have had a radium dial so she didnt' want to use it until I
complained.)

And a ham radio receiver, but most people wouldn't have had that.

Hey, I had a Hallicrafters at the time. Still have the little Lafayette
stereo receiver I bought with settlement money from a car crash where some
idiot in an Impala ran a stop sign and our little Karmann Ghia virtually
dissolved when we broadsided him at 30+ MPH.

And that's pretty much all I had until I was 24, had roommates, and I
put a tv in my room. Still, two double outlets was enough. That was
until '74.

The world has certainly changed in that short time. I've been installing
four foot long outlet strips that Harbor Freight sells on all of the
workbenches and along the kitchen counter. I wouldn't even hazard a guess
about how many things are plugged in around the house, but I'll bet it's
over 100.

--
Bobby G.

"micky" wrote in message

stuff snipped

since joists are every 16 inches

Unless they are not. (-: I think in another thread someone was talking
about a mantel installation and the discovery that there was nothing but air
at 16" with the stud being at 17.5"

When I last installed shelving around a window, it looked like someone
sprayed the wall with a tiny machine gun. That's because I kept drilling
small pilots holes looking for the studs (which clearly weren't 16" apart).
Just saying . . .

--
Bobby G.

On Fri, 7 Feb 2014 16:36:17 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"micky" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 7 Feb 2014 13:05:14 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:



Have no clue. Just thought I might try to get some utility out of the
thread and possible pick up some pointers about how to better use these
flexible drills I appear to have wasted money on. I had such high hopes
for
them that never materialized. I was replacing two prong outlets with
grounded ones.

In some cases I just settled for installing GFCI outlets without trying
to
pull a new ground wire.

Just to remind you, you don't need a ground wire or a 3rd prong for a
GFCI to work They measure the current in the hot and neutral and if
they are not the same, they trip. They don't use the ground at all
aiui.

I was aware of that, and that's why I put in GFCI's - so I could at least
accommodate 3 pin plugs without an adapter. Even have them labeled "No
Equipment Ground" using the little labels that come with the GFCI's (-:
Hated to do it because some equipment depends on having a connection to
ground, but 3 pin compatibility was more important at the time.

In other cases I installed completely new outlets -
the old wiring had only two(!) outlets per room. I guess in 1940, that
was
"hot stuff."

Darn right. I think of what my brother and had in my room in 1964.
Just a lamp on the desk and a clock radio. And I'd recently gotten sick
of the windup clock I used, because it ticked so loud, and I screamed
at it, and my mother had an unused electric alarm clock all along. (It-
might have had a radium dial so she didnt' want to use it until I
complained.)

And a ham radio receiver, but most people wouldn't have had that.

Hey, I had a Hallicrafters at the time. Still have the little Lafayette
stereo receiver I bought with settlement money from a car crash where some
idiot in an Impala ran a stop sign and our little Karmann Ghia virtually
dissolved when we broadsided him at 30+ MPH.

And that's pretty much all I had until I was 24, had roommates, and I
put a tv in my room. Still, two double outlets was enough. That was
until '74.

The world has certainly changed in that short time. I've been installing
four foot long outlet strips that Harbor Freight sells on all of the
workbenches and along the kitchen counter. I wouldn't even hazard a guess
about how many things are plugged in around the house, but I'll bet it's
over 100.

Yes, I have 5 clock-like things right next to my bed alone.

The DVDR,
the VCR (though there's no point in setting the time since I don't have
the right remote and can only tape at the highest quality, 2 hours on
one tape)
The clock radio I listen to the radio with and which has good sound.
The clock radio I use to wake up with which is little and has terrible
sound, but a very nice alarm, that starts low and gets louder.
The atomic clock that someone sold me for 1 dollar at a hamfest, which
I'm supposed to use to set the time on the DVDR, which often has the
time a minute or two off even though it has an automatic setting. My
friend who got a later model has the same problem. This uses
batteries.

