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220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On 11/16/2013 3:28 PM, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 11/16/2013 12:50 PM, wrote: [snip] How those waveforms are derived, what else you call them in a particular application, doesn't change the fact of what they are and their relationship to each other. There are many ways that such voltage waveforms could be generated. It doesn't change the fact that in a 240V residential service the two hots are in fact 180 deg out of phase realtive to each other. I think the people who are denying that it (residential 120/240) is 2-phase are considering the (1-phase) connection to the transformer primary. You still have 2 phases inside. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split_phase "A split-phase electricity distribution system is a three-wire single-phase distribution system." Everyone working with power will call this a single-phase system. Talking about 2 phases tends to confuse things. People working with power are not likely to talk about 2 phases in what is clearly a single phase system. I have most often heard the 2 different hots referred to as "legs". A "phase" that is always simply the negative of the other "phase" (the same as 180 degrees out of phase) is meaningless. Talking about phase relationships is entirely reasonable. You could be using 2 120V transformers (primaries in parallel, secondaries in series with ground between then), a generator with a 2-phase (180 deg apart) output, or even 2 120V (synchronized) generators. You still have 2 phases. There is a specifically defined 2-phase system. It is not 180 degrees apart. |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
wrote in message ... Hook up a dual input oscilloscope to hot 1 and neutral and hot 2 and neutral at the dryer. Show that plot to a school student and ask: "What is the phase relationship between waveform A and B?" What's your answer? After further review, you are correct. |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
"bud--" wrote in message eb.com... On 11/16/2013 3:56 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote: The manual is he https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B5If...eb&hl=en&pli=1 From the manual, you seem to have it wired correctly for a 3 wire cord. The white wire that is connected to the screw at the frame on the left side of your picture goes to the neutral to give you 120 volt power where it is needed. This is probably the way it comes from the factory as the diagram says "neutral terminal linked to cabinet. The symble that looks like a 3 prong rake with the W over it is a symble for the frame of an electrical device. The W is for a white wire. What do you want to ruin half the thread for? RTFM? I agree the dryer appears to be wired right for a 3-wire connection. My guess is the white wire that connects to the frame at the left connects internally to the neutral, and bonds the neutral to the frame. Sorry for runing half of the thread. A simplle RTFM and we would not have a 500 reply thread..(grin). Guess that I should ruin the other half and say that for 2 phase power the phases are not 180 deg out of phase, but 90 deg out of phase. The split phases that most of the US has is 180 deg out if you want to call it that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-phase_electric_power That explains how true 2 phase power is generated. Now can we get back to spraying some WD-40 on the dryer so the 90 deg will slide over to 180 deg on the phasing. All this could have been avoided if people would just spray some WD-40 in the dryer to displace the water. |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On Sunday, November 17, 2013 1:16:58 PM UTC-5, bud-- wrote:
On 11/16/2013 3:28 PM, Mark Lloyd wrote: On 11/16/2013 12:50 PM, wrote: [snip] How those waveforms are derived, what else you call them in a particular application, doesn't change the fact of what they are and their relationship to each other. There are many ways that such voltage waveforms could be generated. It doesn't change the fact that in a 240V residential service the two hots are in fact 180 deg out of phase realtive to each other. I think the people who are denying that it (residential 120/240) is 2-phase are considering the (1-phase) connection to the transformer primary. You still have 2 phases inside. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split_phase "A split-phase electricity distribution system is a three-wire single-phase distribution system." You left out what follows: "The two halves are 180 degrees apart with respect to center point." Everyone working with power will call this a single-phase system. It's also split phase. When you split something, do you still only have one? Cite me an example. Talking about 2 phases tends to confuse things. Only if you don't understand the issues. People working with power are not likely to talk about 2 phases in what is clearly a single phase system. I have most often heard the 2 different hots referred to as "legs". A "phase" that is always simply the negative of the other "phase" (the same as 180 degrees out of phase) is meaningless. It's no more meaningless than a phase difference of 120 deg, 90 deg or any other difference. It is what it is. If you didn't have a 180 deg difference, you couldn't support 120V and 240V with those 3 wires. Talking about phase relationships is entirely reasonable. And that was what started this when it was stated that the two hots on a 240V circuit have a 180 deg phase difference. It of course is true. You can hook up a scope and see it. But KRW insists that it can't be called a 180 deg phase difference, it has to be called "opposite", which makes no sense. You could be using 2 120V transformers (primaries in parallel, secondaries in series with ground between then), a generator with a 2-phase (180 deg apart) output, or even 2 120V (synchronized) generators. You still have 2 phases. There is a specifically defined 2-phase system. It is not 180 degrees apart. I agree with that. But again, the post that started all this did not call it a "2 phase system". The observation was simply made that the two hots in a 240V connection are 180 deg out of phase with each other. Actually, I think the poster made the error of saying they were 120 deg apart, but that was quickly corrected. |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On Sunday, November 17, 2013 1:31:25 PM UTC-5, Nightcrawler® wrote:
wrote in message ... Hook up a dual input oscilloscope to hot 1 and neutral and hot 2 and neutral at the dryer. Show that plot to a school student and ask: "What is the phase relationship between waveform A and B?" What's your answer? After further review, you are correct. Thank you. Good to see we convinced someone. |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On Sunday, November 17, 2013 11:55:12 AM UTC-5, wrote:
So typical. Instead of writing a few sentences to try to explain your case, you start with the insults. That's because you have no case. Test question: A graph of three sine waves is given, A, B and C, B is shifted 90 deg from A. C is shifted 180 deg from A and looks like it's opposite. For the simple degenerate case of a pure sign wave, they'll look the same. That is *NOT* the general case and that is not how the words are defined. How is a sine wave, which of course is exactly what AC power is, a "degenerate case"? And they don't look the same, they have a "phase" relationship, expressed in degrees to each other. Because a single frequency sine wave is symmetrical, both forward and backward, and top to bottom. Add some distortion (which is always present in the real world) or delay and your gross simplification falls apart. Inverting and phase shifting are entirely different things. Good grief. Are you for real? Now you're going to claim that if we hook up two inputs of a scope to the two 240V hots, the waveforms are going to be so far different from perfect sine waves that the phase relationship can't be determined? It doesn't fall apart at all. You could have a sine wave and a sine wave with lots of noise on it. As long as they are recognizable as oscillating waveforms with the same freq, it's entirely appropriate to ask what the phase relationship is between them. And in this case the relationship is that they differ by 180 deg. irrelevance snipped - though I should snip everything you write Yes, because you refuse to look at anything that shows you're wrong. You're some piece of work, Trader. You can't admit that you're wrong *IN ANYTHING*. Even though you claim to be an EE, you're wrong. Get a refund. Invest in Cracker Jax. It's better than your degree. How those waveforms are derived, what else you call them in a particular application, doesn't change the fact of what they are and their relationship to each other. There are many ways that such voltage waveforms could be generated. It doesn't change the fact that in a 240V residential service the two hots are in fact 180 deg out of phase realtive to each other. Words mean things. You can use them to lie all you want but I'll call you on it. Is wikipedia lying too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-phase_electric_power What do they say about scientology? A split-phase electricity distribution system is a three-wire single-phase distribution system. It is the AC equivalent of the original Edison three-wire direct current system. Its primary advantage is that it saves conductor material over a single-ended single-phase system while only requiring single phase on the supply side of the distribution transformer.[1] The two halves are 180 degrees apart with respect to center point. They're wrong. I see and your reference would be? Read the last sentence. They are saying exactly what I, Mark Loyd and at least one other person have been telling you. And that is that the two hots at the dryer are 180 deg out of phase with each other. They're wrong. I see, and your reference would be? Here's another reference, an app note from an electrical eqpt manufacturer, the describes split single phase: http://www.behlman.com/applications/AC%20basics.pdf "The two legs, represented by Phase A and Phase B, are 180 degrees apart. " Bingo. Exactly what Mark and I have been saying all along. Hook up a scope and see. Or dig your hole ever deeper as usual, your choice. |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 09:39:03 -0800 (PST), "
wrote: On Sunday, November 17, 2013 11:24:31 AM UTC-5, wrote: On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 06:00:57 -0800 (PST), " wrote: On Saturday, November 16, 2013 6:03:52 PM UTC-5, wrote: On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 15:09:54 -0600, Mark Lloyd wrote: On 11/16/2013 11:09 AM, wrote: On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 09:54:39 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote: wrote: On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 01:17:23 -0500, Wes Groleau wrote: On 11-15-2013, 19:58, wrote: 180 degrees, but technically, no. It's opposite sign, not 180 degrees out of phase. Same thing No, it's not. It's one phase. Hi, It's called bi-phase. aka Edison circuit. Wrong. It's called "split-phase". ...because that's *exactly* what it is. "phase" has a meaning. There's still 2 of them. "split-phase" sounds right too. Two-phase is something entirely different (and quite rare). I think I've heard about that. Are the phases 90 degrees apart? Yes. From it, any variation or number of phases can be easily generated (efficiently). It's just a little trig and a transformer. The fact that there is this different 2 phase system doesn't prevent the usual one from being 2 phase. That's be like saying you don't have 2 colors of holiday lights if they're just red and green. Words mean things. The proper term for the Edison connection is "split-phase". It *is* a single phase that is split by a center-tapped transformer (center grounded). But that isn't what you objected to. You objected to someone saying the two hot legs at the dryer are out of phase by 180 deg with each other. Get a life Trader. You were wrong then and you're still wrong. Deal with it. That is true as can be seen on a scope. And when you split something, can you cite an example where after splitting, you still have just one? Yes. It's still only one (and it's inverse). Get over your misconceptions. I really thought you were an engineer. A "sanitation engineer" perhaps? Typical. Don't respond to the specific points that go to the issue, just start with the usual insults. A sure sign that you've lost the argument and can't address the points. Typical lies. I've responded to EVERY one of your points but you keep asking the same stupid damned questions, over, and over, and over, and... You're either incredibly stupid or completely illiterate. Your engineering skills sure suck. You're in management, aren't you? Here are some references for you that say exactly what I and Mark Loyd are saying: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-phase_electric_power "A split-phase electricity distribution system is a three-wire single-phase distribution system. It is the AC equivalent of the original Edison three-wire direct current system. Its primary advantage is that it saves conductor material over a single-ended single-phase system while only requiring single phase on the supply side of the distribution transformer.[1] The two halves are 180 degrees apart with respect to center point." Slang is often not the real world. Since you believe it is, you're a damned fool (duh!). Note the last sentence. You can't even read. no point in responding any more. Everything's been said. You're simply too dense to absorb the facts |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 12:16:58 -0600, bud-- wrote:
On 11/16/2013 3:28 PM, Mark Lloyd wrote: On 11/16/2013 12:50 PM, wrote: [snip] How those waveforms are derived, what else you call them in a particular application, doesn't change the fact of what they are and their relationship to each other. There are many ways that such voltage waveforms could be generated. It doesn't change the fact that in a 240V residential service the two hots are in fact 180 deg out of phase realtive to each other. I think the people who are denying that it (residential 120/240) is 2-phase are considering the (1-phase) connection to the transformer primary. You still have 2 phases inside. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split_phase "A split-phase electricity distribution system is a three-wire single-phase distribution system." Everyone working with power will call this a single-phase system. Talking about 2 phases tends to confuse things. People working with power are not likely to talk about 2 phases in what is clearly a single phase system. I have most often heard the 2 different hots referred to as "legs". A "phase" that is always simply the negative of the other "phase" (the same as 180 degrees out of phase) is meaningless. No, it's not meaningless. That's what it is. It's off the opposite side of the transformer so *is* a negative. Talking about phase relationships is entirely reasonable. When there is a phase relationship, it is. In the case of an Edison connection there isn't, between the two legs. They're opposites. If you cut the power to the transformer, both legs will disappear together. There will not be a pi difference. If there is a line distortion, it will appear at the SAME time on both legs, but opposite WRT each other. There will not be a phase difference. Saying there is, is often slang but it just adds confusion, as you point out. Saying that there are two phases (in an Edison circuit) confuses the issue completely. There simply aren't. There is a reason they're known as "legs", not "phases". You could be using 2 120V transformers (primaries in parallel, secondaries in series with ground between then), a generator with a 2-phase (180 deg apart) output, or even 2 120V (synchronized) generators. You still have 2 phases. There is a specifically defined 2-phase system. It is not 180 degrees apart. Right. The only useful two-phase system I've seen has them 90degrees apart. |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On 11/17/2013 5:57 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 09:39:03 -0800 (PST), " wrote: Slang is often not the real world. Since you believe it is, you're a damned fool (duh!). Note the last sentence. You can't even read. no point in responding any more. Everything's been said. You're simply too dense to absorb the facts ****ing contests are part of Usenet. But, also is trimming text. 265 lines of text to say that you're finished speaking? -- .. Christopher A. Young Learn about Jesus www.lds.org .. |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
Is any of that correct? Or am I wrong (again)? 3 phase power is in interesting thing. At the generator (I am simplifying here a bit) there is a rotor that spins and there are 3 pickup coils around it spaced at 120 degrees. This is 3 phase power. If you connect this to a motor with 3 coil spaced at 120 deg the motor will spin in lock step with the generator IN the SAME direction. This is the kind of power used for many large industrial applications. The power in your home is derived form ONE of these wires. The one phase goes through a where TWO copies of the same waver are created, but one is the inversion of the other. Each of these two voltage are 120 V (in the US) relative to ground. And there is 240 voltages across them. Technically both of these waves are derived from the SAME phase. One is the inverse of the other. But it is the same signal as if it were 180 degrees apart. If you put another imaginary coil in the generator 180 deg from one of the other, this would create the same two signals. In reality there is not a coil at 180 degrees so technically the power in your home is SINGLE phase and the the two voltages are inverse of each other. This is commonly referred to as 180 deg out of phase because it is equivalent but in reality it is not created that way. It is created by an inversion. Back to the dryer, in the old 3 wire systems, the safety ground and the neutral are the same wire and this was allowed by code even though it is stupid and can be dangerous. New installations require a 4 wire connection where the neutral and safety ground are separate wires. If you have dryer connected by a 3 wire system in your house, I would suggest you add another safety ground wire just in case the neutral/ground develops an OPEN circuit which could feed dangerous voltage onto the case of the appliance. Mark |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 18:18:16 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote: On 11/17/2013 5:57 PM, wrote: On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 09:39:03 -0800 (PST), " wrote: Slang is often not the real world. Since you believe it is, you're a damned fool (duh!). Note the last sentence. You can't even read. no point in responding any more. Everything's been said. You're simply too dense to absorb the facts ****ing contests are part of Usenet. But, also is trimming text. 265 lines of text to say that you're finished speaking? *YOU* want to play net-nanny? Oh, the irony! |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 14:44:55 -0800 (PST), "
