Hi, I need some advice please. I am replacing the ceramic tile in the front hall way and I am going to extend it through the kitchen. The front hall way has tiles. The kitchen has laminate, that I believe was put on top of the original linoleum floor. The house was custom built in 1973.

The existing hallway tiles appear to be laid directly on the plywood. They lasted for 40 years, just starting to come loose in the last 5 years. I do not know what is under the linoleum, but I am assuming it is the same plywood.

The question is, judging from the fact that the original floor tiles were places directly on the plywood, can I not do the same with the new tiles and all through the kitchen? And avoid putting down cement board?

Also, it looks like glue rather than cement that was used for the old ceramic tiles? Would this be the case or is it simply because it is over 40 years old? If I do reuse the original plywood, does the old surface have to be completely smooth?

Sorry for all the questions....but there seems to be so many considerations to think about.

Thanks!
Jan

On Saturday, September 21, 2013 4:31:29 PM UTC-4, caledongrl wrote:
Hi, I need some advice please. I am replacing the ceramic tile in the front hall way and I am going to extend it through the kitchen. The front hall way has tiles. The kitchen has laminate, that I believe was put on top of the original linoleum floor. The house was custom built in 1973.



The existing hallway tiles appear to be laid directly on the plywood. They lasted for 40 years, just starting to come loose in the last 5 years. I do not know what is under the linoleum, but I am assuming it is the same plywood.



The question is, judging from the fact that the original floor tiles were places directly on the plywood, can I not do the same with the new tiles and all through the kitchen? And avoid putting down cement board?



I think the current best practice is to put cement board over
plywood. More importantly, there isn't just "plywood". It
depends on the thickness of the plywood, the joist spacing,
how structurally sound the whole system together is.
With tile, you can't tolerate very much movement. I would
definitely err on the side of making sure it's more than minimum,
because of the obvious consequences of getting it wrong.





Also, it looks like glue rather than cement that was used for the old ceramic tiles? Would this be the case or is it simply because it is over 40 years old? If I do reuse the original plywood, does the old surface have to be completely smooth?



I've never heard of glue being used with ceramic tile.

On Sat, 21 Sep 2013 13:58:15 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

I think the current best practice is to put cement board over
plywood. More importantly, there isn't just "plywood". It
depends on the thickness of the plywood, the joist spacing,
how structurally sound the whole system together is.
With tile, you can't tolerate very much movement. I would
definitely err on the side of making sure it's more than minimum,
because of the obvious consequences of getting it wrong.


I agree with trader about tile on plywood. Cement backer board (CBB)
is best installed perpendicular to the direction of the plywood. It
ads strength, which reduces flex in the flooring, making the less
susceptible to cracking or grout lines cracking.

3/8" CBB should suffice. Screw it down with quality screws.

BTDT.

"caledongrl" wrote in message

Hi, I need some advice please. I am replacing the ceramic
tile in the front hall way and I am going to extend it
through the kitchen. The front hall way has tiles. The
kitchen has laminate, that I believe was put on top of
the original linoleum floor. The house was custom built
in 1973.

The existing hallway tiles appear to be laid directly on
the plywood. They lasted for 40 years, just starting to
come loose in the last 5 years. I do not know what is
under the linoleum, but I am assuming it is the same
plywood.

The question is, judging from the fact that the original
floor tiles were places directly on the plywood, can I
not do the same with the new tiles and all through the
kitchen? And avoid putting down cement board?

Also, it looks like glue rather than cement that was used
for the old ceramic tiles? Would this be the case or is
it simply because it is over 40 years old? If I do reuse
the original plywood, does the old surface have to be
completely smooth?

Sorry for all the questions....but there seems to be so
many considerations to think about.

Yes, you can put tile directly on the plywood. You would lay them with a
mastic made for the purpose; it looks similar to linoleum paste. Regarding
the ply surface, "completely smooth" is subjective...it needs to be smooth
enough so that the tiles will wind up at the same heights.

The big advantage of cement backer board in my mind is that one can lay tile
with thinset. That's an advantage, IMO. If you are worried about increased
thickness, backer board comes in 1/4" as well as 1/2". If you decide to use
it, be aware that there are special screws made for it; there are a couple
of little nibs under the head that cut the countersink for the head as you
drive them.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On Saturday, September 21, 2013 4:31:29 PM UTC-4, caledongrl wrote:
Hi, I need some advice please. I am replacing the ceramic tile in the front hall way and I am going to extend it through the kitchen. The front hall way has tiles. The kitchen has laminate, that I believe was put on top of the original linoleum floor. The house was custom built in 1973.



The existing hallway tiles appear to be laid directly on the plywood. They lasted for 40 years, just starting to come loose in the last 5 years. I do not know what is under the linoleum, but I am assuming it is the same plywood.