Plus two lamps**, a VCR tape rewinder, a UPS, a powered FM antenna, a
powered VHF modulator to modulate the digital signal for my analog tv,
the powermid receiver, to receive remote control signals from other
rooms, a second powermid receiver I should really unplug, the digital to
analog converter to get the OTA signal to my VCR. sometimes the electric
blanket, the tv on the left, the powered computer speaker since the tv
speaker gives terrible sound, and a couple other things.

Plus in the closet an unplugged no longer current cable box, and a tv
signal amplifier, because the signal splits there and goes to the attic
and first floor. That's been plugged in for 29 years straight and has
never given me a problem. Sometimes it gets covered with clothes, but
it doesn't care.

**Next to the bed. There are two other lamps in the room and a ceiling
fixture.

That's 20 things plugged in. Most, are off or use very little current.
Actually all except the 14" TV.

I'll get back to you on the rest of the house.

micky posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP


On Fri, 7 Feb 2014 16:36:17 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"micky" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 7 Feb 2014 13:05:14 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:



Have no clue. Just thought I might try to get some utility out of the
thread and possible pick up some pointers about how to better use these
flexible drills I appear to have wasted money on. I had such high hopes
for
them that never materialized. I was replacing two prong outlets with
grounded ones.

In some cases I just settled for installing GFCI outlets without trying
to
pull a new ground wire.

Just to remind you, you don't need a ground wire or a 3rd prong for a
GFCI to work They measure the current in the hot and neutral and if
they are not the same, they trip. They don't use the ground at all
aiui.

I was aware of that, and that's why I put in GFCI's - so I could at least
accommodate 3 pin plugs without an adapter. Even have them labeled "No
Equipment Ground" using the little labels that come with the GFCI's (-:
Hated to do it because some equipment depends on having a connection to
ground, but 3 pin compatibility was more important at the time.

In other cases I installed completely new outlets -
the old wiring had only two(!) outlets per room. I guess in 1940, that
was
"hot stuff."

Darn right. I think of what my brother and had in my room in 1964.
Just a lamp on the desk and a clock radio. And I'd recently gotten sick
of the windup clock I used, because it ticked so loud, and I screamed
at it, and my mother had an unused electric alarm clock all along. (It-
might have had a radium dial so she didnt' want to use it until I
complained.)

And a ham radio receiver, but most people wouldn't have had that.

Hey, I had a Hallicrafters at the time. Still have the little Lafayette
stereo receiver I bought with settlement money from a car crash where some
idiot in an Impala ran a stop sign and our little Karmann Ghia virtually
dissolved when we broadsided him at 30+ MPH.

And that's pretty much all I had until I was 24, had roommates, and I
put a tv in my room. Still, two double outlets was enough. That was
until '74.

The world has certainly changed in that short time. I've been installing
four foot long outlet strips that Harbor Freight sells on all of the
workbenches and along the kitchen counter. I wouldn't even hazard a guess
about how many things are plugged in around the house, but I'll bet it's
over 100.

Yes, I have 5 clock-like things right next to my bed alone.

The DVDR,
the VCR (though there's no point in setting the time since I don't have
the right remote and can only tape at the highest quality, 2 hours on
one tape)
The clock radio I listen to the radio with and which has good sound.
The clock radio I use to wake up with which is little and has terrible
sound, but a very nice alarm, that starts low and gets louder.
The atomic clock that someone sold me for 1 dollar at a hamfest, which
I'm supposed to use to set the time on the DVDR, which often has the
time a minute or two off even though it has an automatic setting. My
friend who got a later model has the same problem. This uses

What's your address and when are you away? Sounds like one stop shopping to me!

--
Tekkie

On Fri, 7 Feb 2014 17:27:35 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"micky" wrote in message

stuff snipped

since joists are every 16 inches

Unless they are not. (-: I think in another thread someone was talking
about a mantel installation and the discovery that there was nothing but air
at 16" with the stud being at 17.5"

I continued, " or whatever you measure in the
basement,"

When I last installed shelving around a window, it looked like someone
sprayed the wall with a tiny machine gun. That's because I kept drilling
small pilots holes looking for the studs (which clearly weren't 16" apart).
Just saying . . .

