On Sat, 28 Sep 2013 16:26:57 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 28 Sep 2013 11:06:46 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Sat, 28 Sep 2013 10:41:21 -0500, Dean Hoffman
" wrote:

On 9/28/13 10:29 AM, Oren wrote:
On Sat, 28 Sep 2013 07:15:30 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

At what point can anyone do something
about a loon, who should do it, how, etc.

Not much. After the Newtown shooting, PBS had a show on the mind of a
psychopath. Bottom line was that science still cannot figure them
out. Yet people still want to blame the gun.


How often do the neighbors express surprise that Joe, Fred, or Bob
could've done such a thing? It seems like that comment crops up in news
stories frequently.

Likely that people do not want to get involved, taking a passive
position? Joe, Fred, or Bob may say 'things', speak "words", but do
they 'hear" what was said or take action?

Or admit (perhaps to themselves) that they knew or should have known
that they should have done something. Think: spousal abuse.

Even in other things, folks really do not hear what the words meant.
For example; a guy at work (grouchy old man, always yelling at
convicts) would say things like "things will be better SOON". Two
guys in his department went to his house one day to have a few beers.
They found him hanging in a tree. Dead as a door nail.

Another guy I thought may have had mental problems, staff thought he
was just an asshole. Turns out he had a brain tumor.

One guy wrote a suicide note before he came to work. His wife found
the note and called the shift supervisor and reported it. His plan
was to use a government firearm to shoot himself on the job. His plan
was thwarted and he was "removed from service".

Point is, we need to "listen" and not just hear words.

On Sat, 28 Sep 2013 18:01:45 -0400, wrote:

Also note that
Chicago was forced by SCotUS to grant gun permits.

Yes. But SCOTUS still allows them to regulate. Like not allow gun
stores in the city and in places burdensome to the gun owner.

AND charge ridiculous prices for permits, long waits for approval, or
a massive red-tape for permits. The states can still regulate.

On Sat, 28 Sep 2013 18:03:49 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 28 Sep 2013 17:41:50 -0400, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

How about a mass shooting in a location where
there are legally armed citizens?

(Note, I didn't say civillians.)

Giffords is the only one I can come up with.

In that case, the psychopathic shooter still bought his weapon
"legally". Reporting of his mental state fell through the cracks.

Just like in the Navy Yard shooting.

On Sun, 29 Sep 2013 11:40:55 -0400, wrote:

This is probably the infamous "AK-17 shotgun" that a couple of the
media types were talking about in the early stages.

Come on, it was an "AR-15 shotgun". An "AK-47 shotgun" isn't nearly
as scary because it's a socialist, rather than an evil capitalist WMD.

Did it use high capacity clips?

On Sun, 29 Sep 2013 11:48:38 -0400, wrote:

And the armed citizen showed up right
about the time they mobbed the guy?

I believe the big difference in the Giffords shooting was that, unlike
the other mass shootings, she was specifically targeted. In the other
instances, the shooter simply wanted to do the most carnage so a
gun-free victim zone was the obvious choice. Getting rid of them my
not get rid of mass shootings but it will tend to make schools and
such a lower priority target. OTOH, if it weren't children killed,
lefties wouldn't have their graves to dance on.

Right. The target was a government official. The Secret Service will
be inside his ass with a probe for the rest of his life - monitored as
a "Threat to Government Official" classification.

Did it use high capacity clips?

_Boy suspended from school over gun-shaped key chain_

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2013/09/29/Boy-suspended-from-school-over-gun-shaped-key-chain/UPI-55651380464008/#ixzz2gJTyvx1Y

"Off to the re-education camps, forthwith". He may poke an eye out.

--
....our great nation is under attack by termites...attacking the foundation - Louisiana Senator Elbert Guillory

I should explain that I was expecting that my first post in this thread would cause a stir.

I make my own beer, and the night I typed that post I had dipped a bit too deeply into my home made beer.

But, that doesn't mean I said something I didn't mean. It only means I said things that I wouldn't have normally said.

I've read everyone's response to my post, but I felt it was better that I didn't respond. I don't know very much about guns, so I don't want to get into an argument I can't win. But, before anyone jumps all over me for saying that, I also don't know very much about capital punishment, abortion, nuclear weapons or UFO's, but I also hold strong opinions on each of those subjects as well.

Anyhow, I thought I should at least say that I have read everyone's response, and it's not like I just ignored them. I posted what I truly felt because I was a bit more than a little tipsy at the time, and felt no reason NOT to post what I felt.