The question is, judging from the fact that the original floor tiles were places directly on the plywood, can I not do the same with the new tiles and all through the kitchen? And avoid putting down cement board?



Also, it looks like glue rather than cement that was used for the old ceramic tiles? Would this be the case or is it simply because it is over 40 years old? If I do reuse the original plywood, does the old surface have to be completely smooth?



Sorry for all the questions....but there seems to be so many considerations to think about.



Thanks!

Jan

Properly done tile will stay down until you tear the house down. You should put down backer board and use thinset. If you're going to do it, do it right.

Jan:

For some reason, this computer won't let me enter a post that's any longer than a few dozen lines, so I may have to submit several posts to answer each of your questoins.

1. It's always a bad idea to install ceramic tile directly over wood of any kind, including plywood. The reason is that wood is a natural material and swells and shrinks with changes in it's moisture content caused by changes in temperature and humidity. Ceramic tiling simply doesn't have the elasticity to accomodate such dimensional changes in the wood substrate, and so ceramic tile set directly on wood will often develop cracks in the grout lines and tiles popping loose.

Yes, there are some thin sets that allow you to tile directly over wood, but these thin sets have a lot of powdered glue added to them which both makes the thin set stick better, but also makes it dry to a more flexible and elastic cementatious material. The whole idea here is to make a thin set that will accomodate more flexing of the substrate, but along better flexibility comes better elasticity. Such thin sets will have "racing stripe" names like "Super Ultra Flex XL".

Mastics are inherantly more flexable and elastic than thin sets, but I don't know of any elastic grout that's recommended for use over wood. So, even if you can get a thin set or a mastic to stick the tiles down to plywood, I know of no grout that can be used over plywood without cracking if the plywood decides it wants to expand.

Lemme address some other points in the next post.

Cement board is not added to increase the strength of the floor. There are different kinds of tile backer boards for setting tile on, but the more common ones like Wonderboard and Durock are far too flexible to add any strength to the floor. They'll both add weight to the floor, but very little additional strength.

What ALL proper tile backer boards have in common is dimensional stability. They don't swell or shrink with changes in temperature or moisture content, or they swell or shrink just as little as the ceramic tiling with temperature changes.

The whole idea behind putting a dimensionally stable layer (the cement board) down over a wooden or plywood floor before setting tile is to ensure that any expansion of the wood doesn't cause tension in the ceramic tiling. Cementatious materials like thin set and grout and bricks and concrete blocks are extremely strong in compression, but very weak in tension. So, you can put the whole weight of a car on top of a concrete block PROVIDED the block is standing upright the way it normally would in a wall. If you stand the concrete block on it's end, and put the weight of the car's rear axle on the "web" of the block, the bottom of that web is now in tension and you're risking your life if you crawl under that car. Similarily, grout and thin set are much more likely to crack if they're in tension (caused by the wood substate is wanting to expand) than if there's a compressive force on them.

By putting a dimensionally stable layer between the wood and the ceramic tiling, the ceramic tiling doesn't feel any tension. That's because the pulling of the wood is opposed by the cement board that doesn't want to shrink, and so the ceramic tiling doesn't feel any tension or compression from the wood.

The effect is the same as standing on the fault line the day before the quake. There can be tremendous stresses in the rock a mile under your feet, but since the ground you're standing on isn't moving, you're completely unaware of any such stresses. So, you have no reason to want to crack.

It's the same with ceramic tile. If it's set on a material that won't expand or shrink for any reason, that material won't put any tension on the ceramic tiling, so there's no reason for the tiling grout lines to crack.

Jan:

If you don't want to use cement board, then use Schluter "Ditra". It's more expensive than cement board, but it saves you a lot of hard work.

Schluter is a company that specializes in accessories for the ceramic tiling industry. One of the products they make, called "Ditra", is an orange plastic mat that effectively replaces cement board, but works in a completely different way.

The Ditra is stuck down to plywood, and then the ceramic floor tiles are set directly over the Ditra. The shape of the Ditra matting allows the plywood to swell and shrink without that movement putting any stresses on the ceramic tiling.

Schluter-DITRA - Schluter-Systems

Note that Ditra works differently than cement board, but the purpose of both is the same; to prevent any movement of the wood substrate from putting tension on the ceramic tiling. Cement board is dimensionally stable, and so even if the plywood wants to expand, the screws holding the cement board down bend a bit, and the holes in the wood the screws are in stretch a bit, and together they accomodate the wood movement without the cement board stretching or shrinking.

With Ditra, the bottom of the Ditra mat stretches and shrinks with the wood, but the top of the Ditra mat doesn't move, thereby allowing wood movement but still preventing any stresses in the ceramic tiling.

Ditra is a very commonly used product whenever ceramic tiling is installed over any kind of wooden flooring.

You don't need to use any kind of cement board or Ditra mat when tiling over a dimensionally stable material like concrete or old ceramic tile.