On Fri, 7 Feb 2014 19:23:38 -0500, Tekkie® wrote:

micky posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP


On Fri, 7 Feb 2014 16:36:17 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"micky" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 7 Feb 2014 13:05:14 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:



Have no clue. Just thought I might try to get some utility out of the
thread and possible pick up some pointers about how to better use these
flexible drills I appear to have wasted money on. I had such high hopes
for
them that never materialized. I was replacing two prong outlets with
grounded ones.

In some cases I just settled for installing GFCI outlets without trying
to
pull a new ground wire.

Just to remind you, you don't need a ground wire or a 3rd prong for a
GFCI to work They measure the current in the hot and neutral and if
they are not the same, they trip. They don't use the ground at all
aiui.

I was aware of that, and that's why I put in GFCI's - so I could at least
accommodate 3 pin plugs without an adapter. Even have them labeled "No
Equipment Ground" using the little labels that come with the GFCI's (-:
Hated to do it because some equipment depends on having a connection to
ground, but 3 pin compatibility was more important at the time.

In other cases I installed completely new outlets -
the old wiring had only two(!) outlets per room. I guess in 1940, that
was
"hot stuff."

Darn right. I think of what my brother and had in my room in 1964.
Just a lamp on the desk and a clock radio. And I'd recently gotten sick
of the windup clock I used, because it ticked so loud, and I screamed
at it, and my mother had an unused electric alarm clock all along. (It-
might have had a radium dial so she didnt' want to use it until I
complained.)

And a ham radio receiver, but most people wouldn't have had that.

Hey, I had a Hallicrafters at the time. Still have the little Lafayette
stereo receiver I bought with settlement money from a car crash where some
idiot in an Impala ran a stop sign and our little Karmann Ghia virtually
dissolved when we broadsided him at 30+ MPH.

And that's pretty much all I had until I was 24, had roommates, and I
put a tv in my room. Still, two double outlets was enough. That was
until '74.

The world has certainly changed in that short time. I've been installing
four foot long outlet strips that Harbor Freight sells on all of the
workbenches and along the kitchen counter. I wouldn't even hazard a guess
about how many things are plugged in around the house, but I'll bet it's
over 100.

Yes, I have 5 clock-like things right next to my bed alone.

The DVDR,
the VCR (though there's no point in setting the time since I don't have
the right remote and can only tape at the highest quality, 2 hours on
one tape)
The clock radio I listen to the radio with and which has good sound.
The clock radio I use to wake up with which is little and has terrible
sound, but a very nice alarm, that starts low and gets louder.
The atomic clock that someone sold me for 1 dollar at a hamfest, which
I'm supposed to use to set the time on the DVDR, which often has the
time a minute or two off even though it has an automatic setting. My
friend who got a later model has the same problem. This uses

What's your address and when are you away? Sounds like one stop shopping to me!

I'll be away tomorrow most of the day.

My address is 127.0.0.1 .

On Fri, 7 Feb 2014 13:44:39 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

Posted and mailed because it's taken me 8 days to reply.

Just the other night I had a wonderful, memory-affirming moment when I got
four questions in a row that stumped all three contestants. It was sweet.
On the other hand, there are times when they exhaust an entire category
before I realize what the "trick" to the question is about.

Yes, I have both of those situations. I've never gotten 4 in a row,
but I've gotten quite a few that all three of them miss.

And yes, I often miss the trick to the question, and have other problems
because I can't see the category. They can see the cateogory all the
time I think.

I went to the tryouts in
Atlantic City and poeple told me to win on the show, you had to get 25
out of 30.

Kewl. My librarian friend did that and all she remembers is freezing up.
It's one thing to play the home version and quite another to stand up in
front of people trying to remember things.