Normally, I would have said "This is a US problem and it needs a "Made in the USA" solution, and I have no business sticking my nose in their problems. But, like I say, I was a bit drunk and that took the shackles off my willingness to speak my mind. I truly do feel that guns are inherently dangerous and the right to own a fire arm should really be linked to the NEED to own a firearm. But, I fully recognize that your constitution recognizes no such requirement and basically prohibits your government from restricting you from owning as many guns as you want. That's your business, not mine.

I was a bit drunk when I posted that first post, so I said what was on my mind. Normally, I would have refrained from saying anything. Your business is not my business.

On Sun, 29 Sep 2013 10:06:35 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Sun, 29 Sep 2013 09:27:48 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

Exactly. He proved what we've been saying all along.
You could just as easily kill about the same number of
people with a shotgun as you could with a semi-automatic
rifle with a 30 round magazine. And for the record, I believe it was
just a single pistol that he got from one of the security
people he shot. He killed 12 people, most of them, maybe
all of them, with the shotgun.

I apologize to nestork. The 870 was sawed off.

"... purchased a Remington 870 shotgun and ammunition at a gun shop in
Northern Virginia. On the same day, Alexis also purchased a hacksaw,
among other items, at a home improvement store in Northern Virginia."

OMG! Ban hack saws!

"...The Remington 870 shotgun had been altered with a sawed-off barrel
and stock. Purple duct tape covered the end of the stock and
handwritten etchings were present on various parts of the shotgun.
Etched into the barrel of the shotgun were the words “End to the
torment!” Etched into the right side of the shotgun receiver were the
words “Not what yall say!” and etched into the left side of the
receiver were the phrases “Better off this way!” and “My ELF weapon!”

....AND duct tape!

"...There are multiple indicators that Alexis held a delusional belief
that he was being controlled or influenced by extremely low frequency
(ELF) electromagnetic waves. The etching of “My ELF weapon!” on the
left side of the receiver of the Remington 870 shotgun is believed to
reference these electromagnetic waves."

....AND Sharpies!

"... used the Remington 870 shotgun and a Beretta handgun he obtained
during the course of his shooting to kill 12 victims and wound four
surviving victims before he was shot and killed by law enforcement
officers."

http://www.fbi.gov/washingtondc/press-releases/2013/law-enforcement-shares-findings-of-the-investigation-into-the-washington-navy-yard-shootings

When I was growing up, crazy people went to the crazy house.

Now they go to the White House.

On Sun, 29 Sep 2013 09:33:10 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Sun, 29 Sep 2013 11:48:38 -0400, wrote:

OTOH, if it weren't children killed,
lefties wouldn't have their graves to dance on.

They are not interested in the children. They WANT to own the gun
debate.

Of course not. They're interested in the children's graves. You see
it here, every time there is such an incident. They revel in the
deaths of innocents.

On 9/29/2013 6:55 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 29 Sep 2013 10:06:35 -0700, Oren wrote:
"... purchased a Remington 870 shotgun and ammunition at a gun shop in
Northern Virginia. On the same day, Alexis also purchased a hacksaw,
among other items, at a home improvement store in Northern Virginia."

OMG! Ban hack saws!


When I was growing up, crazy people went to the crazy house.

Now they go to the White House.

Or, the Navy yard.

I'd support a waiting period on hacksaws, and a capacity
limit, only one blade per hacksaw.

Also limit the number of blades to purchase per 30 days.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Sun, 29 Sep 2013 11:45:30 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Sat, 28 Sep 2013 16:26:57 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 28 Sep 2013 11:06:46 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Sat, 28 Sep 2013 10:41:21 -0500, Dean Hoffman
" wrote:

On 9/28/13 10:29 AM, Oren wrote:
On Sat, 28 Sep 2013 07:15:30 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

At what point can anyone do something
about a loon, who should do it, how, etc.

Not much. After the Newtown shooting, PBS had a show on the mind of a
psychopath. Bottom line was that science still cannot figure them
out. Yet people still want to blame the gun.


How often do the neighbors express surprise that Joe, Fred, or Bob
could've done such a thing? It seems like that comment crops up in news
stories frequently.

Likely that people do not want to get involved, taking a passive
position? Joe, Fred, or Bob may say 'things', speak "words", but do
they 'hear" what was said or take action?

Or admit (perhaps to themselves) that they knew or should have known
that they should have done something. Think: spousal abuse.