wrote: On Sunday, November 17, 2013 11:55:12 AM UTC-5, wrote: So typical. Instead of writing a few sentences to try to explain your case, you start with the insults. That's because you have no case. Test question: A graph of three sine waves is given, A, B and C, B is shifted 90 deg from A. C is shifted 180 deg from A and looks like it's opposite. For the simple degenerate case of a pure sign wave, they'll look the same. That is *NOT* the general case and that is not how the words are defined. How is a sine wave, which of course is exactly what AC power is, a "degenerate case"? And they don't look the same, they have a "phase" relationship, expressed in degrees to each other. Because a single frequency sine wave is symmetrical, both forward and backward, and top to bottom. Add some distortion (which is always present in the real world) or delay and your gross simplification falls apart. Inverting and phase shifting are entirely different things. Good grief. Are you for real? Now you're going to claim that if we hook up two inputs of a scope to the two 240V hots, the waveforms are going to be so far different from perfect sine waves that the phase relationship can't be determined? Good ****ing Christ, you're stupid! The phase relationship is exactly zero but one is the negative of the other. The point is that the distortion will show on both at the SAME TIME, not pi degrees later AND it will be OPPOSITE. ...because there is NO PHASE DIFFERENCE. There is a sign difference. It doesn't fall apart at all. You could have a sine wave and a sine wave with lots of noise on it. As long as they are recognizable as oscillating waveforms with the same freq, it's entirely appropriate to ask what the phase relationship is between them. And in this case the relationship is that they differ by 180 deg. God, you're stupid! snip more illiterate rants, unread |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On 11/17/2013 6:35 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 14:44:55 -0800 (PST), " wrote: It doesn't fall apart at all. You could have a sine wave and a sine wave with lots of noise on it. As long as they are recognizable as oscillating waveforms with the same freq, it's entirely appropriate to ask what the phase relationship is between them. And in this case the relationship is that they differ by 180 deg. God, you're stupid! snip more illiterate rants, unread And, you fill our usenet readers with more evil speaking. -- .. Christopher A. Young Learn about Jesus www.lds.org .. |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 16:16:25 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:
You can't go outside and look at it? It is rather obvious. Here is a picture taken just for you: http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2886/1...21cf1404_o.gif I wish I actually understood what you're trying to ascertain so that I could give you the answer you seek to help you explain it to me. What I can *see* are three huge aluminum wires going into the circuit panel at the outside wall of the house (my power wires come from underground, which is the code around here). All three are insulated; one, the smaller-gauge wire, is striped (presumably that's the neutral which, I believe, is tied to ground somewhere a few hundred yards away, and which theoretically carries the current back to the power company to complete their power loop). What does the insulation on all three incoming cables tell you? |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 17:53:52 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:
Draw the wiring out to visualize, it is just one winding with center tap! BTW, this is a picture of my incoming mains (my power comes from underground). http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2886/1...21cf1404_o.gif Does that picture tell us anything about the neutral with respect to the ground? |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On 11/16/13 11:09 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 09:54:39 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote: wrote: On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 01:17:23 -0500, Wes Groleau wrote: On 11-15-2013, 19:58, wrote: 180 degrees, but technically, no. It's opposite sign, not 180 degrees out of phase. Same thing No, it's not. It's one phase. Hi, It's called bi-phase. aka Edison circuit. Wrong. It's called "split-phase". ...because that's *exactly* what it is. Two-phase is something entirely different (and quite rare). Most pivot irrigation system run off 3ø 480VAC. We sometimes tap power off the supply for the grain bins. Those are typically 1ø?? 240 VAC like the supply for dryers. We add a step up transformer and a phase converter to make the pivots run. Does that alter your thinking? |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 16:27:09 -0800, wrote:
I replied to your original post explaining why you're wrong. I'm perfectly happy to be wrong, as long as I can figure out from the correction what the right answer is. That is where you're going wrong. You don't take two of the three phase wires, you take ONE of them and put it through a center pole step-down transformer. That gives you two hots and a center connection. Hmmm... Ok. I did not realize that you're only getting *one* of the three hot wires from the distribution pole. If it helps, here is a picture of what is coming into my house from underground, from the transformer: http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2886/1...21cf1404_o.gif I had to break a seal to open that separate panel cover, so I guess they don't want us messing around with these wires; but it seems if I had an oscilloscope, I would check the phase difference between the two thicker non-striped wires. I checked the voltage with my flukemeter which showed they were each 120 volts ac with respect to the neutral. But, you're saying *those* two wires are 180 degrees out of phase with each other, right? |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On Mon, 18 Nov 2013 00:48:09 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote: On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 16:16:25 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote: You can't go outside and look at it? It is rather obvious. Here is a picture taken just for you: http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2886/1...21cf1404_o.gif I wish I actually understood what you're trying to ascertain so that I could give you the answer you seek to help you explain it to me. What I can *see* are three huge aluminum wires going into the circuit panel at the outside wall of the house (my power wires come from underground, which is the code around here). All three are insulated; one, the smaller-gauge wire, is striped (presumably that's the neutral which, I believe, is tied to ground somewhere a few hundred yards away, and which