There are so many appicants from NYC that they had a two stage process
in NYC and later in Atlantic City. The first stage is a written test
with a time limit.

I took that twice*** and passed it once.

***From Baltimore are some very nice buses, one that leaves only 2 miles
from my home. They even have a stewardess! who, though middle aged,
gave away coffee and a sweet roll. On the way back, someone sold candy
or something, plus sometimes they show a movie on the 8 or so tv's the
buses have. Tickets are about 15 dollars round trip for the 3 hour
drive, but when you get there they give you 5 to 9 dollars, depending on
the time of year, worth of chips for one of the casinos. You can
actually redeem them for money without risking anything gambling. So
the trip is only 6 to 12 dollars round trip.

If you pass you can come back a month or two later for the second stage,
also a written test. I came the previous night and stayed in motel so I
coudl go to bed at 7 or 8PM and sleep until 7. That was what I did
before the SATs and my scores were high. I passed the second test
too, and then they have interviews (There are a few hours inbetween
while the tests were graded, and we have time to talk to each other. I
was okay, but could have been more charming, or maybe better dessed. I
didnt' shine. They said the odds of being called and actually being on
the show after getting to that stage were 1 in 7, iirc. maybe higher.

One of the employees of the show said to several of us that Trebek was a
sort of a jerk. I never mentioned this before but it was decades ago,
I'm sure he doesn't work there anymore. Alex stopped talking about
himself last mid-December, but he can't control himself and he's
gradually talking more and more about himself again. I don't care where
he has eaten dinner. I want the contestant s to talk more.

Now the tests are given online.



**There is always one category I know nothing about, like current music
or like Academy Awards, and usually one I know little about. Which
kept my number from going over 20. I could handle that, since I wasn't
interested in those two topics anyhow (and I'm sort of amazed that the
winners know so much about so many subjects, things I would think
they're not interested in either, but they seem to know them.. In
truth my knowledge is superficial, and if I know the author of
something, it doens't mean I've read it or no anything about the
contents, but then again, I'm sure that's true for just as many answers
on the show.

Here's a very interesting piece about one of the current champions:

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment...mily-to-think/

His strategy is to hunt down the Daily Doubles and his style irritates many.

Trebec keeps claiming people are loooking for the DD's. They can be
anywhere. And you lose money if you can't answer correctly. I don't
see the advantage of finding one or the advantage of looking to find
one. I think they go to the high dollar questions because they are
high dollar, and if he discusses it with contestants they humor him.
If you aren't nice to him, I'll bet you don't get invited back to one of
those returnee shows. Or at least that's what people fear.

Trebec is also always pushing people to bet it all. That's a mistake
and almost no one does it but he keeps at it.

stuff snipped

Infant and animal studies are notorious for dubious conclusions because
the
study participants are unable to talk so a lot of information has to be
inferred - often quite incorrectly.

Yeah, I forget what method they used to show that the kid remembered
something. It seemed reasonable but not conclusivey accurate. Still
I think the notion that children under 3 can't form memories is absurd.

Agreed.

But once they get out of the house everything is a new thing for them
and their old memories are overwhelmed. I think it's now hard to
form memories without words to go with them**, but recently I
experienced just that. My arms and hands were in a cetain position,
maybe like playing golf but not that, and it reminded me of another
time they were in that position. No words involved.

I recall reading about them being able to "transplant" memories from one
animal to another. The animal mind was extremely well-developed long before
spoken languages appeared in humans. I wish I could remember the study -
which I beleive involved the caching of food in the fall - but my mind's
drawing a blank. (0:

**For example, one of the guys who picked me up hitchhikng was in
Nicaragua maybe, and he had a driver and he rode in the back seat of a
4-door car. He looked a little like an Indian iirc, and he wore
bi-focal, or even tri-focal*** sunglasses, which I had never seen before
(or since if they were tri-focal) and had a small revolver in his belt.
I have an image of all this without words, but I also have a lot of
words to go with it, so it's hard to know how well I could remember it
without words.