In your case, no matter what you do, I would NAIL down a thin material like 5/16 inch underlayment over your cleaned plywood before you do anything. That way, in future, if you ever want to remove the tiling you install, you're not fighing with getting old thin set off of your plywood. You can just take a pry bar and pry up the 5/16 inch underlayment, and any Ditra and tiling on top of that underlayment will come up with it.

I'm concerned that the tiling in your hallway was installed by someone who didn't know any more or have any more experience tiling than you do, and that you may now be stuck trying to remove mastic from your plywood kitchen floor.

You will find that tile mastic is a very tough material that sticks tenaciously, and it will be hard to remove from plywood.

To do it, you need to heat the mastic so that it's soft, and then scrape it off with a tool that's sharp enough to scrape effectively, but not so sharp that it gouges the wood like a razor blade would.

The Milwaukee Model #8978 has an electronic heat control with about a dozen heat settings. This allows you to use the highest heat setting that doesn't scorch your plywood. The reason I like my #8978 is that it's light enough to be held in one hand all day long without getting sore wrists, and it throws as much heat as any other electric heat gun if you turn the heat setting all the way up. Any place that sells Milwaukee tools will either carry this heat gun (or it's current equivalent), or be able to order it for you.

http://a248.e.akamai.net/origin-cdn....jpg?1357559458

The A. Richard Company sells something called a "Lever Bar" which you can buy at any hardware store or home center:

A Richard : Products List

This "Lever Bar" is more correctly called a "Bee Keeper's Bar" because bee keepers used them for scraping the wax and honey off of honeycombs long before they started showing up in hardware stores. Look in your yellow pages under "Apiary Supplies" or "Bee Keeping Supplies" and ask if any of the places listed there sell Bee Keeper's Bars. If so, you'll find that they come in three different styles; the large and small versions of the regular bar, as shown on the Richard web site above, and a different style of bar that has a blade at the front and at it's side as well.

Try to get the smaller 7 1/2 inch bar because it'll be sharper than the 10 inch bar, but still not sharp enough to gouge plywood, or at least that's been my experience.

Also, if you can't remove the mastic by simply replacing that plywood, then you're going to be doing a LOT of scraping, so it'd be a good idea to have a second kind of scraping tool. The bee keeper's bar scrapes when you push it. A paint scraper scrapes when you pull it. Get a paint scraper that uses a carbide blade and is all metal construction at the front of the scraper to take the heat. Lee Valley sells these paint scrapers and they should work well for this application.

Carbide-Tipped Scrapers - Lee Valley Tools

Heat guns throw a lot of heat, so you also need to buy a pair of leather work gloves to protect your hands from the hot tools you'll be using.

On Saturday, September 21, 2013 1:31:29 PM UTC-7, caledongrl wrote:
Hi, I need some advice please. I am replacing the ceramic tile in the front hall way and I am going to extend it through the kitchen. The front hall way has tiles. The kitchen has laminate, that I believe was put on top of the original linoleum floor. The house was custom built in 1973.



The existing hallway tiles appear to be laid directly on the plywood. They lasted for 40 years, just starting to come loose in the last 5 years. I do not know what is under the linoleum, but I am assuming it is the same plywood.



The question is, judging from the fact that the original floor tiles were places directly on the plywood, can I not do the same with the new tiles and all through the kitchen? And avoid putting down cement board?



Also, it looks like glue rather than cement that was used for the old ceramic tiles? Would this be the case or is it simply because it is over 40 years old? If I do reuse the original plywood, does the old surface have to be completely smooth?



Sorry for all the questions....but there seems to be so many considerations to think about.



Thanks!

Jan

That glue is probably something called Black Magic. It used to be made of old rubber tires. It was great for everything and lasted almost forever. Unfortunately they no longer make. You can thank your meddling government environmental ninnies for that.

Sorry.

On that A. Richard web page, you can find the Lever Bars under "Industrial Hand Tools" in their "Find A Tool" drop down menu. Your local Apiary Supply place will sell both the smaller and larger versions of this bar as well as that third style with the scraping edges both on the front and side of the bar.

On 9/25/2013 9:01 PM, nestork wrote:
Jan:

For some reason, this computer won't let me enter a post that's any
longer than a few dozen lines, so I may have to submit several posts to
answer each of your questoins.

1. It's always a bad idea to install ceramic tile directly over wood of
any kind, including plywood. The reason is that wood is a natural
material and swells and shrinks with changes in it's moisture content
caused by changes in temperature and humidity. Ceramic tile simply
doesn't have the elasticity to accomodate such dimensional changes in
the wood substrate, and so ceramic tile set directly on wood will often
have cracked grout lines and tiles popping loose.

Lemme address some other points in the next post.





it will last if you use mastic rather than thinset.