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220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
"Dean Hoffman" " wrote in message news:l6bq8k$vi5 Most pivot irrigation system run off 3ø 480VAC. We sometimes tap power off the supply for the grain bins. Those are typically 1ø?? 240 VAC like the supply for dryers. We add a step up transformer and a phase converter to make the pivots run. Does that alter your thinking? 240 off of a 480 system? How did you manage that? It should be 277. |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On Mon, 18 Nov 2013 05:48:03 -0800 (PST), "
wrote: On Sunday, November 17, 2013 9:42:14 PM UTC-5, wrote: On Mon, 18 Nov 2013 01:28:53 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico I checked the voltage with my flukemeter which showed they were each 120 volts ac with respect to the neutral. ...and 240V between them. But, you're saying *those* two wires are 180 degrees out of phase with each other, right? They're the opposite. That's the only way there could be 120V from each to ground and 240V between them. If there were less, they couldn't be opposite. There can't be more. Sigh. Some engineer. Engineers talk in terms of the phase relationship of waveforms. KRW only understands "opposite" Not when there isn't one. You're an illiterate liar, but that's nothing new to anyone here, either. If there is a phase relationship there is one. If it's zero, but opposite direction, that's what it is. I'm sorry of you flunked CrackerJax-U EE-101. Get a refund. Imagine a circle of radius 120 units. From the center to any point on the circle it's 120 units. From one side of the circle to a point directly opposite is 240 units. Between any other two points it's something less than 120 units (never more). And more obfuscation thrown in for good measure. You could listen to KRW. Or you can listen to the IEEE (Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers) Here's a paper from the IEEE that specifically addresses the exact issue: You're a liar, Trader, but that's nothing new. ... |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On Mon, 18 Nov 2013 10:40:15 -0600, Nightcrawler®
wrote: On Sunday, November 17, 2013 6:06:30 PM UTC-5, wrote: is, is often slang but it just adds confusion, as you point out. That is the rub. Different nomenclature for different layers of the profession. When I hooked up a genset I (the trade) referred to each phase as A, B, and C, respectively. One got brown tape, one got orange, and one got yellow. Generator taps are labeled 1 through 4, with 4 being the neutral (a true neutral) and 1-3 following the A-C. The 1 winding is phase A, the 2 winding is phase B, and the 3 winding is phase C. You called them "phases" because they are the three phases of the generator. Using the term "phase" denotes a winding on the generator, not the sine wave it creates. Phasing a generator was only making sure that the generator rotation matched utility (clock/counter-clockwise). It didn't matter which phase was labeled "A", as long as "B" is 120degrees later. If it wasn't, label it "C". So, I think you may understand the confusion when the term "phase" is describing the sine wave off of a single phase. His scope readings are correct, but I haven't touched a scope since 1984, and really could not tell you how it hooks up anymore, or whether he is using polarized inputs. You know, the meter says...when reality is something else. A 'scope doesn't show everything. Because sine waves are very symmetrical (positive/negative and forward/backward in time) a scope can easily mislead. Put distortion on the primary of the transformer and you will see it AT THE SAME TIME, not f/2 later, and opposite in sign on the two legs of the Edison connection. If it were a phase difference, the disturbance would be seen f/2 later on one of the "phases". Therefore, here is no phase difference, only a sign difference. My Fluke 87 told me a lot of things. Did I always believe it? No, when in question I busted out the mega expensive Simpson to clarify matters. Analog does trump digital at times. Anyway, just blathering on, here. That's a different issue and can be easily corrected with a resistor (10K, or so). Simpsons are simply low impedance devices so will swamp stray capacitive effects that will confuse a FET sort of meter. Analog and digital have little to do with it. |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On Mon, 18 Nov 2013 10:40:18 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:
The main thing I was trying to figure out was what type of service entry that you had. I'd *love* to know all of this information! For example, given this is the service entrance, can anyone tell if my neutral is connected to ground at the house or if it's *not* connected to a ground at the house? http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3780/1...9139da3c_o.gif Here's a closeup of the connections to the ground/neutral of the house: http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5473/1...9b4ea518_o.gif If anyone can explain how the neutral in the picture is different (or the same) as the ground, that would be enlightening to me (and others)! |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On Mon, 18 Nov 2013 10:40:18 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:
As an aside, is there a metal (copper clad) rod sticking out of the ground underneath, or there about, your meter- main? I've never noticed one ... |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On Mon, 18 Nov 2013 10:40:18 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:
Hmmm, one thing I did not ask is whether or not you are the only customer on this feed. If so, there might not be an underground box, and the wires go straight to the transformer, It turns out that I *am* the only customer on the feed. The power shoots off from the distribution at the road, and it feeds only me. So, I have a dedicated transformer (lucky me) that they always come onto my property to clean up around. How does that change anything for me? Is it good? Bad? |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On Monday, November 18, 2013 1:36:49 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Mon, 18 Nov 2013 05:48:03 -0800 (PST), " wrote: On Sunday, November 17, 2013 9:42:14 PM UTC-5, wrote: On Mon, 18 Nov 2013 01:28:53 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico I checked the voltage with my flukemeter which showed they were each 120 volts ac with respect to the neutral. ...and 240V between them. But, you're saying *those* two wires are 180 degrees out of phase with each other, right? They're the opposite. That's the only way there could be 120V from each to ground and 240V between them. If there were less, they couldn't be opposite. There can't be more. Sigh. Some engineer. Engineers talk in terms of the phase relationship of waveforms. KRW only understands "opposite" Not when there isn't one. You're an illiterate liar, but that's nothing new to anyone here, either. If there is a phase relationship there is one. If it's zero, but opposite direction, that's what it is. I'm sorry of you flunked CrackerJax-U EE-101. Get a refund. Far from it. Here, once again, from an IEEE paper. You do know the IEEE, (Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers). Most widely respected EE organization in the country. The paper was presented at a conference of power industry engineers. http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/artic...number=4520128 Distribution engineers have treated the standard "singlephase" distribution transformer connection as single phase because from the primary side of the transformer these connections are single phase and in the case of standard rural distribution single phase line to ground. However, with the advent of detailed circuit modeling we are beginning to see distribution modeling and analysis being accomplished past the transformer to the secondary. Which now brings into focus the reality that standard 120/240 secondary systems are not single phase line to ground systems, instead they are three wire systems with two phases and one ground wires. Further, the standard 120/240 secondary is different from the two phase primary system in that the secondary phases are separated by 180 degrees instead of three phases separated by 120 degrees." Read the last two sentences. Who's the fool now? Imagine a circle of radius 120 units. From the center to any point on the circle it's 120 units. From one side of the circle to a point directly opposite is 240 units. Between any other two points it's something less than 120 units (never more). And more obfuscation thrown in for good measure. You could listen to KRW. Or you can listen to the IEEE (Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers) Here's a paper from the IEEE that specifically addresses the exact issue: You're a liar, Trader, but that's nothing new. ... How nice. krw claims he addresses every claim I've made. Which of course is a lie, because right here you just cut out the whole section where I cite the IEEE, which cuts to the core of the whole discussion. It shows I'm right, it's very specific, clear and to the point and it was presented at an IEEE conference for power engineeers. So, of course you can't address it, it's irrefutable. Instead you hurl the usual insults. In case you missed it, I posted it again, just for you. But more so others can see who's right and who the real liar is here. |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On Mon, 18 Nov 2013 10:40:18 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:
The two bus bars going to the right go straight to the upper meter "stabs". Prongs that the meter slides into. There are four. The lower stabs feed the residence. You seem to understand this muuuuch better than I do. Can you give me any insight as to how these two boxes work: http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3816/1...c5ff74c3_o.gif (they're for the generator which kicks on automatically whenever the power it out). The generator doesn't run the whole house, but most of it. But, why the two huge boxes? Note: the main breakers are on the other side of this wall. |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On Monday, November 18, 2013 1:46:42 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Mon, 18 Nov 2013 10:40:15 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote: On Sunday, November 17, 2013 6:06:30 PM UTC-5, wrote: is, is often slang but it just adds confusion, as you point out. That is the rub. Different nomenclature for different layers of the profession. When I hooked up a genset I (the trade) referred to each phase as A, B, and C, respectively. One got brown tape, one got orange, and one got yellow. Generator taps are labeled 1 through 4, with 4 being the neutral (a true neutral) and 1-3 following the A-C. The 1 winding is phase A, the 2 winding is phase B, and the 3 winding is phase C. You called them "phases" because they are the three phases of the generator. Using the term "phase" denotes a winding on the generator, not the sine wave it creates. Phasing a generator was only making sure that the generator rotation matched utility (clock/counter-clockwise). It didn't matter which phase was labeled "A", as long as "B" is 120degrees later. If it wasn't, label it "C". So, I think you may understand the confusion when the term "phase" is describing the sine wave off of a single phase. His scope readings are correct, but I haven't touched a scope since 1984, and really could not tell you how it hooks up anymore, or whether he is using polarized inputs. You know, the meter says...when reality is