OK , it's getting closer to time to start wiring on the new room and I'm
shopping main panels . Right now we have a 6x6 post with a 100 amp meter
base and a temp type breaker box that holds 1 single and 1double pole
breaker that feed the camper and shop . I want to move the service over to
the new house , with the box on the outside . I'm going to upgrade to a
minimum 200 amp service , and feed the shop with a 100 amp breaker . Must
have a line disconnect so I can back feed the main panel from my genset thru
the shop panel when not if ... the power goes out .
I've been looking at panels at the bigbox places , and find a couple of
different types of breakers - and I thought they'd all been standardized now
.. I also wonder if the newer aluminum bus bars are better than the old
ones - we had an older panel fry the aluminum bars and a couple of breakers
.. I'm leaning towards an all-in-one panel with integral meter base and
copper bars , and wondered if anyone here had a recommendation . I want at
least 30 circuits , probably have 4 double 220V breakers and the other 22
as 110V circuits .
One other question , the wood stove will be installed in the same corner
of the room as where I plan to mount the panel . Is there a problem with the
incoming service being just a couple or 3 feet from the triple wall stove
pipe ? I'll be running a rigid conduit thru the roof , attaching the wire
from the service pole to it . Entergy has already said to call when I'm
ready and they'll install a bigger transformer , the one up there now will
only feed a 100 amp panel .
--
Snag



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On Thu, 5 Dec 2013 07:47:07 -0600, "Snag" wrote in
Re Breaker breaker ...:

Must
have a line disconnect so I can back feed the main panel from my genset thru
the shop panel when not if ... the power goes out .

Yes, the is the best way to do it if by "line-disconnect" you mean
disconnecting the main supply line from the meter or utility.

It's my understanding that is required by all utilities and/or local
codes.
--
Web based forums are like subscribing to 10 different newspapers
and having to visit 10 different news stands to pickup each one.
Email list-server groups and USENET are like having all of those
newspapers delivered to your door every morning.

CRNG wrote:
On Thu, 5 Dec 2013 07:47:07 -0600, "Snag" wrote in
Re Breaker breaker ...:

Must
have a line disconnect so I can back feed the main panel from my
genset thru the shop panel when not if ... the power goes out .

Yes, the is the best way to do it if by "line-disconnect" you mean
disconnecting the main supply line from the meter or utility.

It's my understanding that is required by all utilities and/or local
codes.


Yes , the main infeed 200 amp breaker will be used to isolate the house
and shop wiring from the grid . Don't want to backfeed the system and kill a
lineman . I have a breaker set up on a cord that plugs in to the genset and
my load center out in the shop . This generator powered my whole house
except central air down in Memphis , this camper will barely load it .
Speaking of generators , mine's ready for the incoming "winter weather
event" , just gassed and tested it .
--
Snag



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On Thursday, December 5, 2013 12:50:28 PM UTC-5, Snag wrote:
CRNG wrote:

On Thu, 5 Dec 2013 07:47:07 -0600, "Snag" wrote in

Re Breaker breaker ...:



Must

have a line disconnect so I can back feed the main panel from my

genset thru the shop panel when not if ... the power goes out .



Yes, the is the best way to do it if by "line-disconnect" you mean

disconnecting the main supply line from the meter or utility.



It's my understanding that is required by all utilities and/or local

codes.





Yes , the main infeed 200 amp breaker will be used to isolate the house

and shop wiring from the grid . Don't want to backfeed the system and kill a

lineman . I have a breaker set up on a cord that plugs in to the genset and

my load center out in the shop . This generator powered my whole house

except central air down in Memphis , this camper will barely load it .

Speaking of generators , mine's ready for the incoming "winter weather

event" , just gassed and tested it .

--

Snag







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If you want to try to comply with code there are mechanical lockouts for some brands of main panels. The lockout prevents you from having both the main and the first pair of breakers on at the same time. Then you run your generator connection to that first set. Code requires some sort of device to prevent you from powering up the incoming lines accidentally. Like this.

http://www.amazon.com/Siemens-ECSBPK.../dp/B004Q01YUK

I get you're not getting this inspected at the moment though.

jamesgang wrote:
On Thursday, December 5, 2013 12:50:28 PM UTC-5, Snag wrote:
CRNG wrote:

On Thu, 5 Dec 2013 07:47:07 -0600, "Snag" wrote
in

Re Breaker breaker ...:



Must

have a line disconnect so I can back feed the main panel from my

genset thru the shop panel when not if ... the power goes out .