***One of the details I've forgotten, did he wear bi-focals or
tri-focals. The latter are exceedingly rare, especially in 1971.

Normally I would have talked to the driver as I opened the passenger
door to get in, but in this case the driver drove forward so I was next
to the driver side rear seat, where he sat (Just two in the car) , so I
actually saw what was in his lap and I guess he knew I saw it. I still
took the ride, but it was short and we didnt' say a word to each other
iirc. (again, iirc. Until I was 50, I recalled everything about this
trip correctly. ) Even though he must have had an intesting story.

Sadly, from everything I've read recently, a lot of the details you remember
may not be accurate. The brain is remarkable in that it often just "fills
in" details that were forgotten or perhaps never even known. It was in an

No no no. Everything I said was accurate, except where I wrote iirc or
maybe. Once in a while I consciously fiill in something small that I
don't remember, but I don't think I did that here.

I do have two big stories where my memory might have been wrong. Once
was from my attempt at law school and the statement I heard there, "You
can't move to a nuisance" which meant as I recall, even if there is a
noisy airport and you move next to it, after it's alreay there and
noisy, and then you sue because it's a "nuisance", the defense the
airport would raise is that "You moved here knowing or should have known
it was noisy" and that that defense is no good, you can still sue as if
you had been there first. But my friend who sat in the same class with
me who actually graduated and has practiced laws for 40 years says I
have it backwards. Hmmm. Maybe I just didnt' explain it well enough,
and I was right after all!!!

The other story invovles a story my dentist told me about a dentist in
Rhode Island, and it's a good sentimental story and I told it a couple
times after I got to Baltimore, and then I wanted to refresh my memory
about tiny details. So I went back to Brooklyn to talk to my only
dentist in Brooklyn and asked him to tell me the story again and he
insists he never heard the story. I know a dentst told me the story
and he was the only dentest who treated me, or whom I knew, in NY. It
must have been he. But he says no. Either I forgot something or he
forgot he'd heard the story. Hmmm. now I think it's more likely he had
a ministroke and forgot the story than that I imagined he told me.

OKay, there are no stories where I thought I remembered something and
dididn't.


article about how bad eyewitness testimony can be. It's very hard for
people to accurately pick out someone they observed committing a crime

That's different. Things are happening fast. I don't claim to
remember much but of course that's not the question, it's whether I
would fill in details that are wrong. I've never been checked out on
something like that.

unless they knew that person beforehand. Even in controlled experiments
people are quite bad at picking people out of a lineup, especially one that
consists of a single photographic image.

I woudn't recognize my own mother if I saw her some place I didn't
expect her to be. I might be suspicious but I wouldnt' be certain.

When people in tv shows wear different clothes in a later scene, I don't
know if they are the same person or not. If I pay attention to which
girl is blonde and which brunette, that helps, but if I don't make a
point to do so, I don't even remember what color hair they have.


OTOH, without the ability to forget, we might have trouble finding our
car because we'd remember where we parked it 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 days ago
as well. And we would perhaps be tormented by every bad thing that had
happened, as well as uplifted by every good thing that had ever
happened
to us.

Hey, I have a recurring nightmare, possibly from nearly getting heat
stroke
looking for a white rental car in a Phoenix parking lot at noon, of not
being able to find my car. Part of it stems from the accursed alternate
side of the street parking I grew up with in NYC. You'd awaken at 5AM in
a
sweat wondering if your car was on the correct side of the street.

I lived in Brookly for 12 years, and had a car the whole time. I woke
up like that a few times, but much of the time the bad hours were 11 to
2. But when I got a regular job, I had to get the subway by 8:40 when
I worked in lower manhattan. And of coure all the spots were taken
long before then. So one time I'm driving around looking for a spot
(and if it's not near me, it's farther from my subway line, the A
train.) and when I realied there were none, I got a twist in my gut,
spastic colon I think it's called. I did park t he car some place, and
got to work a little late (and they always assumed there was a delay on
the subway not my fault. I never toldl them it was only 4 stops from my
station to my exit, and I never got delayed on the train. It was always
me.) My gut was stil twisted that night and again all day the next
day. So the second night I went to a n'hood doctor. I think I went to a
radiologist who only practiced general medicine on Tuesday evenings.