theoretically carries the current back to the power company to complete their power loop). The neutral only carries the difference of the current in the other two wires - the reason it can be smaller. What does the insulation on all three incoming cables tell you? That all three conductors are insulated? |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 18:36:17 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote: On 11/17/2013 6:31 PM, wrote: On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 18:18:16 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote: On 11/17/2013 5:57 PM, wrote: On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 09:39:03 -0800 (PST), " ****ing contests are part of Usenet. But, also is trimming text. 265 lines of text to say that you're finished speaking? *YOU* want to play net-nanny? Oh, the irony! I'm also on nanny cam, in case it makes my butt look big. But, I do trim text most of the time. The person that took, what fifteen years, to finally learn to not top post? The one who constantly adds off-topic nonsense to threads? You think anyone is going to listen to your net-copping? You're deluded Mormon. |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 17:58:35 -0500, krw wrote:
Remember, a circle is 360 degrees (what happened to metric?). I was always told that base 60 allowed the Babylonians to divide by the most numbers (1,2,3,4,5,6). As I understand it, the Babylonians created the 360 degree circle by starting from pie sections. BASE 16 didn't work for them: a) If you split a pie in half (vertically), you get 2 parts. b) If you split that in half (horizontally), you get 4 parts. c) If you split that yet again in half (with an "X") you get 8 parts. d) If you keep doing that, you get 16 parts e) This goes on depending on when you want to stop. 16 is dividable by 1,2,&4. But, if you split into 12 parts instead of 16, you can now divide by more things, i.e., you can divide 12 by 1,2,3,4,&6. If you keep dividing, your 12 becomes 60, and now you can divide by 1,2,3,4,5,&6 (and a few more). So, the clock, I'm told, became 12 hours and 60 minutes. How that 60 minutes multiplied by 6 to 360 degrees, I'm told, is just a matter of having better granularity. So, if I understand what I really didn't understand, base 60 was merely more dividable by things than any other base the Babylonians could come up with. But, I could be wrong because they came up with the Metric system for a reason ... |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 16:11:53 -0800 (PST), "
wrote: On Sunday, November 17, 2013 5:57:38 PM UTC-5, wrote: Typical. Don't respond to the specific points that go to the issue, just start with the usual insults. A sure sign that you've lost the argument and can't address the points. Typical lies. I've responded to EVERY one of your points but you keep asking the same stupid damned questions, over, and over, and over, and... Of course you didn't respond. The few responses you give are typically one word, like "wrong" or some sarcastic remark that ignores the issue. Idiot. I've responded *MANY* times. You keep saying *exactly* the same thing in different ways and expect a different, wrong, answer. Sorry, but you may have nothing else to do in your life but argue, I'm done playing your game. If you haven't been able to read what I've written by now, I'm not wasting any more time on you. As an engineer, you certainly suck. |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 16:56:23 -0500, Ralph Mowery wrote:
The manual is he https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B5If...eb&hl=en&pli=1 Very nice. Thank you. You're hope that the USENET is still alive & well! I'm printing it, and will leave it with the dryer and refer to it when I debug! |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 18:46:47 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote: On 11/17/2013 6:35 PM, wrote: On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 14:44:55 -0800 (PST), " wrote: It doesn't fall apart at all. You could have a sine wave and a sine wave with lots of noise on it. As long as they are recognizable as oscillating waveforms with the same freq, it's entirely appropriate to ask what the phase relationship is between them. And in this case the relationship is that they differ by 180 deg. God, you're stupid! snip more illiterate rants, unread And, you fill our usenet readers with more evil speaking. I see you're insisting on being the net-dummy today. You are good at it, Mormon. |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 16:28:22 -0800 (PST), "
wrote: On Sunday, November 17, 2013 6:06:30 PM UTC-5, wrote: On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 12:16:58 -0600, bud-- wrote: On 11/16/2013 3:28 PM, Mark Lloyd wrote: On 11/16/2013 12:50 PM, wrote: [snip] How those waveforms are derived, what else you call them in a particular application, doesn't change the fact of what they are and their relationship to each other. There are many ways that such voltage waveforms could be generated. It doesn't change the fact that in a 240V residential service the two hots are in fact 180 deg out of phase realtive to each other. I think the people who are denying that it (residential 120/240) is 2-phase are considering the (1-phase) connection to the transformer primary. You still have 2 phases inside. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split_phase "A split-phase electricity distribution system is a three-wire single-phase distribution system." Everyone working with power will call this a single-phase system. Talking about 2 phases tends to confuse things. People working with power are not likely to talk about 2 phases in what is clearly a single phase system. I have most often heard the 2 different hots referred to as "legs". A "phase" that is always simply the negative of the other "phase" (the same as 180 degrees out of phase) is meaningless. No, it's not meaningless. That's what it is. It's off the opposite side of the transformer so *is* a negative. It's not meaningless. It's a 180 deg phase difference. You're wrong and can't read. no more time wasted on the pretend engineer |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 16:56:23 -0500, Ralph Mowery wrote:
From the manual, you seem to have it wired correctly for a 3 wire cord. The white wire that is connected to the screw at the frame on the left side of your picture goes to the neutral to give you 120 volt power where it is needed. Thanks for confirming that. It was wired professionally (Costco delivery team), and I never touched it since (except to plug it into the wall). |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