Yes, the is the best way to do it if by "line-disconnect" you mean

disconnecting the main supply line from the meter or utility.



It's my understanding that is required by all utilities and/or local

codes.





Yes , the main infeed 200 amp breaker will be used to isolate
the house

and shop wiring from the grid . Don't want to backfeed the system
and kill a

lineman . I have a breaker set up on a cord that plugs in to the
genset and

my load center out in the shop . This generator powered my whole
house

except central air down in Memphis , this camper will barely load
it .

Speaking of generators , mine's ready for the incoming "winter
weather

event" , just gassed and tested it .

--

Snag







---

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protection is active.

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If you want to try to comply with code there are mechanical lockouts
for some brands of main panels. The lockout prevents you from having
both the main and the first pair of breakers on at the same time.
Then you run your generator connection to that first set. Code
requires some sort of device to prevent you from powering up the
incoming lines accidentally. Like this.

http://www.amazon.com/Siemens-ECSBPK.../dp/B004Q01YUK

I get you're not getting this inspected at the moment though.


Future plans include a mechanical interlock for those times when we're on
generator . And out in the county where we live there are no inspections
except a basic plumbing check by the local water company .
--
Snag



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On Thursday, December 5, 2013 3:21:30 PM UTC-5, Snag wrote:
jamesgang wrote:

On Thursday, December 5, 2013 12:50:28 PM UTC-5, Snag wrote:

CRNG wrote:



On Thu, 5 Dec 2013 07:47:07 -0600, "Snag" wrote

in



Re Breaker breaker ...:







Must



have a line disconnect so I can back feed the main panel from my



genset thru the shop panel when not if ... the power goes out .







Yes, the is the best way to do it if by "line-disconnect" you mean



disconnecting the main supply line from the meter or utility.







It's my understanding that is required by all utilities and/or local



codes.











Yes , the main infeed 200 amp breaker will be used to isolate

the house



and shop wiring from the grid . Don't want to backfeed the system

and kill a



lineman . I have a breaker set up on a cord that plugs in to the

genset and



my load center out in the shop . This generator powered my whole

house



except central air down in Memphis , this camper will barely load

it .



Speaking of generators , mine's ready for the incoming "winter

weather



event" , just gassed and tested it .



--



Snag















---



This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus

protection is active.



http://www.avast.com





If you want to try to comply with code there are mechanical lockouts

for some brands of main panels. The lockout prevents you from having

both the main and the first pair of breakers on at the same time.

Then you run your generator connection to that first set. Code

requires some sort of device to prevent you from powering up the

incoming lines accidentally. Like this.



http://www.amazon.com/Siemens-ECSBPK.../dp/B004Q01YUK



I get you're not getting this inspected at the moment though.





Future plans include a mechanical interlock for those times when we're on

generator . And out in the county where we live there are no inspections

except a basic plumbing check by the local water company .

--

Snag







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Then I suggest you check to see that whatever brand main panel you get has a mechanical lock out available for it. They don't make them for ALL panels, just some. Myself, I'd go ahead and buy the lockout as well so I have it when I need it.

And I don't always comply with code myself. I know how it is out in the rural areas. But you never know what the future will bring so I try to be close enough so I can make it comply if I need to. Not to mention practically everyone wants a "home inspection" when you sell. I got flagged for a couple breakers I had two wires on last time I sold a house.

On Thursday, December 5, 2013 12:50:28 PM UTC-5, Snag wrote:
CRNG wrote:

On Thu, 5 Dec 2013 07:47:07 -0600, "Snag" wrote in

Re Breaker breaker ...:



Must

have a line disconnect so I can back feed the main panel from my

genset thru the shop panel when not if ... the power goes out .



Yes, the is the best way to do it if by "line-disconnect" you mean

disconnecting the main supply line from the meter or utility.



It's my understanding that is required by all utilities and/or local

codes.





Yes , the main infeed 200 amp breaker will be used to isolate the house

and shop wiring from the grid .

That alone is not code compliant. You need either a double pole double
throw switch or one of the panel interlocks that physically prevent
the generator and the service from being connected at the same time.