something else. A 'scope doesn't show everything. Because sine waves are very symmetrical (positive/negative and forward/backward in time) a scope can easily mislead. LOL Now the scope is a liar too. Put distortion on the primary of the transformer and you will see it AT THE SAME TIME, not f/2 later, and opposite in sign on the two legs of the Edison connection. Which of course matters not a wit. A phase relationship is a phase relationship. You don't even have to do this with wire. Just invert any periodic waveform with or without distortion and it's 180 deg out of phase with the original, regardless of how you do it. At it's essence, it's a mathematical concept. Good grief. You can just put two waveform plots on a graph. Flip one over. Ask any enginerring student what the phase relationship is and they will tell you that they are 180 deg out of phase. Except of course, krw who will insist on knowing where they came from and if they were generated off a single phase that comes from the power plant, then well they must be a single phase forever I guess. If it were a phase difference, the disturbance would be seen f/2 later on one of the "phases". Therefore, here is no phase difference, only a sign difference. Good grief, you just keep going further and deeper in the hole. You've heard of a transistor right? What's the phase relationship between the input and output of a common emitter single transistor amplifier? EE's will tell you that it's 180 degrees. It doesn't matter if it's a perfect sine wave, a noisy sinewave, a sawtooth wave. My Fluke 87 told me a lot of things. Did I always believe it? No, when in question I busted out the mega expensive Simpson to clarify matters. Analog does trump digital at times. Anyway, just blathering on, here. Yes you sure are. Here is the IEEE on the matter, once again, from a paper presented at a power systems conference. It could not be any more specific, to the point in question and they say you're wrong: "Distribution engineers have treated the standard "singlephase" distribution transformer connection as single phase because from the primary side of the transformer these connections are single phase and in the case of standard rural distribution single phase line to ground. However, with the advent of detailed circuit modeling we are beginning to see distribution modeling and analysis being accomplished past the transformer to the secondary. Which now brings into focus the reality that standard 120/240 secondary systems are not single phase line to ground systems, instead they are three wire systems with two phases and one ground wires. Further, the standard 120/240 secondary is different from the two phase primary system in that the secondary phases are separated by 180 degrees instead of three phases separated by 120 degrees." |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On Mon, 18 Nov 2013 21:38:58 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote: On Mon, 18 Nov 2013 10:40:18 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote: As an aside, is there a metal (copper clad) rod sticking out of the ground underneath, or there about, your meter- main? I've never noticed one ... Do you have a demark box for cable / phone lines below the meter. If so, pull the cover and look inside the wall. The rod may be imbedded through the concrete slab? |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On 11/18/13 10:40 AM, Nightcrawler® wrote:
"Dean Hoffman" " wrote in message news:l6bq8k$vi5 Most pivot irrigation system run off 3ø 480VAC. We sometimes tap power off the supply for the grain bins. Those are typically 1ø?? 240 VAC like the supply for dryers. We add a step up transformer and a phase converter to make the pivots run. Does that alter your thinking? 240 off of a 480 system? How did you manage that? It should be 277. I didn't explain that very well. The supply is 240 single phase at the bin sites. We kick it up to 480 and add a phase converter for the third leg to power the pivots. |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
?Q?Nightcrawler=C2=AE?= wrote in news:l6dfsi$2ul$1
@dont-email.me: The two wires are the same phase and that each in reference to the neutral show 180 degrees out of cycle. Both are on the same phase. Wow. Amazing. "180 degrees out of cycle" = "same phase"???? Try "180 degrees out of cycle" = *out of* phase. |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
Danny D'Amico wrote in :
On Mon, 18 Nov 2013 10:40:18 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote: The main thing I was trying to figure out was what type of service entry that you had. I'd *love* to know all of this information! For example, given this is the service entrance, can anyone tell if my neutral is connected to ground at the house or if it's *not* connected to a ground at the house? The National Electrical Code requires that it be connected to ground within some specific (and short) distance from where it enters the house. Whether it actually *is* so connected or not is a different matter. It certainly *should* be. http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3780/1...9139da3c_o.gif That big bare copper wire that loops up over the top of the service panel and back down the right side is your grounding conductor. Follow that, and see what it's attached to. |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
Danny D'Amico wrote in :
On Mon, 18 Nov 2013 10:40:18 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote: As an aside, is there a metal (copper clad) rod sticking out of the ground underneath, or there about, your meter- main? I've never noticed one ... It may not project very far above ground level (or at all). |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On Mon, 18 Nov 2013 14:30:50 -0800, Oren wrote:
Do you have a demark box for cable / phone lines below the meter. If so, pull the cover and look inside the wall. The rod may be imbedded through the concrete slab? There is no cable where I live. There aren't enough people to make it worth running the cable here, I guess. The only wires we get from utilities are telephone and electricity. We all have to make our own water and find a place to put it when we're done. Plus we all have to figure out how to heat our homes and hot water heaters (most are on propane, but some are on wood). But, there is a phone "demarcation" box (I had to look up "demark") inside the garage (in the center of my picture). There's also a hole in the garage wall, so, I'll stick a flashlight there and look. If I find a rod going into the ground, I'll snap a photo of it. I still am confused as to WHERE exactly the ground goes into the ground versus where the neutral goes into the ground. I know some say they *both* go into the ground at the house, but, I really would like to see that, physically, in my panel to make sure that it is truly the case. |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message ... On Mon, 18 Nov 2013 10:40:18 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote: The two bus bars going to the right go straight to the upper meter "stabs". Prongs that the meter slides into. There are four. The lower stabs feed the residence. You seem to understand this muuuuch better than I do. Can you give me any insight as to how these two boxes work: http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3816/1...c5ff74c3_o.gif (they're for the generator which kicks on automatically whenever the power it out). The generator doesn't run the whole house, but most of it. But, why the two huge boxes? Note: the main breakers are on the other side of this wall. They are what they state on the cover. Not knowing how your house is wired, I can only speculate. Do you have more than one sub-panel? Meaning more than one enclosure in your house that has circuit breakers? Essentially your back-up generator has a circuit that monitors utility voltage. It appears that you have at least two 2-pole circuit breakers leaving your meter-main enclosure via the same raceway. How things turn out after this, I cannot say. I would suspect that at least one of these circuits goes to one of the transfer switches,I can only speculate. What happens is that when the power goes out the monitoring circuit of the generator will activate the transfer switch. How the logic of this function is carried out is still speculation. Some simple circuits just use a relay powered by the utility, and when the utility fails it closes contacts that activate the transfer switch and starts the generator. When the transfer switch activates the lines to your sub-panels are cut off from the meter- main and the output of the generator is isolated from back feeding the utility. Since you have two transfer switches you might have two sub-panels, or one transfer switch cuts off the meter-main while the other transfer switch engages what are considered essential loads in your house. I cannot say with what information I have. There are interlocks that will prevent an accidental back feed of the utility and when the utility comes back on the transfer switches will cut-off the generator output, re-engage utility, then turn off the generator instantly or after a specified time period to maintain rapid switching capability in case the utility just cuts in and cuts back out again. Once again, not knowing the control logic of your system or the power distribution of your system only allows me to speculate. It looks like you have a good set up, though. What part of the Santa Cruz Mountains do you live in? I grew up in the San Lorenzo Valley and I used to live on the Santa Cruz side of Los Gatos. A few miles south of Summit Road. Its a fun drive to take Summit to Skyline, and then up to 92. Hang a left and hit 1 then head North. |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 00:02:10 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:
Do you have more than one sub-panel? Meaning more than one enclosure in your house that has circuit breakers? Yup. There are three, actually five, no, seven, if I count the wells and pool equipment. But, inside the house, there are only three (counting the main panel). |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 00:02:10 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:
What part of the Santa Cruz Mountains do you live in? I grew up in the San Lorenzo Valley and I used to live on the Santa Cruz side of Los Gatos. A few miles south of Summit Road. Very near to Summit Road. The views are stupendous. But the power is horrendous! :) |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message ... On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 00:02:10 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote: Do you have more than one sub-panel? Meaning more than one enclosure in your house that has circuit breakers? Yup. There are three, actually five, no, seven, if I count the wells and pool equipment. But, inside the house, there are only three (counting the main panel). When you state "main panel", do you mean the meter-main outside? |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 00:02:10 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:
Since you have two transfer switches you might have two sub-panels, or one transfer switch cuts off the meter-main while the other transfer switch engages what are considered essential loads in your house. I understand what you're saying. The two things that confuse me a a) Why TWO big boxes? and, b) WHy so big anyway? What the heck is in there? A huge switch? Lots of circuits? A big heat sink? I guess I could open them up and look. :) To clarify though, the generac does kick in whenever the power dies. It also runs once a week, to charge the battery. I don't think it powers the house when it does that though. So, somehow, the circuitry must be cut off for the battery charging. Also, almost the entire house, but, not the entire house is energized when the generac kicks in. Most of the lights and outlets are energized (which means both interior circuit breaker panels are being fed), as are most of the outlets. But the outside of the house also has panels, which run the pool and well equipment, which I don't think is energized when the power is out. Come to think of it, the well must be energized? Or we'd run out of water. So, I'm actually not sure what is energized since most things seem to work when the generator kicks in. |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message ... On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 00:02:10 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote: What part of the Santa Cruz Mountains do you live in? I grew up in the San Lorenzo Valley and I used to live on the Santa Cruz side of Los Gatos. A few miles south of Summit Road. Very near to Summit Road. The views are stupendous. But the power is horrendous! :) West or East of 17? |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
|
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message ... On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 00:02:10 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote: Since you have two transfer switches you might have two sub-panels, or one transfer switch cuts off the meter-main while the other transfer switch engages what are considered essential loads in your house. I understand what you're saying. The two things that confuse me a a) Why TWO big boxes? and, b) WHy so big anyway? What the heck is in there? A huge switch? Lots of circuits? A big heat sink? I guess I could open them up and look. :) To clarify though, the generac does kick in whenever the power dies. It also runs once a week, to charge the battery. I don't think it powers the house when it does that though. So, somehow, the circuitry must be cut off for the battery charging. Also, almost the entire house, but, not the entire house is energized when the generac kicks in. Most of the lights and outlets are energized (which means both interior circuit breaker panels are being fed), as are most of the outlets. But the outside of the house also has panels, which run the pool and well equipment, which I don't think is energized when the power is out. Come to think of it, the well must be energized? Or we'd run out of water. So, I'm actually not sure what is energized since most things seem to work when the generator kicks in. The pool probably is not, but I imagine your well is. Unless you have a large storage tank with accompanying pressure tank and pump. It is odd that there is not a utility fed battery charger, but that "is" an extra expense both in having a second battery charger and the safety interlocks to isolate the two. While charging the generator is only running the battery charger. This is a scheduled event, or there are sensing circuits for battery voltage. The transfer switches can be a bit large, and I imagine there are other relays for interlocks and who knows what else is inside. Pop the covers and take a look. Turn the main breaker off and see if you can trace the wiring out. There might even be a schematic inside each cover with information about the specific function of each transfer switch. A good installer would leave such information on premise, somewhere. A powered transfer switch is essentially a large multi-pole relay. There are many different types and their functions and wiring methods differ from one model/concept to another. Get the serial numbers off of your units and look them up. You might even be able to find a manual online. I have never worked with residential transfer switches, nor Generac stand alone units. The transfer switches I have worked with are about the size of (or larger than) the enclosures your switches are in. Have fun and be careful while poking around. |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
"Nightcrawler®" wrote in message ... "Danny D'Amico" wrote in message ... On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 00:02:10 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote: Oh, if you turn off the main, make sure to disable the generator, first. |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On 11/19/2013 1:11 AM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 00:02:10 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote: What part of the Santa Cruz Mountains do you live in? I grew up in the San Lorenzo Valley and I used to live on the Santa Cruz side of Los Gatos. A few miles south of Summit Road. Very near to Summit Road. The views are stupendous. But the power is horrendous! :) The power being horrendus, is worth it for view stupendous We live on a mountain Youth is our fountain And backup is our generatorendus A tree branch takes out our power When we have wind or even a shower We go throw the transfer switch Try not to drive into the ditch And environmentalists all rally for the flower The skyline it is all black I'm thinking of moving myself back I can't stand this condition I maintain my position We've got to buy a Generac. -- .. Christopher A. Young Learn about Jesus www.lds.org .. |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On 11/19/2013 2:12 AM, Wes Groleau wrote:
On 11-17-2013, 21:17, wrote: Idiot. I've responded*MANY* times. You keep saying*exactly* the same thing in different ways and expect a different, wrong, answer. Indeed. You should have learned two dozen posts back tht you'll just keep getting the same wrong answer. Sorry, but you may have nothing else to do in your life but argue, I'm Oh, the irony.... Have you noticed that some Usenet posters repeatedly say that they won't answer any more? -- .. Christopher A. Young Learn about Jesus www.lds.org .. |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On Monday, November 18, 2013 11:24:56 PM UTC-5, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Mon, 18 Nov 2013 14:30:50 -0800, Oren wrote: Do you have a demark box for cable / phone lines below the meter. If so, pull the cover and look inside the wall. The rod may be imbedded through the concrete slab? There is no cable where I live. There aren't enough people to make it worth running the cable here, I guess. The only wires we get from utilities are telephone and electricity. We all have to make our own water and find a place to put it when we're done. Plus we all have to figure out how to heat our homes and hot water heaters (most are on propane, but some are on wood). But, there is a phone "demarcation" box (I had to look up "demark") inside the garage (in the center of my picture). There's also a hole in the garage wall, so, I'll stick a flashlight there and look. If I find a rod going into the ground, I'll snap a photo of it. I still am confused as to WHERE exactly the ground goes into the ground versus where the neutral goes into the ground. I know some say they *both* go into the ground at the house, but, I really would like to see that, physically, in my panel to make sure that it is truly the case. Sigh... It's been explained many times that the neutral and ground don't both go into the ground. You even took a pic of the 3 insulated service conductors where they enter your house. It was pointed out to you that the smaller one is the neutral. It runs back to the power transformer. The neutral is connected together with an earth ground at your panel and at the transformer. Or as Doug says, at least they should be..... |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On Tuesday, November 19, 2013 1:16:00 AM UTC-5, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 00:02:10 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote: Since you have two transfer switches you might have two sub-panels, or one transfer switch cuts off the meter-main while the other transfer switch engages what are considered essential loads in your house. I understand what you're saying. The two things that confuse me a a) Why TWO big boxes? and, b) WHy so big anyway? What the heck is in there? A huge switch? Lots of circuits? A big heat sink? I guess I could open them up and look. :) To clarify though, the generac does kick in whenever the power dies. It also runs once a week, to charge the battery. Normally they run once a week to verify that they are operational, not to charge the battery. The battery is normally charged via the utility AC. Starting a generator just to charge a battery wouldn't be very efficient. |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On Monday, November 18, 2013 1:36:49 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Mon, 18 Nov 2013 05:48:03 -0800 (PST), " wrote: On Sunday, November 17, 2013 9:42:14 PM UTC-5, wrote: On Mon, 18 Nov 2013 01:28:53 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico I checked the voltage with my flukemeter which showed they were each 120 volts ac with respect to the neutral. ...and 240V between them. But, you're saying *those* two wires are 180 degrees out of phase with each other, right? They're the opposite. That's the only way there could be 120V from each to ground and 240V between them. If there were less, they couldn't be opposite. There can't be more. Sigh. Some engineer. Engineers talk in terms of the phase relationship of waveforms. KRW only understands "opposite" Not when there isn't one. You're an illiterate liar, but that's nothing new to anyone here, either. If there is a phase relationship there is one. If it's zero, but opposite direction, that's what it is. I'm sorry of you flunked CrackerJax-U EE-101. Get a refund. Imagine a circle of radius 120 units. From the center to any point on the circle it's 120 units. From one side of the circle to a point directly opposite is 240 units. Between any other two points it's something less than 120 units (never more). And more obfuscation thrown in for good measure. You could listen to KRW. Or you can listen to the IEEE (Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers) Here's a paper from the IEEE that specifically addresses the exact issue: You're a liar, Trader, but that's nothing new. ... Keep calling me a liar, while cutting out the spot on reference I provided from the IEEE from a paper presented at an engineering conference on power. No comment on that, because it's irrefutable that their terminology and opinon on the exact question at hand is the same as mine. And at this point, it appears everyone else too, but you.... http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/artic...number=4520128 " Distribution engineers have treated the standard "singlephase" distribution transformer connection as single phase because from the primary side of the transformer these connections are single phase and in the case of standard rural distribution single phase line to ground. However, with the advent of detailed circuit modeling we are beginning to see distribution modeling and analysis being accomplished past the transformer to the secondary. Which now brings into focus the reality that standard 120/240 secondary systems are not single phase line to ground systems, instead they are three wire systems with two phases and one ground wires. Further, the standard 120/240 secondary is different from the two phase primary system in that the secondary phases are separated by 180 degrees instead of three phases separated by 120 degrees. " Pay special attention to the one sentence: "Which now brings into focus the reality that standard 120/240 secondary systems are not single phase line to ground systems, instead they are three wire systems with two phases and one ground wires. " Feel free to admit at any time that you were wrong. Or keep cursing in the darkness, your choice. |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On 11/19/2013 08:15 AM, wrote:
On Monday, November 18, 2013 11:24:56 PM UTC-5, Danny D'Amico wrote: On Mon, 18 Nov 2013 14:30:50 -0800, Oren wrote: Do you have a demark box for cable / phone lines below the meter. If so, pull the cover and look inside the wall. The rod may be imbedded through the concrete slab? There is no cable where I live. There aren't enough people to make it worth running the cable here, I guess. The only wires we get from utilities are telephone and electricity. We all have to make our own water and find a place to put it when we're done. Plus we all have to figure out how to heat our homes and hot water heaters (most are on propane, but some are on wood). But, there is a phone "demarcation" box (I had to look up "demark") inside the garage (in the center of my picture). There's also a hole in the garage wall, so, I'll stick a flashlight there and look. If I find a rod going into the ground, I'll snap a photo of it. I still am confused as to WHERE exactly the ground goes into the ground versus where the neutral goes into the ground. I know some say they *both* go into the ground at the house, but, I really would like to see that, physically, in my panel to make sure that it is truly the case. Sigh... It's been explained many times that the neutral and ground don't both go into the ground. You even took a pic of the 3 insulated service conductors where they enter your house. It was pointed out to you that the smaller one is the neutral. It runs back to the power transformer. The neutral is connected together with an earth ground at your panel and at the transformer. Or as Doug says, at least they should be..... If this is an older house there may not be a ground rod only a heavy bare copper wire connecting the ground/neutral bus of the panel to the water service entrance. Any gas piping should also be bonded to ground, but that better not be the *only* connection... nate -- replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On Monday, November 18, 2013 4:34:10 PM UTC-5, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Mon, 18 Nov 2013 10:40:18 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote: The main thing I was trying to figure out was what type of service entry that you had. I'd *love* to know all of this information! For example, given this is the service entrance, can anyone tell if my neutral is connected to ground at the house or if it's *not* connected to a ground at the house? http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3780/1...9139da3c_o.gif Here's a closeup of the connections to the ground/neutral of the house: http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5473/1...9b4ea518_o.gif You see that big bare copper wire on the right side, that comes over the top and down part way on the left? It's a ground wire and it's connected right there to the neutral. If anyone can explain how the neutral in the picture is different (or the same) as the ground, that would be enlightening to me (and others)! The neutrals in the house from your 120V loads carry current. The neutral leaving the house back to the Xformer carries the unbalanced current. Grounds don't normally carry current and are they for protection. If a hot wire in a grounded appliance made contact with the metal case, then current would flow in the ground wire. Now it's a little more complicated than that, because the neutral is connected to ground at the service panel and the transformer. So, while the vast majority of the unbalanced current is going to flow back to the Xformer via the neutral because it's an excellent conductor, some small amount will flow via the earth too, because that is an alternate path. It's like having two resistors in parallel, one that's very low in ohms, one that is higher. |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On Tuesday, November 19, 2013 8:32:46 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 11/19/2013 8:27 AM, wrote: On Monday, November 18, 2013 1:36:49 PM UTC-5, wrote: On Mon, 18 Nov 2013 05:48:03 -0800 (PST), " You're a liar, Trader, but that's nothing new. ... Keep calling me a liar, while cutting out the spot on reference I provided from the IEEE from a paper presented at an engineering conference on power. Feel free to admit at any time that you were wrong. Or keep cursing in the darkness, your choice. Anyone but me expect this thread to make the list? Perhaps. I just thought of another way to make krw's day. It's a little complicated and clearly over his pay grade. His position is that with split-phase service, there is only one phase present, that you can't say the two hot legs are 180 deg out of phase, etc, because it originates from only one phase of the primary distribution. Well, then what about open delta? Open delta allows a utility to provide 3 phase service for lighter loads using just TWO transformers, instead of 3. It saves the cost of an additional transformer. One transformer is connected to each of TWO primary high voltage lines. So, they have connections to only 2 primary phases, yet they deliver 3 phase power. According to krw's standards, that should be called 2 phase, because it only uses two of the transmission's 3 phases. Yet it's called 3 phase, there are 3 phases that you can see on a scope and just like the 240V/120V service it's done with transformers. |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On 11/19/2013 12:16 AM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 00:02:10 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote: Since you have two transfer switches