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220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 21:13:46 -0500, krw wrote:
What does the insulation on all three incoming cables tell you? That all three conductors are insulated? :) Well, I was asking because I was told to see if the wires were insulated, so, now that I know they're insulated, I was trying to figure out why I was asked to find that out. |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On Mon, 18 Nov 2013 02:16:18 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote: On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 17:58:35 -0500, krw wrote: Remember, a circle is 360 degrees (what happened to metric?). I was always told that base 60 allowed the Babylonians to divide by the most numbers (1,2,3,4,5,6). OMG! I thought it was only the US that used a non-French system! As I understand it, the Babylonians created the 360 degree circle by starting from pie sections. Pi sections? No, it was because 12 (hours), 60(minutes), and 360(degrees) are such a beautiful numbers. They have so many factors. BASE 16 didn't work for them: a) If you split a pie in half (vertically), you get 2 parts. b) If you split that in half (horizontally), you get 4 parts. c) If you split that yet again in half (with an "X") you get 8 parts. d) If you keep doing that, you get 16 parts e) This goes on depending on when you want to stop. 16 is dividable by 1,2,&4. Where did that come from? But, if you split into 12 parts instead of 16, you can now divide by more things, i.e., you can divide 12 by 1,2,3,4,&6. If you keep dividing, your 12 becomes 60, and now you can divide by 1,2,3,4,5,&6 (and a few more). Yep. It's a beautiful number. So, the clock, I'm told, became 12 hours and 60 minutes. How that 60 minutes multiplied by 6 to 360 degrees, I'm told, is just a matter of having better granularity. So, if I understand what I really didn't understand, base 60 was merely more dividable by things than any other base the Babylonians could come up with. Sure, but Pi had nothing to do with it. But, I could be wrong because they came up with the Metric system for a reason ... A good reason but like anything French, it's certainly not perfect. |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On Mon, 18 Nov 2013 02:24:31 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote: On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 21:13:46 -0500, krw wrote: What does the insulation on all three incoming cables tell you? That all three conductors are insulated? :) Well, I was asking because I was told to see if the wires were insulated, so, now that I know they're insulated, I was trying to figure out why I was asked to find that out. All it tells me is that it's a neutral (it does carry current). That it's smaller and insulated sounds normal to me. |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
I can read and I'm sure everyone following the thread can too. They know you've once again made a complete ass of yourself. The IEEE paper proves it. But I know you'll just say that's wrong too. BTW, where are YOUR references? Hi, In summary between L1 and L2(240V) there is no phase to talk about. Between L1 and CT, L2 and CT(2 x 120V ) there is phase to talk about. If it were single phase one, this two legs will have alternating output. I had to dig out my old school text book. And I had to drag out my Tek. dual trace scope in a LONG time. Nothing to difficult to understand, really! |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On Mon, 18 Nov 2013 01:28:53 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote: On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 16:27:09 -0800, wrote: I replied to your original post explaining why you're wrong. I'm perfectly happy to be wrong, as long as I can figure out from the correction what the right answer is. That is where you're going wrong. You don't take two of the three phase wires, you take ONE of them and put it through a center pole step-down transformer. That gives you two hots and a center connection. Hmmm... Ok. I did not realize that you're only getting *one* of the three hot wires from the distribution pole. If it helps, here is a picture of what is coming into my house from underground, from the transformer: http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2886/1...21cf1404_o.gif I had to break a seal to open that separate panel cover, so I guess they don't want us messing around with these wires; but it seems if I had an oscilloscope, I would check the phase difference between the two thicker non-striped wires. Be careful. You might make a lot of smoke. ...if you're lucky. I checked the voltage with my flukemeter which showed they were each 120 volts ac with respect to the neutral. ....and 240V between them. But, you're saying *those* two wires are 180 degrees out of phase with each other, right? They're the opposite. That's the only way there could be 120V from each to ground and 240V between them. If there were less, they couldn't be opposite. There can't be more. Imagine a circle of radius 120 units. From the center to any point on the circle it's 120 units. From one side of the circle to a point directly opposite is 240 units. Between any other two points it's something less than 120 units (never more). |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On Sunday, November 17, 2013 9:17:27 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 16:11:53 -0800 (PST), " wrote: On Sunday, November 17, 2013 5:57:38 PM UTC-5, wrote: Typical. Don't respond to the specific points that go to the issue, just start with the usual insults. A sure sign that you've lost the argument and can't address the points. Typical lies. I've responded to EVERY one of your points but you keep asking the same stupid damned questions, over, and over, and over, and... Of course you didn't respond. The few responses you give are typically one word, like "wrong" or some sarcastic remark that ignores the issue. Idiot. I've responded *MANY* times. You keep saying *exactly* the same thing in different ways and expect a different, wrong, answer. Sorry, but you may have nothing else to do in your life but argue, I'm done playing your game. If you haven't been able to read what I've written by now, I'm not wasting any more time on you. As an engineer, you certainly suck. Then the IEEE, the most respected electrical engineering organization in the country, must suck too, because