Don't want to backfeed the system and kill a

lineman . I have a breaker set up on a cord that plugs in to the genset and

my load center out in the shop .

That breaker should be installed permanently and connected to an
interlock with the main breaker. Or else a double pole switch.
As you've described it, unless I'm missing something, you intend
to rely on someone making sure to open the main breaker before
connecting the generator. That isn't code compliant, nor safe.

I'd do it by installing the breaker and using one of the interlock
kits, together with an inlet. In a power failure you open the
main breaker, close the generator breaker, and connect the generator
to the inlet with an extension cord. Could be permanently connected
too, but that the non-permanent solution.

wrote:
On Thursday, December 5, 2013 12:50:28 PM UTC-5, Snag wrote:
CRNG wrote:

On Thu, 5 Dec 2013 07:47:07 -0600, "Snag" wrote
in

Re Breaker breaker ...:



Must

have a line disconnect so I can back feed the main panel from my

genset thru the shop panel when not if ... the power goes out .



Yes, the is the best way to do it if by "line-disconnect" you mean

disconnecting the main supply line from the meter or utility.



It's my understanding that is required by all utilities and/or local

codes.





Yes , the main infeed 200 amp breaker will be used to isolate
the house

and shop wiring from the grid .

That alone is not code compliant. You need either a double pole
double throw switch or one of the panel interlocks that physically
prevent the generator and the service from being connected at the
same time.



Don't want to backfeed the system and kill a

lineman . I have a breaker set up on a cord that plugs in to the
genset and

my load center out in the shop .

That breaker should be installed permanently and connected to an
interlock with the main breaker. Or else a double pole switch.
As you've described it, unless I'm missing something, you intend
to rely on someone making sure to open the main breaker before
connecting the generator. That isn't code compliant, nor safe.

I'd do it by installing the breaker and using one of the interlock
kits, together with an inlet. In a power failure you open the
main breaker, close the generator breaker, and connect the generator
to the inlet with an extension cord. Could be permanently connected
too, but that the non-permanent solution.


For temporary connection of emergency generators Entergy says I just have
to have a visible break verifiable by company personnel located on the
outside and accessible at all hours . A main disconnect in the off position
qualifies as an open break .

--

Snag



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On 12/5/2013 8:47 AM, Snag wrote:

One other question , the wood stove will be installed in the same corner
of the room as where I plan to mount the panel . Is there a problem with the
incoming service being just a couple or 3 feet from the triple wall stove
pipe ?

You may want to check your local inspector on that one. Regardless of
code, some get rather finicky with panels and stoves. Usually, 3' is
enough. Take a look at where the feed is coming in and the stove pipe
exits to be sure there will be no complaints there.

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 12/5/2013 8:47 AM, Snag wrote:

One other question , the wood stove will be installed in the same
corner of the room as where I plan to mount the panel . Is there a
problem with the incoming service being just a couple or 3 feet from
the triple wall stove pipe ?

You may want to check your local inspector on that one. Regardless of
code, some get rather finicky with panels and stoves. Usually, 3' is
enough. Take a look at where the feed is coming in and the stove pipe
exits to be sure there will be no complaints there.


Out here in the county , we don't have inspectors ... but I'm still not
going to cut corners because no one's watching . I had a sheet from Entergy
that had most of the info on it , gotta see if I can find it now . Might
also find it on their website ...
--
Snag



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Snag wrote:
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 12/5/2013 8:47 AM, Snag wrote:

One other question , the wood stove will be installed in the same
corner of the room as where I plan to mount the panel . Is there a
problem with the incoming service being just a couple or 3 feet from
the triple wall stove pipe ?

You may want to check your local inspector on that one. Regardless
of code, some get rather finicky with panels and stoves. Usually,
3' is enough. Take a look at where the feed is coming in and the
stove pipe exits to be sure there will be no complaints there.


Out here in the county , we don't have inspectors ... but I'm still
not going to cut corners because no one's watching . I had a sheet
from Entergy that had most of the info on it , gotta see if I can
find it now . Might also find it on their website ...


Found some info on their website , but no info on how close I can go to
the wood stove stack . Oh well , I have an alternate location , which also
increases my design flexibility when we add the kitchen .
--

Snag



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Snag wrote:
Must have a line disconnect so I can back feed the main panel from my
genset thru the shop panel when not if ... the power goes out .