you might have two sub-panels, or one transfer switch cuts off the meter-main while the other transfer switch engages what are considered essential loads in your house. I understand what you're saying. The two things that confuse me a a) Why TWO big boxes? and, b) WHy so big anyway? What the heck is in there? A huge switch? Lots of circuits? A big heat sink? I guess I could open them up and look. :) The top 2 breakers feed back through a conduit at the top of the service panel section. This very likely goes to the transfer switches. Two sets of wires then come back into the service panel. One exits out the top right. They are the feeders to subpanels that have backup generator power. The transfer switch boxes each have a contactor (a large relay) that switches one feeder back and forth between normal power and generator. To clarify though, the generac does kick in whenever the power dies. It also runs once a week, to charge the battery. I don't think it powers the house when it does that though. So, somehow, the circuitry must be cut off for the battery charging. Also, almost the entire house, but, not the entire house is energized when the generac kicks in. Most of the lights and outlets are energized (which means both interior circuit breaker panels are being fed), as are most of the outlets. Whatever is feed from the 2 top circuit breakers has backup power. But the outside of the house also has panels, which run the pool and well equipment, which I don't think is energized when the power is out. Come to think of it, the well must be energized? Or we'd run out of water. So, I'm actually not sure what is energized since most things seem to work when the generator kicks in. |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 01:13:33 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:
The pool probably is not ... I'm pretty sure the pool is not on the charger (it has three 1-3/4HP 240V pumps). but I imagine your well is. Unless you have a large storage tank with accompanying pressure tank and pump. There is a man-sized blue tank which is the pressure tank with a bladder inside, and another powerful motor pressurizing the system to something like 80 psi; and, there are 10,000 gallons of water; so, it *could* be that the well isn't running on the generator, but that the pressure system is. Thanks for pointing that out. I will check next time the power goes out. It is odd that there is not a utility fed battery charger, but that "is" an extra expense both in having a second battery charger and the safety interlocks to isolate the two. Interesting idea. I didn't know they even existed. But, it makes sense. Even a basic automotive trickle charger would work just fine to charge the battery! While charging the generator is only running the battery charger. I wonder if the weekly startup also preserves the life of the motor? Is this a scheduled event, or are there battery voltage sensing circuits It's scheduled. The generator fires itself up every Friday at the same time. |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 00:18:40 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:
West or East of 17? East. Past where Summit road isn't Summit Road anymore. |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 06:51:35 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:
The power being horrendus, is worth it for view stupendous We live on a mountain Youth is our fountain And backup is our generatorendus A tree branch takes out our power When we have wind or even a shower We go throw the transfer switch Try not to drive into the ditch And environmentalists all rally for the flower The skyline it is all black I'm thinking of moving myself back I can't stand this condition I maintain my position We've got to buy a Generac. Wow. Just wow! That was clever and hilarious! And apropos all the way. You should sell that to Generac for them to use as their theme song on the web site & in commercials! Thanks for brightening my day! |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On 11/19/2013 10:34 AM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 06:51:35 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote: The power being horrendus, is worth it for view stupendous We live on a mountain Youth is our fountain And backup is our generatorendus A tree branch takes out our power When we have wind or even a shower We go throw the transfer switch Try not to drive into the ditch And environmentalists all rally for the flower The skyline it is all black I'm thinking of moving myself back I can't stand this condition I maintain my position We've got to buy a Generac. Wow. Just wow! That was clever and hilarious! And apropos all the way. You should sell that to Generac for them to use as their theme song on the web site & in commercials! Thanks for brightening my day! Thanks, glad my wit and poetry did some good. They are welcome to have the limerick for free. No credit needed. -- .. Christopher A. Young Learn about Jesus www.lds.org .. |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On Monday, November 18, 2013 9:50:53 PM UTC-5, Doug Miller wrote:
?Q?Nightcrawler=C2=AE?= wrote in news:l6dfsi$2ul$1 @dont-email.me: The two wires are the same phase and that each in reference to the neutral show 180 degrees out of cycle. Both are on the same phase. Wow. Amazing. "180 degrees out of cycle" = "same phase"???? Try "180 degrees out of cycle" = *out of* phase. Good luck explaining that to krw. According to him, the only proper term apparently is "opposite". What a precise engineering term...... I've even given him references to an IEEE paper delivered at a conference of power engineers that specifically addresses the point. But he just ignores it all. |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
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