here's a paper from the IEEE that specifically addresses the exact issue: http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/artic...number=4520128 "Distribution engineers have treated the standard "singlephase" distribution transformer connection as single phase because from the primary side of the transformer these connections are single phase and in the case of standard rural distribution single phase line to ground. However, with the advent of detailed circuit modeling we are beginning to see distribution modeling and analysis being accomplished past the transformer to the secondary. Which now brings into focus the reality that standard 120/240 secondary systems are not single phase line to ground systems, instead they are three wire systems with two phases and one ground wires. Further, the standard 120/240 secondary is different from the two phase primary system in that the secondary phases are separated by 180 degrees instead of three phases separated by 120 degrees. What all of this means is that analysis software and methods must now deal with an electrical system requiring a different set of algorithms than those used to model and analyze the primary system. This paper will describe the modeling and analysis of the single-phase center tap transformer serving 120 Volt and 240 Volt single-phase loads from a three-wire secondary." Here's the essential point that says I'm right and you're wrong. I've seperated it out for you, since you clearly have a learning problem: "Which now brings into focus the reality that standard 120/240 secondary systems are not single phase line to ground systems, instead they are three wire systems with two phases and one ground wires." That's from a paper published by the peer reviewed IEEE and delivered at a conference of power engineers. Read it and try to learn something instead of hurling insults. |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On Sunday, November 17, 2013 8:28:53 PM UTC-5, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 16:27:09 -0800, wrote: I replied to your original post explaining why you're wrong. I'm perfectly happy to be wrong, as long as I can figure out from the correction what the right answer is. That is where you're going wrong. You don't take two of the three phase wires, you take ONE of them and put it through a center pole step-down transformer. That gives you two hots and a center connection. Hmmm... Ok. I did not realize that you're only getting *one* of the three hot wires from the distribution pole. If it helps, here is a picture of what is coming into my house from underground, from the transformer: http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2886/1...21cf1404_o.gif I had to break a seal to open that separate panel cover, so I guess they don't want us messing around with these wires; but it seems if I had an oscilloscope, I would check the phase difference between the two thicker non-striped wires. I checked the voltage with my flukemeter which showed they were each 120 volts ac with respect to the neutral. But, you're saying *those* two wires are 180 degrees out of phase with each other, right? Yes. If you graph each hot vs the neutral, you will have two 120V sine waves that differ 180 deg in phase. |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On Sunday, November 17, 2013 9:42:14 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Mon, 18 Nov 2013 01:28:53 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico I checked the voltage with my flukemeter which showed they were each 120 volts ac with respect to the neutral. ...and 240V between them. But, you're saying *those* two wires are 180 degrees out of phase with each other, right? They're the opposite. That's the only way there could be 120V from each to ground and 240V between them. If there were less, they couldn't be opposite. There can't be more. Sigh. Some engineer. Engineers talk in terms of the phase relationship of waveforms. KRW only understands "opposite" Imagine a circle of radius 120 units. From the center to any point on the circle it's 120 units. From one side of the circle to a point directly opposite is 240 units. Between any other two points it's something less than 120 units (never more). And more obfuscation thrown in for good measure. You could listen to KRW. Or you can listen to the IEEE (Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers) Here's a paper from the IEEE that specifically addresses the exact issue: http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/artic...number=4520128 "Distribution engineers have treated the standard "singlephase" distribution transformer connection as single phase because from the primary side of the transformer these connections are single phase and in the case of standard rural distribution single phase line to ground. However, with the advent of detailed circuit modeling we are beginning to see distribution modeling and analysis being accomplished past the transformer to the secondary. Which now brings into focus the reality that standard 120/240 secondary systems are not single phase line to ground systems, instead they are three wire systems with two phases and one ground wires. Further, the standard 120/240 secondary is different from the two phase primary system in that the secondary phases are separated by 180 degrees instead of three phases separated by 120 degrees. What all of this means is that analysis software and methods must now deal with an electrical system requiring a different set of algorithms than those used to model and analyze the primary system. This paper will describe the modeling and analysis of the single-phase center tap transformer serving 120 Volt and 240 Volt single-phase loads from a three-wire secondary." From the above, here's the essential, irrefutable point: "Which now brings into focus the reality that standard 120/240 secondary systems are not single phase line to ground systems, instead they are three wire systems with two phases and one ground wires." That's from a paper published by the peer reviewed IEEE and delivered at a conference of power engineers, not from the flapping gums of KRW. |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message ... On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 16:27:09 -0800, wrote: I replied to your original post explaining why you're wrong. I'm perfectly happy to be wrong, as long as I can figure out from the correction what the right answer is. That is where you're going wrong. You don't take two of the three phase wires, you take ONE of them and