Note: I am not an electrician and this is not electrical code advice.

The utility may want a transfer switch or some kind of interlock (as
already mentioned). I realize you don't have a city inspector to deal
with, but the utility can refuse to hook you up if they don't like what
they see.

I've been looking at panels at the bigbox places , and find a couple
of different types of breakers - and I thought they'd all been
standardized now .

They are standardized by the miracle of capitalism, so there is no
standard. In practice I think several of the manufacturers'
breakers will fit each others' panels, but the packages are festooned
with dire legal warnings about mixing them like this.

I also wonder if the newer aluminum bus bars are better than the old
ones - we had an older panel fry the aluminum bars and a couple of
breakers .

I know of panels with copper bus bars that have lasted 48 and 44 years
so far. Aluminum I don't know about. Unless the copper panel is
hundreds of dollars more, I'd get the copper one - compared to an entire
house, it's probably not that much more money.

I'm leaning towards an all-in-one panel with integral meter base and
copper bars , and wondered if anyone here had a recommendation .

Make sure the meter base is what the power company wants - the store
*should* know but it's good to check. Around here, most of the area is
served by one utility, but one city owns its own utility, and what the
two utilities want for meter bases is different; one of the big-box
stores actually labels their meter bases by which utility they are for.

Depending on the electrical code and local critters, you may want one
that can be locked, either with a key lock in the door, or with a
padlock hasp.

I can walk into any hardware or big-box store around here and buy
breakers made by GE and Square D for nearly 50-year-old GE and Square D
panels, and they fit and work just fine. Cutler-Hammer is almost as
available. So I would look for a GE or Square D panel. The leading
alternative is to fully populate the box with everything you think you
might want when you first install it.

I have seen panels (mostly in the big-box stores) sold as a kit with
the main and some number of branch breakers included at a slight
discount; if the breakers match what you need, then this might save a
little money.

Note: I am not an electrician and this is not electrical code advice.

Matt Roberds

On Thu, 5 Dec 2013 20:02:34 +0000 (UTC), wrote:

Note: I am not an electrician and this is not electrical code advice.

(... I'm known to melt wires and make smoke

OP spoke of a panel. My power meter, inside breaker panel appears to
be a single install unit mounted between 2x6 exterior wall studs.

Breaker box is directly behind the meter on the outside.

The "Service Disconnect" breaker is outside, below the power meter
(consumer side).

On Thursday, December 5, 2013 4:01:08 PM UTC-5, Oren wrote:
On Thu, 5 Dec 2013 20:02:34 +0000 (UTC), wrote:



Note: I am not an electrician and this is not electrical code advice.



(... I'm known to melt wires and make smoke



OP spoke of a panel. My power meter, inside breaker panel appears to

be a single install unit mounted between 2x6 exterior wall studs.



Breaker box is directly behind the meter on the outside.



The "Service Disconnect" breaker is outside, below the power meter

(consumer side).

That's a bit odd unless there are some breakers with it for ac or something. Making the inside panel really a sub panel. I've seen that. But I've not seen just a main with nothing else. Are the ground and neutral separate in your inside panel?

On 12/5/2013 7:47 AM, Snag wrote:
OK , it's getting closer to time to start wiring on the new room and I'm
shopping main panels . Right now we have a 6x6 post with a 100 amp meter
base and a temp type breaker box that holds 1 single and 1double pole
breaker that feed the camper and shop . I want to move the service over to
the new house , with the box on the outside . I'm going to upgrade to a
minimum 200 amp service , and feed the shop with a 100 amp breaker . Must
have a line disconnect so I can back feed the main panel from my genset thru
the shop panel whennot if ... the power goes out .
I've been looking at panels at the bigbox places , and find a couple of
different types of breakers - and I thought they'd all been standardized now
. I also wonder if the newer aluminum bus bars are better than the old
ones - we had an older panel fry the aluminum bars and a couple of breakers
. I'm leaning towards an all-in-one panel with integral meter base and
copper bars , and wondered if anyone here had a recommendation . I want at
least 30 circuits , probably have 4 double220V breakers and the other 22
as 110V circuits .