Why I didnt' go to my own GP who was 2 blocks away I don't remember.
He was 80 years old and his receptionist nurse was also 80. He
charged 5 dollars in the 70's and 80's for an office visit. She would
go to the far end of this big room, had been a living room in a very big
house (they lived upstairs) and she would fall asleep there, until my
visit was over. He was still taking course in his 80's. One week he
wasn't in all week while he took a course at Maimonides Hospital.

Anyhow, the radiologist was about about to prescribe an antispasmodic
with a tranquilizer in it, he told me, and I asked if I could have just
the antispasmodic. He said yes, of course, and I guess that worked by
the next day. All this because I coudlnt find a parking place.

My recurring nightmares hear you. Who'd think you could get PTSD from
alternate side of the street parking?

LOL

I ended up using my "fox and hound" tester to make sure I wasn't
drilling
into a floor joist from above. It mostly worked. (-: The biggest
problem
I had drilling from floor to floor was hitting nails. The Forstner
bit
can
be resharpened pretty easily with a Dremel tool, at least for the
first
half
dozen nails or so. Then there's not enough left of the cutting twist
to
sharpen anymore.

Hmm.

The bottom line for me when it came to heavying up the wiring in this
house
was to bite the bullet and admit I would have to replaster and repaint.
Once you make that choice, re-wiring gets a lot easier because you can
just
chisel out channels for the new wires.

I'm pretty sure I can't plaster worth a darn.

I forgot to note that while I replastered, I didn't repaint - yet. I just
strategically place furniture so that no one would notice!

Good idea.

Which is why the wires
from the ceiling down the outside wall are still outside the wall where
the ceiling meets the wall and where the wall has a fire stop. I don't
care anymore. I may just let the next owners fix it.

I have plenty of similar "features" that are being pushed off onto someone
else in the hazy future after I've sold the house. A lot of projects got
abandoned because of arthritis and the sad realization that I just don't
bend around corners the way I used to. sigh

I've had back pain since last sping. Saw a doctor in November. He
sent me for an MRI and I've fled twice after starting one. Good thing
they don't charge unless you finish.

--
Bobby G.

"micky" wrote in message
On Fri, 7 Feb 2014 13:44:39 -0500, "Robert Green"

Posted and mailed because it's taken me 8 days to reply.

I wondered how I missed this. Never got to email, I'm afraid.

stuff snipped


***From Baltimore are some very nice buses, one that leaves only 2 miles
from my home. They even have a stewardess! who, though middle aged,
gave away coffee and a sweet roll. On the way back, someone sold candy
or something, plus sometimes they show a movie on the 8 or so tv's the
buses have. Tickets are about 15 dollars round trip for the 3 hour
drive, but when you get there they give you 5 to 9 dollars, depending on
the time of year, worth of chips for one of the casinos. You can
actually redeem them for money without risking anything gambling. So
the trip is only 6 to 12 dollars round trip.

OMG, you're a degenerate gambler! (-: I had my editor approve a $200
budget to cover a trip to Atlantic City when it first opened, many moons
ago. I stayed alive almost a week playing just roulette and poker and found
more material for writing articles than another other trip I've been on. I
saved some chips from the Playboy club - that was the real moneymaking part
of that trip - they are worth quite a bit over face value now.

The feeder bus systems brings in 1,000's of elderly "zombie" slot players
who sit at their favorite machine in a trance, feeding it until their coffee
cup full of coins is depleted. If you were an alien just landed on earth
you wouldn't quite know what to make of it. In a perverse way, it looks as
if they are going to work and their job is to pull levers.

--
Bobby G.