put it through a center pole step-down transformer. That gives you two hots and a center connection. Hmmm... Ok. I did not realize that you're only getting *one* of the three hot wires from the distribution pole. If it helps, here is a picture of what is coming into my house from underground, from the transformer: http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2886/1...21cf1404_o.gif I had to break a seal to open that separate panel cover, so I guess they don't want us messing around with these wires; but it seems if I had an oscilloscope, I would check the phase difference between the two thicker non-striped wires. I checked the voltage with my flukemeter which showed they were each 120 volts ac with respect to the neutral. But, you're saying *those* two wires are 180 degrees out of phase with each other, right? The two wires are the same phase and that each in reference to the neutral show 180 degrees out of cycle. Both are on the same phase. |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message ... On 11/17/2013 5:57 PM, wrote: On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 09:39:03 -0800 (PST), " wrote: ****ing contests are part of Usenet. But, also is trimming text. 265 lines of text to say that you're finished speaking? Maybe he likes hairy bush. You know, when they get all slippery and wet, it is much easier to grab a handful and yank them back towards you. :-) |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
On Sunday, November 17, 2013 6:06:30 PM UTC-5, wrote: is, is often slang but it just adds confusion, as you point out. That is the rub. Different nomenclature for different layers of the profession. When I hooked up a genset I (the trade) referred to each phase as A, B, and C, respectively. One got brown tape, one got orange, and one got yellow. Generator taps are labeled 1 through 4, with 4 being the neutral (a true neutral) and 1-3 following the A-C. The 1 winding is phase A, the 2 winding is phase B, and the 3 winding is phase C. Using the term "phase" denotes a winding on the generator, not the sine wave it creates. Phasing a generator was only making sure that the generator rotation matched utility (clock/counter-clockwise). So, I think you may understand the confusion when the term "phase" is describing the sine wave off of a single phase. His scope readings are correct, but I haven't touched a scope since 1984, and really could not tell you how it hooks up anymore, or whether he is using polarized inputs. You know, the meter says...when reality is something else. My Fluke 87 told me a lot of things. Did I always believe it? No, when in question I busted out the mega expensive Simpson to clarify matters. Analog does trump digital at times. Anyway, just blathering on, here. |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message ... On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 16:16:25 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote: You can't go outside and look at it? It is rather obvious. Here is a picture taken just for you: http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2886/1...21cf1404_o.gif I wish I actually understood what you're trying to ascertain so that I could give you the answer you seek to help you explain it to me. What I can *see* are three huge aluminum wires going into the circuit panel at the outside wall of the house (my power wires come from underground, which is the code around here). All three are insulated; one, the smaller-gauge wire, is striped (presumably that's the neutral which, I believe, is tied to ground somewhere a few hundred yards away, and which theoretically carries the current back to the power company to complete their power loop). What does the insulation on all three incoming cables tell you? The main thing I was trying to figure out was what type of service entry that you had. I errantly thought that you had overhead, but I am glad that you clarified things. All three wires go to the same location. There are terminations underground that you cannot see, and if you wanted to pop open an underground box cover you will see some termination points via direct burial connectors. Though, I am certain the utility provider has the lid locked or uses special 5 sided bolt(s) to secure the lid. The point, off in the distance, probably goes to the same box that feeds your house. As an aside, is there a metal (copper clad) rod sticking out of the ground underneath, or there about, your meter- main? If so, is there a wire coming off it (bare or green)? Anyway, the picture that you show is obviously the feed, and the wire with the stripe is the "neutral", but as is evident there is not a ground connection in this section of the enclosure. The two bus bars going to the right go straight to the upper meter "stabs". Prongs that the meter slides into. There are four. The lower stabs feed the residence. The "neutral" continues up into a raceway, before going to the right, via another bus bar, and comes down along side the meter, probably on the right side. There should be a lug at the end of this bus and this is where your ground bond will be done. Ground rods/ufer and metal water pipe (if present) within 10ft of said pipe's entry into the residence is what will be utilized to facilitate this process. It is possible that the ground rods might be inside the footprint of the building, underneath the structure. Not knowing how the place is built only has me speculating. Hmmm, one thing I did not ask is whether or not you are the only customer on this feed. If so, there might not be an underground box, and the wires go straight to the transformer, and might do so even if you are not. Different places run their utilities in their own way. Regardless, the thingy you see off in the distance, which is grounded, is for the transformer center tap, and does not feed your service. That line will come straight off of the transformer. Alright, I am done with this, for now. |
220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?
"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message ... On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 17:53:52 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote: Draw the wiring out to visualize, it is just one winding with center tap! BTW, this is a picture of my incoming mains (my power comes from underground). http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2886/1...21cf1404_o.gif Does that picture tell us anything about the neutral with respect to the ground? No. |
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