Even in other things, folks really do not hear what the words meant.
For example; a guy at work (grouchy old man, always yelling at
convicts) would say things like "things will be better SOON". Two
guys in his department went to his house one day to have a few beers.
They found him hanging in a tree. Dead as a door nail.

Another guy I thought may have had mental problems, staff thought he
was just an asshole. Turns out he had a brain tumor.

One guy wrote a suicide note before he came to work. His wife found
the note and called the shift supervisor and reported it. His plan
was to use a government firearm to shoot himself on the job. His plan
was thwarted and he was "removed from service".

Point is, we need to "listen" and not just hear words.

Then again, the way the state handles reports of abuse, I'm not sure
I'd ever put anyone through it on just a suspicion.

On Sun, 29 Sep 2013 19:05:32 -0400, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 9/29/2013 6:55 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 29 Sep 2013 10:06:35 -0700, Oren wrote:
"... purchased a Remington 870 shotgun and ammunition at a gun shop in
Northern Virginia. On the same day, Alexis also purchased a hacksaw,
among other items, at a home improvement store in Northern Virginia."

OMG! Ban hack saws!


When I was growing up, crazy people went to the crazy house.

Now they go to the White House.

Or, the Navy yard.

The crazies don't live in the Navy Yard, though.

I'd support a waiting period on hacksaws, and a capacity
limit, only one blade per hacksaw.

No high-capacity handles? That's where I store all of my extra ammo.

Also limit the number of blades to purchase per 30 days.

What about a $5/blade tax?

On Sun, 29 Sep 2013 19:04:32 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 29 Sep 2013 09:33:10 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Sun, 29 Sep 2013 11:48:38 -0400, wrote:

OTOH, if it weren't children killed,
lefties wouldn't have their graves to dance on.

They are not interested in the children. They WANT to own the gun
debate.

Of course not. They're interested in the children's graves. You see
it here, every time there is such an incident. They revel in the
deaths of innocents.
'
Pay attention, They will change the narrative

In article ,
The Daring Dufas wrote:

But, but we can't put crazy, err, mentally challenged people in some
huge impersonal institution and fill them with anti-psychotic drugs.
That would be a violation of their human rights and it could be used by
the government to put away political opponents like they did back in the
old Soviet Union.
Actually, there IS a constitutional right (according to SCOTUS) to
refuse medication. I call it a Psychiatric Miranda Warning: "You have
the right to remain to crazy).
--
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late
to work within the system, but too early to shoot
the *******s."-- Claire Wolfe

On 9/30/2013 6:36 AM, Kurt Ullman wrote:
In article ,
The Daring Dufas wrote:

But, but we can't put crazy, err, mentally challenged people in some
huge impersonal institution and fill them with anti-psychotic drugs.
That would be a violation of their human rights and it could be used by
the government to put away political opponents like they did back in the
old Soviet Union.
Actually, there IS a constitutional right (according to SCOTUS) to
refuse medication. I call it a Psychiatric Miranda Warning: "You have
the right to remain to crazy).


I've been called crazy a lot and I admit it. The first step in solving a
problem is to admit there is one. ^_^

TDD

On Sunday, September 29, 2013 12:33:10 PM UTC-4, Oren wrote:
On Sun, 29 Sep 2013 11:48:38 -0400, wrote:



OTOH, if it weren't children killed,

lefties wouldn't have their graves to dance on.



They are not interested in the children. They WANT to own the gun

debate.



--

... our great nation is under attack by Termites; attacking the foundation - Democrat turned Republican, Louisiana Senator Elbert Guillory

Great nation needs to be shut down and we need to start executing the religious termites.

Bring the war home. God is a piece of tax sucking delusional ****

On Sunday, September 29, 2013 2:45:30 PM UTC-4, Oren wrote:
On Sat, 28 Sep 2013 16:26:57 -0400, wrote:



On Sat, 28 Sep 2013 11:06:46 -0700, Oren wrote:



On Sat, 28 Sep 2013 10:41:21 -0500, Dean Hoffman

" wrote:



On 9/28/13 10:29 AM, Oren wrote:

On Sat, 28 Sep 2013 07:15:30 -0700 (PDT), "

wrote:



At what point can anyone do something

about a loon, who should do it, how, etc.



Not much. After the Newtown shooting, PBS had a show on the mind of a

psychopath. Bottom line was that science still cannot figure them

out. Yet people still want to blame the gun.