To be code (and safety) compliant, there has to be a way to prevent both
the genset disconnect and service disconnect from being on at the same
time. You can't do that.

You could put a mechanical interlock on the shop panel so the feeder and
generator could not be on at the same time. But only the shop would be
powered.

Or you could connect the generator to the service panel at the house
with a mechanical interlock so the generator breaker and service breaker
can't be on at the same time.

If you back-feed a breaker, which you will do with the generator, the
NEC wants the breaker secured so it can't unplug. The panel manufacturer
should have an accessory that does that.

(In metal cased distribution voltage switchgear with an external
operating handle, something like what you want could be done. The
handles both have built in locks where the key can only be removed with
the disconnect open, and there is only one key (Kirk key interlock).)

Standard breakers? It isn't even code compliant (in general) to use a
breaker from another manufacturer if it fits in the panel.

On 12/5/2013 7:47 AM, Snag wrote:
OK , it's getting closer to time to start wiring on the new room and I'm
shopping main panels . Right now we have a 6x6 post with a 100 amp meter
base and a temp type breaker box that holds 1 single and 1double pole
breaker that feed the camper and shop . I want to move the service over to
the new house , with the box on the outside . I'm going to upgrade to a
minimum 200 amp service , and feed the shop with a 100 amp breaker . Must
have a line disconnect so I can back feed the main panel from my genset thru
the shop panel when not if ... the power goes out .
I've been looking at panels at the bigbox places , and find a couple of
different types of breakers - and I thought they'd all been standardized now
.. I also wonder if the newer aluminum bus bars are better than the old
ones - we had an older panel fry the aluminum bars and a couple of breakers
.. I'm leaning towards an all-in-one panel with integral meter base and
copper bars , and wondered if anyone here had a recommendation . I want at
least 30 circuits , probably have 4 double 220V breakers and the other 22
as 110V circuits .
One other question , the wood stove will be installed in the same corner
of the room as where I plan to mount the panel . Is there a problem with the
incoming service being just a couple or 3 feet from the triple wall stove
pipe ? I'll be running a rigid conduit thru the roof , attaching the wire
from the service pole to it . Entergy has already said to call when I'm
ready and they'll install a bigger transformer , the one up there now will
only feed a 100 amp panel .



I really don't know what you are asking. If you seek a brand
recommendation, our head electrician won't allow anything other than
Square D.

--


___________________________________

Keep the whole world singing . . .
Dan G
remove the seven

DanG wrote:
On 12/5/2013 7:47 AM, Snag wrote:
OK , it's getting closer to time to start wiring on the new room
and I'm shopping main panels . Right now we have a 6x6 post with a
100 amp meter base and a temp type breaker box that holds 1 single
and 1double pole breaker that feed the camper and shop . I want to
move the service over to the new house , with the box on the outside
. I'm going to upgrade to a minimum 200 amp service , and feed the
shop with a 100 amp breaker . Must have a line disconnect so I can
back feed the main panel from my genset thru the shop panel when
not if ... the power goes out . I've been looking at panels at
the bigbox places , and find a couple of different types of breakers
- and I thought they'd all been standardized now .. I also wonder if
the newer aluminum bus bars are better than the old ones - we had an
older panel fry the aluminum bars and a couple of breakers .. I'm
leaning towards an all-in-one panel with integral meter base and
copper bars , and wondered if anyone here had a recommendation . I
want at least 30 circuits , probably have 4 double 220V breakers
and the other 22 as 110V circuits . One other question , the wood
stove will be installed in the same corner of the room as where I plan to
mount the panel . Is there a problem
with the incoming service being just a couple or 3 feet from the
triple wall stove pipe ? I'll be running a rigid conduit thru the
roof , attaching the wire from the service pole to it . Entergy has
already said to call when I'm ready and they'll install a bigger
transformer , the one up there now will only feed a 100 amp panel .



I really don't know what you are asking. If you seek a brand
recommendation, our head electrician won't allow anything other than
Square D.


That was part of my question , that and the advisability of using an
all-in-one meter base/load center . Another part was reliability of the
"plated aluminum bus bars" they are now selling . We had a bad experience
with Al bus bars in an older box . I couldn't find any info on how far a
stove pipe needs to be from the service , but already had an alternate
location in mind just in case . We/ll be moving the stove to the opposite
corner .
--
Snag



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