How often do the neighbors express surprise that Joe, Fred, or Bob

could've done such a thing? It seems like that comment crops up in news

stories frequently.



Likely that people do not want to get involved, taking a passive

position? Joe, Fred, or Bob may say 'things', speak "words", but do

they 'hear" what was said or take action?



Or admit (perhaps to themselves) that they knew or should have known

that they should have done something. Think: spousal abuse.



Even in other things, folks really do not hear what the words meant.

For example; a guy at work (grouchy old man, always yelling at

convicts) would say things like "things will be better SOON". Two

guys in his department went to his house one day to have a few beers.

They found him hanging in a tree. Dead as a door nail.



Another guy I thought may have had mental problems, staff thought he

was just an asshole. Turns out he had a brain tumor.



One guy wrote a suicide note before he came to work. His wife found

the note and called the shift supervisor and reported it. His plan

was to use a government firearm to shoot himself on the job. His plan

was thwarted and he was "removed from service".



Point is, we need to "listen" and not just hear words.


Where do you work, the post office? You've seen more mental
cases then me. But there is an even bigger problem. At what
point does odd or inappropriate behavior rise to the level
that someone that sees it should do something about it from a
mental health standpoint and what exactly is it
that they should do? It think this is one where there is no
easy answer and just like with the NSA leaks, you'd find a
lot of libs and conservatives on the same side.

I someone is acting like a clear danger to himself of others,
then you call the police. But if someone is just acting weird
and you think they may have a mental problem, not sure what you
can do. For one thing, they are probably protected by the
Americans with Disabilities Act. And even if they go themselves
to a healthcare provider, again, unless that provider believes
they are a danger to themselves or others, I don't think they
can do a damn thing about it. So, someone like this shooter
shows up at a psychiatrist and tells them they hear voices.
I don't think standard practice is for the healthcare provider
to report them to anyone and it's probably illegal for them
to do so. And if you started some kind of reporting, checking
system, not sure where it would lead, the resources it would
consume, etc. There are a whole lot of people out there with some
kind of mental problem and the vast majority are harmless,
particularly to others.

And then you have the issue that if you had some mandatory
reporting system, it would discourage people from going to
get the help which could very well prevent that person from going
totally beserk.

On 9/30/13 7:34 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:


I've been called crazy a lot and I admit it. The first step in solving a
problem is to admit there is one. ^_^

TDD

I vaguely remember reading the book Catch 22. You ain't crazy.

On 9/30/2013 8:42 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 9/30/13 7:34 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:


I've been called crazy a lot and I admit it. The first step in solving a
problem is to admit there is one. ^_^

TDD

I vaguely remember reading the book Catch 22. You ain't crazy.

I was assigned that, when I was in college. I didn't like the book, the
teacher said that's rare, most college boys do. Anyhow, to be not crazy,
Dufas would have to request a transfer out.


..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 16:52:48 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

Where do you work, the post office? You've seen more mental
cases then me. But there is an even bigger problem. At what
point does odd or inappropriate behavior rise to the level
that someone that sees it should do something about it from a
mental health standpoint and what exactly is it
that they should do? It think this is one where there is no
easy answer and just like with the NSA leaks, you'd find a
lot of libs and conservatives on the same side.


Prisons have a bunch of crazy people inside. Some of them are
inmates. When a staff came to me saying he wanted to transfer to the
post office, I sat down and wrote him an Outstanding Performance
Evaluation. I think what one does is mostly a moral question.

I someone is acting like a clear danger to himself of others,
then you call the police. But if someone is just acting weird
and you think they may have a mental problem, not sure what you
can do. For one thing, they are probably protected by the
Americans with Disabilities Act. And even if they go themselves
to a healthcare provider, again, unless that provider believes
they are a danger to themselves or others, I don't think they
can do a damn thing about it. So, someone like this shooter
shows up at a psychiatrist and tells them they hear voices.
I don't think standard practice is for the healthcare provider
to report them to anyone and it's probably illegal for them
to do so. And if you started some kind of reporting, checking
system, not sure where it would lead, the resources it would
consume, etc. There are a whole lot of people out there with some
kind of mental problem and the vast majority are harmless,
particularly to others.

And then you have the issue that if you had some mandatory
reporting system, it would discourage people from going to
get the help which could very well prevent that person from going
totally beserk.

Much of what I've seen in people - mentally ill or just off kilter was
daily work. Most before the ADA, Convicts have a different approach.